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**Thummim** · 06-29-2001, 08:22 AM

"Only 500+ more years to go, and then I'll bless you with the Romans?"

...In Isa.53, the prophet addresses the "captives", who are termed "prisoners", and tells them that Isa.53 herolds their release from their own prison. The arguments for dating Isa 53 to its proper time, can easily be extracted from the text of the other chapters of Isaiah. Context is important. Little commentary needs to be made. You don't tell a captive people that their messiah will come in 5oo+ years. Neither need you imply that all taludists concur with each other. They don't. I listed all of Isa.53 to allow readers to draw their own conclusions. Here are some parallels which might further link Israel to {Isa.53's} servant.

Isa.53:7, --> (a lamb for slaughter) --> Jer.11:19; 12:3; -->25:33 --> {*Zech.11:4*}

Isa.53:8, --> (taken from prison ) --> Isa.10:4; Isa.14:17; Isa.24:22; {*Isa.42:7*}; {*Isa.49:9*}

Isa.53:12,-->(the transgressors ) --> Isa.46:8;

Isa.53:5, --> (the wounded ) --> Jer;30:14

It is apparent to me, that Isa.53 must be in the context and time of all the other chapters of the "later" Isaiah. Isa.52:11, shows Judah with the holy vessels in hand, about to leave Babylon. The servant of Isa.53 surely exists at this time.

....Michael

**OldShepherd** · 07-16-2001, 07:02 AM

No Deletions Here!

Thum,

You might recognize the subject if not the name. I don't think you'll have anyone here to delete the posts, so you can avoid answering them.

"...Carlos, Al?, Is this what you believe? --> ,that a virgin can give birth, that a man can be GD, that a man can get up from the grave {and others with him if you believe Mat 27:52,53}, that a man can be in three places at once so as to allow him to pray to himself, that a man can quite a storm at his command, can heal disease, can walk on water and turn the same water into wine, can place a mans ear back on him, so that it is healed instantly, even though a sword has just wacked it off some moments before, and can rise up into the heavens before the eyes of many witnesses. You can believe in such nonsense, and that the deliverer of the JEWish people can skip past the liberty that he is supposed to bring to his people."

I asked you specific questions about the "proof texts", which you listed. I pointed out the discrepancies and contradictions between what you claim the scriptures say and what they actually do say, verse by verse. And you have repeatedly avoided responding directly to anything I said. You keep repeating, "I think. . . ", "I believe. . .",, "My opinion. . ." Now, to further avoid addressing my questions, you get sarcastic, and argumentative and try to divert the discussion to something else. Although Apart responded to this, I can answer anything you ask, can you do the same?

"you believe? ->; That a virgin can give birth."

Do you believe that YHWH can create a complete man and a woman out of the dust of the ground? If that is true, then I don't have any problem believing that YHWH can create a fertilized human ovum or embryo anywhere He wants to, including inside the womb of a virgin. And until the middle ages, (1132-1204) and the writings of Rambam, (R. Moses Ben Maimon), neither did any Jew.)

"(you believe?- >) that a man can be GD."

NO! I definitely do not believe that, but I do believe YHWH can be anything He chooses to be, anytime He wants, including a man! Nowhere in any writing which I consider authoritative, is it ever stated that a man is, was, or ever will be, God.

If you want to discuss the N.T., then don't insult our intelligence, at least have the honesty and integrity to address what the N.T. actually says! Not your perverted cult version! If you do decide to discuss the N.T., I have an interesting quote from the Talmud (i.e. most JEWS), "YHWH said to His Word!")

"(you believe? -> ) that a man can get up from the grave {and others with him if you believe Mat 27:52,53}"

I could ONLY believe this, if the following scriptures are true. Do YOU "believe in such nonsense?"

1 Kin 17:21, Elijah raising a dead child., 2 Kin 4:34, Elisha raising a dead child.
2 Kin 13:21, Elisha's bones raise a dead man., Ezek 37:1 - 10, An "exceeding great army" of dead bones are given flesh, spirit and life.

"(you believe? =-> ) that a man can be in three places at once so as to allow him to pray to himself,"

NO! I don't believe "a man" can do that but I do believe that YHWH can do anything He wants, whenever He wants, however He wants, in any form that He wants, as He did in the Tenakh! Anyone who questions what YHWH can or cannot do should read this verse.)

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

"(you believe? ->) (a man) can rise up into the heavens before the eyes of many witnesses."

I could only believe this, is if 2 Kings 2:11 is true. Do you "believe in such nonsense?"

2 King 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

" (you believe? ->) that a man can quite a storm at his command, can heal disease, can walk on water and turn the same water into wine, can place a mans ear back on him, so that it is healed instantly, even though a sword has just wacked it off some moments before,"

2 Chronicles 30:20 And the LORD hearkened to Hezekiah, and healed the people.

Isaiah 53:5 But he (singular) was wounded for our (plural) transgressions, he (singular) was bruised for our (plural) iniquities: the chastisement of our (plural) peace was upon him; (singular) and with his (singular) stripes we (plural) are healed.)

You still have never given a direct answer to my question about this verse. Since according to what you think and believe Israel/Judah's sins were totally forgiven in Isaiah 44. Whose transgressions are these in 55:5? Who was wounded for whose transgressions?

"My faith certainly is more credible than yours."

IS IT INDEED? I have seen a 12 year old girl with a broken arm, who had absolutely NO theological agenda at all, sitting in the back of the congregation alone, healed instantly! X-rays on Saturday night - a broken bone, swelling, and bruising! X-ray on Monday morning, NO broken bone! NO bruising! NO swelling! I have seen a terminal cancer patient with one lung walk out of a hospital, after I heard her doctors say she would not live until morning. NO! I don't have any problem at all with healing. See my comments below about your "credibility", below!)

"That you can not see it in the context of the captive people being liberated from their prison, {Babylon} just shows your lack of understanding, in what youi are reading."

I'm not the one with a lack of understanding. I have addressed every "proof text" you have listed, verse by verse, and shown how you misstate and misapply every single one and wail and gnash your teeth and ignore what does not agree with you, as you have ignored everything I said.

"My faith is not yours. I except that Isa.53 is deemed messianic by many of the writers of the talmud. Why should that sway my opinion? None of these Talmudic opinions make (jesus) the messiah. It only opens a door to speculation."

You claim to identify with the Jews of the Holocaust but you reject the writings that they considered second, only to the Tenakh. You claim to be Jewish but you can't even identify the names of the verb forms in Hebrew, "Qal", "Piel", "Pual" etc. If you are going to presume to be an expert on the Tenakh, and disagree with those ARE considered to be authorities, by the vast majority of Jews throughout the world, don't you think you should learn a little about the language it was written in? Instead of just giving us your "pereh" opinion?)

"Neither is an author disallowed from refering to a plural people as a single person, if that is his desire."

I don't have a problem with the literary devices of any writer or prophet in the Tenakh. But the question I posed to you and which you have danced around, skirted, ignored, and evaded is, "Does YHWH, through Isaiah, refer to Israel/Judah with both a plural (we/us/our) and singular (he/him/his) pronoun in the same sentence? For example,

Isa 53:5 But HE was wounded for OUR transgressions, HE was bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace was upon HIM; and with HIS stripes WE are healed.

Is HE/HIM/HIS and OUR/WE referring to the same or different people? If so, who? This use of both plural/singular pronouns occurs a total of 15 times in Isa 53, vss. 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, and 12. And you have also avoided the related question, the use of 1st and 3rd person references within the same sentences, referring to YHWH and "His Holy One")

"I've got a feeling that you've been duped into believing what is not true."

I have seen this many times before in those who have belonged to mind control cults such as UPC, LDS, ISKCON, Unification Church, etc. I'm sure when you belonged to whichever cult it was, you were just as convinced then, as you are now, that you were absolutely right and anyone who disagreed with you was duped, blind, and hell bound wrong. And, then as now, you had a handful of "proof texts", which, in your mind, "prove" you were right.

(Continued)

**OldShepherd** · 07-16-2001, 07:12 AM

No Deletions Here.

(Continued)

But something happened and now you are embrace a different belief system. What you once fanatically defended as the absolute truth, you now reject as "nonsense", and what you once rejected, you now fanatically defend. Don't talk to me about credibility and being duped, my track record is a whole lot better than yours. Unlike you, I have never promoted or defended anything other that what I believe right now and I don’t have a credibility problem!

Which "truth" is the "real" truth, then or now? Oh, I'm sure you will say "now" but some years ago you had a different truth. Who is to say that some time in the future you won't have yet another truth? Oh yes, you can fervently, fanatically, deny it and swear by what you now believe but "been there, done that". You have done it all before. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that at sometime in the past you would have been angry, to the point of physical action, if anyone dared suggest that one-day you would reject the teachings of your cult and consider yourself a Jew. But here you are!

It have no illusions about convincing you to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I decided early on that would be virtually impossible. But what I can do is continue to point out your inconsistencies, contradictions, and false application of scripture and keep you from deluding others.

You keep insisting that Isaiah only refers to the Babylonian captivity. Consider these passages.

Isa 11:10 and in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Most Jews believe this was fulfilled on May 14, 1948, when David Ben Gurion and the Jewish People's Council met at the Tel Aviv Museum and proclaimed the establishment of the state of Israel, prompting the invasion of five Arab armies, the next day.

When the question was raised, "What will be our national flag?" David Wolffsohn, one of the leaders of the council, took off his Tallit, white prayer shawl with blue stripes, and said, "Why do we have to search? Here is our national flag." And since then the ensign (or flag) for Israel has been a Tallit with the maagen David, i.e. the root of Jesse. Who was the "root of Jesse" who ever stood for an ensign of the people after the Babylonian captivity? It certainly was NOT Cyrus!

Now as, no other time in history have the eyes of the Gentile world been focused so much on Israel. The Philistines, i.e. Palestinians, and several Arab countries who want to destroy Israel. Their allies, who profit from selling them arms and munitions. The former soviet bloc who sell those arms and munitions and still have Jews within their borders wanting to move to Israel. Israel's allies. In one way or another much of the Gentile world is "seeking", watching Israel. Did that happen following the Babylonian captivity?)

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

This cannot refer to deliverance from Babylon! Surely, if Isaiah was concerned only with the deliverance of Israel/Judah from Babylonian captivity, he would have at least named Babylon. But, it is not even mentioned. And when in the history of the world has the "outcasts of Israel" and "dispersed of Judah" ever been gathered together from the four corners of the world? Unless it was 1948, and afterward, when Jews from ALL over the world began to immigrate to Israel? It did not happen after the Babylonian captivity! See previous comment!)

Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

While this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled completely, the Camp David Accords, September 17, 1978 were the first thing even remotely resembling a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, since the time of Joseph. This certainly did NOT happen after the Babylonian captivity!

Now tell us again how Isaiah is ONLY concerned with the Babylonian captivity!

**OldShepherd** · 07-18-2001, 06:30 AM

"If we are to have a conversation about this post, I need to know on what we are in agreement, and what we disagree upon."

Well I guess we can agree that it is July and the year is 2001, beyond that . . .?

"Do you except that the captivity of the time, both Yahudah in Babylonian captivity and Israel {the northern tribes} as captives of Assyria, who were prophecied to go into captivity during the time of Jeroboam, are important to the author as subject matter?"

I accept that the Babylonian/Syrian captivities were one important subject matter to the author, not necessarily the only one.

"It seems unlikely that the author. . ."

Notice how many times you use terms like this and "I (don't) think. . .", "I (don't) believe. . . No scholarship, no exposition of scripture or history, just whatever "seems," to fit your presuppositions.

"Concerning many of the miracles of both the tanakh and the NT, I think of them as the creations of their author’s zeal. . .Where were these authors when these events happened? . . .authors commenting on events which they didn't always attend. . . My tanakh is wrirren more by men then by YHWH. . . .I don't believe in. . . raising the truly dead, a whirlwind lifting a chariot of fire into the heavens or any other such miracles."

Here is the major problem. To you the miracles, etc. are all creations of the writers imagination. Why stop there? Maybe all the events are made up. Maybe the Babylonian/Syrian captivities were just "creations of their author’s zeal"! Maybe it never happened or not to the extent these so-called "prophets" said.

Secular history records constant skirmishes between ANE nations. All sides, raiding their neighbors and carrying off people, property, livestock, etc. This included people their neighbors called "Habiru/Khabiri", who lived between Assyria, to the north, and Egypt, to the south. Maybe these so-called prophets just made up epic stories, or embellished actual minor incidents, to make their countrymen, feel good. After all, you said, "Where were these authors when these events happened?. . .authors commenting on events which they didn't always attend."

But then a contradiction.

"Israel {the northern tribes} as captives of Assyria, who were prophecied to go into captivity during the time of Jeroboam. . ."

You accept a miraculous prophecy of future events when it suits you. What is your criteria for what is/is not factual in the Tenakh? Just whatever agrees with your presuppositions?

"When Israel is in some form deemed a single, you have a plural people, that is more than one, being. . .envisioned as a single person. . .Why should I argue whether a word is singular or plural when I except that “many”, can be used in a singular sense. I’ve answered you many times."

I don't know if you really think you answered my specific questions or you are deliberately being evasive and duplicitous. I conceded that the Tenakh writers used literary devices, such as a singular pronoun to describe plurals of people. However you have not! See below.

"I posted a site to show you that I was not alone in my beliefs. There is nothing difficult to in understanding this tool of the author."

Where? I haven't seen any site.

"Israel becomes an all righteous people in Isa.60:21 In Isa. 44:22 the sins of Israel are swept away."

Your previous post.

"As to the state of the whole house of Israel, they are sinless. {Isa.44:22} This is their condition prior to Isa.53. They are pardoned. They have suffered as those who are not in YHWH’s wrath anymore. The people’s sins are at an end."

Qumran | Page not found

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscussion2/_disc43/00000068.htm

If the whole house of Israel is "sinless", etc., in Isa. 44 and 60. Then whose are the "transgressions" and "iniquities" in Isa. 53? Who, singular, is wounded for whose, plural, sins? The 3rd time I have asked.

Isa 53:5 (JPS) But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

"(jesus) wasn’t an unknown leper, rejected by his people."

Where do you get this leper nonsense? It isn't in the Tenakh! But it is in the Talmud! And you don't agree with the Talmud or do you, when it fits your presumptions?

"Twice he was even proclaimed a king by those said to be rejecting him."

You deny that he was rejected? You continue to insult our intelligence! If you had been born Jewish and never read the N.T., I could understand you not knowing what it says. But for someone who claims to have been a Christian there is no excuse for deliberately distorting it, as you do.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

It still seems strange to jump in excess of 500 years into the future, . . .in looking for a messiah,. . .

It doen't seem strange at all! Read Daniel?

"I make no claim as to being fluent in Hebrew. . . Then all comes down to an opinion. Yours, mine, or someone elses."

But you do consider yourself expert enough in Hebrew to contradict the majority of real Hebrew scholars.

"Your assumptions go with your personality. . . .The deficiencies of your thinking are locked up in the faith that you are trying to prove."

When you can't answer intelligently, attack the person! It works for Don, are you sure you're not him? I have confined my responses to issues. You don't know diddly squat about my personality. I am not trying to "prove" any faith, I am responding to public attacks on my faith.

"The root of Jesse is Yahudah, This is one of twelve roots. You ask me to place this in the post exile period. I can only say that it was Yahudah that became the surviving light to Israel. Judah may be the banner that is raised."

"Judah may be the banner?" And when following the Babylonian/Syrian captivity did Yahudah ever stand as an ensign, i.e. a flag or banner, or light to the "goyim?" The scripture says "goyim" not Yisrael!

"The holy one is YHWH. If you want to understand, Isa. 49:7, try reading another translation of it, other than that of the KJV. I know that you want to pull from the Hebrew, an understanding that most scholars would disagree with. . . .
…Thus said the LORD, the redeemer of Israel, his holy one, - JPS . . .
The confusion that you have regarding this text, can be cleared up by reading another translation of it. YHWH isn’t talking to the holy one, YHWH is the holy one.

And you might try reading my posts. All the scriptures in my first response were from the JPS! Note, his Holy One! You see, I have no confusion regarding the text. And you ignored the other verses I listed.

"Zerubbabel will rebuild a temple for the holy vessels that the people have with them. (Isa. 52:11).

Your favorite "proof text!" The people holding the "holy vessels", waiting to go back to Israel. How do we know this is true?

Maybe this is a "creation of the author’s zeal" Or "(Isaiah) commenting on events which (he) didn't attend." Interesting how the scriptures are true when they fit your presuppositions, but "stretching the rubber band", etc., when it suits you. How fantastically convenient!

"There is plenty of room for my faith."

What faith? Even Atheists believe that the scriptures are myths, legends and fairy tales.

"After the holocaust, I’m a little slow to believe in miracles."

Oh please do tell us how your people were persecuted during the holocaust. From your own posts I know, in 1964, twenty years after the holocaust, you belonged to a cult, which only dates back to 1931, and is very anti-Semitic. From your stated lack of expertise in Ivrit, I estimate you have been "Jewish" for five years, or less. How much did you identify with the Jews during the intervening 20-30 years?

"You are not willing to see the oppression that christianity brought into this world, in making JEWs its (*the killers of the messiah, Killers of the son of GD or killers of {GD in the flesh}*). There is, and has been, a severe burden in having ones name defiled in this way."

These comments will get a thread all their own, "Persecution". Coming soon to a forum near you. I'm sick of pseudo-phony-wannabe Jews, whose constant refrain is "We are persecuted'', sung to the tune of "We shall overcome." As if every Christian, throughout history, has a direct, personal, responsibility for the words and actions of every person who ever claimed to be Christian.

**Spying** · 07-18-2001, 01:02 PM

One OF The Few!

Hi Thummim,

Old Shepherd was one of the first individuals invited to this forum. I can vouch that he is very difficult to argue against because I have been there and done that. He will keep you honest, and he will sharpen your skills. I also vouch that I like and respect him as I like and respect you.

Sincerely, Spying

p.s. What did you do to make your last post wider than the others on this thread? Please, change the width back to normal. Thanks, Spying

**Spying** · 07-18-2001, 08:24 PM

So let it be written, so let it be!

Hi Old Shepherd,

Sir, please allow me to apologize to you in behalf of the Tzaddikim for the treatment that you have just received on this thread. You know how I abhor deleting posts. I am sure that you can recall how James on the EliYah Forum destroyed many a good thread by deleting his own posts when the going got tuff. The Nazis destroyed ideas through burning books. It is the unfaithful wife, the Sotah, who causes the Sacred Name of YAHWEH to be deleted in the water of bitterness.

I know how hard you work on your replies. I have always appreciated your effort and the quality of your posts. I hate to see your effort and work made meaningless. I could restore this thread. I have copies of Thummim's two deleted posts, but I don't think I will bring them back up. Rather, I will use this thread as a show thread to any other anti-Messiah hot shot who comes along complaining or boasting about Isaiah 53, and then I will refer them to you.

The Tzaddikim placed a time limit in which you can delete your own posts when this forum was initiated. We wanted that limit in place to prohibit the type of activity that has just occurred on this thread. Rules don't work to well, but if I could enforce a rule about deleting one's own posts, I would not want any post deleted after someone has taken the time to respond to it. So, if the Tzaddikim agree with me, I am going to move that we cut back the ability to delete one's own posts to 12 hours. If you have any suggestions or comments, let me know.

Should you make a reply, your post will be the last post on this thread, and then I am going to lock it up.

Sincerely, Spying

**OldShepherd** · 07-18-2001, 10:52 PM

Spying,
Shalom, I am dumbfounded. I have a hard time understanding why I evoke such responses in people. You might not be aware but this was a continuation of a thread same subject, same author over at QB. The managment there doesn't like my posts either and for quite some time deletes everything I post. So people are free to trash me and whatever I say but I cannot respond. When I saw the same thread here I had to respond. Thus my comment about "no deletions here." (I meant by managment)

I will not be making another reponse to this particular thread I have something further on the topic but will start a new thread. The title will be "Persecution" and I guarantee Thummin and those who agree with him will not like it. Unlike his comments about Christianity I will document everything I post.

If you do not mind I would like to see Thummin's last posts. Email me at [email protected]. Thanx.

Announcement

Isaiah's 53rd chapter in the context of its own time.

Isaiah's 53rd chapter in the context of its own time.

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