The Genesis

[Edmund Dantes]

Hi Edmund Dantes,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Welcome to Lo Ammi.

Lucy and I share a fundamental belief that the true nature of salvation worked for us by Messiah Yahushua actually means LIFE NOW right here, right now, for all those that believe and act on that belief.

Where Lucy and I fundamentally disagree is the nature of the actions required to prove our faith or salvation, that is, what exactly does it take to continue to live in the physical longer than the 120 years previously limited for man by YAHWEH (see Genesis 6:3). I think that I know what it takes, but Lucy is certain that I could not possibly have the truth here because of my practice of remembering the physical Sabbath Day to keep it holy and also my practice of physically observing New Moons and other Jewish Feasts and Holy Days. Of course, I also follow the Kosher food laws as best as I am able (see Leviticus 11). I will not eat pork, nor rabbit, nor squirrel, nor will I eat catfish, or shrimp, or lobster. These unclean meats are forbidden to me. I also abstain from eating anything (as far as I am able) that dies of itself or is strangled, and I do not eat blood.

As you have seen, Lucy views these actions rightly as "works of the Law". I freely admit that whatsoever Law I practice or keep in a physical sense, I freely admit that they are "works of the Law", but I do reject the notion or charge that my practice is a repudiation of the grace given to me through the Death, Burial, and 3rd Day Resurrection of My YAHWEH and SAVIOR, Yahushua Messiah.

As you have seen, I am more than willing to reason patiently and humbly with anyone who disagrees with me (see Isaiah 1:18 and 1 Peter 3:15). I do not by this admission guarantee that I will always openly or directly reply to a question or a charge against me or anyone else. I often will strive to answer a question with a question, but most of the time I will not directly reply to judgments or condemnations made against me or others.

Thank you for choosing to spend some of your time here at Lo Ammi, and, of course, thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

It's a little hard to find old comments so I'm starting this thread.

I'm not here to judge anyone on their belief, not of course unless people start damning others to hell. Your argument with Lucy is not one I'd like to moderate, It looks tiresome.

So a couple questions I'd appreciate an answer on, and I may continue after if I find the answers insightful.

Why does God require a belief when he has not left any proof of his existence? This is a question that pointing to a verse in a Bible and saying 'here' does not suffiently answer. I could just and quickly then pull any religious text and say they have the same validity. And what would he require since he is God, not like we'd have a choice in the matter.

Are you saying that the proof of someone's faith is how long they live?

This grace and works and who's belief is better that who's I'm not really imterested in. The protestants hate the catholics and the catholics hate the jews, it's all the same to be. They beliieve, good for them, why does it matter which way the synapses are firing? Everyone damning eachother to hell 4 not believing a certain way is really old. It never allows for an actual conversation, politics isn't good for anything.

If you wish to use the socratic method that is fine, we'll see how it works.

Lucy, you are a passionant believer and I respect that, if you wish to respond please begin another thread, your posts are very long and everyone argueing on one is really tough to navigate. Thank you.

[Spying]

Proof That YAHWEH ELOHIM Exists!

Hi Edmund Dantes or Lord Willmore (I am not sure which),

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You asked:

"Why does God require a belief when he has not left any proof of his existence?"

If you will take further notice of my discourse with Lucy, you should see that I have asserted that the righteous men of old inquired into and wrote about Messiah Yahushua (see 1 Peter 1:10-12 and 2 Peter 1:20-22). Messiah believed what they wrote concerning HIM, and Messiah went about fulfilling what had been written concerning HIMSELF. This to me is the absolute proof that YAHWEH ELOHIM exists. The fulfillment of the Law and the Prophet and the Psalms does absolutely convince me; therefore, YAHWEH ELOHIM has left amply proof of HIS Existence through the Death, Burial, and 3rd Day Resurrection of My Messiah Yahushua. If you are blessed to see and understand this proof, then you have been taught by YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua, and you will know HIM as I know HIM!

You also questioned:

"Are you saying that the proof of someone's faith is how long they live?"

Yes, for right now, absolutely! If sin and death are the enemies of mankind, and they surely are, salvation from sin and death would necessitate that we live and not longer die, would it not? Tell me, Edmund Dantes, do you expect to die? If so, why?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

[Lord Willmore]

When looking to bother someone online, googling their ideas or quotes and presenting some one else's argument is a good way to accomplish this. Also a good way to do research. Most do not expect to live more than 100 years. Perhaps they are lucky, perhaps it is a curse to live so long. Bodies are dying daily, healing process grows slower, reguvination takes more energy. Should I expect do die? Sure, not by choice, unless I find myself in a hairy predticament, or I need to keep valuable info from the enemy...but I don't have any info.Why though is the question you ask, not how. Nothing has not died, perhaps the question should be why didn't god make all life to live forever? If you were 200, i would assume god would keep you in good health, mobile, able to fend for yourself. Should we live in an agricultural society predators could make short work of a 90 year old in the field. So then a proof can be how healthy someone is, no crippling injuries, etc. No man has lived over 114 from what I recall. I would assume the aging would stop for believers.

So believing that a man rose from the dead, i would assume you are of the literal interpretation of the bible. I find the idea that he ascended to heavan funny and telling in a way, since ancients believed heavan was literally in the sky.

[Spying]

Literal Verses Spiritual Fulfillment!

Hi Lord Willmore,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You made this comment:

"So believing that a man rose from the dead, i would assume you are of the literal interpretation of the bible."

Yes and no. Scripture shows that a great number of men lived longer than 114 years. Adam himself lived to the age of 930. I accept this as literally true so in that sense I am a literalist. On the other hand, YAHWEH ELOHIM informed Adam that he would die in the day in which he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Of course, Adam did not die in the literal day he ate from the Tree so a day to YAHWEH must mean something other than a 24 hour period (2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4). If a day in YAHWEH'S sight is also a thousand years in length, then Adam died right on time, did he not? This type of reasoning forgoes literalism in this case.

In like manner, concerning the resurrection of Messiah Yahushua, I am a literalist in that I believe that Messiah's spirit reentered HIS physical dead body in the grave. When I teach that this Resurrection was demanded by the Law as found in the Red Heifer Ritual, obviously I am not teaching that Messiah was literally a Red Cow. This Ritual of Purification from the Defilement of Sin and Death receives a spiritual fulfillment in the Death, Burial, and 3rd Day Resurrection of Messiah Yahushua. So, it is my teaching that the Law has both a literal physical fulfillment and an exact spiritual fulfillment that involves physicality but it cannot be said that these fulfillments are one and the same.

If at one time men and women lived a whole lot longer than 120 years, why would it not be possible with the helping hand of YAHWEH Messiah Yahushua to greatly increase the life span of men and women once again today?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

[Lord Willmore]

When I 'recall'something it usually means I should look it up. So now that I had some time, I did:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/05/world/jeanne-calment-world-s-elder-dies-at-122.html

I am curious what you make of this? Did she 'choose wisely' as the knight in Indiana Jones would say? Reading through I think she killed her husband in 1942. Still, could be a saint. Reason I bring it up is I don't believe Adam lived to be 930 years, it being written down does not prove anything, no more than hieroglyfics are proof that the pharaohs carry their possesions to the next life. You seem to take it for granted that humans lived this long most likely as a result of your 'faith.' Would you not expect a reasonable person to question this? Most don't I know, they were injected at an early age, I would like to think I grew a brain that acted as an immunity by uttering the words 'why' and 'how' ate the end of every statement.

I did search for a short bit for scientific proof of humans living 200 years or more, I came across this:

http://toptenproofs.com/article_dinosaurs.php

Which leads me to believe most of the search will be soured with religious politics. Your trying to convince Lucy of your religion is akin to me trying to convince these people that common sense does exist, and with a little observation they can eat something other than fried food.

I would think with the help of god that anything is possible. If you haven't noticed though everyone who believes in god believes the other guys is a fraud because it's not exactly like theirs. Take Lucy for example. You both say the other is going to hell and you both believe a man rose from the dead! Everywhere you turn it's the same. Every conversation on the street, in books, on TV, everywhere. Someone else is wrong and they are the enemy. Amazing to observe.

Is Latuwr an anagram for Waltur? Thank you, Lord Willmore.

[Spying]

The Limitation Of ELOHIM'S Spirit!

Hi Lord Willmore,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

"Trying" is a weenie word. I do not try to convince anyone of anything; rather, I work to relate to others the truth that has been revealed to me. I engage in this work so that others are given the opportunity to be taught by YAHWEH ELOHIM as I have been taught (Isaiah 54:13 and Matthew 16:16-17)!

It is written that at the time of the Flood that YAHWEH limited the length of time that HIS spirit would dwell in men to 120 years. Prior to that limitation men lived much longer barring death by violence. Since this limitation of spirit occurred, very few men have lived longer that 120 years. Israel lived past the age of 130 (see Genesis 47:9), but, perhaps, not as long as Abraham who lived to be 175.

If our original ancestors lived hundreds of years, and if YAHWEH determined to shorten lifespans to around 120 years save for those individuals like the Fathers who pleased HIM, why is it not possible for men and women to live longer once again if the Messiah should come and give HIS Believers the gift of additional spirit (John 20:22)?

If the limitation of ELOHIM'S spirit limits physical life to 120 years (Genesis 6:3), why would not the gift of ELOHIM'S spirit greatly increase the length of physical life once again(Acts 5:32)?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

[Lord Willmore]

I wouldn't doubt a god of all can do whatever he wants. I'm not sure what else to tell you though, look around, it's not happening and hasn't been recorded, ever. In the Bible yes, but no where else. This is one of those places where when I read the bible, I say, " metaphor," if I'm tryng to make sense of it. It seems to me you are creating a self-fufilling prophecy here. Either someone died because they didn't believe or they did and were murdered. But guess what? They died, and there is only two ways to do that. Accidently or purposefully and you're covering them both, pretty BIG generalizations there. I mentioned to Lucy about the Forer effect. No matter what happens you can rationalize to yourself someone's death because it will fall under of of these two categories. Lived long and believed, short and died, or was murdered and who knows. The ancients believed gods were angry when they blotted out the sun and they would do whatever necessary to appease their gods. In reality though I think we are getting away from the original topic, I'm not trying descern every belief, the conversation would never end, only why god would require it. Thank you, Lord Willmore.

[Spying]

Understanding The Why!

Hi Lord Willmore,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Yes, indeed, why would ELOHIM make men and women in their own image, share THEIR spirit with them, give them commandments which THEY knew mankind would transgress, and then, at the time of the Flood, shorten the lifespan of the transgressors?

Furthermore, why would YAHWEH ELOHIM then turn around and, through the work of Messiah Yahushua, make it possible that the shortened lifespan be reversed and a restored length of life be given to some of us?

Would it be sufficient to tell you that in the Beginning, prior to the rebellion, that the ELOHIM wore or inhabited the whole physical universe in much the same fashion that men and women do now wear or inhabit our physical bodies?

What does it take for a spirit to inhabit a physical body perpetually? Would that be something of value for us to learn? There is no doubt as you have expressed concerning your fate (death as well as life is a self fulfilling prophecy) that unless something changes for you, you will experience death, and your spirit will be forced to leave your body. All that die learn why they die whether that death be a natural death in old age or death by violence. We are all here to learn the reason and lesson behind death. Without this understanding, we would not know what it takes to keep a spirit inhabiting a physical body perpetually. Turning from sin, is one key. There are other keys.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr