Substitutionalism-The Twisting and Distorting of The Apostle Paul

[ImAHebrew]

Shabbat Shalom Everyone, I would like to start this Thread with something that I have just sent to Hyssop. He is in an encounter with someone that he is trying to convince that their understanding of Paul is not correct with their belief of "substitutionalism." Most take The Apostle Paul's words and twist/distort them into a FALSE gospel, believing that "God" required "Jesus" to suffer and die in their place, thus satisfying the penalty of their sin. The following should show that Elohim is not in the business of accepting the murder and death of the Innocent or Righteous, in the place of the wicked. It is an abomination for the Innocent and Righteous to suffer in the stead or place of the wicked.

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Hi Ken, here are some scriptures I use against substitutionalism. The gist of what they say is that Elohim has a Justice Standard, and in it, you do not punish the Innocent and Righteous in the place of the Wicked. It is AN Abomination to do so...to let the Righteous One suffer through the actions of the Unrighteous. Yeshua, being placed UPON the Cross, was made to STAND where He ought NOT, and this IS The Abomination of Desolation. To look at His suffering and death as some kind of means to satisfy Elohim's Justice, is delusional, and against The Scriptures:

Gen_18:23-25
(23) And Abraham drew near (to Yahweh) and said, Is it so? Will You cut off the righteous with the wicked?
(24) Perhaps there are fifty righteous within the city; is it so You will cut off and will not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones that are within it?
(25) Far be it from You to act in this way, to put to death the righteous with the wicked. Far be it from You. The Judge of all the earth, shall He not do right?

Deu_19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which Yahweh they Elohim giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Deu_27:25 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Pro_17:26 It is not right to punish a righteous man, nor is it holy to plot against righteous princes.

Exo_23:7 You shall keep far away from a false matter. And do not kill the Innocent and the Righteous; for I will not justify the wicked.

Pro_17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the Righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to Yahweh.

Deu_25:1 "If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they shall justify the righteous and condemn the wicked,

Pro_6:16 These six things doth Yahweh hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto Him:
Pro_6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

What Judas did and ALL sinners do is ABOMINABLE (Hand Yeshua over to suffer on the Cross and shed His Blood-Hebrews 6:6), and when we "see" this abomination, we are to repent, and FLEE from our sin):

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the Innocent Blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Pro_11:1 A false balance is abomination to Yahweh: but a just weight is His delight.

Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto Yahweh; and a false balance is not good.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand (The writer of Hebrews states the "holy place" is a symbol of this present age-Hebrews 9:8-9, so when Yeshua was LIFTED UP, and made to stand in the holy place/present age/outer tent, this is a place (on the Cross) where He should not have been made to stand-Mark 13:14).

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (And just what do those Mountains represent that we are to FLEE to-Psa 36:6 Thy righteousness is like the great mountains... Are we not to FLEE from our sin unto Elohim's RIGHTEOUSNESS when we SEE what our sin did to Yeshua...placed Him upon the Cross?

Luk 16:15 And He said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but Elohim knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men ("Jesus" supposedly dying in their stead) is abomination in the sight of Elohim.

Isa_53:8-10
(8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
(9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
(10) Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Yahweh shall prosper in his hand. (These verses are used by substitutionalist to prove that Elohim's justice requires the innocent to suffer and die in the place of the wicked, and this is not how these Scriptures should be interpreted. Yahweh decided to allow Himself to suffer and die, so that sinners would be TURNED from ALL of their iniquities-Acts 3:26, by Him being made to into a sin offering. Elohim's PLAN is to REDEEM us OUT from sin, not to save us as we remain IN sin.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (The sinner is to die, not the Sinless One, according to Yahweh, especially not the Son for the sin of the father, or vice versa).

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken

[ImAHebrew]

The most DEVASTATING event in the history of mankind?

Shalom Everyone, what do you think is the most devastating event that has ever occurred in the history of mankind? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken

[Eliyah]

Shalom Everyone, what do you think is the most devastating event that has ever occurred in the history of mankind? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken

Messiah put on the cross.

Yea, there are Substitutionalism doctrines, and one is that Messiah fulfilled the law in THEIR STEAD, so THEY don't have too.

[ImAHebrew]

To be sure.

Messiah put on the cross.

Yea, there are Substitutionalism doctrines, and one is that Messiah fulfilled the law in THEIR STEAD, so THEY don't have too.

Shalom Eliyahu, to be sure, it was the event of the Cross. Do you understand the total and complete desolation which occurred with that abominable event? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

P.S. And yes, Satan's greatest lie is that sinners can have "Jesus" die in their stead, so that after they die, they can then live at peace with Elohim, in their disobedience:

Isa 48:22
(22) There is no peace, saith Yahweh, unto the wicked.

[Eliyah]

Shalom Eliyahu, to be sure, it was the event of the Cross. Do you understand the total and complete desolation which occurred with that abominable event? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken. Well, you have already begun explaining that, and I'm sure you will let us hear the whole matter.

P.S. And yes, Satan's greatest lie is that sinners can have "Jesus" die in their stead, so that after they die, they can then live at peace with Elohim, in their disobedience: True, and there are also those who think that the first death ruled over Messiah until the 3rd day, in their stead, so that sickness, or even the first death cannot rule over them too huh?

Isa 48:22
(22) There is no peace, saith Yahweh, unto the wicked.

Yea, there are several in your stead doctrines.

[ImAHebrew]

All DIED.

Yea, there are several in your stead doctrines.

Shalom Eliyahu, yes there are, especially the one that teaches it was all fulfilled, and nothing further needs accomplishing. If that is the case, why did they replace Judas?

Going on to your statement about me discussing the whole matter in speaking about the desolation. Yes, when Messiah died, ALL died, and no greater desolation can occur than the death of all. Doesn't that teach against substitutionalism? If ALL died, how did He die in the stead of anyone? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

[Eliyah]

Shalom Eliyahu, yes there are, especially the one that teaches it was all fulfilled, and nothing further needs accomplishing. If that is the case, why did they replace Judas?

Going on to your statement about me discussing the whole matter in speaking about the desolation. Yes, when Messiah died, ALL died, and no greater desolation can occur than the death of all. Doesn't that teach against substitutionalism? If ALL died, how did He die in the stead of anyone? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

That is true, but as I have said, Well, you have already begun explaining that, and I'm sure you will let us hear the whole matter.

[ImAHebrew]

Insight?

That is true, but as I have said, Well, you have already begun explaining that, and I'm sure you will let us hear the whole matter.

Shalom Eliyahu, the whole matter is that one must have insight into what Yeshua said concerning that He was to be "lifted up" (signifying the type of death He would endure-The Cross), and that He would DRAW all MEN unto Himself in that "lifting up." (John 12:32-33)(Yeshua being made to STAND-Lifted up, where He ought not.)

EVERYONE was drawn INTO His Death, so that when He died, ALL died, and now we no longer view anyone as LIVING-all are dead. (2 Cor 5:14-17) Everyone has died when He died (utter desolation), and it is a fulfillment of the Law for all the dead to be baptized, or better put, to be baptized on account of the dead (Num 19:13,19 & 1 Cor 15:29), and this is why the Gospel is preached, so that the dead can be baptized, and come to LIFE in Him...why else be baptized, if there is no resurrection?. Do you understand the desolation, that ALL died this way? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

[Eliyah]

Shalom Eliyahu, the whole matter is that one must have insight into what Yeshua said concerning that He was to be "lifted up" (signifying the type of death He would endure-The Cross), and that He would DRAW all MEN unto Himself in that "lifting up." (John 12:32-33)(Yeshua being made to STAND-Lifted up, where He ought not.)

EVERYONE was drawn INTO His Death, so that when He died, ALL died, and now we no longer view anyone as LIVING-all are dead. (2 Cor 5:14-17) Everyone has died when He died (utter desolation), and it is a fulfillment of the Law for all the dead to be baptized, or better put, to be baptized on account of the dead (Num 19:13,19 & 1 Cor 15:29), and this is why the Gospel is preached, so that the dead can be baptized, and come to LIFE in Him...why else be baptized, if there is no resurrection?. Do you understand the desolation, that ALL died this way? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

Yes indeed, and this also ties into, where Yah's Holy Spirit gives life to our spirit, because Paul says this below.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Messiah after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 16

And let us not forget this, that Paul said in the beginning of this chapter:

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our flesh bodies) were dissolved, we have a building of Elohim, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this (earthly house=body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle(our bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is Elohim, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Cor.5:1-5.

[Eliyah]

Yes indeed, and this also ties into, where Yah's Holy Spirit gives life to our spirit, because Paul says this below.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Messiah after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 16

And let us not forget this, that Paul said in the beginning of this chapter:

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our flesh bodies) were dissolved, we have a building of Elohim, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this (earthly house=body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle(our bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is Elohim, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Cor.5:1-5.

Messiah said:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Ghenna Fire Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5.

Fear Who and what? The first death? No, Fear YAHWEH ELOHIM, and the second death.

[ImAHebrew]

New Bodies

Yes indeed, and this also ties into, where Yah's Holy Spirit gives life to our spirit, because Paul says this below.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Messiah after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 16

And let us not forget this, that Paul said in the beginning of this chapter:

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our flesh bodies) were dissolved, we have a building of Elohim, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this (earthly house=body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle(our bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is Elohim, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Cor.5:1-5.

Messiah said:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Ghenna Fire Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5.

Fear Who and what? The first death? No, Fear YAHWEH ELOHIM, and the second death.

Shalom Eliyahu, to be sure, we can look forward to having new bodies, and these old bodies have weaknesses, but you know what, Messiah Yeshua and His Spirit has given us a little deposit while we are in these old bodies, which guarantees those new bodies. I wonder what that could be? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

[Eliyah]

Ken,

Shalom Eliyahu, to be sure, we can look forward to having new bodies, and these old bodies have weaknesses, but you know what, Messiah Yeshua and His Spirit has given us a little deposit while we are in these old bodies, which guarantees those new bodies. I wonder what that could be? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

This is not exactly as Paul is saying here, For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our flesh bodies) were dissolved,Did Paul mean, these earthly bodies will never be dissolved, and that we will never get sick, suffer pain in these flesh bodies, and eventually be dissolved?

Or did Messiah and Paul say this in vain-for nothing?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. John 12:24.

Is this above NOT what happened to Messiah?

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:...It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor.15.

And to answer your question:

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Gal.6:8.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is Elohim, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Cor.5:5.

Does Messiah not promise the same?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16; See also John 6.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (our flesh bodies) were dissolved, we have a building of Elohim, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this (earthly house=body) we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle(our bodies) do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor.5:5.

Now, you seem to look at this verse from a fleshy human side of thinking, however, there are 3 things that you should note in this verse, from a spiritual side of thinking.

1. For the destruction of the flesh.

2. That the spirit may be saved.

3. When? In the day of Messiah.

Now why is Paul always talking about putting to death the flesh, if the Spirit gives life to the flesh, and not to our spirit?

Also, which one is saved, the physical flesh outer man, or the spiritual inner man?

[Eliyah]

Now, since you also brought up John 12 above:

The apostle Paul said:

The (Holy)Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of Elohim: And if children, then heirs; heirs of Elohim, and joint-heirs with Messiah; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together....And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:16, 23.

Paul also asked:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24.

So, what is redeemed or delivered from this flesh body of death? Is it not our inner spiritual man?

[Eliyah]

Now, since you also brought up John 12 above:

The apostle Paul said:

The (Holy)Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of Elohim: And if children, then heirs; heirs of Elohim, and joint-heirs with Messiah; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together....And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:16, 23.

Paul also asked:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24.

Old friend, the flesh body, is a body of death, and if anyone thinks it's not, look in the mirror every few years.

So, what is redeemed or delivered from this flesh body of death? Is it not our inner spiritual man?

It is Yah's Holy Spirit that gives eternal life to our spirit, Romans 8:2; Rev.11:11, and the scriptures are concerned with our inner spiritual man, and not with our outer flesh man. Matt.10:28; Luke 12:5.

[Eliyah]

Now, since you also brought up John 12 above:

The apostle Paul said:

The (Holy)Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of Elohim: And if children, then heirs; heirs of Elohim, and joint-heirs with Messiah; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together....And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:16, 23.

Paul also asked:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans 7:24.

Old friend, the flesh body, is a body of death, and if anyone thinks it's not, look in the mirror every few years.

So, what is redeemed or delivered from this flesh body of death? Is it not our inner spiritual man?

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63.

The flesh profits nothing, and Paul does indeed teach the same.

It is Yah's Holy Spirit that gives eternal life to our spirit, Romans 8:2; Rev.11:11, and the scriptures are concerned with our inner spiritual man, and not with our outer flesh man. Matt.10:28; Luke 12:5.