Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT................. a crime has been committed.......

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT................. a crime has been committed.......

    When a crime has been committed and the guilty one apprehended - the jury has the prove a case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.... so a true and fair sentence can be given

    the crime committed or not committed is the question~
    the trial needs to begin~
    When it comes to a self confessed apostle saul/paul.....a charge has been laid at his door!! namely posing as an apostle~ and preaching 'my gospel'

    We need to set a crime scene and to view this crime to the point of satisfaction that establishes a crime - '' beyond a ''reasonable doubt'' with a testimony that contains the fruits of his ministry~~~~
    or
    that the ''Christian church'' he ''founded in Antioch, was built upon 'my gospel'' and array of his other personal thoughts that opposed THE DIVINE INSPIRATION of our Saviour.



    shall we begin to discover this ''well hidden'' crime against '' the churched'' and their vulnerability of following a wolf in sheep's clothing~

    exhibit #1
    the true rendering of the term ''APOSTLE''
    [is not one of private ''self confession'']
    NO!
    why not?

    there was a CONDITION attached to this unique title - THIS IS STATED very clearly so no man can be ignorant of this fact~
    NO one could claim this title who was not an eye witness to the daily events and ministry for 3 odd years walking and travelling with our Saviour~
    this is very CLEARLY stated when the 11 apostles were choosing the new 12th apostle Mathias
    the CONDITIONS WERE MET by this new 12th man~ therefore the POSTIONS OF the original eye witnesses and term ''APOSTLE'' was CLOSED forever.

    Acts 1, the 11 disciples asked the Holy Spirit to choose the 12th apostle to replace Judas who fell from his office by betrayal.

    The disciples cast a lot, and Matthias was accepted as the choice of the Holy Spirit.

    Their criteria was that the 12th apostle had to be someone with them from the beginning of Jesus' ministry and saw the resurrected Jesus and the Ascension.

    By that criteria, Paul could never qualify.

    This seals the question on whether Paul could be the 12th.

    whosoever states other wise is a liar and a peddler of untruth~

  • #2
    is there a RELIAbLE WITNESS to accuse this 'apostle' and his self confession....

    Exhibit #2

    can we find such a RELIABLE PERSON to name and shame such a pretender....
    can the jury hear this 1st WITNESS for the case PLEASE.....

    call THE MESSIAH YESHUA TO the bench....
    '' do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God'' Yeshua Messiah?
    yes~~~
    I revealed to My servant John the Beloved
    here is what I had him post to all so they would never be confused and deceived.......
    Revelation2 v verse 2

    Rev 2:2

    I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    thank you Yeshua Messiah~~~

    Comment


    • #3
      A question please to yeshua messiah~~~~

      QUESTION to Yeshua Messiah~
      ''as a witness giving forth Your testimony can YOU PERSONAL prove THERE ARE ONLY 12 ORIGINAL apostles - and no others to be added nor ever ''commended'' by Yourself.''
      yes answered Yeshua Messiah.

      MY 12 apostles names are from 12 tribes of Israel
      MY 12 apostles names are written on the 12 foundational stones in My Kingdom.

      thank you Yeshua Messiah as our true and faithful witness.

      therefore to sum this witness testimony - the jury please note...
      THIS IS A FAITHFULL WITNESS AND SAYS ''NO OTHER PEOPLE'' WERE TO BE added as his 'APOSTLES' nor to any lists or 'apostles' of the future....it was ''closed'' as an unique experience and relationship.
      and
      THAT HE HAD NOT CALLED, CHOSEN AND MADE READY [AS A PERSONAL EYE WITNESS TO ALL HIS MINISTRY] they were not on His team amen
      "you who have followed Me"
      was the condition~~~~ no other~~~~

      Comment


      • #4
        to evidence from ....... some conservative evangelical scholars

        conservative evangelical scholars that for the same reasons:

        "In Acts...Paul is denied the title of Apostle."
        Hengel & Schwemer, Paul between Damascus and Antioch (John Knox Press, 1997) at at 321 n. 3

        Thus, the only person to say Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ in the entire New Testament is Paul himself.

        Yet, we know that Jesus said if He alone bore witness to Himself, then His witness would be untrue. (John 5:31, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.")

        In Jesus' case, God spoke from heaven twice in front of multiple witnesses at Jesus' baptism and transfiguration that Jesus was God's Son.
        God from Heaven also said "listen to him."

        therefore
        Paul must meet a similar confirmation that an important title was given of "Apostle" in front of two witnesses by Jesus.
        consider this.....
        In the vision accounts, the "Jesus' whom Paul meets, which is recounted 3 times in Acts, never says Paul is an "Apostle" of Jesus.

        Why must we follow Jesus' requirement of two witnesses for a significant appointment as "Apostle?"
        Jesus was simply extending the principle, so that two witnesses were necessary to establish not only a wrong, but also anything as important as God sending someone for a special role.
        In fact, Jesus in Revelation 2:2 clearly agrees a self-serving claim to be His apostle is insufficient.
        Jesus commended the Ephesians for finding those claiming to be apostles were not.
        Hence, in that case, there was only self-serving proof, and Jesus commended the Ephesians for rejecting that as sufficient proof.

        Thus, Paul's claim to being an apostle suffers from being self-serving.
        By a Biblical standard from Jesus Himself, Paul's self-witness "is not true."



        we know that Jesus said if He alone bore witness to Himself, then His witness would be untrue. (John 5:31, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.")

        an untrue witness. - saul/paul. beyond a reasonable doubt.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT!

          Hi Lucy, yes, it is beyond a reasonable doubt, The Apostle Paul was APPROVED by Yeshua, Peter, and the Council of Acts 15. What further evidence do we need? Ken

          P.S. Now, when you look at those LAWLESS, unprincipled false accusers of Paul, it is very evident that he was a TRUE Apostle of Yeshua.
          Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

          Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
          Abstain from meats offered to idols
          (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
          So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

          Comment


          • #6
            why would a person write this?

            Originally posted by ImAHebrew View Post
            Hi Lucy, yes, it is beyond a reasonable doubt, The Apostle Paul was APPROVED by Yeshua, Peter, and the Council of Acts 15. What further evidence do we need? Ken

            P.S. Now, when you look at those LAWLESS, unprincipled false accusers of Paul, it is very evident that he was a TRUE Apostle of Yeshua.



            when the evidence is so all consuming thus far - against a ancient 'apostle'' = what reason would a man today have to ''acquit'' this person without seeking all the evidences.?
            Paul’s description of his meetings with apostles following his conversion (Gal. 1-2) proves that the other apostles never ordained him

            the jury has to consider.....
            evidence of acts 15.
            was he approved or not~~~ what was his re-action to acts 15?
            or
            was the NT altered [by some ancient others as their agenda for world dominations] to include perhaps an agent of satan?
            the jury must question all and not rely upon any false witnesses that approve without questioning the 'apostle' as charged and ofcourse an HONEST TRUTHSEEKER cannot forget the SAVIOUR'S GOSPEL AND STANDARDS
            Paul’s description of his meetings with apostles following his conversion (Gal. 1-2) proves that the other apostles never ordained him

            PERHAPS the WITNESS named DAVID.... can bring forth more information~~~~
            Jesus: I Will Build MY Church

            By David A. DePra

            He says unto them, But whom say you that I am?
            And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven.
            And I say also unto you,
            That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mat 16:15-19)

            Jesus’ words, "I will build My church,"
            are perhaps some of the most ignored, misunderstood, and misinterpreted, in all the Bible.
            Indeed, it is almost impossible to penetrate people’s traditional ideas about what Jesus meant when He said, "I will build My church."

            however after Acts 15 the jury will find that James said '' NO'', to meats sacrificed to idols.... the holy spirit decision for all....
            and what of Circumcision
            ''NO'' was the holy spirit advice/command
            Saul/paul reaction later was.....
            Paul taught that it was okay for the Elect to eat meat sacrificed to idols; and then ''did the Circumcision'' on poor aged Timothy [ as if his genitalia was on continual display to the public gaze]

            again we have more evidences from other witnesses.
            his apostleship was unrecognized by others.

            Of the 22 times in the New Testament where Paul is referred to as an apostle, only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself.
            These two instances came from the same person.
            Not from Yahshua or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke.
            Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the apostles, (chapter 14:4,14).
            Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas.
            By this time in the record, Luke would have been very familiar with Paul calling himself an apostle and was no doubt in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself.
            By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan.
            This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record as recognizing his apostleship!
            there is a CLEAR INDICATION saul/paul's ''apostleship'' FAILED TO BE RECOGNISED BY THE 12 disciples.

            now to a modern day commentary on this 'apostle'

            Where possible, he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it.
            If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the 'Our Father.'
            Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord."
            Albert Schweitzer


            ........ to be beyond a reasonable doubt....
            Last edited by LucySmith; 05-07-2016, 08:52 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              ADDING to what is written....is not worthy of divine truthseeking~~~~~

              false accusers?
              or
              a false self confessed apostle?
              we will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt.....how the cards were dealt~~~~~and how the fruit dropped off the 'apostolic' tree.
              shall We be beguiled by ancient lies or can we discover the divine life saving truth~~~~

              can we serve 2 gospels
              the Saviour's command ''FOLLOW ME'' [ and the redeemed do -note THE REDEEMED ONLY FOLLOW THE Lamb - IT IS THEIR TESTIMONY] NOT OTHERS.
              or
              apostle ''my gospel'' saul/paul renderings

              2 CONTENDERS FOR THE THRONE OF YOUR HEART AND MIND.

              Comment


              • #8
                THE JURY HEARS FROM religioussearcher.....

                Paul’s claim in Galatians 2 is that when he met with the pillar apostles, they recognized, saw, and acknowledged that God had graced Paul with the apostolic ministry of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles.

                Paul’s argument here would make no sense if in a previous meeting the apostles had ordained Paul and commissioned him to preach to the Gentiles.

                Had they done so, there would be no need for them to recognize his apostolic ministry, since they would be the ones who had authorized it.

                Therefore, even if, hypothetically, Paul had met some of the apostles in a visit between the ones described in Galatians 1:18-20 and Galatians 2:1-10 (which I do not think happened), the apostles certainly did not ordain Paul as an apostle at such a visit.


                the truth of this matter for the jury to consider these differences....

                Prior to the meeting, Paul faces opposition from Jewish Christians (Acts 15:5; Galatians 2:3-5)


                •The apostles meet (Acts 15:6-29; Galatians 2:6-10) and Peter and James play key roles (Acts 15:7-21; Galatians 2:7-9)


                •Paul reports and supports his mission to the gentiles (Acts 15:4, 12; Galatians 2:2.)


                •There "much discussion" at both meetings (Acts 15:6-7; Galatians 2:6-7) and they work out a compromise (Acts 15:13-29 ; Galatians 2:7-10)


                •Paul and Barnabas aren't given any special directions, but are sent to the Gentiles (Acts 15:22 - 29; Galatians 2:7-9)


                •Certain requirements are imposed on the gentiles (Acts 15:28; Galatians 2:10)


                •Soon, he and Barnabas have a falling out and part ways (Acts 15:39; Galatians 2 vs 13)


                Differences between Acts and Galatians accounts

                •Acts says he's going for a disagreement in the church (Acts 15:2).
                Galatians says he's going on revelation (Galatians 2:2).


                •Acts seems to be a public affair (Acts 15:4),
                while Galatians states clearly that it was in private (Galatians 2:2.


                •Acts says that the contenders were believers (Acts 15:5),
                Galatians claims that these were "false believers" that came to spy them out (Galatians 2:3)


                •In Acts shows James supporting the gentiles (Acts 15:19)
                whereas Galatians shows that it was Paul (Galatians 2:5)


                •In Acts, Paul was asked to go and spread the gospel (Acts 15:20-21)
                whereas in Galatians, it seems that the result of the counsel is that he was only meant to remember the poor (Galatians 2:9)


                •Acts shows that they sent a short letter (Acts 15:23-29)
                whereas Galatians does not mention a letter


                Reconciliation

                So, how do we reconcile these differences?



                . To reiterate this picture again and try to grasp the profound significance of it.
                Here we have in the book of Revelation the words of Yahshua commending the Ephesian church for rejecting someone who claimed to be his apostle.
                While Paul, the only person anywhere (other than the twelve original apostles) at that time to have gone on record claiming to be an apostle, we know has made this very claim to this same Ephesian church.

                At the same time, Paul laments himself of the fact that he has been rejected by them!

                How could it NOT be Paul and his associates that Yahshua had commended the Ephesian church for rejecting?
                It really couldn't' be more simple.
                Here, one more time, is the equation in its simplest form.

                Paul to the Ephesians:
                "I am an apostle of Yahshua"

                The Ephesians to Paul:
                "No you're not."


                beyond a reasonable doubt,~~~~~~it is not up to you to decide - these people were there you are not~~~~~

                Comment


                • #9
                  the fruits of this man... you who wish to follow? beyond a doubt

                  if you do, sitting at his feet, you become EXACTLY as he was~~~~~

                  a commentary on the ''persona'' of saul~~~~

                  Turning to I Corinthians,
                  finds Paul to be cunning in two particular places, I Cor 1-4 and 9:19-23.

                  In the former, he tells his addressees that the only wisdom that matters is God's wisdom rather than human wisdom (I Cor 1:18-25), only then to present himself as the conduit of true spiritual wisdom which they can't hope to attain without him
                  (I Cor 2:6-3:4).
                  Given suggests that Paul is claiming to have a "secret and hidden wisdom of God" (I Cor 2:7) available only to the privileged -- which would make him as bad as the gnostics he just finished bashing (in I Cor 1:18-25).
                  Paul thus makes the rules and breaks them (see pp 95-103).
                  http://lorenrosson.blogspot.com.au/2...tles-true.html



                  Paul's more infamous deception is the one he candidly admits to:
                  that he "becomes like a Jew in order to win Jews" to the gospel (I Cor 19:20) and "becomes like the lawless in order to win the lawless" (I Cor 19:21).

                  Despite scholarly attempts to avoid the obvious implications (or treat as hyperbole), the apostle is admitting that he temporarily, and cunningly, practices Torah in order to win Jews, and then behaves like an immoral pagan in order to win Gentiles.

                  Paul's real view, of course, squares with neither behaviour, for he insists that while the Torah is obsolete, the best of its requirements are fulfilled on the avenue of the spirit.
                  It's as if a Southern Baptist were to try converting a group of Jews by observing Torah in their presence, and then later mix with heathens by drinking, dancing, and smoking pot. [lol]

                  People were incensed by Paul's chameleon behavior -- in II Cor 12:16 he responds to charges of "taking people in by deceit" -- and rightfully so.
                  While it's perfectly acceptable to lie and deceive in the honor-shame Mediterranean (on which see here), especially against enemies, it's not acceptable to beguile one's potential converts like this.

                  Given locates the rationale for Paul's deception in an apocalyptic world-view: because he believed people were so blinded by the heathen gods of the present world -- and too easily taken in by pagan deceptions -- they needed to be deceived in turn for their own good. (see pp 115-117).
                  Paul's strategy, in this sense, mimics those of Socrates and Aristotle:
                  "Just as Plato's Socrates feels free to break the rules of dialectic if necessary in order to win an argument, and Aristotle can counsel the use of sophistic elenchus to defeat sophists on their own terms, so Paul feels free to leave the world of being for that of seeming, 'to become all things to everyone,' in order to propagate the truth, his gospel truth...

                  in a Platonic-Socratic world-view, the ignorance from which humanity suffers results from the elusive and changing nature of the sphere of becoming, but in Paul's apocalyptic worldview, the deceptive character of existence in 'this world' is even more acute because 'the god of this world' is himself a diabolically clever sophist...[In either case], the deceived must first be deceived for their own good." (pp 117, 176-177, 117)



                  the best witness is from the criminal himself= the deceived must first be deceived for their own good."
                  sitting at the feet of Saul - brings forth the fruits of deception.~~~~ beyond doubt~~~~

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    the little flock..... the narrow way.... INTO LIFE ABUNDANT

                    WHAT DID YESHUA SAY....
                    John 10:5
                    “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.”

                    the little flock WILL NOT KNOW, the voices of a stranger and so they will not follow strangers.~~~
                    they will FLEE from strangers - stranger danger

                    if, you follow strangers you are not part of this little flock~~~~~
                    beyond a doubt, saul/paul. by his own confession was a liar and a deceiver..... [ do liars enter into the kingdom of heaven.] NO.

                    they do not know the voice of strangers = the little flock only.

                    THE ONLY PERSON [outside the original 12] WHO CALLED THEMSELVES '' AN APOSTLE'' WAS SAUL/PAUL - whom Yeshua said....


                    Paul to the Ephesians:
                    "I am an apostle of Yahshua"

                    The Ephesians to Paul:
                    "No you're not."


                    beyond a reasonable doubt,~~~~~~



                    the Myth
                    Christianity began with the appearance of John the Baptist who heralded the coming of Jesus Christ the Saviour.

                    The first objection is technical.
                    What we term “Christianity” did not begin until after Paul’s conversion.
                    From Acts 11.26, we learn that it was in Antioch, not Jerusalem, that disciples were first called Christians.
                    Those who believed in Yeshua as the promised Messiah were followers of “the way” or “this way” (Acts 9.2, 22.4).

                    They were not known as “Christians.” John the Baptist was not a “Christian” but a Jewish prophet (Luke 7.28).
                    Yeshua was never a Christian~~~~

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      they cry'' peace peace peace peace peace peace peace peace peace''

                      sudden destruction comes......[ p.e.a.c.e. AS A PROCLAIMATION.... is a key word - no man should ever do that]

                      however. those in the life abundant gospel, have no fears.... THEY ARE TAUGHT BY THEIR SAVIOUR... amen
                      what exactly....

                      Have no allegiance to the world.
                      Do not seek or follow its ways, or its riches.
                      Do not follow after its pleasures, its systems, or its sign posts directing to its attractions.
                      Do not seek its counsel or apply its wisdom.
                      Do not be settled in its security so called.
                      Look only for that which carries the tag “made in the Heavens”, rather than “made on the earth”.

                      Yeshua A MAN FROM THE HEAVENS.... amen
                      Yeshua A MAN FROM THE HEAVENS.... amen
                      Yeshua A MAN FROM THE HEAVENS.... amen

                      You are going to have to do things in the natural realms which will disturb your earthly security which give natural worldly comfort, but cause a spiritual unease.
                      I will break these worldly securities and bring change to your circumstances in order that you serve only Me, for that which you serve will be your master.
                      You will no longer serve houses, jobs, investments, family, friends and religion.
                      Expose yourselves to insecurity in the world system and then you will see how Great and Faithful I am.
                      Test My Faithfulness.
                      Some have stood in worldly security and never tested Me.
                      I will change this.
                      You will actually come to know that I am Faithful to my word, rather than just speaking it without experience.
                      Do not fear this for I will never leave or forsake you, but you will be brought to the extremities where your trust will be only in Me.
                      Do not set your future in worldly plans, or toil for their acclaim.

                      Trust no man other than one who “trembles at My Word”, for they hear only Me.
                      The religious world hates you and will plot to deceive you and involve you in its purposes.
                      The religious will poison you with rejection and jealousy.
                      They will smile nicely and say they understand, whilst their hand will work mischief against you.


                      Do not spend your time in pursuit of activity bearing religious titles for the sake of being seen.
                      This is pride and self-exaltation and I will strip you of it.
                      It matters only that you are seen and known of Me, and I look on the heart.
                      Better that you invest your time before My Face.
                      Do not strive to reveal the Glorious secrets of My Third Day to the religious, for the day of their hearing is not yet at hand.
                      Bridle your natural enthusiasm, and speak only when I tell you to speak, for you will be stoned as the prophets of old.

                      I will birth My Kingdom Day and I will make known to you My times and movings in due course”.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Your ONLY defense is to say the Scriptures were "altered."

                        Hi Lucy, it is OVERWHELMING, according to the Scriptures that WE HAVE, The Apostle Paul was APPROVED and ACCEPTED as an Apostle. The Holy Scriptures which clearly indicate that Truth has to become "altered" according to your hatred and disdain for The Apostle Paul. Those very CLEAR Scriptures you will deny, and then build YOUR false accusations against our Beloved Brother.

                        Please consider that The Apostle Paul HAD the EXACT same Gospel as did the OTHER Apostles. The True Gospel is DENIED by traditional christianity and by those who cannot understand the Spiritual Fulfillment of what Moses WROTE. Yeshua, in presenting the Gospel to His Disciples in Luke 24, OPENED their MINDS to UNDERSTAND exactly what Moses wrote, and that Gospel CONCERNING what happened to Yeshua, just as Moses wrote of it, is EXACTLY the SAME Gospel that the Apostle Paul declare that he FIRST received. Why do you continue to deny this Gospel that Yeshua taught to His Apostles? Why continue to be foolish, not believing what Moses WROTE, and then falsely accusing OUR Dear Brother? Ken
                        Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                        Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                        Abstain from meats offered to idols
                        (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                        So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You have ERRORS Lucy!

                          Originally posted by LucySmith View Post
                          when the evidence is so all consuming thus far - against a ancient 'apostle'' = what reason would a man today have to ''acquit'' this person without seeking all the evidences.?
                          Paul’s description of his meetings with apostles following his conversion (Gal. 1-2) proves that the other apostles never ordained him

                          the jury has to consider.....
                          evidence of acts 15.
                          was he approved or not~~~ what was his re-action to acts 15?
                          or
                          was the NT altered [by some ancient others as their agenda for world dominations] to include perhaps an agent of satan?
                          the jury must question all and not rely upon any false witnesses that approve without questioning the 'apostle' as charged and ofcourse an HONEST TRUTHSEEKER cannot forget the SAVIOUR'S GOSPEL AND STANDARDS
                          Paul’s description of his meetings with apostles following his conversion (Gal. 1-2) proves that the other apostles never ordained him

                          PERHAPS the WITNESS named DAVID.... can bring forth more information~~~~



                          however after Acts 15 the jury will find that James said '' NO'', to meats sacrificed to idols.... the holy spirit decision for all....
                          and what of Circumcision
                          ''NO'' was the holy spirit advice/command
                          Saul/paul reaction later was.....
                          Paul taught that it was okay for the Elect to eat meat sacrificed to idols; and then ''did the Circumcision'' on poor aged Timothy [ as if his genitalia was on continual display to the public gaze]

                          again we have more evidences from other witnesses.

                          there is a CLEAR INDICATION saul/paul's ''apostleship'' FAILED TO BE RECOGNISED BY THE 12 disciples.

                          now to a modern day commentary on this 'apostle'

                          Where possible, he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it.
                          If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the 'Our Father.'
                          Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord."
                          Albert Schweitzer


                          ........ to be beyond a reasonable doubt....
                          Hi Lucy, you have errors in your TEACHINGS. Yeshua, NOT The Apostle Paul, is the CHIEF BUILDER of His Body, but ALL of the Apostles were USED by Yeshua in building UP His Body, The Ekklesia. So to try to PROVE the Apostles were FALSE because they helped in building the Body is erroneous.

                          Secondly, your false assumption about "food/meat sacrificed to idols," as proof The Apostle Paul was not following the Holy Spirit and the Council's decision, is in error also. When a Gentile would COME to Messiah and BELIEVE, they were told of the FOUR necessary commands that they HAD to follow, according to the Apostles and Holy Spirit's decision. If a Gentile would refuse, and continue eating food/meat that had been sacrificed to false gods, they would not be allowed fellowship. But here is the Truth (and I am sure a strict legalist as yourself should grasp this), ONCE a Gentile GAVE UP following after the worship of those false gods, and would no longer eat from their table, they fully believed and recognized that the worship of that false god was meaningless, and those who ate from the table of the false gods didn't benefit a thing. So ONCE a Gentile BELIEVED and ACCEPTED that the false god was meaningless, and that the food/meat was not blessed at all, The Apostle Paul's decision was for the BELIEVING Gentiles NOT to question about whether or not the food/meat had been offered when they went to buy it. The Apostle Paul KNEW those BELIEVING Gentiles were not disobeying the Council's decision by not raising questions when they went to the meat markets (false temples). But The Apostle Paul CLEARLY told them that IF someone who wasn't a BELIEVER would offer them food/meat that had been sacrificed to an idol (and told them it was), they were to REFUSE to eat it for the sake of that unbeliever. The Apostle Paul KNEW that everyone coming INTO the Knowledge of the Truth HAD to come out from the FALSE system of worship that was in place in the "meat" market temples, just as WE know that those who eat from the table of traditional christianity, with their false sabbath (sunday worship), and false holidays (christmas/easter), have to give that idol worship up also. Once you give up sunday worship, christmas, and easter, will or should you never eat a "christmas" cookie, or have an "easter lily" in your house? A true Believer will KNOW that cookie or lily is NOTHING or has NOTHING to do with true worship, and will partake, BUT if an unbeliever makes an issue about their false belief in christmas and easter and how you should participate in their traditions, then have nothing to do with those activities. Do you see how the Apostle Paul was judging those things? Was he wrong to allow TRUE Believing Gentiles the freedom to partake of what was sold in the "meat" markets (false temples) without asking questions about the origin of the meat? Ken
                          Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                          Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                          Abstain from meats offered to idols
                          (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                          So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wrong again!

                            Hi Lucy, you quoted this from someone else:

                            his apostleship was unrecognized by others.

                            Of the 22 times in the New Testament where Paul is referred to as an apostle, only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself.
                            These two instances came from the same person.
                            Not from Yahshua or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke.
                            Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the apostles, (chapter 14:4,14).
                            Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas.
                            By this time in the record, Luke would have been very familiar with Paul calling himself an apostle and was no doubt in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself.
                            By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan.
                            This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record as recognizing his apostleship!
                            The error here is in understanding what the Greek word Apostle means:

                            G652 ἀπόστολος (apostolos)
                            1.) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders

                            AV- apostle (78), messenger (2), he that is sent (1); (81)
                            (Mt 10:5) Yeshua sent these twelve out, and commanded them, saying, “Don’t go among the Gentiles, and don’t enter into any city of the Samaritans.

                            But look here, didn't Yeshua and the Holy Spirit do the same with The Apostle Paul, and SEND him:

                            Acts 13:2-4

                            (2) As they ministered to Yahweh, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
                            (3) And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away.
                            (4) So they (Barnabas and Paul), being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

                            (Acts 22:21) And He said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

                            (Acts 26:17) Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

                            Lucy, do not these Holy Scriptures CLEARLY show that The Apostle Paul was SENT by Yeshua and the Holy Spirit to TESTIFY just as the OTHER Apostles were sent to testify? Why do you continue to deny these very CLEAR Scriptures concerning Paul's Apostleship?

                            It's as if YOU would deny Yeshua's Apostleship:

                            (Heb 3:1) Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider The Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Messiah Yeshua;

                            Was not Yeshua ALSO Sent:

                            (Jn 20:21) Then said Yeshua to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent Me, even so send I you.

                            So cannot you see that the Temple has MORE foundation stones than just 12, a CornerStone, the Chief Apostle, and even additional Apostles, born out of time. Why do you fight against and accuse those whom Yeshua has Chosen to send? Ken
                            Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                            Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                            Abstain from meats offered to idols
                            (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                            So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              the jury as to assess the information given.....

                              the evidence cannot be ADDED to the information [ from the story line] by offering up - ''personal theories and personal twists on how they see it'' but the true witness is to relate HOW they ''saw'' it at the time and the EFFECT it had upon others WHO ALSO WITNESSED this crime in progress ~~~~~~

                              CONSIDER = who is THE TRUE WITNESS.
                              the witness Yeshua Messiah, saw the false apostle [ saul/paul as he IS the only one named [but veiled] at the crime scene Rev 2 v 2 ] and denounced him to all and recommended their SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENTS.
                              OFCOURSE, He, [the messiah] was a stickler for ''fruit inspection'' and He already knew His people could discern the tares from the wheat.

                              Next.... the effects. the ''calling into service'' plus the teachings of saul/paul and the effects of preaching ''my gospel'' shall be called in as evidence.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X