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The Last Prophetic Sermon of Jesus Christ

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  • The Last Prophetic Sermon of Jesus Christ

    Anyone studying the life of Jesus Christ in the NT will discover that there is an incredible amount of disparity on several issues among the different writers. The assertion that the NT was inspired by the sacred Ruach is really an insult to Almighty Yahweh. The same event is reported differently depnding on the writer.

    Some resourceful preachers have a field day on Easter season telling how badly Jesus Christ suffered. They go to great length describing the different techniques used by the Roman soldiers to crack a cat-of-9-tails on a bare back, and so on. Actually the suffering of Jesus Christ was brief and his death was swift and sweet, too. Even Pontius Pilate who was an expert at crucifying was surprised that he died so quickly. The most painful moments prior to his crucifixion were at the Gethsemane Garden where Jesus Christ really sweated blood at the thought of dying. On his way to the crucifixion site he managed to stop and do some prophetic preaching, too. Nobody can really believe that Jesus Christ suffered that much, except the Christians who need to believe that to make the guilt on the Jews that much more impacting.

    Luke 23:27 (NIV) A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.
    28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
    29 For the time will come when you will say, `Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!'
    30 Then "`they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '
    31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"

    In his final address to the people that he came to save, Jesus Christ had no words of comfort. He asked a large crowd of people including Jewish women that were following him not to feel sorry for him, but to cry for themselves because what they were going to suffer was much worse than he ever suffered. Then Jesus Christ wraps up his prophetic message with a statement that is totally contrary to the word and spirit of Yahweh’s promise to Israel. Apparently the writers of the NT were not well versed in the Tanakh.

    Psalms 113:9 * He settles the barren woman in her home as a happy mother of children. Praise Yahweh.

    Isaiah 51:3-4 * Yahweh will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of Yahweh. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing. “Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: The law will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations.

    Isaiah 54:1 * "Sing, O barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says Yahweh.

    Jeremiah 31:13 * Then maidens will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.

    Bear in mind that Isaiah 54 follows immediately after Isaiah 53 that the Christians use to prove that Jesus Christ is the messiah of Israel. I use Isaiah 54:1 to prove that Jesus Christ is a fraud. In the Tanakh Yahweh identifies himself fully with Israel, not so Jesus Christ. Obviously the Jews are not Jesus Christ’s people. One of the first statements made by Saint John in his “gospel” is that “he (i.e. Jesus Christ) came to his own and his own did not welcome him.” Apparently Jesus Christ credentials were lacking.

    John 1:11 (KJV) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    There is no record anywhere that any significant number of Jewish women wished to be barren and to commit suicide by asking the hills and mountains to fall on them, not even during the recent holocaust was there any significant report of mass suicide or suicide wish among them. According to Jesus Christ the worse is still to come. It is duly documented in the NT that Jesus Christ is unkind to the Jews, especially to the women and their children. There is no record that his prophecy about a mass suicide wish by the Jewish women ever took place. Christianity is looking forward to it so they can strengthen their faith seeing prophecy in the making. To understand the weirdness of Jesus Christ’s prophecy one has to remember that no woman is on record in the Tanakh ever wishing to be barren, but all the opposite. Practically all the examples are of women that were barren, but wished to have babies. To be barren or to remain a virgin is against Yahweh’s command to be fruitful and multiply.

    Jesus Christ sweated drops of blood to dramatize his fearsome suffering. Now he is predicting that the suffering of the large number of Jewish women that were following him was going to be so extreme that will put them at the edge of wishing to commit suicide. Jesus Christ had no words of any kind for any male Jew. Honestly, the Roman soldiers were awfully kind to him, too. They got somebody else to carry his 300-pounder cross all the way to the crucifixion site. So Jesus Christ didn’t fare that bad after all. Even to the last moments of life he managed to have large crowds to follow him. He was not really rejected by the Jews. Everywhere he went large crowds would follow him even on his way to the crucifixion site. His alleged rejection is one more statement made a few times by the writers of the NT “to fulfill that which was written,” they said, misquoting Isaiah 53. The fact is that at the peak of his career Jesus Christ begged Judas to go out and betray him “quickly.” A real funny thing occurred to me on the way to the forum. There is no prophecy anywhere stating that the messiah of Israel is going to be betrayed. The bit of the “30 pieces” in Zachariah has nothing to do with any betrayal. Anyone with 2 neurons in his/her brain and capable of reading can tell that.

    Zechariah 11:7 * So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
    8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them
    9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
    10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
    11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of Yahweh.
    12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
    13 And Yahweh said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of Yahweh to the potter.
    14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
    15 Then Yahweh said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd.
    16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs.
    17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!"

    While hanging on the cross Jesus Christ had plenty of time to discuss among other things the trip that the “good burglar” and he were going to make together after they expire. He promised to take the “good burglar” with him to paradise that very day. There is a bit of a controversy about where that place may be. There is no record that Jesus Christ went to paradise or to Heaven for that matter. After his alleged resurrection he is telling everybody not to touch him because he didn’t go to Heaven yet. So Jesus Christ didn’t go to Heaven when he died. Some Christians claim that he went to Hell to purge for the sins of the world and to use the occasion to do some preaching, too. The dream of every preacher is to preach in Hell where the chances for success are almost guaranteed. So we all must wonder where in the world Jesus Christ took the “good burglar” the day they both died. There is a bit of controversy on Jesus Christ’s flip-flop about being touched by a woman. It seems that nobody was checking with each other while putting together the NT.

    John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

    Luke 24:39 (NIV) Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

    In Christianity the rules are made as the game is played, I guess. So in much less than a week Jesus Christ got over his alleged fearsome pain and suffering. It surely doesn’t even come near the pain and suffering of the Jews through the holocaust alone. Some of them really suffered months and even years before they died out of physical and emotional pain. As I look at the record of Jesus Christ I can assert without a reasonable doubt that in spite of assertions to the contrary he doesn’t really know what human suffering is all about. I wonder why I never took a closer look at the claims of Jesus Christ. I wasted so much time in Christianity that is no joke. I was told what to believe. Then I was schooled how to tell people what to believe. Now I do my own thinking.
    "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ

  • #2
    Last Words!


    To those who have ears to hear:

    Most of us would desire to be present at the death of a loved one. We desire to say our good-byes. It is an emotional time. For those who have been there, they know that it is not easy. It is hard to be there, but I suspect that it is even harder in the long run to choose not to be there. It is not easy to tell someone in their last days what their life has meant to you, to thank them, to ask their forgiveness, to give forgiveness. We desire to give comfort to someone who is dying, to help them let go of life. We want to hear their last words. We want their blessing.

    Yahushua said:

    John 6:63
    63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (KJV)

    What does the spirit quicken? The spirit quickens the flesh. So, the words of Yahushua are important to those who are flesh and to those who have flesh.

    If the Words of Yahushua can quicken, then surely his last words are vital. Here they are together in one place. I hope I have placed them in the right order.

    Luke 23:28-31
    28 But Yahushua turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
    29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
    30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
    31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? (KJV)

    Luke 23:34
    34 Then said Yahushua, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (KJV)

    Luke 23:43
    43 And Yahushua said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (KJV)

    John 19:26-27
    26 When Yahushua therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
    27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. (KJV)

    Mark 15:34
    34 And at the ninth hour Yahushua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)

    John 19:28
    28 After this, Yahushua knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. (KJV)

    John 19:30
    30 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (KJV)

    Luke 23:46
    46 And when Yahushua had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (KJV)

    WERE YOU THERE? HAVE YOU HEAR HIS WORDS? Have you been quickened by his words? Would you please help me assign these words to the blessings listed below? Can anyone tell me where this list of blessings can be found? Whose responsibility was it to speak these blessings? On what day were these blessings spoken?

    ____________ 1. For the Law
    ____________ 2. For the Temple Service
    ____________ 3. For the Thanksgiving
    ____________ 4. For the Forgiveness of Sins and for the Temple Separately
    ____________ 5. For Israel Separately
    ____________ 6. For Jerusalem Separately
    ____________ 7. For the Priests Separately
    ____________ 8. For the Rest of the Prayer

    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


    • #3
      Hi Spying,

      I know all the answers that you came up with to discredit my statements. I was there before. There are very few people reading you web side so you shouldn’t be that overly concerned about letting the wrong people read what you have to say. I say this because I can’t understand why are you so negative to the truth. I am not talking about having faith to believe in Jesus Christ I am talking about accepting a written statement of an alleged messiah of Israel. All the documentation that I presented here is documented evidence of a phony messiah. The real messiah is not going to be like Jesus Christ for all the reasons that I outlined in my posts. When you are dealing with phony stuff you must bear in mind that anything phony looks very much like the real stuff. I strongly believe based on the record itself that the NT is phony. You are trying to flip the record so that it will conform to traditional Christianity, but any Jew can tell you that you are wrong. I know that Christians accept everything by faith. Also, I know that there is no alternative for the Christian religion. Subjection to Israel is out of the question. It is mandatory to wait for the REAL messiah of Israel to come and straighten things out. The real messiah is not the anti-Semitic Jesus Christ. You and I know that what I have stated in my posts is the honest truth at least in question form. All the crap (sorry if I lack a better word) that the NT is stating about Jesus Christ is just that. One has to be a dedicated anti-Semitic Christian to accept what you are saying. You and I know that this stuff about human sacrifice to pacify the Almighty Creator of the Universe is of Heathen vintage.
      "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ


      • #4
        Anti All Semitics? Na!

        Hi Stranger,

        You are absolutely correct: We do both know that Messiah did not die to pacify YAHWEH in a substitutional sense. That is paganism. I believe that Messiah died following a battle plan that is contained in the directives of the Law and supported in the statements of the Prophets. I do not relate to you what Christians teach very often. You speak more of the teachings of Christians than I do. I relate what I have been privileged to see from YAHWEH'S perspective. YAHWEH was reconciled through the death of Messiah, but this reconciliation only occurred because Messiah was able through his suffering and death to bring about the death of all of Mankind. I cannot prove that to anyone, and you are right, there are few willing to listen. Numbers have never mattered to me. I have Messiah as my example. He stood alone with all against him. While I have stood alone, I have never been alone. Messiah has always been by my side.

        Subjection to physical Israel is indeed out of the question. I observe the Sabbath in a physical sense. Gentile observance of the Sabbath is considered a capital offence by Judaism. They consider Gentile Sabbath observance a form of stealing. So, in their world, ruled by a Messiah acceptable to them, I would be required to break the Sabbath in some fashion each week; otherwise, I would be put to death for stealing one of their special covenants.

        I consider myself a physical descendant of physical Israel. I have rights and privileges that therefore conflict with many of the claims of the Jews. You could say that I am in competition with you and them in order to eventually receive what is promised. (Thummim, there may very well be a spiritual breach!) Christians are not concerned about the level of things required in order to fulfill the Word of YAHWEH. I am.

        Sincerely, Spying
        The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


        • #5
          Daughters Of Jerusalem?


          Who are the Daughters of Jerusalem? Do you have any ideas? Do you think that they are Jews? Do you think that one must inhabit physical Jerusalem before one qualifies for the designation: Daughter of Jerusalem? Maybe in order to qualify as a Daughter of Jerusalem, one need only to have an heritage that springs from Jerusalem? You know what? Maybe the City of Jerusalem represents something in a spiritual sense? If that is possible, then maybe a Daughter of Jerusalem also represents something in a spiritual sense? Maybe a daughter is not a physical person after all? Is Jerusalem a woman? Humm? What kind of woman is she?

          The Apostle John received this revelation from Messiah Yahushua:
          Rev 18:4-7
          4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
          5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and ELOHIM hath remembered her iniquities.
          6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
          7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (KJV)
          Who is it that entered into a covenant relationship with the King of Heaven and Earth. Who is it that refuses to believe that she is a widow? How could a prophecy concerning the Daughters of a widow be a blessing for the Law?

          Sincerely, Spying
          The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


          • #6
            Spying, are you coming up with a new religion?

            When you tell me that I am “absolutely correct,” I immediately jump on my guard. You are still a Christian. I do not see any redeeming qualities whatsoever in Christianity or in Jesus Christ. I believe that the character of Jesus Christ was manipulated to conform to some prophecies in the Tanakh. Sometimes the prophecies were created for the occasion in the NT. The biography of Jesus Christ was put together many years after the facts. It was easy for the NT writers to make him the fulfillment of some things written in the Tanakh about the true messiah. There is nowhere written that the messiah needs to die and resurrect. That is a gross lie invented by the authors of Christianity. You are saying…
            YAHWEH was reconciled through the death of Messiah, but this reconciliation only occurred because Messiah was able through his suffering and death to bring about the death of all of Mankind. I cannot prove that to anyone, and you are right, there are few willing to listen. Numbers have never mattered to me. I have Messiah as my example. He stood alone with all against him. While I have stood alone, I have never been alone. Messiah has always been by my side.
            I see that you believe in a new fairytale. I don’t think it will fly. Although, nobody thought that Joe Smith was going to make Mormonism a mighty religion. So maybe you will succeed, too. Hey, what would you call your new religion?

            You say that Yahweh was not pacified thorough human sacrifice, but that he was reconciled instead. Reconciled for what? Jesus Christ set up Judas to betray him. He setup the most despicable operation against the Jews that would have blown the mind to the NT writers if they knew what they were writing. Are the millions of Jews that were killed in the last 2000 years part of the price for reconciliation? Or are you saying that because Jesus Christ died for all mankind the millions of Jews that were killed by the Christians in the last 2000 years weren't really killed? And that the Holocaust actually didn't take place? Even if there was a actual Holocaust you wouldn't state that anyone died in it, right? Is it a spiritually correct statement to say that no Jew died during the Holocaust because Jesus Christ died for all humankind? I don't know maybe I am putting words in your mouth that I may regret someday.

            Did you notice that you are now presenting Yahweh as being “reconciled” without any judicial procedure. The death of Jesus Christ was swift and sweet. He hardly suffered at all. He managed to inflict a lot of pain and suffering to MILLIONS of Jews. MILLIONS of them died because of him. They died after days and months and years of torture while Jesus Christ’s “suffering and death” was hardly a slap in the wrist. Nothing compares to what the Jews suffered in the last 200 years. AND YOU KNOW IT. It is obvious that what you have in Jesus Christ is a crutch. He is your idol. It is ugly and totally dysfunctional, but it still works for you. Your “reconciliation theology” doesn’t work. It is like so many other quack feel good drugs. You get a little high on Jesus Christ, espiritually speaking and that’s it. Let me prove to you that Almighty Yahweh doesn’t need a human sacrifice to “reconcile” or to forgive anyone.

            2 Samuel 12:13 * Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against Yahweh." Nathan replied, "Yahweh has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.”

            Psalms 85:2 * You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins.

            Spying, do you see how Almighty Yahweh works? He forgives sins and death on the spot without the need of any suffering and death (i.e. human sacrifice). Jesus Christ is pictured in the NT as doing the same, too. He set himself on the same level with the Almighty to forgive sins on the spot. The Jesus Christ/Nathan difference is that Nathan was a true prophet of Yahweh. Nathan was speaking for Yahweh. Jesus Christ forgave sins on his vested authority that he claimed to have “from the father” and he was actually doing it without any human sacrifice. He should have settled with that. He didn’t have to force Judas to betray him and then have the whole Jewish population in the world paying for it for the last 2000 years. Jesus Christ should have continued to make the miracles that are reported in the NT.

            Luke 5:20 (NIV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

            Matthew 9:5 (NIV) Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'?

            Jesus Christ is saying that to forgive sins is not a big deal even “his father” can do it, but to tell a cripple man to walk is a big deal. The funny thing here is that Jesus Christ is very selective on whom to forgive anything. To the Roman soldiers that were crucifying him he didn’t bother to forgive. He asked “the father” to do it. He could have shown a better heart like, “I would forgive them. How about you?” or “Hey, you guys I’m forgiving you” or something like that. Jesus Christ opted to order “his father” to forgive them. Was his sin-forgiving power wearing out? I honestly don’t know who Jesus Christ’s “father” is. I am not much anymore into Christian Heathenism. It seems to be that Jesus Christ didn’t have a permanent authority to forgive sins. So he had to ask “his father” to do the forgiving. That is what Christianity calls, teamwork of the “Holey Trinity.” They cover for each other. Although the Christians say that when Jesus Christ was hanging on the cross he was under a curse. During that time the “father” was not capable of looking nor listening at him. So his prayer of “forgive them because they know not what they are doing” may have gone down the drain. The Christians also claim that Jesus Christ got the full load of the sins of the world so he because the worst sinner in himself. A sinner has no power to intercede for anyone’s sins, too. So I don’t know what is that stands in Christianity, anymore.

            Just before Jesus Christ went to “Hell” he gave out the “Holey Ghost.” So he went to Hell on his own “spirit.” The “good burglar” kept waiting for 3 days at the Hell’s lobby for Jesus Christ return from Hell. Now that I think of it, Jesus Christ’s agenda was full of activities during and after his alledged trip to Hell where he spent 3 days and 3 nights preaching to the “spirits” there. >>>1 Peter 3:19 (NIV) through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison <<< So as a preacher he was not without a crowd to preach. As a purger for the sins of the world, he is kinda lacking. I don’t believe that he did any purging. In the grave there is no memory or conscience so I am sure that he is still dead and by now his dust must have recycle a lot of times. I don’t see any record that he suffered in a sulfur and brimstone fire to purge for “the sins of the world.” His only suffering before his death was that slap in the wrist that I described earlier. So I don’t know how the “good burglar” got to Paradise. Maybe Jesus Christ told him how to get there on his own. I mentioned in another post that the Christians had Paradise conveniently located in Hell to receive the “suffering savior.” Later on Paradise was transplanted to Heaven where it is located now. Any preaching to the “spirits in prison” was probably done on a closed circuit TV live from Paradise. I hate to think that I may be contributing with my ideas to make more sense out of Christian mythology.

            Christianity is so dysfunctional that it is no joke. When I was a Christian minister I was very much upset by so many contradictions in the NT. I was trained to say that there are no contradictions. I was taking A and B. I assumed that A or B although contradicting were true after all. Then I was doing all kinds of contortions to make A equal to B so there won’t be any contradiction. I feel now like I was a drug pusher of the “spiritual” kind. Now I have no problem. A and B are crap put together to come up with the NT.

            Your remarks about why you are not keeping Shabbat are interesting to say the least.

            Isaiah 56:4-5 * For this is what Yahweh says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.”

            Psalms 119:111-112 * Your statutes are my heritage forever; they are the joy of my heart. My heart is set on keeping your decrees to the very end.

            Jeremiah 50:4-5 * "In those days, at that time," declares Yahweh, "the people of Israel and the people of Judah together will go in tears to seek Yahweh their Elohim. They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to Yahweh in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.”
            "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ


            • #7
              Capital Offences

              Hi Stranger,

              No! My religion is very ancient!

              Do the Jews today remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy? Do they rest from their worldly labors from Friday evening sunset to Saturday evening sunset? Do they refrain from buying and selling on the Sabbath? Do they assemble with each other on the Sabbath?

              Does YAHWEH hold their Sabbath breaking sin against them? In other words, Stranger, or anybody else that is listening, does YAHWEH get mad about Sabbath breaking? Yes, YAHWEH sure does! As far as YAHWEH is concerned, Sabbath breaking is a capital offence!

              YAHWEH entered into a covenant relationship with the Jews. The Jews stood at Sinai and said:
              Exod 19:8
              8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that (the) YAHWEH hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto (the) YAHWEH. (KJV)

              Exod 24:3
              3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of (the) YAHWEH, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which (the) YAHWEH hath said will we do. (KJV)
              So, the Jews entered into a marriage relationship with YAHWEH in which they agreed to obey YAHWEH. You and I need not search very far to find numerous Jews rebelling against their Husband, breaking covenant with HIM! So, if the Jews do not keep covenant with YAHWEH, why do you deny that YAHWEH needs to be reconciled with them? Sabbath breakers deserve to die. Now, YAHWEH, will forgive, as you say, but Sabbath breakers need to turn from their sin. How can YAHWEH in HIS lovingkindness and great mercy lead the Jews to repent of their sin? HE HIMSELF can show them the cost of their sin. This YAHWEH did do though the death of Messiah Yahushua. The wages of sin is death.

              Through the fulfillment of the Law, YAHWEH has already killed us all through the death of Messiah Yahushua. To be sure, this is a spiritual death which must be perceived through spiritual eyes, but YAHWEH is a spirit, and YAHWEH does act in spiritual ways which mankind cannot see unless it is revealed to them. All of mankind including the Jews have sinned, and all of us deserve to die, and all of us will die unless of course some of us are changed in a twinkling of an eye. If, in YAHWEH'S sight, all have died in Messiah Yahushua, then YAHWEH is indeed reconciled. HE is no longer mad at the Jews, and He is no longer mad at the world. Now, the issue becomes solely an issue of whether or not we all ourselves are going to be reconciled to YAHWEH. Do not refuse this grace of YAHWEH through Messiah Yahushua lest you make angry again the King of the Universe. Repent and change your ways while you yet have time.

              Sincerely, Spying
              The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


              • #8

                ...Spying, by your own book, you are judged as you judge others. Can you pass muster? You will say that (jesus) paid your debt. But by your words, you imply that he failed to redeem his own people. Either he is the redeemer of his people, or he isn't. {Isa.53 says nothing about the redemption of gentiles. {53:6 --> us all; 53:8 --> my people} So if you want any redemption yourself, you had better grant Isa.53, that you yourself claim, to also cover the JEWish people. In other words, you had better esteem the JEWs, a redeemed people. The salvation that you claim, does not belong to you. Shouldn't you assume it to belong to the JEWish people? The vindication you would claim for yourself, must belong to all JEWs first. In your own heart, you need to return Isa.53, to its rightful owners, and not take it as your own. (Deut.22:1-3) How can a JEW then be guilty of breaking the sabboth? YHWH tells you that the righteousness of his peoples is from himself. Isa.54:17


                • #9

                  Hi Thummim,

                  Redemption is perhaps the most difficult of all the functions of the Law to put into proper perspective. Whenever we seek to understand these functions, we must always go back and see what the Law requires. So, Leviticus 25 should be considered as well as any other regulations concerning redemption. Under the Law, the Jews are told that they strangers and sojourners with YAHWEH. The LAND belongs to HIM:
                  Lev 25:23
                  23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me. (KJV)
                  If the Land belongs to YAHWEH, why do you now say that the Land belongs to the Jews? Did YAHWEH sell it to them? If so, what is the price that the Jews paid for the Land? Does YAHWEH as the original owner have the option to redeem the Land from the Jews? These are the type of questions which give indication of how issues such as redemption should be approached.

                  People can also be redeemed:
                  Lev 25:47-49
                  47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
                  48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
                  49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. (KJV)
                  Did the Jews ever wax poor? Did they ever sell themselves to strangers and sojourners? Did someone else ever sell the Jews to strangers and sojourners with them? Paul said this concerning himself:
                  Rom 7:14
                  14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (KJV)
                  Is sin a sojourner in the Land? Yes, sin is not a permanent resident of the Land. Paul is a Jew. How was Paul sold under sin? Did he sell himself or did someone else sell him under sin? How can one be redeemed from under the dominion of sin? Sin must be paid his price. What is the price of sin?:
                  Rom 6:23
                  23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of ELOHIM is eternal life (THE LAND) through Yahushua Messiah our YAHWEH. (KJV)
                  Under the Law, a Jew who has been sold can redeem himself or a close relative of the one who has been sold can provide the price of redemption. Did Paul redeem himself? Who was the close relative that redeemed Paul from sin? If the price of sin is my death, how can the death of someone else pay my price? Substitutionalism does not work redemption. Sin needs to be paid my death. So, if YAHWEH is the redeemer, YAHWEH must somehow bring about my death in order for me to be redeemed. Who did YAHWEH use to bring about my death? Thanks be to YAHWEH for Yahushua, my redeemer!! If one is indeed redeemed from under sin, if one has indeed died with Messiah, how does the one redeemed prove that redemption has occurred? These are the type of questions that I am inclined to discuss, Thummim, should you have a desire to truly debate redemption with me.

                  When we put redemption in a lawful context, we can more easily recognize and understand how Satan has been able to twist the writings of our dear Jewish brother, Paul, in order to further the dominion of sin in the LAND.

                  Have a good Sabbath Day! (HalleluYAH, there is rest in all the LAND)

                  Sincerely, Spying
                  The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


                  • #10
                    ...Spying, if a JEW is purchased by one deemed a stranger (a foreigner), he is to be redeemed from him by any method possible. These are YHWH's people. He doesnt want them sold of from him. The question here is not who owns the land, but who owns the people that YHWH calls his own. It's not the stranger that is redeemed. It's the Israelite. Where is it written that a foreigner is to be redeemed (from another foreigner)? And while YHWH maintains claim to his land, it is promised as an inheritance. Without this piece of land, the covenant ceases to be in effect as promised. We've got an "if - then" situation here. If YHWH's people walk in his way, they will realize their inheritance of the land. Take the land out of question, and this arrangement falls apart. While the JEWs are still his people, without the land, the covenant is "broken" and can't be maintained as given.

                    ...And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a GD unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their GD. Gen. 17:7,8

                    ...Now to maintain this arrangement with YHWH, the land "that YHWH promises" must be possessed. Two things YHWH gives to this covenant. He, as GD of his people, and the possession of the land. The land may have to be possessed in the name of YHWH. Through this name, the land of Israel can always be claimed. This may be why the JEWish people can maintain claim upon the land. Because this is four of the five letters of the name of the tribe, that is chosen to bear the name of GD. (Deut.12:5=Ps.78:67-69) The part of YHWH's people in this covenant, is to Keep YHWH's ways. (Eccl.12:13 --> Mal.4:4)

                    ...Quote, {Did the JEWs ever wax poor?} Are you trying to imply that the JEWish people aren't promised redemption? Redemption is promised to JEWs throughout the tanakh. Show me where this redemption is promised to Foreigners, except they add themselves to the JEWish people. Gentile redemption is a very vague concept. The tanakh is very JEWish, even to the name of YHWH. You need to realize just how JEWish the tanakh is. Your kind of redemption doesn't fit the JEWish people very well. You cannot concede to Yahudeem, that which you try to steal from them. That is, their own redemption. The rest of what you wrote is like a foreign faith to me. I have to leave the context of the tanakh to make any sense of it. Me and Paul are not friends.



                    • #11

                      Hi Thummim,

                      Good day to you. I generally liked the level of your reply to me. You raised a number of issues that deserve response. Unfortunately, it is well nigh impossible to address all of them in a single post. Some of the issues we have covered in the past, and no doubt we are going to argue and debate them in the future. I cannot help but make this comment:

                      You have thoroughly raked me over the coals in the past over what you perceive as my anti-semiticism. I think you at one time said that I was like unto Balak. My attitude has always been to make no distinctions among men according to race because I view all men as one in Messiah Yahushua. So, all men are my friends until YAHWEH or the Assembly deems them to be enemies.

                      Now, I am aware that race does exist. My older brother, Paul, is a Jew of Jews. My eldest brother, Yahushua, does have some blemishes in his genealogy, but no one would seriously argue that he was not Jewish. You have just openly admitted to me that Paul is not your friend; therefore, he must be your enemy. Messiah is despised by you as a false redeemer of his people; therefore, he also is not your friend. I am surprised at you, Thummim. You seem to have a lot of Jewish enemies. Now, what does that make you?

                      Sincerely, Spying
                      Last edited by Spying; 06-23-2001, 08:51 AM.
                      The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


                      • #12
                        Hi Spying,

                        I am back on the Internet and ready to speak out for the oldest truth that keeps escaping you. I noticed the extraordinary efforts that you are making to ignore the truth in the tanakh. You new theory of death by proxy has too many flaws.

                        Through the fulfillment of the Law, YAHWEH has already killed us all through the death of Messiah Yahushua. To be sure, this is a spiritual death which must be perceived through spiritual eyes, but YAHWEH is a spirit, and YAHWEH does act in spiritual ways which mankind cannot see unless it is revealed to them…

                        Rom 6:23
                        23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of ELOHIM is eternal life (THE LAND) through Yahushua Messiah our YAHWEH. (KJV)
                        I am not sure if you are redefining the meaning of words to suite your newly founded faith. I will ignore the second part of your NT quote because you are inventing now that YAHWEH is an object and not the sacred name of our Creator.

                        By the way, you probably don’t read what you type or you are typing in a desperate mode to justify Christianity at any cost. You are defeating your own objectives, then. You state, “YAHWEH has already killed us all through the death of Messiah Yahushua” then you quote the NT to substantiate that, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of ELOHIM is eternal life through Yahushua Messiah our YAHWEH.” If I read you correctly you are saying that Yahweh killed the world’s population by killing himself in the person of Yahushua, whom you identify to be your “Yahweh” or “(THE) Yahweh.” I think that you accept the fact that Yahweh abominates the just person dying for the unrighteous. So Jesus Christ cannot have possibly died for anyone. I agree with you on this one, any substitutionalistic dogma is out.

                        So, are you actually saying now that Yahweh did a hara-kiri act to reconcile the world? Where do you get this stuff? Hallucinations and “spirituality” has nothing to do with real life stuff. In my days as a Christian minister I used to lie like crazy under the cover of “spiritual” interpretations. So you don't have to explain me about "spiritual" stuff. The NT is full of it. I must concede that you far outrank me giving out "spiritual" interpretations.

                        Spying, I proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Christianity is based on false premises. I can’t remember if you still believe in the Trinity, but one of the false premises of Christianity is precisely, “For the wages of sin is death.” So one has to let Jesus Christ to die in one’s place to be save. You and I know that this is totally false and contrary to the teachings in the Tanakh. The other false premise that goes along with this one is, “Without shedding of blood there is no remission.” I already posted on the subject that blood is not the ONLY way of attaining remission. A handful of flour among other things would do just as well and it doesn’t require a human sacrifice. If I recall correctly you agreed on the human sacrifice bit is a fraud, but now you are pushing this bit on, “For the wages of sin is death.” This is the quote that most missionaries use to gain converts to Christianity. It is extremely effective because it scares the heck out of any uninformed person. Christianity depends on it for its success as a commercial enterprise. As you well know, billions of dollars are collected on the scheme of “saving souls.”

                        Psalms 103:9-12 * He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever;
                        10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
                        11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
                        12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

                        Psalms 130:3-4 * If you, Yah, kept a record of sins, O Yahweh who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared.

                        Ezra 9:13 * "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our Elohim, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this.

                        Nehemiah 9:31 * But in your great mercy you did not put an end to them or abandon them, for you are a gracious and merciful Elohim.

                        Lamentations 3:22 * Because of Yahweh's great love we are not consumed, for his compassion never fail.

                        So you see, Spying, your categorical NT bit on “the wages of sin are death” is sheer nonsense. You and Paul are willingly denying Yahweh’s love and mercy and promoting human sacrifice for "reconciliation." Or, if I need to understand you differently you imply that Almighty Yahweh has performed a hara-kiri act on himself in the person of Jesus Christ?

                        You still seem to see the need of a human sacrifice performed by a suicidal maniac that goes by the name of Jesus Christ to represent the killing of all humanity for “reconciliation” purposes. How do you get ideas like these? Your new theory that Yahweh is in the hara-kiri business by proxy is so disgusting that I am surprised that you are pushing it. If I were to believe that Yahushua is Yahweh then the whole thing is even more repulsive. Don’t you have a sense or right and wrong? You keep coming back to me with classical NT quotes that contradict the Tanakh and you want me to believe the same way you do? I don’t believe that you will be successful among intelligent Jews. They already have a savior. His name is Almighty Yahweh. He doesn’t require a human sacrifice for anything. By the way, I dare not judge any Jew on whether he/she keeps Shabbat or not.
                        Last edited by Stranger; 06-24-2001, 08:01 AM.
                        "...and the truth will set you free."--Jesus Christ


                        • #13
                          Wolves can look like lambs!

                          ...Hello Spying, as you know, a wolf can come in lambs clothing. He can look like a JEW, sound like a JEW and yet be a wolf. If he takes a bite out of my flock, I esteem him a wolf. Paul is a JEW, who is a Roman and thinks like one. He would defile YHWH's altar with innocent blood. As to Yahushua, if he really wants to be a sacrifice for sin, why does he act like he knows nothing about the priesthood? He must present an ashem to YHWH. All sin is atoned for by ashems which are burnt offerings. Isn't the offering that he is thought to be, the one made for all Israel, once a year on Yom kippur? We have two kid goats here, one for the ashem and one to carry the sin of Israel into an unihabited part of the country. Who would the scapegoat be that carries the sin of Israel, elsewhere? We also have a bullock to give as an asham. These are presented outside of the camp as whole burnt offerings. They don't fit Yahushua at all. Isa.53:10 shows that this servant of YHWH, makes himself an ashem. Ash means fire in hebrew. No passover lamb can atone for sin. The blood of this lamb is used as a sign that the people of Israel are in covenant with their Eloheem. (Gen.15:9-18) This covenant is not for sin. It is a contract between Abraham and YHWH. With the blood of the pascel lamb, YHWH separates his people from the Egyptians and shows that this people are his own. The sins of this people are very much with them. No atonement has yet been made. That comes later. These early christians seem to have no Levitical knowledge at all. Be careful Spying, don't allow Yahushua to be your fuhrer. If he demands something of you, make sure that it is asked in righteousness. If you harm YHWH's people, even with the permission of (jesus), YHWH will hold you accountable. The only way to distroy the name of YHWH, is to distroy his people. This is how you tell the bad guys from the good ones. Don't whack any heads just yet.



                          • #14
                            I AM THAT I AM!

                            Hi Stranger,

                            "YAHWEH" is the Hebrew physical name of our ELOHIM. Like most names, the name "YAHWEH", has a meaning. In others words the Sacred Name can be translated. Maybe I am wrong, but I have always understood the Sacred Name in a physical sense to mean, "I am that I am". I have heard others say that YAHWEH means "I will be what I will be". Is that correct? All names can serve as objects. We can praise YAHWEH, can we not? When I say that Messiah is our YAHWEH, I am saying that Messiah is the "I am that I am".

                            That is what I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.

                            Now, how in all the world could a man become YAHWEH? What is the process? Is there a formula? In a sense I believe that there is, and I believe that Messiah was made privy to that information. He used that information to follow a plan of action. You have a record or description of that action in the New Testament. You now discount that record as being false. That could be a grave mistake for you especially if the "I am that I am" proves to be a family and not a single entity. You are betting your future that YAHWEH is a single entity forever apart from man. I am betting that YAHWEH through Messiah is in the process of becoming what HE already is.

                            I am doing my best to spy out the process of becoming. In doing so, I have learned to understand or have a sense that YAHWEH is more a way of becoming or being than an object of becoming or being. So, action or doing is the most important aspect of YAHWEH.

                            You can see YAHWEH in action if you observe the JEWS in a physical sense keeping or fulfilling the Law. You can also see YAHWEH in action whenever you observe the JEWS transgressing the Law. I know that this saying is a contradiction, but, before you discount it, consider this: There is a spiritual side to the Law. Whenever you observe a Jew breaking the Sabbath, you have a spiritual picture of YAHWEH bringing a sacrifice. The two acts are actually one and the same. YAHWEH does not sacrifice in the stead of anyone. YAHWEH sacrifices whenever anyone sins, and what is it that YAHWEH sacrifices? Is it not the life of the one who sins? So, sacrifice is a way of becoming. Sacrifice is the way that YAHWEH justly takes the life of a sinner and then transforms that sinner into a saint. This is what the whole burnt offerings are all about.

                            Now, what happens if a man should discover this secret and then determine to bring about the conclusion of sacrifice in a spiritual sense, the sacrifice of sacrifices, the death of all sinners? If you understand what is going on in sacrifice, or if you discover the internal workings of sacrifice, you can begin to actively participate and fulfill various roles. This Messiah did accomplish. I submit that if one accomplishes the works of YAHWEH, one is YAHWEH. I AM THAT I AM!

                            Sincerely, Spying
                            The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!


                            • #15
                              What is Justice?

                              ...Spying, if there is no ashem, then there is no atoneing work to compliment the idea of salvation through a sacrificial work. But if you think it possible, find one. An ashem is an offering presented by fire. If (jesus) is to be one of these, than his body must be given to the flames. {even the rest of the pascel lamb is given to the flames} Since his body is to be your body, and there has been no ashem as yet, won't you be included in this atonement? Won't all christians? It would serve christianity right, in that no other faith has been such a curse to YHWH's people, as the faith of christianity. It's the only faith that needs (bad JEWs) to build its faith upon. If there has been another faith more caustic to the JEWish people, than christianity, name it. The count of JEWish bodies, piles highest where christians live. A curse for a curse. Justice is not righteousness. Justice is ugly. What is just for those who have made the JEWish people, its JEWs, is not something that I want to dwell upon. I hope that righteousness, is more important then justice is, to YHWH. An oven for the ovens, may be the reality of your sacrificial faith. It's better that you learn to love the name of the JEWish soul. YHWH is moved by compassion for his people. Consider all of the enemies of the JEWish people, where has history put them. Nations have come and gone. Read what the prophets say, concerning the fate of those who make themselves the enemies of the JEWish people. You seldom quote these passages of text. You instead point out how "bad" the JEWs are. You seem unable to believe in JEWish righteousness. Yet you think that your own debt to YHWH is paid. Consider just who YHWH is. Do you want to meet him, having not yet vindicated his people? And if YHWH and Yahudah turn out to be the same name, what have you given to this name? One could do to the germans, what they themselves did to the JEWs. It would be just. But would it be righteousness? Are you ready to fall into the pit that your faith dug for the JEWish people?