Truthseekers.com

[Eliyah]

I'm going to point out some errors and assumptions this website has made in reference to Peter and Paul, and you the reader can go to this website to verify exactly what they have written. As with all religious articles, there is some truth mixed with error.

First this quote:

Whenever Paul is called into question, someone inevitably brings up Peter and what he said about Paul's letters that supposedly refers to them as Scripture. This is assuming that the book of 2Peter is authentic. * (see footnote at end of chapter) I give the book the benefit of the doubt. The passage reads:

This is assuming that the book of 2Peter is authentic. * (see footnote at end of chapter) I give the book the benefit of the doubt.

If you gave it the benefit of a doubt, then WHY did YOU not quote Peter in the preceding verses, and in its entirety, and in Peter's full context??????

Second:

"…and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2Peter 3:15,16 NKJV

Notice this person leaves out the preceding verses of Peter including Paul among them, and Paul is included as us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour 2 Peter 3:2.
Why would this person leave OUT Peter saying this, and also leave out the very verse that Peter quotes of Paul???

Peter said this of Paul:As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; 2 Peter 3:16.

Now, notice this by Peter: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; 2 Peter 3:10.

Which epistle of Paul did Peter quote this from?

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1 Thess.5:2.

Now, you can see WHY this person MUST throw away this entire Chapter of 2 Peter 3, because Peter endorses Paul's writings, and Peter even quotes from Paul's epistle.

http://www.truthseekers.co.za/articles/section-1/item/31-did-peter-endorse-paul

[Eliyah]

This person also said this below TWICE:

Peter is still being bound by this passage and taken where he does not want to go... in support of Paul, against the law!

Scroll toward the bottom of the article.

http://www.truthseekers.co.za/articles/section-1/item/31-did-peter-endorse-paul

Was Paul really against the Law of Elohim??

Paul said: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31.

Paul also said: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14.

Paul also said: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12.

However, the best clinching proof that Paul did indeed obey and serve the law of Elohim, is in his own words in these verses below.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:22, 25.

Now, I want to see these people produce a text of Paul saying otherwise.

[Eliyah]

The Laws Paul Mentions.

Paul wrote:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:22, 25.

Paul is speaking of 2 different "laws" here in this text.

1 law is the law of God.

2nd law is the law of sin

Now notice this statement by Paul:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2.

Notice how this ]For the law of the Spirit go with the law of God.

Now notice how the 2 law goes together: the law of sin and death with the law of sin.

What is this "law of sin and death"??

This is in reference to Genesis 2:17.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They broke the law of Elohim.

Now we can understand what Paul meant when he made this statement below:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (of sin and death), but under grace. Romans 6:14.

If people do NOT distinguish between these different "laws" that Paul spoke about, they will end up thinking of the wrong "law" being spoken about.

This is only part of the confusion that has led to nearly 4,000 different denominational beliefs about Paul's writings, and true enough as Peter said of Paul's writings is very difficult for the unlearned to twist his writings to their own destruction.



.

[Spying]

The Law of ELOHIM Is Both LIFE And DEATH!

Hi EliYah,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

I appreciate this type of study. It can generally be stated that whenever the Apostle Paul uses the definite article with law (nomos) that Paul is referring to the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant. I say generally because exceptions may exist. Please be aware that the Greek does not have or make use of the indefinite article (a or an) like the English does do.

Let's take a look at the beginning verses of the Eight Chapter of Romans paying close attention to the definite articles found in those verses. I have underlined the definite articles that exist in the Greek text and removed the definite articles which are not found in the Greek text:

Romans 8:1-13

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yahushua, who walk not after flesh, but after Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of the life in Messiah Yahushua hath made me free from the law of the sin and the death. (Moses taught that the Law was both life and death [Deuteronomy 30:15 & 19] so both laws in this verse refer to the Law of Moses.)
3 For the weakness of the law, in that it was made weak through the flesh, the ELOHIM sending the Son of HIMSELF in likeness of sinful flesh, and with respect to sin, condemned the sin in the flesh: (The Law of the life was weakened by our flesh. For this reason Yahushua was sent to strengthen the ability of the Law to give us life by involving all sinners in the spiritual fulfillment of the Law. Of course, this involvement in no uncertain terms condemns our sinful flesh.)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after flesh, but after Spirit.
5 For they that are after flesh do mind things of the flesh; but they that are after Spirit, things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against ELOHIM: for it is not subject to the law of the ELOHIM, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please ELOHIM.
9 But ye are not in flesh, but in Spirit, if so be that Spirit of ELOHIM dwell in you. Now if any man have not Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.
10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Even though our physical bodies are dead through the Law of the sin and the death, LIFE NOW is possible for Believers because we now have the opportunity to choose LIFE for ourselves through the gracious gift of righteousness which gives us the right to life according to the faith of Messiah Yahushua having been put into action.)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up the Yahushua from dead dwell in you, he that raised up the Messiah from dead shall also quicken the mortal bodies of you by the Spirit of HIM that dwelleth in you. (EliYah, our mortal bodies can be quickened right now in this our physical existence on this earth.)
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, of the life after flesh. (Believers must not live by bread alone, but by every word!)
13 For if ye live after flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (LIFE NOW is rather simple. Kill the sin in your present life through belief in your death through the death of Yahushua and you, having died to your sin, will continue to live).

This is the Gospel teaching of the Apostle Paul, and this teaching is in complete agreement with the Gospel teaching of Messiah Yahushua.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

[Eliyah]

Shabbat shalom Spying, my response is in teal.

Spying, I really don't mean to fight against you either.

Hi EliYah,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

I appreciate this type of study. It can generally be stated that whenever the Apostle Paul uses the definite article with law (nomos) that Paul is referring to the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant. I say generally because exceptions may exist. Please be aware that the Greek does not have or make use of the indefinite article (a or an) like the English does do.

Let's take a look at the beginning verses of the Eight Chapter of Romans paying close attention to the definite articles found in those verses. I have underlined the definite articles that exist in the Greek text and removed the definite articles which are not found in the Greek text: EC. I'm well aware of this, however, it does not change Paul's meaning in these texts. Did I not say they broke the law of Elohim above? Now, I know there is something here that YOU do not completely understand either. As these verses below prove that Paul taught in the spirit of the law, and not the letter of the law see Romans 7:6; 2 Cor.3:6. Paul is indeed speaking of not only a physical law which was broken, but also of a spiritual law, and this "law" is as certain as the law of gravity and the laws of aerodynamics, that man has discovered in the 18th and 19th centuries, and yes this "law" is indeed mentioned in "the law of Elohim".

Romans 8:1-13

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yahushua, who walk not after flesh, but after Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of the life in Messiah Yahushua hath made me free from the law of the sin and the death. (Moses taught that the Law was both life and death [Deuteronomy 30:15 & 19] so both laws in this verse refer to the Law of Moses.)
3 For the weakness of the law, in that it was made weak through the flesh, the ELOHIM sending the Son of HIMSELF in likeness of sinful flesh, and with respect to sin, condemned the sin in the flesh: (The Law of the life was weakened by our flesh. For this reason Yahushua was sent to strengthen the ability of the Law to give us life by involving all sinners in the spiritual fulfillment of the Law. Of course, this involvement in no uncertain terms condemns our sinful flesh.)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after flesh, but after Spirit.
5 For they that are after flesh do mind things of the flesh; but they that are after Spirit, things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against ELOHIM: for it is not subject to the law of the ELOHIM, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please ELOHIM.
9 But ye are not in flesh, but in Spirit, if so be that Spirit of ELOHIM dwell in you. Now if any man have not Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.
10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Even though our physical bodies are dead through the Law of the sin and the death, LIFE NOW is possible for Believers because we now have the opportunity to choose LIFE for ourselves through the gracious gift of righteousness which gives us the right to life according to the faith of Messiah Yahushua having been put into action.)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up the Yahushua from dead dwell in you, he that raised up the Messiah from dead shall also quicken the mortal bodies of you by the Spirit of HIM that dwelleth in you. (EliYah, our mortal bodies can be quickened right now in this our physical existence on this earth.)
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, of the life after flesh. (Believers must not live by bread alone, but by every word!)
13 For if ye live after flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (LIFE NOW is rather simple. Kill the sin in your present life through belief in your death through the death of Yahushua and you, having died to your sin, will continue to live).EC So, to YOU, is Paul saying here above, that the first century believers have lived for 1,900 years?? Is Paul saying, they will not die the first death??

Spying, I think this is precisely what you said before:

The mystery enters this picture because the Apostle Paul indicates that not all of the first century Believers would physically die. Some of them are still alive presently.

Then, let me ask this question in this way: IF a man or woman truly believes they will NOT die from jumping out of a 10 story building window, will that "belief" prevent them from jumping to their first death??

This is the Gospel teaching of the Apostle Paul, and this teaching is in complete agreement with the Gospel teaching of Messiah Yahushua. My friend, YOU have NOT proven this, and you have NOT disproved my scriptures given in THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY thread either. Messiah said: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Messiah also said:He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev.2:11.

Show me where Messiah said: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the FIRST DEATH??

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev. 20:6.

The scriptures is not worried about THE FIRST DEATH, because ALL will be resurrected from the first death, however, there is no resurrection from THE SECOND DEATH!

[Eliyah]

Here is the scriptures for For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.:But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor.15:22-26.

[Eliyah]

John wrote:And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Elohim; and the books( THE BIBLE) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books( THE BIBLE), according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.

This is not to scare anyone, it is the plain truth of the scriptures, and it is ONLY what I teach.

[Eliyah]

I might add.

For those out there who THINK Paul was false?? There is no way for Paul to have known this, and the same as the apostle John wrote, except Messiah Himself had taught Paul this, don't you think???

[Spying]

The Grace Of Righteousness And The Gift Of Death!

Hi EliYah,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Your response to me included these words:

"EC. I'm well aware of this, however, it does not change Paul's meaning in these texts. Did I not say they broke the law of Elohim above?"

You clearly make mention of two different laws right here in your post # 3:

"Paul wrote:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of ELOHIM; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:22, 25.

Paul is speaking of 2 different "laws" here in this text.

1 law is the law of God.

2nd law is the law of sin

Now notice this statement by Paul:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2.

Notice how this ]For the law of the Spirit go with the law of God.

Now notice how the 2 law goes together: the law of sin and death with the law of sin.

What is this "law of sin and death"??

If you follow Paul's use of the definite articles with nomos, and if you follow his reasoning in context, you cannot help but understand that Paul is speaking of the same Law applied in two ways, that is, the Law of life as opposed to the Law of death, obedience as opposed to disobedience, and this is exactly how Moses does speak of his Law as I wrote above to you.

Adam and Eve in Genesis had no opportunity to break "the Law of ELOHIM" because that Law came through Moses much later. They did break a law of ELOHIM. They were told not to eat of the Tree, and they sinned by disobeying this law of ELOHIM, but that law was not the Law of the sin and the death concerning which Paul writes in Romans 7 & 8.

Paul's language in Romans 7 does speak of another or different law, but this Law is not the Law of the spirit of the life nor is it the law of the sin and the death both of which are found in the Law of ELOHIM as given through Moses. Rather, that law is a spirit of disobedience that exists in our flesh simply because we are sentient or soulish beings (see Jude 1:19). Let's examine Romans 7:21-25:

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of ELOHIM after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Notice that this other law brings us into captivity to the Law of sin.)
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (That is, our soulish, sentient nature?)
25 I thank ELOHIM through Yahushua Messiah the YAHWEH of us. So then with the mind I myself serve a law of God; but with the flesh a law of sin. (Believers do have deliverance through Yahushua Messiah.)

It is extremely important to understand that Believers have been delivered from the law (the another law) that makes us captive to the Law of sin through the work of Messiah Yahushua. If this is not understood, then someone like Lucy can look upon the Law of ELOHIM as being at fault for our disobedience. Someone like Lucy can say that the Law is evil. The Law of sin is not the problem. The Law is part of the solution, and in the hands of Messiah Yahushua the Law of the sin and the death becomes the grace of righteousness and the gift of death for the sentient or carnal man which we once were before our conversion. It is precisely through this grace and gift that anyone like myself can begin to claim LIFE NOW.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

[Eliyah]

Spying, my responses is in teal.

Hi EliYah,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Your response to me included these words:

"EC. I'm well aware of this, however, it does not change Paul's meaning in these texts. Did I not say they broke the law of Elohim above?"

You clearly make mention of two different laws right here in your post # 3:

"Paul wrote:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of ELOHIM; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:22, 25.

Paul is speaking of 2 different "laws" here in this text.

1 law is the law of God.

2nd law is the law of sin

Now notice this statement by Paul:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2.

Notice how this ]For the law of the Spirit go with the law of God.

Now notice how the 2 law goes together: the law of sin and death with the law of sin.

What is this "law of sin and death"??

If you follow Paul's use of the definite articles with nomos, and if you follow his reasoning in context, you cannot help but understand that Paul is speaking of the same Law applied in two ways, that is, the Law of life as opposed to the Law of death, obedience as opposed to disobedience, and this is exactly how Moses does speak of his Law as I wrote above to you. EC. My friend, you have contradicted yourself here-again. How can these 2 laws be THE SAME LAW, and also be OPPOSED to each other??? Also, why did you LEAVE OUT the word ""spirit"" in this verse? Did Paul not say, that the law is spiritual Romans 7:14??? These are spiritual laws that you seem to not understand fully.

Adam and Eve in Genesis had no opportunity to break "the Law of ELOHIM" because that Law came through Moses much later. Really?? Oh, so YOU think Elohim's laws did not exist until they were merely codified or written down in the letter by Moses?? Well, Job and Paul knew differently, and they understood these spiritual laws.

Job said : If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom: Job 31:33. Paul wrote: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Romans 5:14

They did break a law of ELOHIM. They were told not to eat of the Tree, and they sinned by disobeying this law of ELOHIM, but that law was not the Law of the sin and the death concerning which Paul writes in Romans 7 & 8.

You first said this:

Adam and Eve in Genesis had no opportunity to break/transgress "the Law of ELOHIM"

Really?

Then you said this:

They did break a law of ELOHIM.

This now makes 2 contradictions of yourself, that YOU have made, and this also contradicts scriptures. By the way, in speaking of Adam, what is the difference between " a law of Elohim" and "the law of Elohim"?? Is sin not the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4??

Paul's language in Romans 7 does speak of another or different law, but this Law is not the Law of the spirit of the life nor is it the law of the sin and the death both of which are found in the Law of ELOHIM as given through Moses. Rather, that law is a spirit of disobedience that exists in our flesh simply because we are sentient or soulish beings (see Jude 1:19). Let's examine Romans 7:21-25:

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of ELOHIM after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (Notice that this other law brings us into captivity to the Law of sin.)EC The "law of sin" is warring against "the law of his mind=the spiritual law of Elohim". Spying, Then what is this "another law" ??
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (That is, our soulish, sentient nature?)
25 I thank ELOHIM through Yahushua Messiah the YAHWEH of us. So then with the mind I myself serve a law of God; but with the flesh a law of sin. (Believers do have deliverance through Yahushua Messiah.) Now WHY do you ignore Romans 7:14?? Also, show me where the scriptures speak of "the law of disobedience"??

It is extremely important to understand that Believers have been delivered from the law (the another law) that makes us captive to the Law of sin through the work of Messiah Yahushua. If this is not understood, then someone like Lucy can look upon the Law of ELOHIM as being at fault for our disobedience. Someone like Lucy can say that the Law is evil. The Law of sin is not the problem. The Law is part of the solution, and in the hands of Messiah Yahushua the Law of the sin and the death becomes the grace of righteousness and the gift of death for the sentient or carnal man which we once were before our conversion. It is precisely through this grace and gift that anyone like myself can begin to claim LIFE NOW.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

Where did I say, that the law is the problem?? The law is spiritual Romans 7:14, and both Messiah and Paul taught this, and WHY do you keep ignoring this??

[Eliyah]

Spying,

I'm teaching of a "spiritual law" here, that you evidently know very little about, and it is indeed taught in the scriptures.

[Eliyah]

Spying, I'm going to do my best to reveal a truth to you, and this truth has not been even realized, let alone taught for nigh on to 1,900 years since the Messiah's and apostles time. However, it will take YAHWEH Elohim to open your mind to receive this truth of a "spiritual law".

Mankind has been seeing the effects of sin or lawlessness, and they never look at the root cause.

Paul wrote: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23.

The thing one earns for sin/or lawlessness 1 John 3:4 is death.

Now notice this scripture, that Paul quotes from:

And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die. And it was revealed in mine ears by YAHWEH of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord YAHWEH of hosts. Isaiah 22:13-14.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor.15:32.

Notice that Paul is referring to this scripture, in the resurrection and change chapter.

Now let's look closely at these scriptures you quoted:

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; .... I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:16-19.

Notice the CHOICE here: 1. LIFE AND GOOD. 2. death and evil.

I YAHWEH have set before you 1.=LIFE or 2. =death.

Now, I want to ask YOU, did YAHWEH Elohim not tell Adam and Eve this in Genesis??

Let's look at these scriptures:

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen.2:9.

Also: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen.2:17.

This is said again by Eve in Gen.3:3.

Yes, Adam and Eve chose sin and death, and disobedience to Elohim.

The tree of good and evil is sin/lawlessness and eternal death.

The tree of Life is eternal life.

[Eliyah]

Spying, I'm going to do my best to reveal a truth to you, and this truth has not been even realized, let alone taught for nigh on to 1,900 years since the Messiah's and apostles time. However, it will take YAHWEH Elohim to open your mind to receive this truth of a "spiritual law".

Mankind has been seeing the effects of sin or lawlessness, and they never look at the root cause.

Paul wrote: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23.

The thing one earns for sin/or lawlessness 1 John 3:4 is death.

Now notice this scripture, that Paul quotes from:

And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die. And it was revealed in mine ears by YAHWEH of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord YAHWEH of hosts. Isaiah 22:13-14.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor.15:32.

Notice that Paul is referring to this scripture, in the resurrection and change chapter.

Now let's look closely at these scriptures you quoted:

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; .... I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:16-19.

Notice the CHOICE here: 1. LIFE AND GOOD. 2. death and evil.

I YAHWEH have set before you 1.=LIFE or 2. =death.

Now, I want to ask YOU, did YAHWEH Elohim not tell Adam and Eve this in Genesis??

Let's look at these scriptures:

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen.2:9.

Also: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen.2:17.

This is said again by Eve in Gen.3:3.

Yes, Adam and Eve chose sin and death, and disobedience to Elohim.

The tree of good and evil is sin/lawlessness and eternal death.

The tree of Life is eternal life.

Now, compare this above to this statement by Paul.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2.

Both of these "laws" are indeed "spiritual laws".

[Spying]

The Whole Law Is Spiritual!

Hi EliYah,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

You wrote this to me:

"Both of these "laws" are indeed "spiritual laws"."

Good! I see that our little debate has resulted in you digging deeper or perhaps I should say climbing a little higher on your mountain.

This is what you have previously said in your post # 3, and I will follow your example and comment on your remarks in teal:

Paul wrote:

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:22, 25.

Paul is speaking of 2 different "laws" here in this text. (This is just a little twist by you. The Law of ELOHIM contains both the law of the spirit of the life in Messiah Yahushua and the Law of the sin and the death. These are two sides of the same coin as you have noticed in studying Deuteronomy 30:15-19. The Law of ELOHIM is both the Life and the Death. It is both the Good and the Evil. It is both the Blessing and the Curse. Both sides are spiritual; otherwise, how could Paul say that the Law is spiritual (see Romans 7:14)?

1 law is the law of God. (Yes, #1 is the Law of ELOHIM, and #1 is spiritual.)

2nd law is the law of sin (#2 is also the Law of ELOHIM, and, therefore, #2 is also spiritual.)

Now notice this statement by Paul:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2.

Notice how this ]For the law of the Spirit go with the law of God.

Now notice how the 2 law goes together: the law of sin and death with the law of sin.

What is this "law of sin and death"??

This is in reference to Genesis 2:17.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They broke the law of Elohim. (Absolutely not! Even though the Law of ELOHIM is eternal, no one can be placed under the Law of ELOHIM as given through Moses until one is made aware of that Law see [Romans 5:13]. So, Adam and Eve did not break the Law of Moses, but they did break a law of ELOHIM. They disobeyed a law of ELOHIM by eating from the Tree from which they were commanded not to eat. Paul refers to this disobedience as the sin (see Romans 5:12), and Paul understands that the death came into the world through the sin.)

Now we can understand what Paul meant when he made this statement below:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (of sin and death), but under grace. Romans 6:14. (Paul actually says here "under the Law" with the definite article, and you have wrongly added in parenthesis "of sin and death"). As I wrote to you above, whenever Paul uses the definite article with nomos, this is a direct reference to the Law of ELOHIM as given through Moses, and this Law has two sides as indicated in Romans 8:2, and, yes, I know that this is hard to understand, but I encourage you to continue to study this issue and work through it so that you might understand exactly how Believers are not under the Law of Moses.)

If people do NOT distinguish between these different "laws" that Paul spoke about, they will end up thinking of the wrong "law" being spoken about. (It is evident to me from this statement that you yourself like and support one side of the Law of ELOHIM as given by Moses as opposed to the other side when both sides are indeed spiritual and should both be considered holy, right, and good.)

This is only part of the confusion that has led to nearly 4,000 different denominational beliefs about Paul's writings, and true enough as Peter said of Paul's writings is very difficult for the unlearned to twist his writings to their own destruction." (The denominations of the world divide up the Law of Moses in much the same manner as you have done on this thread, and by doing so, they remain under Law and, therefore, subject to physical death.)

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

[Spying]

Did Adam And Eve Really Have Free Choice?

Hi EliYah,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

You wrote:

"Yes, Adam and Eve chose sin and death, and disobedience to Elohim."

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil prior to their disobedience, what choice did they really have without such knowledge?

The Apostle Paul taught this about the Law:

1Timothy 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that a law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed ELOHIM, which was committed to my trust.

Is it not obvious that ELOHIM gives and makes laws for the unlawful? ELOHIM gave Adam and Eve a law. What does that say about ELOHIM's opinion of Adam and Eve? ELOHIM knew the nature of carnal, fleshly man, and ELOHIM knew that Adam and Eve being flesh would eventually be hostile against any commandment that HE would give to them. Indeed, ELOHIM gave them a commandment so that they would have the opportunity to experience what the Apostle Paul calls the Sin or the Offense in Romans 5. Once a person experiences sin, this person now acquires a knowledge of good and evil. In fact, this is an important reason why the Law was given to mankind through the Children of Israel. Only those who have experienced good and evil have the knowledge to make a choice between good and evil.

The Apostle Paul teaches that this is one of the important reasons why ELOHIM gave the Law to mankind:

Romans 5:20
20 Moreover law entered, that the offence (of Adam) might abound. But where the sin abounded, the grace did much more abound:

When a fleshly person hears the Law, what chance do they have of not committing the offence of Adam? So, the Law made all of mankind accountable sinners. The Sin did greatly increase and still is greatly increasing. How does the increase of the Offence increase the Grace, that is, the gift of righteousness?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr