Persecution!

[OldShepherd]

This was posted by someone who has since deleted this and a later post, rather than engage in a reasoned, rational, mature discussion. This person felt it was acceptable to make insults about my "personality" and "deficiencies in my thinking" but bailed out when I responded. And while this person will not engage in a discussion here, he has taken this topic to another forum and there makes further insults.

"You are not willing to see the oppression that christianity brought into this world, in making JEWs its (*the killers of the messiah, Killers of the son of GD or killers of {GD in the flesh}*). There is, and has been, a severe burden in having ones name defiled in this way. It's an unpleasent thing to put up with, being christianities JEW in this world."

Stranger posted this,

"As you can probably tell, Jesus Christ suffering hardly amounts to a slap in the wrist compared to what the Jews have suffered under Christianity."

Many who claim to be Jewish feel, that all Christians throughout history are directly, personally, responsible for every act of violence ever perpetrated against any Jew, by any non-Jew and anyone who is not Jewish is automatically a "Christian" whether they actually are or not.

Anti-Christians Jews allege that the New Testament is anti-Semitic because it uses the term "The Jews", and "The Jews" are depicted opposing and persecuting Jesus and Christians.

Did Jews in the early years of Christianity persecute Christians? Or are the New Testament accounts false? If the accounts are false, then Jewish writings should show acceptance of Christians and at least tolerance, if not acceptance, of their teachings.

Some quotes from the Talmud.

"it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common feast day; R. Akiba says, as for all Israelite on a feast day; R. Jose says, it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common or week day:'' T. Bab. Ceritot, fol. 9. 1. Piske Tosaphot Yebamot. art. 84. Maimon. Hilch. Sabbat, c. 20. sect. 14.

``a Gentile that keeps the sabbath before he is circumcised, is guilty of death, because it is not commanded him.'' Debarim Rabba, sect. 1. fol. 234. 4.

``if a Gentile sabbatizes, or keeps a sabbath, though on any of the days of the week, if he makes or appoints it as a sabbath for himself, he is guilty of the same.'' T. Bab. Betza, fol. 16. 1. Seder Tephillot, fol. 76. 1. Ed. Amtst.

``concerning the rest of an ass, thou (O Israelite!) art commanded; but concerning the rest of a Gentile, thou art not commanded.'' Bartenora in Misn. Sabbat, c. 24. sect. 1.

Here are other actual Jewish quotes,

The law can not and does not recognize the right of demented persons, minors, or aliens (i.e. Gentiles) to hold property.

Whatever charity the Gentiles practice is really sinful, the motive being self-glorification. (R. Eliezer) Joshua is of the same opinion, alleging that whatever charitable actions the Gentiles do is done to extend their kingdom. Gamaliel also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles by their impure motive, incur penalty of Gehenna. (p. 616)

Note, R. Gamaliel was contemporary with the N.T. writers.

According to him [Eliezer b, Hyrcanus] the mind of every non-Jew is always intent upon idolatry (Git. 45b) The cattle of a heathen is unfit for sacrifices ('Ab. Zarah 23b)

The Gentiles have no share in the life to come. (Tosef., Sanh. Xiii. 2) Sanh. 105a)

Eleazar of Modi'im, in reference to Micah iv. 5, explains that Israel, though guilty of the same sins as the Gentiles, will not enter hell, while the Gentiles will. (Cant. R. ii. 1.)

Simon ben Yohai is primarily the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword tau-waw-beth (yer. Kid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek, Beshallah, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20) is found the expression often quoted by anti-Semites, "Tob shebe-goyyim harog" (=the best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed.)

Note, here if a Gentile merely quotes what the Talmud actually says they are anti-Semitic. While those who are anti-Christian are free to say anything against Christians, regardless how inflammatory.

Judah ben 'Illai recommends the daily recital of the benediction. "Blessed be Thou. . .who hast not made me a goi" (Tosef., Ber. Vii. 18: Men.) (Pg. 617)

With regard to the text, "this is the law when a man dieth in a tent" (Num xix. 14), they held that only Israelites are men, quoting the prophet, "Ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men. (Ezek. xxxiv. 31); gentiles they classed not as men but as barbarians (B.M. 108b)(Pg. 619)

Patriotism and a desire to regain a settlement in the Holy Land induced the Rabbis in order not to delay the consummation of a transfer of property in Palestine from a Gentile to a Jew, to permit the deed to be written on the Sabbath, an act otherwise prohibited. (B.K. 80b) (Pg. 619-20)

This dates to the return of the Jews from Babylon.

"The Torah outlawed the issue (i.e. child) of a Gentile as that of a beast. " (Mik. Viii. 4 referring to Ezek. l.c.)(Pg. 621)

What anti-Semitic book are these from? The Jewish Encyclopedia, KTAV Publishing, Isidore Singer, PhD. Ed., 1901. Page numbers as indicated. The Jewish Encyclopedia is not available online, but I have personally verified the above quotes. There are several online sites which have these and several even worse citations, from the Talmud, but I am not able to verify them.

The leading Rabbis, in the Talmud, which predates the first words ever written in the N.T., state that even the best of Gentiles should be killed, and their children are beasts.

Is it possible that first century Jews did notact on these rulings, by their Rabbis? According to the Ultra Orthodox Lubavitcher Rabbi Menachem Ben Schneersohn, "G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left. . . G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, [Jesus] lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.
(Continued)

[OldShepherd]

Persecution Continued!

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). . . The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king . . .who would wage war against the Jews (Note, how the term "The Jews" is acceptable here. OS). . .Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays. . .He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law.?thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda.

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a) .

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned) , was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh ?which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

Encouraging the abandonment of Christianity: "...according to the known Jewish legal ruling that Christians are idol worshippers.--Likutei Sichos 37:198, from a letter of the Rebbe dated 26 Iyra, 5726, cited in Kol Boi HaOlam, p. 389.

From a recent Shabbat service online.

http://www.torah.org/advanced/jerusa.../vayigash.html

After Yannai HaMelech brutally murders the Sages of Israel, Rebbe Yehoshua ben Perachiah, the repository of Torah in his generation and the Gadol HaDor, escapes with his life to Alexandria, Egypt. . . .

In his exile, among his students was a man who was destined to overturn the world - 'Yeshu HaNotzri' - the one who went astray.

The perverting of the actual Hebrew name "Y'hoshua" or "Y'shua" to "Yeshu" is an acronym for Yimmach Shemo Wezikro May His Name (and memory) Be Blotted Out. "HaNotzri = "The Nazarene."

The Talmud (uncensored version) describes a deed that leads Rebbe Yehoshua to recognize his student's true nature, and Yeshu is excommunicated before the eyes of all Israel. Sent away again and again, he tries once more to seek his Rebbe's assent:

"One day he (Rebbe Yehoshua ben Perachiah) was reciting Krias Shema when he came before him. He had in mind to accept him, and motioned to him with his hand. He (Yeshu) thought that he was pushing him aside. He (['Yeshu HaNotzri'] went, put up a brick, and worshipped it...." (Sotah 47a) Here is the parting of the ways.

If Krias Shema is the sign of unity, how can this also be the point of separation, casting aside Yeshu forever? Krias Shema is true acceptance of the unity of G-d's world, acknowledgement of the absolute truth that is the signet of His word.

Yeshu HaNotzri tries to worm his way back into good grace, and once again it's time to say Shema, to unite the world in pursuit of Heaven's word.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6274/#CHRISTIAN FALLACIES AND JEWISH ERRORS

But many Christians believe that if they commit a sin against another person, Jesus forgives them for the sin without the need for restitution or making amends. This kind of "irresponsible belief" has allowed many so-called Christians to commit atrocities for centuries without having to rectify or compensate anyone for their evil actions.

Did G-d intend for Christians to believe the way they do, because they descended primarily from longer-established pagan traditions and barbaric lifestyles than Jews? In order for the belief in one G-d to spread worldwide, did G-d, therefore, establish a special and separate "Plural Covenant" for the Gentile? And was this covenant twisted by the Greco-Roman mind set of the early church into deviant versions to placate and thus convert pagan people more readily to something that resembles monotheism?

As stated previously, the early non-Jewish Christian community was heavily influenced by pagan customs. Christianity and the eventual worldwide spread of knowledge of the one G-d concept might not have happened in a Jewish form. Rabbinic Judaism was too difficult and a burden to observe and too much of an educational, civilized belief, as compared to what the non-Jews had devised within a century after the death of Jesus. At least the pagan version of Christianity that was created was more civilized than anything else the non-Jews had up until that period of history.

Gentiles have always been steps behind the Jews (Note, how the term “The Jews?is acceptable here. OS) in eliminating their pagan ways of life. . . .Throughout history, the Jewish people have always placed education in a much higher regard than their non-Jewish counterparts. The Yeshivas that developed two thousand years ago resembled what we would call colleges and universities today. Education was one of the major reasons that success in the business world has come much easier for Jews. This has caused Christian jealousy toward Jews and has continued to fuel the fires of anti-Semitism.

[Spying]

Racism!

Hi Old Shepherd,

Sir, do you see how easily the forces of anti-Messiah are silenced whenever the truth is brought to light? Racism is racism. Judaism is racism. The faith of the Apostles opposed Jewish racism. They were persecuted and oppressed by their Jewish brethren because they knew and taught that Jewish racism is wrong.

Now, Jews would have us believe that all racism is wrong save for their own. It is a funny world. If we now oppose Jewish racism, we are cast in the worst possible light. We are called anti-semitics. If we do not oppose Jewish racism, we are lifting up anti-messiah, are we not? As for me, I oppose all racists and racism.

Sincerely, Spying

[Stranger]

Hitler made me do it...

Old Shep,
I remember going over the list of grievances that you have against the Jews. I can add some more stuff that you left out, but that is not my drift.

You should have added the statistics, too. According to your post I wonder how many millions of Christians were put to death by Jewish firing squads, or Jewish gas chambers. I would dare to say that the ratio is about 1:1,000,000. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Christianity seems to be vindicated of any wrong doing thanks to your clever posting. At any new persecution of Jews I am sure that the Christians will be quoting you.

I am not defending any Jew for killing any Christian. Although Paul is the first Christian on record daring to brag at every opportunity before the Jews and before Heathen rulers about how many Jewish followers of the Way of Yahweh he had put to death in his "past life" as a Jew.

Acts 22:3 (NIV) "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel (i.e. Hitler made me do it!) I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.
4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,
5 as also the high priest and all the Council can testify. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished.

Acts 26:9 (NIV) "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests (i.e. Hitler made me do it!) I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.
11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

If Paul were to be tried at Neuremberg, he wouldn’t get off the hook! Anyway, as a result of his getting away with murder, Paul must have left a lot of widows of all ages, young and old. Some of them were left with children to support, too. Do you think that Paul had a word of consolation or regret about it? The record shows all the opposite. In fact, Paul advances his puritan recommendation for the Christians to support the young and old widows, INCLUDING the Jewish ones that he made widows in his past life as a Jew. In fact he is saying that some of them are turning away from the faith to follow Satan! Those widows shouldn’t be supported, he says. Never mind that he had their husbands killed.

1 Timothy 5:3 (NIV) Give proper recognition to those widows (i.e. including the Jewish ones whose husbands I had put to death) who are really in need.
4 But if a widow (i.e. including the Jewish one whose husband I had put to death) has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
5 The widow (i.e. including the Jewish one whose husband I had put to death) who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help.
6 But the widow (i.e. including the Jewish one whose husband I had put to death) who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

1 Corinthians 7:8 (NIV) Now to the unmarried and the widows (i.e. including the Jewish ones whose husbands I had put to death) I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.

1 Timothy 5:9 (NIV) No widow (i.e. including the Jewish one whose husband I had put to death) may be put on the list of widows (i.e. including the Jewish ones whose husbands I had put to death) unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband (i.e. including the Jewish one that I had put to death),
10 and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
11 As for younger widows (i.e. including the Jewish ones whose husbands I had put to death), do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. (Hmmm… I'll be darn, I didn't know that I was going to cause so much collateral damage. Oh well what the heck! Hitler made me do it...)
14 So I counsel younger widows (i.e. including the Jewish ones whose husbands I had put to death) to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.
15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

Hey, Old Shep, don't you think that Christianity is so dysfunctional that it is no joke!?

Spying...

Sir, do you see how easily the forces of anti-Messiah are silenced whenever the truth is brought to light?

The forces of anti-messiah Jesus Christ may be silenced at this forum, but not my voice. At least, for as long as I can post in here.

[Spying]

Racism Kills!

Hi Stranger,

And I am glad that you responded, and I do appreciate the fact that you are posting here. All death from racism is wrong whether it be one person or a million. What Paul did to the early believers was wrong. What Hitler did was wrong. What the Jews have done to the Palestinians is also wrong.

Sincerely Spying

[Stranger]

No excuse...

...yes, and if Eichmann were to be converted to your brand of Christianity he would be immune to any prosecution, just like Paul is getting away with murder only because he became a Christian. He is on record bragging about his murderous escapades to a Heathen ruler. I see that you are missing my whole point. There is gross immorality in Christianity that nobody wishes to address only because the victims are Jews.

[Spying]

Mercy And Grace!

Hi Stranger,

I am sorry if I missed your point, and I will work to address it. Christianity has a problem as you say. The men that directed and participated in the slaughter of Jews were at the very least raised in a Christian nation. I do not know whether the leadership considered themselves Christian or not. It is obvious to me that the leadership of Germany considered Judaism and Jews to be evil, and it is obvious to me that a great number of ordinary Germans turned their backs on injustice. They saw the laws being passed. They saw the beatings. They saw the windows being broken. They saw the books being burned. They saw the property being confiscated. This all happened in a Christian nation populated by Christian folk. Why?

It happened because there is no accountability in Christianity. Christians, as least German Lutheran Christians, believe that they are saved solely by grace:

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of ELOHIM:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)

What this means is that German Lutheran Christians take no credit for their salvation. Messiah died in their stead to pay the penalty of their sin. They themselves confess that they are poor, miserable sinners. They are saved simply because of their faith in what Messiah accomplished for them before ELOHIM in heaven. They can make mistakes. They can be sorry for mistakes. They can go before ELOHIM and ask for forgiveness. They are always given forgiveness due to the merit (righteousness) of Messiah Yahushua. They have this forgiveness through faith. This forgiveness is from their perspective the grace of ELOHIM.

Jews, in the German Lutheran Christian mind, or should I say in Luther's German Christian mind, were the living, breathing, walking around deniers and subverters of this grace. Jews deliberately deny Messiah and his grace. So, they are to be shown no mercy. After all, if killing deniers of Messiah is a mistake, then it will be forgiven as all other mistakes are forgiven save for the mistake of deliberately denying Messiah and leading others astray from him. Thus, the very champions of grace and mercy denied mercy to the Jew. You will know them by their fruits.

Sincerely, Spying

[OldShepherd]

Lou,

"Christianity seems to be vindicated of any wrong doing thanks to your clever posting. At any new persecution of Jews I am sure that the Christians will be quoting you."

You are pathetic Lou. Is that the best you can do? My "clever" posting was direct quotes from the Jewish Talmud, the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Ultra Orthodox Lubavitcher Jewish site, and some current online Jewish sites. I know phony wannabe Jews don't want to acknowledge it. If you can present any evidence that anything I said was false, put up or shut up.

As I said previously, long before the first words in the N.T. were written Jewish Rabbis were telling Yehudim, "even the best of the Gentiles deserves to die." and "the issue (child) of a Gentile is outlawed as that of a beast," Do you have any similar authentic Christian historical documents which would make every Christian guilty of anything? Link them right here I want to see them, now. I'm tired of your lashon hara.

If you want to talk about guilt, you are just as guilty as I, or any other Christian. You can hide behind calling yourself a Jew now but the fact that you were a Christian for one second past the age of accountability makes you dysfunctional and guilty of every Synagogue that was trashed and burned and every Jew that was killed or beaten just as much as any Christian that you are constantly spewing out your hate on. You can put your little pious, self serving, "May Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel have mercy on all of us! down at the bottom and other than a lot of mouth what have you done to rectify it?

You, me, Paul and every other individual who ever lived will be held accountable for every wrong they personally committed, so my "clever" post does not vindicate anyone from or for anything. But it does expose your equal or even greater guilt! And you don't like that, you want to direct the attention away from you to all those "Christians."

Earlier on this thread you said, "This is as plain as it is. Yahweh made it plain also that everyone will die for his/her own sin. Yahweh hates to see the righteous dying for the unjust." if that is true then where do you get off constantly whining and harping, accusing me and "all" of Christianity of being guilty of the Holocaust and every other wrong ever committed against any Jew. Everyone will die for their own sin, or does that only apply to Gentiles? How is every Christian 20-20-40-50 years old guilty of the holocaust? You didn't say that? You implied it at least four times in this post.

"I am not defending any Jew for killing any Christian."

You most certainly are, unless you are giving them as much mouth time as your are the Gentiles.

Acts 22:3 (NIV) "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel (i.e. Hitler made me do it!)(Maybe the Nazis got it from the Jews. OS) I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.
4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women(Note, "both men and women" you conveniently overlooked this phrase in your little anti-Christian hate fest. OS) throwing them into prison,

Acts 26:10 (NIV) And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests (i.e. Hitler made me do it!) (No, not Hitler but a Jew. OS) I put many of the saints (Both men and women, see 22:4 above. OS) in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. (Both men and women, see 22:4 above. OS)

"Anyway, as a result of his getting away with murder, Paul must have left a lot of widows of all ages, young and old."

Can you read and comprehend English Lou? Do you have a vision problem? Are you dyslectic? Either you are suffering from some disorder which impairs your ability to read and comprehend English or you are deliberately dishonest and deceptive. It wasn't Paul who was in charge it was Jews, like you. What about the Jewish leadership, is it okay for them to get away with murder?

1 Timothy 5:3 (NIV) Give proper recognition to those widows (i.e. including the Jewish (More twisting and deception, this should be Christian. OS) ones whose husbands I had put to death) who are really in need.

I won't bother responding to the rest of the "widow" verses you twisted, it is just more of the same. It was a Jew, being ordered by the Jewish leadership to arrest followers of Y'shua HaMaschiach, simply for being Christians, not because they were Jews!

"Hey, Old Shep, don't you think that Christianity is so dysfunctional that it is no joke!?"

Once all the dust and smoke is cleared away, again and again it you who is proven to be dysfunctional, not only that but a liar as well.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
"just like Paul is getting away with murder only because he became a Christian."

But lets ignore the fact that the Jewish leadership, how many in the Sanhedrin, about 70, got away with murder. Were they Christian too?

"There is gross immorality in Christianity that nobody wishes to address only because the victims are Jews."

Remember this? "This is as plain as it is. Yahweh made it plain also that everyone will die for his/her own sin. Yahweh hates to see the righteous dying for the unjust." I'm a Christian and I want to see proof here and now that "Christianity", as a whole, men, women, and children, not individuals, that I personally am guilty of gross immorality in which Jews, i.e. you, are victims. And if you can't produce it then I'm going to have to assume you are nothing more than a mentally deficient, dysfunctional, lying, racist.

I'm beginning to get a glimmer of an idea about you. All the irrational hatred of Christians you are carrying around, how you are always on an ego trip boasting, no Christian can stand up to you in a discussion, your cult like "proof text" method of showing anything from the scripture, or any other source, and adamant refusal to acknowledge mistakes. You are a man with a big grudge and you are determined to get back at those who you think wronged you, in the only way you can.