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  • THE THREE DAYS AND THE THREE NIGHTS, Matthew 12:40.

    I've entitled this thread, the three days and three nights, because since Herbert W. Armstrong stole this idea from E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible, and made it popular flying around the U.S. and the world on a corporate jet, many of his followers, disciples, and splinter groups have been going to religious forums spreading their finite logic of this doctrine to unsuspecting Christians, Messianics, and anyone who even discusses the death, burial, and resurrection of the Biblical Messiah.

    Those who espouse this doctrine, claim that Messiah was buried sometime on Wednesday evening, as they say, and arose from the dead at 3 pm on a Saturday evening, as they say, and exactly 72 hours in the grave, and citing Matthew 12:40 as their timing proof text. Many even go so far as to say-quote " Why, if you don't believe Christ's or Messiah's only sign-the sign of Jonah, as Jonah was in the fishes belly three days and three night, and that Messiah was in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights, then you don't even accept the true Christ or Messiah of the Bible ", and some critics even say a believer is lost, and can never receive salvation, and Herbert W. Armstrong dogmatically stated this.

    However, there is a fairly decent article booklet in PDF format reading, by my friend Matthew Jansen, who visited me in 2006, he is in Conyers GA here...http://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/articles.html that covers this in some detail, and it is easy to understand, however, this article booklet does not cover all the details of Messiah's resurrection, such as who are all the women involved in buying the spices and ointments.

    This will be an on going process of information given in this thread, however, if anyone wants to respond, they may do so, however, it seems this forum is almost dead, because I have seen a lot of joiners and no posters.

    Shalom,
    Eliyahu C.

  • #2
    Faulty Memory!

    Hi Eliyah,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    In starting this thread and topic you wrote:
    "Those who espouse this doctrine, claim that Messiah was buried sometime on Wednesday evening, as they say, and arose from the dead at 3 pm on a Saturday evening, as they say,"
    Both ImAHebrew and I espouse the teaching or doctrine that Our Messiah Yahushua was exactly 72 hours in the grave. We have never stated on this forum or any other place that Messiah Yahushua arose from the dead at 3:00 PM on Saturday afternoon or evening. Actually, a number of years ago, internally amongst the Tzaddikim, we debated the issue whether or not Messiah was buried or placed in the Tomb prior to the Sun setting or after the Sun had set. Indeed, ImAHebrew and I were on opposite sides of the fence in that debate. So, Eliyah, we have always amongst ourselves placed a great deal of value on dissent as long as everything is conducted decently and orderly and sincerely.
    I am certain that your extraordinary power of memory recall has failed you in this instance. Of course, I am more than willing to be proved wrong. Do you have a quote where ImAHebrew or myself stated that Messiah Yahushua arose from the dead on or about 3:00 PM Saturday evening? If so, then please provide that quote.
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Matthew Janzen

      Originally posted by Eliyah View Post
      I've entitled this thread, the three days and three nights, because since Herbert W. Armstrong stole this idea from E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible, and made it popular flying around the U.S. and the world on a corporate jet, many of his followers, disciples, and splinter groups have been going to religious forums spreading their finite logic of this doctrine to unsuspecting Christians, Messianics, and anyone who even discusses the death, burial, and resurrection of the Biblical Messiah.

      Those who espouse this doctrine, claim that Messiah was buried sometime on Wednesday evening, as they say, and arose from the dead at 3 pm on a Saturday evening, as they say, and exactly 72 hours in the grave, and citing Matthew 12:40 as their timing proof text. Many even go so far as to say-quote " Why, if you don't believe Christ's or Messiah's only sign-the sign of Jonah, as Jonah was in the fishes belly three days and three night, and that Messiah was in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights, then you don't even accept the true Christ or Messiah of the Bible ", and some critics even say a believer is lost, and can never receive salvation, and Herbert W. Armstrong dogmatically stated this.

      However, there is a fairly decent article booklet in PDF format reading, by my friend Matthew Jansen, who visited me in 2006, he is in Conyers GA here...http://www.ministersnewcovenant.org/articles.html that covers this in some detail, and it is easy to understand, however, this article booklet does not cover all the details of Messiah's resurrection, such as who are all the women involved in buying the spices and ointments.

      This will be an on going process of information given in this thread, however, if anyone wants to respond, they may do so, however, it seems this forum is almost dead, because I have seen a lot of joiners and no posters.

      Shalom,
      Eliyahu C.
      Shalom Eliyahu C, I spent a little time this morning looking over Matthew Janzen's "The Sign of Jonah," and I would say that his explanations are lacking. Several quick things:

      1. He doesn't address Joshua 5 when he discusses the Firstfruits. Joshua 5 shows that the Children of Israel waved the Firstfruits on the "morrow after" the Passover (the 14th) , which shows that the Passover (the 14th) fell on the WEEKLY Sabbath. For the Israelites to eat of the produce of the land on the "morrow" after the 14th, it requires that the 14th to be a Sabbath, and the Firstfruits had to be waved "on the morrow after the Sabbath," (the 15th) BEFORE they could eat of that produce of the land. So the 15th day of the 1st month was the "morrow after the Sabbath," according the what the Israelite's did in coming into the Land.

      2. His point about "preparation for the Sabbath," is mute. The "High Day Sabbath" is considered by John to be a "sabbath," "For that Sabbath was a High Day," so the terms "preparation for the Sabbath," and "preparation for the Passover," are interchangeable, as any Sabbath has to be prepared for, whether weekly, or high day. Both could be called "preparation for the Sabbath." He tries to distinguish the "preparation for the Sabbath" as DIFFERENT to the "preparation for the Passover," and that should not be done, as they BOTH are preparing for a Sabbath, and one cannot, by using the phrase "the preparation for the Sabbath," say it ONLY refers to the WEEKLY Sabbath...it can also refer to a High Day Sabbath. When on prepares for the Sabbath of the 1st and 10th days of the Seventh Month, the day prior to those Sabbaths would be referred to as the "preparation for the Sabbath," even when they do not fall on the weekly Sabbath. Although the 1st day of the Seventh Month would have to be prepared for with an "expectation" of sighting the New Moon, and then the Sabbath arriving. You would not want to enter into this Sabbath, unprepared, so there would ALSO be a "preparation for the Sabbath" for the Feast of Trumpets, and it could be called the "preparation for the Sabbath," or the "preparation for Trumpets."

      3. His logic for the disparity between Mark's and Luke's account about the buying and preparing of the burial perfumes is to explain that there could be "two sets of spices in question here." He claims that Luke's were not bought, and were prepared prior to the Sabbath beginning (that they had the ingredients on hand), and Mark's account has them going out after the Sabbath to purchase "additional" ingredients and then prepare those additional perfumes. One of his main points concerning Luke's account is that Yeshua died at 3:00 pm and they would have had at least 3 hours to prepare the burial perfumes before the Sabbath began. What he fails to read, or comprehend is that the women were at the grave site, watching as the stone was rolled into place, and THEN they RETURNED to prepare the burial perfumes. His logic is illogical, as they did not have 3 hours. The sun was setting, and as The Gospel of the Holy Twelve states, they had "lamps" so that they could safely return in the dark. Matthew's logic and reasoning is flawed.

      4. His take on Luke 24:21 does not address G71 or G575, so he is totally incorrect in believing that "today" IS the third day. I would think that once his mind is opened to the Truth of how when this verse is properly translated, "Today LEADS (G71) the third day AWAY FROM (G575) these things being done," he would understand that this day, the 1st day of the week, is the FOURTH day from when these things were done, not the third day.

      5. His argument that "Friday" is the "accepted" day of the crucifixion for 18 centuries would not fare well with Lunar Sabbath keepers, as the "Saturday" Sabbath has been in existence much longer than 18 centuries.

      6. Matthew 28:1 is not understood properly by him. He needs to realize that "the first day of the week," should be rendered "the ONE of the SABBATHS," as this day was day ONE in counting through the seven Sabbaths to Shavuot.

      7. His doubting that Yeshua would ride into Jerusalem ON the Sabbath is invalid. This is what infuriated the rulers, just as much as they were infuriated with Him healing on the Sabbath. And you have to ask, why did these rulers "break the Sabbath," in going to Pilate on the day after the preparation? If these rulers would "break the Sabbath" for something evil, why can't the strict rule of the Sabbath be set aside to FULFILL Scripture? Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on the Sabbath, the 10th day of Aviv.

      8. Yeshua being in "the heart of the earth," truly means the time he would be in the tomb (72 hours). Matthew argues that Yeshua's suffering can be included in "the heart of the earth" time frame, but if you examine Jonah's prayer WHILE he was in the fish's belly, he relates his entombment in the fish's belly as being in the belly of Sheol (hell-grave), and he went DOWN to the bottoms of the mountains (heart of the earth). So Yeshua's entombment can ONLY refer to the time frame that He was IN the grave (72 hours), and not the time included with His suffering and death as Matthew wrongly assumes. See Jonah 2:1-6.

      Now Eliyahu, Matthew does not address some very major points, and this makes his reasoning and logic incorrect. Also, to correct something that you said, we do not believe Yeshua rose at "3:00 pm" Saturday, as Yeshua had to rise 72 hours AFTER He was "enclosed" in the tomb on Wednesday. His entombment began when the STONE enclosed the tomb, and this was right at "sunset," closer to 6:00 pm. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
      Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

      Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
      Abstain from meats offered to idols
      (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
      So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

      Comment


      • #4
        Where did I mention your name or Ken's name above?

        Originally posted by Spying View Post
        Hi Eliyah,
        Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
        In starting this thread and topic you wrote:
        "Those who espouse this doctrine, claim that Messiah was buried sometime on Wednesday evening, as they say, and arose from the dead at 3 pm on a Saturday evening, as they say,"
        Both ImAHebrew and I espouse the teaching or doctrine that Our Messiah Yahushua was exactly 72 hours in the grave. We have never stated on this forum or any other place that Messiah Yahushua arose from the dead at 3:00 PM on Saturday afternoon or evening. Actually, a number of years ago, internally amongst the Tzaddikim, we debated the issue whether or not Messiah was buried or placed in the Tomb prior to the Sun setting or after the Sun had set. Indeed, ImAHebrew and I were on opposite sides of the fence in that debate. So, Eliyah, we have always amongst ourselves placed a great deal of value on dissent as long as everything is conducted decently and orderly and sincerely.
        I am certain that your extraordinary power of memory recall has failed you in this instance. Of course, I am more than willing to be proved wrong. Do you have a quote where ImAHebrew or myself stated that Messiah Yahushua arose from the dead on or about 3:00 PM Saturday evening? If so, then please provide that quote.
        Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
        Sincerely, Latuwr
        I am certain that your extraordinary power of memory recall has failed you in this instance.
        Really? That's a laugh! Spying, I'm sorry you assumed I was speaking of you and Ken, because I was not referring to you and Ken in particular, as you both are assuming. Where did I even mention your name or Ken's name in thee above? To be honest, I was referring to others, after all, there are others who espouse different views on the 72 hours, and I'm not going to write down anything other than what you and Ken say on this matter.

        Well now Spying and Ken, would you please show me a scriptural text, that says Messiah was resurrected, or arose on a Sabbath, or near at sunset, or precisely when? After all, I do want to be certain what you and Ken say on this matter?

        And Ken, I will later address your points above, however, I want to establish yours and Spying's view on this, and to establish your scriptural texts on this matter.

        Comment


        • #5
          Scriptural Proof Concerning A Sabbath Resurrection?

          Hi Eliyah,
          Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
          Shabbat Shalom!
          You wrote:
          "To be honest, I was referring to others, after all, there are others who espouse different views on the 72 hours."
          Your honesty here is only exceeded by your ability to engage in laughter. Here again are your exact words as quoted from your opening post on this thread:
          "Those who espouse this doctrine, claim that Messiah was buried sometime on Wednesday evening, as they say, and arose from the dead at 3 pm on a Saturday evening, as they say, and exactly 72 hours in the grave, and citing Matthew 12:40 as their timing proof text."
          Both ImAHebrew and myself espouse this doctrine. We both cite Matthew 12:40:
          Matthew 12:40
          40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish; so shall the Son of the Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
          But not as our only proof text. We both believe that Messiah was buried late Wednesday evening, and that Messiah arose from the dead exactly three days and three nights after HIS burial. We both reject any teaching that teaches that Messiah arose from the dead exactly 72 hours after HIS death. Messiah's above sign has nothing to do with the number of hours Messiah was dead. The above sign has eveything to do with the time of HIS entombment.
          Now, having admitted that you did write the above referring to others and not to ImAHebrew and myself, why then did you throw out a blanket statement concerning those who espouse this doctrine when you know full well that ImAHebrew and I do espouse the teaching that Messiah was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? Your wording should have been "some who espouse this doctrine, as they say, and there are some who espouse the teaching that HE arose from the dead at 3 PM on Saturday evening, as they say," if it was truly only your desire to express that there exists a variation of belief concerning the veracity of the Sign as indicated by Messiah in Matthew 12:40. If you would have done so, then you would have received no objection from me.
          I do not believe, Eliyah, that you really are interested in the scriptures which agree with the Sign that Messiah gave because you believe that Messiah died on the 14th, that Messiah was in HIS grave on the 15th which in your thinking is both an annual and weekly Sabbath, and that Messiah arose from the death on the 16th which is the morrow after the Sabbath. Your belief rejects the Sign so why are you curious about any scriptural proofs concerning the death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection of Messiah Yahushua? Are you sincerely seeking to change your denial of Messiah's Sign?
          Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
          Sincerely, Latuwr
          The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Spying View Post
            Hi Eliyah,
            Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
            Shabbat Shalom!
            You wrote:
            "To be honest, I was referring to others, after all, there are others who espouse different views on the 72 hours."
            Your honesty here is only exceeded by your ability to engage in laughter. Here again are your exact words as quoted from your opening post on this thread:
            "Those who espouse this doctrine, claim that Messiah was buried sometime on Wednesday evening, as they say, and arose from the dead at 3 pm on a Saturday evening, as they say, and exactly 72 hours in the grave, and citing Matthew 12:40 as their timing proof text."
            Both ImAHebrew and myself espouse this doctrine. We both cite Matthew 12:40:
            Matthew 12:40
            40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish; so shall the Son of the Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
            But not as our only proof text. We both believe that Messiah was buried late Wednesday evening, and that Messiah arose from the dead exactly three days and three nights after HIS burial. We both reject any teaching that teaches that Messiah arose from the dead exactly 72 hours after HIS death. Messiah's above sign has nothing to do with the number of hours Messiah was dead. The above sign has eveything to do with the time of HIS entombment.
            Now, having admitted that you did write the above referring to others and not to ImAHebrew and myself, why then did you throw out a blanket statement concerning those who espouse this doctrine when you know full well that ImAHebrew and I do espouse the teaching that Messiah was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? Your wording should have been "some who espouse this doctrine, as they say, and there are some who espouse the teaching that HE arose from the dead at 3 PM on Saturday evening, as they say," if it was truly only your desire to express that there exists a variation of belief concerning the veracity of the Sign as indicated by Messiah in Matthew 12:40. If you would have done so, then you would have received no objection from me.
            I do not believe, Eliyah, that you really are interested in the scriptures which agree with the Sign that Messiah gave because you believe that Messiah died on the 14th, that Messiah was in HIS grave on the 15th which in your thinking is both an annual and weekly Sabbath, and that Messiah arose from the death on the 16th which is the morrow after the Sabbath. Your belief rejects the Sign so why are you curious about any scriptural proofs concerning the death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection of Messiah Yahushua? Are you sincerely seeking to change your denial of Messiah's Sign?
            Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
            Sincerely, Latuwr
            Spying, are you and Ken still disciple's of Armstrong? Spying, there are others that believe differently than you and Ken on this matter, and I was not referring specifically to the both of YOU in thee above as you assumed! Also, I was hoping to stimulate others in discussing this matter as well, however, as I said before, it seems this forum is all but dead.

            We both believe that Messiah was buried late Wednesday evening,
            Where is your scriptures that state this??

            Ken said this...
            If you really want to argue the point, I will say that He rose as the 1st day of the week was beginning (at sunset).
            Show me the scriptural texts itself that says this??

            Here is Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

            I want YOU to answer some questions on this verse using scriptures as your proof, and NOT your own ideas of what you think this text says, and there is a difference. What YOU and KEN think the scriptures say is NOT what thee scriptures themselves do say, and there is a huge difference. The scriptures say, thy word is truth John 17, and not what you think it says. Anything the scriptures DO NOT SAY itself, is an untruth, or a command of men.

            Where are the words tomb, sepulcher, or grave is used in this text? Show me other scriptures, that uses the term in the heart of the earth means "the grave, sepulcher, or tomb "?

            Where did Messiah speak of His death in this text? Where did Messiah speak of His resurrection in this text?

            Where does Jonah say, that he died for 3 days and 3 nights? Where does Jonah say, that he was resurrected from being dead?

            Surely, if what you say is true, then you will provide me with scriptural texts itself that really do say, and answer all these questions?

            I'll be waiting to see the scriptures answer themselves on these questions, and I do not want to see Spying, chapter 0:0, and Ken chapter 0:0 own ideas about these questions, and scriptures.

            Shalom,
            Eliyahu C.

            Comment


            • #7
              Spying and Ken.

              Spying and ImAHebrew,

              I'm still waiting to see the scriptures themselves own answer to all thee above questions I asked. Are you going to show them to me?

              Shalom, YAH Bless!

              Eliyahu C.

              Comment


              • #8
                It's a matter of discernment.

                Originally posted by Eliyah View Post
                Spying and ImAHebrew,

                I'm still waiting to see the scriptures themselves own answer to all thee above questions I asked. Are you going to show them to me?

                Shalom, YAH Bless!

                Eliyahu C.
                Shalom Eliyahu C, it is a matter of discernment as to verifying the timing of Yeshua's resurrection. I'm not sure, but do you have any objection with the Scriptures which state the Sabbath was approaching as they hurried to get Him to the tomb, wrap and prepare His body, and then place Him IN the tomb right at sunset as the Day of Preparation was ending and the Sabbath was beginning? (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:42).

                Then we have Matthew 28:1 and John 20:1 which both indicate that Yeshua rose at the "end of the sabbath," as the "1st day of the week was beginning." And this just happens to be three days and three nights AFTER being placed in the tomb RIGHT AT SUNSET as the Day of Preparation was ending, and the High Day Sabbath was beginning. Do you have a disagreement with that statement, or those two Scriptures? It is obvious, your 16th day of the 1st month resurrection would not work with Matthew 28:1 or even John 20:1 as this was right at the "beginning" of the 1st day of the week (sunset)...the END of the Sabbath (sunset).

                Now, where do you find written in the Scriptures that Yeshua rose on the 16th day of the 1st month. Be specific, we want to see those Scriptures. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.
                Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                Abstain from meats offered to idols
                (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ImAHebrew View Post
                  Shalom Eliyahu C, it is a matter of discernment as to verifying the timing of Yeshua's resurrection. I'm not sure, but do you have any objection with the Scriptures which state the Sabbath was approaching as they hurried to get Him to the tomb, wrap and prepare His body, and then place Him IN the tomb right at sunset as the Day of Preparation was ending and the Sabbath was beginning? (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:42).

                  Then we have Matthew 28:1 and John 20:1 which both indicate that Yeshua rose at the "end of the sabbath," as the "1st day of the week was beginning." And this just happens to be three days and three nights AFTER being placed in the tomb RIGHT AT SUNSET as the Day of Preparation was ending, and the High Day Sabbath was beginning. Do you have a disagreement with that statement, or those two Scriptures? It is obvious, your 16th day of the 1st month resurrection would not work with Matthew 28:1 or even John 20:1 as this was right at the "beginning" of the 1st day of the week (sunset)...the END of the Sabbath (sunset).

                  Now, where do you find written in the Scriptures that Yeshua rose on the 16th day of the 1st month. Be specific, we want to see those Scriptures. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.
                  Why don't you first answer the questions I asked above with scriptures from Matthew 12 and Jonah?

                  Shalom Eliyahu C, it is a matter of discernment as to verifying the timing of Yeshua's resurrection.
                  Really? Or, are you believing a religious syop fairy tale about Matthew 12, and merely what you think Matt.12 is saying??

                  I'm not sure, but do you have any objection with the Scriptures which state the Sabbath was approaching as they hurried to get Him to the tomb, wrap and prepare His body, and then place Him IN the tomb right at sunset as the Day of Preparation was ending and the Sabbath was beginning? (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:42). Then we have Matthew 28:1 and John 20:1 which both indicate that Yeshua rose at the "end of the sabbath," as the "1st day of the week was beginning." And this just happens to be three days and three nights AFTER being placed in the tomb RIGHT AT SUNSET as the Day of Preparation was ending, and the High Day Sabbath was beginning. Do you have a disagreement with that statement, or those two Scriptures? It is obvious, your 16th day of the 1st month resurrection would not work with Matthew 28:1 or even John 20:1 as this was right at the "beginning" of the 1st day of the week (sunset)...the END of the Sabbath (sunset).
                  I have no problem with these scriptures, and I will deal with them later. However, show me where Messiah even mentions His death, burial, and resurrection in Matthew 12 at all?

                  You see, your like a 2 year old, that comes running in from the backyard, and screaming...""" Daddy, daddy, I saw a GREEN MONSTER in the backyard !!""" Well, what the "GREEN MONSTER" was, it was a little green "preying mantis" sitting on a bush limb in the backyard, that the 2 year old saw, and to the 2 year old, it seemed like a real GREEN MONSTER. But was it really?

                  Also, like many in the world today, they think that Christ-Messiah was born on Dec.25th in the winter, and THEY read certain scriptural texts, and they too think these certain scriptures proves He was born in the winter, and you and I both know, that Messiah was not born in Dec. in the winter. They too are like the 2 year old mentioned above.

                  I only believe what the scriptures themselves really do say, and NOT what I, you, and Spying may think the scriptures says, and there is a huge difference. Now, do you want to really remove that diaper from somewhere, and answer my questions above?

                  Shalom,
                  Eliyahu C.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok

                    Originally posted by Eliyah View Post
                    Why don't you first answer the questions I asked above with scriptures from Matthew 12 and Jonah?

                    Really? Or, are you believing a religious syop fairy tale about Matthew 12, and merely what you think Matt.12 is saying??

                    I have no problem with these scriptures, and I will deal with them later. However, show me where Messiah even mentions His death, burial, and resurrection in Matthew 12 at all?

                    You see, your like a 2 year old, that comes running in from the backyard, and screaming...""" Daddy, daddy, I saw a GREEN MONSTER in the backyard !!""" Well, what the "GREEN MONSTER" was, it was a little green "preying mantis" sitting on a bush limb in the backyard, that the 2 year old saw, and to the 2 year old, it seemed like a real GREEN MONSTER. But was it really?

                    Also, like many in the world today, they think that Christ-Messiah was born on Dec.25th in the winter, and THEY read certain scriptural texts, and they too think these certain scriptures proves He was born in the winter, and you and I both know, that Messiah was not born in Dec. in the winter. They too are like the 2 year old mentioned above.

                    I only believe what the scriptures themselves really do say, and NOT what I, you, and Spying may think the scriptures says, and there is a huge difference. Now, do you want to really remove that diaper from somewhere, and answer my questions above?

                    Shalom,
                    Eliyahu C.
                    Shalom Eliyahu C, here are your questions from your previous post:

                    Here is Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                    I want YOU to answer some questions on this verse using scriptures as your proof, and NOT your own ideas of what you think this text says, and there is a difference. What YOU and KEN think the scriptures say is NOT what thee scriptures themselves do say, and there is a huge difference. The scriptures say, thy word is truth John 17, and not what you think it says. Anything the scriptures DO NOT SAY itself, is an untruth, or a command of men.

                    Where are the words tomb, sepulcher, or grave is used in this text? Show me other scriptures, that uses the term in the heart of the earth means "the grave, sepulcher, or tomb "?

                    Where did Messiah speak of His death in this text? Where did Messiah speak of His resurrection in this text?

                    Where does Jonah say, that he died for 3 days and 3 nights? Where does Jonah say, that he was resurrected from being dead?

                    Surely, if what you say is true, then you will provide me with scriptural texts itself that really do say, and answer all these questions?
                    Well let's start with the "tomb, sepulcher, or grave." When Messiah gave the Sign of Jonah, He referred to the event that Jonah went through, and in that event, the word for GRAVE is used:
                    -
                    Jonah 2:1 - 2:2

                    1 Then Jonah prayed unto Yahweh, His Elohim out of the fish's belly,
                    2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto Yahweh, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.
                    Notice Eliyahu that when Jonah prayed to Yahweh OUT of the "fish's belly" HE compared that to being in the GRAVE (hell-Sheol-H7585-GRAVE). I would probably say that Yeshua had a good understanding of what was transpiring with Jonah and the "belly of hell-H7585" comment, and this is more than likely how He could see his DEATH spoken of in this Scripture. Do you not have to be swallowed up by death before you can enter into Sheol- The Grave?

                    Concerning your question about "the heart of the earth." Have you not read about Korah's Rebellion? Here is a rendering of it from the Bible in Basic English translation:

                    Num 16:32 - 16:34

                    32 And the earth, opening her mouth, took them in, with their families, and all the men who were joined to Korah, and their goods.
                    33 So they and all theirs went down living into the underworld, and the earth was shut over them, and they were cut off from among the meeting of the people.
                    34 And all Israel round about them went in flight at their cry, For fear, said they, that we go down into the heart of the earth.
                    Doesn't it appear that the "earth, opening her mouth" and swallowing up the rebellers, would or could be likened to the huge fish opening it's mouth to swallow up Jonah? And look at what the Israelites who witnessed this swallowing up said, "For fear, said they, that we go down into the heart of the earth"

                    And finally, concerning your question about the text of Matt 12:40 speaking of Yeshua's resurrection. Here again, Yeshua was referring to the event that happened to Jonah, and as with Jonah, so also with Him. Jonah viewed his prayer as being answered by having his life brought up from the GRAVE:

                    Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption (H7845-pit, GRAVE), O Yahweh, my Elohim.
                    Wouldn't Yeshua look at what happened to Jonah (bringing his life up from the GRAVE-H7845) as a SIGN as to what would happen to HIM? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.
                    Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                    Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                    Abstain from meats offered to idols
                    (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                    So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Please answer the questions with Matt.12 and Jonah.

                      Originally posted by ImAHebrew View Post
                      Shalom Eliyahu C, here are your questions from your previous post:

                      Well let's start with the "tomb, sepulcher, or grave." When Messiah gave the Sign of Jonah, He referred to the event that Jonah went through, and in that event, the word for GRAVE is used:
                      -
                      Notice Eliyahu that when Jonah prayed to Yahweh OUT of the "fish's belly" HE compared that to being in the GRAVE (hell-Sheol-H7585-GRAVE). I would probably say that Yeshua had a good understanding of what was transpiring with Jonah and the "belly of hell-H7585" comment, and this is more than likely how He could see his DEATH spoken of in this Scripture. Do you not have to be swallowed up by death before you can enter into Sheol- The Grave?(Does anyone really dead in the grave cry out and pray to YAH ALL MIGHTY?)

                      Concerning your question about "the heart of the earth." Have you not read about Korah's Rebellion? Here is a rendering of it from the Bible in Basic English translation:( Where does Numbers 16 use the term "in the heart of the earth"? And where does the text say, these people were resurrected? A grave is a grave is a grave, and where does Messiah in Matthew 12, even speak of a grave nor a resurrection? I see the GREEN MONSTER scene from the 2 year old here.

                      Doesn't it appear that the "earth, opening her mouth" and swallowing up the rebellers, would or could be likened to the huge fish opening it's mouth to swallow up Jonah? (No, because in the great fish's belly, Jonah was still alive, and not dead!)And look at what the Israelites who witnessed this swallowing up said, "For fear, said they, that we go down into the heart of the earth"

                      And finally, concerning your question about the text of Matt 12:40 speaking of Yeshua's resurrection. Here again, Yeshua was referring to the event that happened to Jonah, and as with Jonah, so also with Him. Jonah viewed his prayer as being answered by having his life brought up from the GRAVE:

                      Wouldn't Yeshua look at what happened to Jonah (bringing his life up from the GRAVE-H7845) as a SIGN as to what would happen to HIM?(No, because Jonah was not dead, and Jonah does not speak of his resurrection, and neither does Messiah in Matthew 12 either) Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.
                      Notice Eliyahu that when Jonah prayed to Yahweh OUT of the "fish's belly" HE compared that to being in the GRAVE (hell-Sheol-H7585-GRAVE).
                      Well, I'm sure Jonah thought he was going to die, however, did Jonah really die, and how could he pray, if he really was dead? Can anyone who is dead, cry out and praise YAH in the grave? Quote of scriptures...
                      For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalms 6:5.
                      Also...
                      For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5.
                      You also said..
                      I would probably say that Yeshua had a good understanding of what was transpiring with Jonah and the "belly of hell-H7585" comment, and this is more than likely how He could see his DEATH spoken of in this Scripture.
                      Really? Where did Messiah speak of His death in Matthew 12, and compare it to Jonah being dead or in the grave? Also, was Messiah NOT really dead in the grave, and did He cry out and pray to YAH the Father ALL MIGHTY like Jonah did in the grave as you say? You must really think so! Here is the 2 year olds GREEN MONSTER coming out again! Also, the term "in the heart of the earth" could also be translated "at the heart of the earth" and in any case, the words "tomb, sepulcher, and grave" are NOT used in this text.

                      Shalom,

                      Eliyahu C.
                      Last edited by Eliyah; 12-17-2014, 10:14 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Spying said....
                        please understand that My Messiah Yahushua arose from the dead at the very end of the weekly Sabbath Day exactly 72 hours after Messiah was placed in the Tomb.
                        See here post number 195.. http://www.lo-ammi.org/forum/showthr...ghlight=fourth

                        Please show me, where Messiah said, that He arose from the dead exactly 72 hours, and at the very end of the weekly Sabbath?? Please show me where He said this in Matthew 12, or any place else in the scriptures?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Many years ago.

                          As one of my Bible professors asked, and said many years ago quote..
                          Please show me one single text in Jonah or Matthew 12, where Jonah or Christ speak of their death or resurrection, and I will believe it? Do you even realize, there is not one single text in Jonah nor Matthew 12, that even speak of their death or their resurrection!
                          Unquote. And I do believe, he had a very valid point, and to this very day, that point is still very valid.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Messiah entombed? Where does He say this in Matt.12?

                            Spying also said...
                            You cannot explain HIS prediction concerning HIMSELF by your lunar Sabbath reckoning; therefore, you just like pagan Christianity deny that My Messiah Yahushua was entombed in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
                            See here in post number 195.... http://www.lo-ammi.org/forum/showthr...ghlight=fourth

                            Now, I want Spying to please show me, where Messiah said anything of Himself being entombed for three days and three nights at all in Matthew 12??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Then explain.

                              Originally posted by Eliyah View Post
                              As one of my Bible professors asked, and said many years ago quote.. Unquote. And I do believe, he had a very valid point, and to this very day, that point is still very valid.
                              Shalom Eliyahu C, I would honestly want to hear your understanding and explanation of what the Sign of Jonah means? What does three days and three nights in the heart of the earth have to do with three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish? Why even bring something like this up if it has nothing to do with Yeshua's burial and resurrection? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
                              Col 2:16 & 17 Teaches us that no "man" is to determine what we eat or drink, or how the Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moon should be observed, instead, The Body of Messiah IS to determine those things, just like what happened in Acts 15.

                              Now, The Body of Messiah determined that since Moses is READ every Sabbath in the Synagogues (Acts 15:21), the Gentiles would be able to HEAR (Luke 16:31, John 5:46-47), and then do those things to farewell (Acts 15:29). Those FOUR necessary commands that The Body of Messiah determined for the Gentiles, were FROM the Law of Moses.
                              Abstain from meats offered to idols
                              (Exo 34:15), abstain from blood (Lev 17:14), abstain from things strangled (Deu 12:23), and abstain from fornication (Lev 19:29).
                              So do not let anyone deceive you into believing falsely about the Law of Moses.

                              Comment

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