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  • not the Plain truth - but- THE PAINFULL truth

    the painfull truth, the ignorant believed.....

    is this law keeping ministry [ but not the 613 -] worthy of respect, and worthy to believe against the truth of the Gospels and Epistles.?


    here is the history of a religious monster.
    http://hwarmstrong.com/herbert-armst...ef-history.htm

    can anyone explain to me truthfully - why i have to prostitute myself to believe a whore belief created by a religious monster, when i live in the truth of the way into eternal life.
    Can i ask, ''why I have to give up the NT grace and the finished work of MY Saviour, i daily live and breath, to be ruined by the RELIGION of Herbert Armstrong'?

    as i am not ignorant of the'' law of life'' verses '' law of moses'' [as one unit of 613 laws] - i am learned, in the university of the Holy Spirit and i actually know about Grace because i live in it.

  • #2
    what this religious man did not know is....

    the gift of divine grace, allows a believer to cease from sin and become ''holy is God is Holy''. The advent of the Messiah allowed a gifts to come into the world and one such a gift is GRACE FROM THE THRONE OF GRACE.

    WITHOUT GRACE we die.
    Herbert armstrong died yet lived within some parts the the law of moses [but not all of them so he WAS DECLARED QUILTY of breaking one law]

    how delusionary
    how sad
    how insane

    to know the bible but misunderstand what it actually says.

    i saw John 11 v 24-25-26 - and i already knew of Martha's belief - i know that - but suddenly THE VEIL WAS REMOVED FROM MY UNDERSTANDING and i KNEW FOR THE 1ST TIME the belief of My Saviour and what His true mission was -MEANING - to bring the truth of eternal life into the world so all believers could be saved, not to die and go to heaven, but to REMAIN ALIVE IN HIS BEAUTY OF HOLINESS and preach to all men THE GIFT OF LIVING HERE CORRECTLY. To be trained up to live here in the 'life of the Spirit'' correctly.

    TO REMAIN.
    Now one day Jesus told a man '' let the dead bury the dead'' - this was to a person under the law of Moses. This man under the law of Moses was a considered by Messiah - to be dead.

    only TRUE LIFE IS FOUND IN THE PERSON OF EMMANUEL.

    MY TRUE LIFE IS TO REMAIN HERE IN MY SAVIOUR - HE ALONE ALLOWS ME TO REMAIN, as i stay in the vine as ''His branch on the vine''.
    My death is now being swallowed up in His life as He breathes into my life by His grace as he has made me willing to be changed in the day of His power - now- i did none of all of these things not 1.
    GRACE DID IT FOR ME.

    SO how do i ''remain alive'' and how is my death swallowed up into His divine life and i become a divine life partaker?

    I do this because my HIGH PRIEST, Emmanuel, IS IN THE ORDER OF ENDLESS LIFE [see HERB 7] and HE prays to the uttermost over me.
    That is His responsibility and ''duty of care'' as My Shepherd. [ps 23]
    He looks after His sheep and none go astray as He shepherds them.

    Comment


    • #3
      the 2 men and their differences

      Messiah Emmanuel[ author of eternal life]
      Herbert Armstrong [died 1986]

      one man THE MAN PREACHED eternal life, and how this divine life sets men free.

      The false so called ''apostle' herbert Armstrong- brought more people into greater bondages and set none free for he did not contain the truth, He is a proven fake as is his own belief and excessive foul deceptive ministry.

      the world of corrupt vanity was part of H. Armstrong by his excessive acts of evil and he was a part of the religious Matrix.

      The Messiah was NOT a part of the religious Matrix and He does set men free via the Gospel and death has been abolished.

      the fruit, of the law of moses,- Herbert Armstrong [the inpart law keeping guru] was evil and he would be considered as a rotten apple by any sane minded person.

      so-to follow his personal teaching one would have to be as insane and rotten inside as he.,
      now that is the truth.

      should anyone wish to continue inpart law keeping of Moses no matter how sincere - expect the worst possible scenerio for your life.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dying For One's Own Sin!

        Hi Lucy,

        Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

        I am very grateful to Mr. Armstrong for a number of teachings, namely:
        • That Saturday is the Sabbath Day and not Sunday!
        • For introducing me to the Feasts and Holy Days!
        • That British speaking peoples in a physical sense are the recipients of the promises given to Joseph!
        • And I am especially thankful for the teaching that ELOHIM is a family!
        I learned these things through the ministry of Mr. Armstrong, and without his ministry, who is to say that I would have learned these things?

        That Mr. Armstrong did not believe in or understand the possibility of LIFE NOW is obvious. Mr. Armstrong grew older, and then died. Through his death, Mr. Armstrong paid the penalty for his sin whatever his sins might have been. I do not approve of sin, but I do approve of dying for one's own sin as the Scriptures teach.

        Grace does not save you in your sin, Lucy, and grace does not do away with the death of the sinner. The sinner must either die for his/her sin in a physical sense or die for his/her sin in a spiritual sense.

        Dying for our sin in a spiritual sense is supplied by grace in that all men have automatically been united in the death of Messiah through HIS spiritual fulfillment of the Law. This fulfillment of the Law does not do away with the Law; rather, it shows that the Law is still very much alive and active; otherwise, how could we affirm that we have died with Messiah?

        When the Believer expresses belief that they have died with Messiah, then the Believer has an obligation to prove that death, and how do they prove that death? They must repent of their sin, and then they must begin to do what the Law requires them to do. I agree that Believers are extended much grace in this regard because we are weak and must be given time to grow in our struggle to overcome our sin.

        It is difficult to come to repentance concerning one's sin when the sinner is not willing to admit that sin is defined by the Law. If there is no Law, there is no sin, and if neither exist, why do people like Mr. Armstrong and Mrs. White die?

        Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

        Sincerely, Latuwr
        The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          ok , if this is your arguement..Allen then why dont you keep the 613 laws

          ummm. keep ALL 613 laws, that need to sustain you and make you ''righteous''.

          Allen - a little too hard ?

          BTW - sin killed them - their religious carnal mind remained and they were unconverted.
          choice - die in sin
          choice - die to sin - the inworking of the Holy Spirit - He forms His church without spot wrinkle or uncleanesss - HIS WORK in a believer is holiness and a believer is HIS WORKMANSHIP.... not the works of the law of Moses.

          how are you going to establish the fact that you keep the law of Moses, when in fact THIS TOO IS A LIE, for you dont. the law of moses is 1 unit.
          dont you understand James warning
          infact you are in a loose loose situation.

          not 1 fact you supply is related to ''WE WHO REMAIN''.
          the truth is you believe a liar and a rapist and a pervert, you believe an ugly dubious woman -and have become trapped IN THEIR TRUTH, but not the bible truth.

          PEOPLE far greater in ''armstrongism'' experiences than I write of his madness and ill conceived teaching.
          Infact most of this evil has become ''splinted'' and disbanned.

          the whole mess became in disarray - the lie was exposed.

          you find this mess of religious corruption ''attractive'' like eve you have became beguiled by ''works'' and grace is missing.

          here is THE TRUTH...................

          Romans 10:4
          For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
          AGAIN from Gals.

          23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

          24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

          25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

          * held CAPTIVE, under the Law.
          Emmanuel said '' TO SET THE CAPTIVE FREE''.

          YOU ARE A DYING CAPTIVE ALLEN....deceived by a pervert.
          while u hold onto this lie from false people, you are a captive.

          Ephesians 2:15
          15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

          Comment


          • #6
            The Law Does Not Come To An End!

            Hi Lucy,

            Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

            From a lawful perspective, the English translation of Romans 10:4 is very misleading and actually distorts the truth. The Greek noun "telos" translated "end" is better translated "full performance or perfect discharge" of the Law. I would have you take the time to look at how this word is used in other verses to understand what I am saying here. Take James 5:11 for instance:

            James 5:11
            11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of YAHWEH; that YAHWEH is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

            Clearly, the use of "telos" in James shows its proper meaning. YAHWEH HIMSELF does not have an end; rather, the end of YAHWEH here is the perfect discharge or performance concerning the goal of YAHWEH in HIS dealings with respect to Job.

            In like manner look at this saying of Messiah Yahushua:

            Luke 22:37
            37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

            Messiah above is not saying that HIS reckoning among transgressors would come to an end; rather, Messiah is saying that everything written about HIM must have a perfect discharge or fulfillment.

            In a similar fashion, the Law does not have an end; rather, the Law has a perfect fulfillment, and that fulfillment of the Law by Messiah Yahushua is designed to make available the righteousness of YAHWEH unto all that believe.

            Scripture teaches that the righteousness of YAHWEH endures forever:

            Psalms 111:3
            3 His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

            The righteousness of YAHWEH is the spiritual fulfillment of the Law, and if the spiritual fulfillment endures forever, how can anyone say that the Law comes to an end?

            Paul also taught that "love" is the fulfillment of the Law:

            Romans 13:10
            10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

            Love is the most enduring of things, Lucy, and I say to you, if love which is the fulfillment always exists, then of necessity the Law must also always exist. The Law therefore cannot come to an end as you have the inclination and boldness to teach!

            Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

            Sincerely, Latuwr
            The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              NO Allen...

              the law was fulfilled 2000yrs approx ago at the cross meaning=
              satan overcome and death abolished. '' life in the spirit'' appeared as a new dispensation to all who will believe Him- then there is NO condemnation

              if the law still existed it would be alive and well today, working in the jewish nation as it did exactly back 2000yrs ago.'kinda ''same old same old''

              BUT History proves the law of Moses and everythng that went with it was destroyed in 7Oad - nothing was left. kaput. zilch zippo.

              a nation deserted by their God so sayeth Titus, who was an eye witness to its mass destruction, in fact he was ''the weapon'' God used in Jerusalem's mass destruction


              .the law of Moses permanently died in 70ad

              your'e clutching at straws man, when you fail to understand FULL ON KNOCK DOWN AND OUT DESTRUCTION, OF A WHOLE CITY AND A WHOLE NATION SCATTERED TO THE 4 WINDS.
              ummm....

              so - it was very apparent this LOVE was not found in the jewish nation and it was broadcasted out to all near and far, at the advent of My Saviour ''peace on earth and GOODWILL TO ALL MEN''... so peace was lacking and so was goodwill.
              ummm.
              WOW.
              ONCE DECEPTION ENTERS IN... nothing shall shift it but the grace of Father.

              so there is NO misunderstanding here...
              Almighty God the father, used the roman General Titus to mass destruct Jerusalem,
              the law, AND ITS DYING PRIESTHOOD.
              the temple
              the sheep
              the scrolls '
              the utensils,
              the whole deal - ruined and cast down nothing remained,

              infact the historian Josephus devoted 5 chapters of his books re = the destruction of this nation and its laws and people.
              yes indeed ''weapons of vengence'' by Father were formed against the law of Moses and ITS people who REFUSED THE GOSPEL.

              SUGGESTION
              WHY NOT STUDY THE WORD ''FULFILLED''

              Comment


              • #8
                My Paidagogos!

                Hi Lucy,

                Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

                Shabbat Shalom!

                You wrote:

                "not 1 fact you supply is related to ''WE WHO REMAIN''.
                the truth is you believe a liar and a rapist and a pervert, you believe an ugly dubious woman -and have become trapped IN THEIR TRUTH, but not the bible truth.

                PEOPLE far greater in ''armstrongism'' experiences than I write of his madness and ill conceived teaching.
                Infact most of this evil has become ''splinted'' and disbanned.

                the whole mess became in disarray - the lie was exposed.

                you find this mess of religious corruption ''attractive'' like eve you have became beguiled by ''works'' and grace is missing.

                here is THE TRUTH...................
                "

                And the truth is going to be painful for you, Lucy, for neither Mr. Armstrong nor Mrs. White had any idea of what I teach concerning Law and Grace. Consider Galatians 3:24. I actually love the Book of Galatians, and I am especially thankful to Messiah that Paul penned Galatians 3:24:

                Galatians 3:24
                24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

                The Greek word translated "schoolmaster" above is actually "paidagogos" which basically means "boyleader". The Paidagogos was a slave whose principal duty was to escort his master's children to school and then bring them home again. This slave was not the schoolmaster. The schoolmaster in the picture here is actually Messiah Yahushua, in other words, Paul is actually saying it was the duty of the Law to lead us into or unto Messiah.

                So, the Law was Paul's boyleader unto Messiah, and the Law was also the Gentiles' boyleader unto Messiah. If the Law was their boyleader, then the Law should also be our boyleader, right/wrong/maybe?

                I am curious, Lucy, did the Law lead or bring you unto Messiah? I can tell you for a fact that the Law was my Paidagogos, and I can explain how He guided me to Messiah, and I am well aware of what false Christianity teaches with respect to the Paidagogos, but I will give you a chance here to display your understanding concerning your Paidagogos. Be careful here, the Paidagogos has a large number of directions for you to follow if you are going to arrive at Messiah. I think that you say that there are 613. Do you think that you can arrive at Messiah by disobeying the directions of your Paidagogos?

                Can you give answer?

                Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

                Sincerely, Latuwr

                P.S. Hyssop will begin to install the upgrade for Lo Ammi Sunday morning St. Louis time. Any posts made after 8:AM Sunday morning will probably be lost so don't attempt to post to Lo Ammi after that hour until the installation process is completed.
                The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  allen...

                  armstrong and white Allen Made up THEIR CREEDS.... they wanted a carnal god from their own minds....that ACTUALLY they pinched from a guy called Miller.


                  Paul says in Galatians about those who unsettled their souls telling them to keep the law.
                  Paul says "They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them." You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
                  This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.
                  God has not told you to do this, but man."

                  so this 'god' is an invention of a religious mind and has nothing to do with the NT new creation nor the new covenant.

                  here is the truth....

                  Acts 15:24-25 "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law' -to whom we gave no such commandment."
                  you have been beguiled and cannot possibly be correct for the whole tree of the knowledge of good and evil [namely the law of moses] died in 70ad.

                  The surviving jews, also made up a 'god' to worship too straight from their own carnal minds.
                  These people R JUST AS DIVIDED AND CONFUSED AS THE SYSTEM CALLED ''THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH''

                  ...PUKE.


                  so now we come to Allen e Brown's teaching....[another carnal minded attempt to teach the mixture of law and grace and dupe the ignorant.]

                  shame and thank God for His mercy there is only 1 of you and you have failed to make 2.

                  No, the law may will be the schoolmaster but a NEW SCHOOL MASTER ARRIVED SAYING ''THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANY MAN TO TEACH YOU AS YOU HAVE AN UNCTION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT''.

                  SEE Allen i have NO need to be taught by man to understand A ''MAN'S GOD';.
                  [according to the NT] A NEW UNIVERSITY TEACHER ARRIVED at Pentecost.

                  I became converted BY HIM and then schooled to understand ''we who remain'' PERFECTLY.
                  Rom. 6:14: " But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
                  SO MANY verses written to deny the foul mixture of law with grace. How come u dont ''see'' them?
                  this is so amazing.
                  to be so utterly blinded. No man could do this only God could blind in such a manner.
                  now that is a REAL WORRY.
                  [ believing in some hybrid religion that is going nowhere.]

                  but here is the truth.....

                  Acts 15:24-25 "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law' -to whom we gave no such commandment."
                  let me ask this Allen...
                  why do you wish to smack Father in His face and stamp on the work of the cross what right have you got [as a mere man,] to stomp upon THE THRONE OF Grace as if it was dung.?

                  u are cheeky.
                  do you know the punishment for an 'unrighteous teacher' - just wondering.

                  here is the truth of the matter Allen....

                  Acts 15:24-25 "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law' -to whom we gave no such commandment."
                  ummm
                  How do you reconcile the historical fact, that the law of Moses was totally destroyed in 70ad? titus the roman general is HISTORICALLY RECORDED AS SAYING...'' I HAVE NEVER SEEN A NATION SO DESERTED BY THEIR GOD''.
                  it is on public record.
                  nothing of the visible law of Moses was left standing, their priest slain their sacifices destroyed, their whole way of life RIPPED AWAY FROM THEM - THEY DIED by their thousands, ate their own children, became slaves to other nations, their high Priest killed off.
                  NOTHING EXISTED - God blasted the law of moses to the jew, off the face of the planet - A HOUSE LEFT DESOLATE.

                  but this is not good enough for you Allen to understand as you have to pay penance for your sins in works of the law, by, not eating bacon - hey - Peter Had the same problem till the almighty FATHER CORRECTED him.
                  BUT no - YOU DISOBEY the direct advice given to Peter on his ''law keeping food idea''.

                  In Acts15:10
                  "Now therefore, why put God to the test, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear".

                  The law of Moses is not binding for the gentiles is made clear in Acts 15.correct
                  The Judaizers came in to bring the believers back into bondage.correct
                  The same as the Law keeping people of today.correct
                  ARE U GREATER THAN PETER NOW? and know more than GOD NOW?
                  UMMM. O you disobedient one you little red neck rebel.

                  WHAT you need Allen is DELIVERANCE from the OT -schooldays are over - it is time to live in the REAL WORLD and MATURE into ''being about the Father's business''.

                  also, to take away your ignorance - the law of Moses was ONLY EVER given to the Jewish nation and no other.
                  you were never a Jew and neither was Messiah.

                  you lie from the pit of hell, if you think 4 easy to do, piddly laws, [u keep] is keeping the whole one unit of 613 laws.
                  [it is pitifull that your mind is so deluded].

                  here is the bible truth - written by the Brother of the Saviour - who would know all about law keeping and all about divine discussions - you were never privy too - YET u know more than James - hey?
                  James told us all the truth of the matter. you tell us lies of the matter,

                  you fail the law keeping test Allen - failed and receive an ''f'' minus on your report card from your schoolmaster


                  James 2:10 states to break one point of the law means we are guilty of all, because it is a unit.

                  you are GUILTY Allen.
                  the whole of your life - is MARKED AS GUILTY before the throne.
                  and to ''prove'' your guilt - is it not true YOUR'E OWN HOME IS NOW LEFT DESOLATE.
                  YOUR HOME IS AS DESOLATE AS THE NATION OF ISRAEL IN 70ad.
                  UMMM.
                  ''HOW A MAN THINKTH SO SHALL HE BECOME'' - you are proof of this saying.


                  James 2:10 states to break one point of the law means we are guilty of all, because it is a unit.

                  ALLEN-THE-GUILTY.

                  James 2:10 states to break one point of the law means we are guilty of all, because it is a unit.

                  ALLEN - THE -GUILTY.

                  James 2:10 states to break one point of the law means we are guilty of all, because it is a unit.

                  you need to stop being guilty Allen for you only keep 4 laws some
                  angel-of-light brainwashed you into.....

                  it is a sad day to see you so deceived...
                  however i ask WHY ARE YOU SO DECEIVED? now that IS a worry.

                  Romans 6:14 states that as believers we are "no longer under law but under grace."

                  Gal.3:24: "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Israel was treated as a minor, being schooled in the basics of God.
                  25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor
                  26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
                  Allen if you remain under the 4 laws of Moses [not being a jew nor a 613 law keeping person] you are not A SON OF GOD = now that is the truth.
                  you may know of life now - but you dont live within the confines of it.
                  you have made up your own mixed up belief that fails both tests
                  #1 failed to keep 613 laws as a unit.
                  #2 failed to recieve the grace of God and faith that goes with this wonderfull gift.

                  Rom 7:6: "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
                  I serve in this newness of Life.
                  I dont serve the law of Moses as i was not a jew nor taught to do so by the Holy Spirit.

                  Acts 15:24-25 "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law' -to whom we gave no such commandment."

                  why are you lying to me Allen - why are you lying to any reader who visits here.
                  here is the truth,,,
                  The Judaizers [notice this - who went out from us ] but came in to bring the believers back into bondage.
                  The same as the Law of Moses keeping people of today.
                  Last edited by LucySmith; 10-08-2011, 03:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sinners Are Automatically Under The Law!

                    Hi Lucy,

                    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOLIM!

                    Well, Lo Ammi is upgraded, but a lot of cosmetic work remains. I think that the registration is fixed, and in time we will see. The counter has not been fixed, and that is a bigger problem to actually discover and fix Hyssop says.

                    Speaking of problems, you seem to have one with our Paidagogos. Paul in writing to the Galatians was writing to both Jews and Gentiles (see Acts 14:21-22 & 27, Acts 16:1-6). Notice that in Galatia, Paul circumcised Timothy. Paul supported circumcision in Timothy's case because by Jewish Tradition Timothy was considered a Jew because his mother was Jewish, and the Law requires Jews to be circumcised. Even so, Paul accepted and supported the decision of the Church Council at Jerusalem (see Acts 15) that Gentiles need not be circumcised. This decision of the spiritual Sanhedrin was absolutely binding, and their decision is still binding today. This spiritual Sanhedrin made no ruling concerning themselves that they as Jews should not fully follow the Law, but they gave a dispensation to Gentiles to allow them to enter into fellowship with Jews without fully following the Law. Gentiles like you and me still remain under their binding decision today, and if we were both back in the first century seeking fellowship with Jewish Believers, you had better believe that we would learn how to keep a whole lot of the Law of Moses through that weekly fellowship with them on the Sabbath Day. This was the hope of that spiritual Sanhedrin for Gentile Believers, that is, that Gentiles would learn how to keep the Law as they came into fellowship with Jews (see Acts 15:19-21).

                    So, Lucy, why do you judge me for keeping Law when all I am doing is following a decision of the Elders as I am commanded in the Law (Deuteronomy 17:8-13) and also reinforced by Messiah Yahushua HIMSELF (see Matthew 18:18) . I am just learning as they did hope and expect from and for us Gentiles. Give me time, and I will do better in Law keeping as it becomes expedient for me to do so.

                    Do not even begin to think in your heart and mind that the Law was destroyed with the destruction of the physical Temple in 70 AD. If the Law could be destroyed by the destruction of the physical Temple, then the Law should have been destroyed by the destruction of Solomon's Temple. But we know that the Law was not destroyed because Messiah was born under the Law, was HE not?

                    Anyways, back to the Churches of Galatia. Paul in writing to both Jew and Gentile in those Churches says this:

                    Galatians 3:24
                    24 Wherefore the law was our Paidagogos to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

                    Please allow me to explain how this worked for me. When I learned that my Paidagogos directed that I should remember to keep the Sabbath Day holy, I did so. When I learned that my Paidagogos directed that I should keep the Feasts and Holy Days, I did so. When I learned that my Paidagogos directed that I should not eat pork or catfish or shellfish, I stopped eating unclean foods. When I learned that my Paidagogos directed that I should tithe 10% of my income to the Priesthood, that is, to the Church, I did so. When I learned that my Paidagogos directed that I should tithe 10% of my income set aside for me and my family to keep the Feasts and Holy Days, I did so. When I learned that my Paidagogos directed that every third year that I should set aside an additional 10% of my income (this is not really what the Law requires, but at the time, I believed it was what the Law required), I balked. I found that this was too difficult for me.

                    So, here I am, Lucy, a partial doer of the Law, just exactly as you think me to be!

                    So, what I am I to do? On the one hand, I am obeying my Paidagogos, but on the other hand, I am disobeying my Paidagogos!

                    Please take the time to understand me here. I beg for your attention here. There are over 600 directions that the Paidagogos gives to each of us so that we might follow the right path to Messiah Yahushua. Allow me to say this again in this manner: The Paidagogos knows the way to Messiah Yahushua. No one can arrive at Messiah without following the directions of the Paidagogos. Woe to poor, poor, Ol Allen. I was failing in my walk to Messiah. This failure was unbeknown to me at that time, but under the watchful eye of my Paidagogos, HE saw my failure, HE saw my sin, but my Paidagogos had a job to complete, and my Paidagogos was not about to let me fail in my walk to Messiah.

                    So, what did my Paidagogos begin to do? My Paidagogos began to give me addition instructions or directions to guide me to Messiah, and the vast majority of these instructions revolved around sacrifice. What to do? I actually contemplated sacrificing physical animals for my sin, but gradually I began to see through the Scriptures that Messiah Yahushua was my sacrifice for my sin through my sin. In other words, through my disobedience, that is, through my sin, I was actually following many of the directions of my Paidagogos. Through the sacrifice of Messiah, I discovered that I was keeping or completing an extraordinary amount of Law. On the one hand, this absolutely horrified me that I was killing an innocent man through my sin, but on the other hand, I then understood that my Paidagogos used my disobedience to bring me face to face with Messiah. Do I continue to stand before Messiah with HIS blood all over my hands and feet? Absolutely not! I knew then that I must repent of my sin and be wholly converted and be washed in Baptism (complete immersion in the Whole Word Of ELOHIM).

                    Having been converted, having been delivered to Messiah Yahushua, now the paramount issue becomes: What does Allen do? Do I return to my sin so that I can continue to receive an additional gift of righteousness (grace) through my sin. Under no circumstances, should this happen! If I should continue in my sin or revert back to my sin, I prove that I have no respect for the life of Messiah and for my own life should I continue to crucify HIM through my sin. Deliberate sin is nothing but bad news for the sinner.

                    Now, please understand this one additional fact: Sinners are under the Law because they are all the time obeying what the Law demands concerning sacrifice. The only possible way to not remain under the Law is to cease from your sin and become a Saint. Believe it or not, this is the truth concerning our Paidagogos. So, Lucy, if it is your desire to not be under the Law, then stop obeying what the Law commands concerning sacrifice, that is, STOP SINNING!

                    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

                    Sincerely, Latuwr
                    The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SORRY Allen i will not be mislead.....

                      Peter and James in Acts 15 tell is the law keeping is defunct - i believe them.
                      end of story.
                      i dont believe Allen Brown's religion.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        the truth according to the NT ....what happened and the resolution.

                        i believe the truth .....here it is written as an edification and the truth.

                        Christians and the Law of Moses: A Study of Acts 15





                        Acts 15 describes the most important meeting the early church had. The future of the church was at stake—was it to be a Jewish group, or would it allow gentiles?

                        If gentiles could enter the church without following Jewish laws, the church would attract more gentiles, and eventually gentiles would be the majority. The church would no longer be a sect of Judaism, but a distinct faith. Let's see how the council of Jerusalem developed.

                        Literary context

                        The council comes in the center of Luke's inspired history. His book begins with the Jewish church, dominated by Peter in chapters 1 to 5. The book ends with Paul's mission to the gentiles, in chapters 16 to 28. Chapters 6 to 15 form a transition, alternating between Jewish and gentile growth.

                        Chapter 15, the council of Jerusalem, forms the climax of the transition between Jewish and gentile evangelism. In the story flow, the council forms the decisive step that propels the gentile mission into dominance.

                        Paul and Barnabas had returned from a successful missionary trip in gentile areas. They told the church in Antioch how God had "opened the door of faith to the Gentiles" (14:27). Thus the stage is set for chapter 15.

                        Controversy arises

                        "Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: `Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved' " (15:1). They were saying that circumcision was required for salvation. They probably thought the question was simple: Christians should obey God, and God had commanded circumcision. If people want the blessings of Abraham, they should act like children of Abraham, and that meant circumcision for gentiles as well as for Jews (Gen. 17:12).

                        Paul and Barnabas had a different opinion: "This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them" (Acts 15:2). How was the argument to be resolved? "Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question." In this way the church could have unity.

                        So "the church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad" (v. 3). Luke is letting us know that most Christians supported the gentile mission.

                        "When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them" (v. 4). What God had done was part of the evidence. The miracles and conversions supported what he was saying.

                        The formal debate

                        Then they debated the question: "Some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, `The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses' " (v. 5). We saw in verse 1 that they believed that circumcision was necessary for salvation. Here we see that they also believed the laws of Moses were required. Circumcision was the first step in the process—they believed that Christians must keep all the laws of Moses.

                        What were these laws? Were they biblical laws, or the unbiblical traditions of the elders? In every other New Testament mention of the "laws of Moses," the biblical books of Moses are meant (Luke 2:22; 24:44; John 7:22-23; Acts 28:23; 1 Cor. 9:9; Heb. 10:28). Luke could have said "traditions," but he did not. Anyone who knew the teachings of Jesus would already know that unbiblical traditions were not required of anyone. They did not need to debate about Jewish traditions.

                        Just as circumcision was biblical, so also were the laws of Moses. The claim was that gentile believers should be circumcised, and then, as part of the covenant people of God, obey the laws of the covenant. One of the laws of Moses was that males were to be circumcised.

                        Today, we might explain that Jesus instituted a new covenant, and that the Jewish believers were God's people not because they were Jewish, but because they were believers. Membership in the new covenant is by faith, not by ancestry. But the Jerusalem council did not approach the question from this perspective. Let's see how they did it.

                        The apostles speak

                        "The apostles and elders met to consider this question" (v. 6). Perhaps dozens of elders were involved. "After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: `Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe' " (v. 7).

                        Peter reminded the people that God had used him to preach the gospel to Cornelius and his family (Acts 10). As far as we know, Cornelius was not circumcised, but Peter did not use that precedent as proof. Rather, he focused on the theological foundations of how a person is saved—by believing.

                        "God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith" (vs. 8-9). God gave the Holy Spirit to this uncircumcised family, purifying their hearts, pronouncing them holy, as acceptable to him, because of their faith.

                        Peter then began to scold the people who wanted the gentiles to obey the laws of Moses: "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (vs. 10-11).

                        Peter's point is that the yoke of Moses was a burden that the Jewish people were not able to keep successfully. Those rituals showed that, no matter how hard people worked, they could never be perfect. They showed, for anyone who ever wondered, that works can never lead to salvation. Salvation is attained in a different way—by grace. We can't earn it, so it has to be given to us.

                        cont...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          cont...the problem solved - the truth revealed.

                          Since the law of Moses cannot bring us salvation, there is no need to require the gentiles to keep it. God gave them the Holy Spirit and showed that he accepts them without all those rituals. They are saved by grace, and the Jews are, too.

                          If we follow Peter's logic, we will see that Jewish believers do not have to keep the laws of Moses, either. They are saved by grace through faith, just as the gentiles are. The old covenant is obsolete, so its laws are no longer required for anyone, and that is why Peter could live like a gentile (Gal. 2:14). But that is getting ahead of the story. In Acts 15, the question is only whether gentiles have to keep the laws of Moses.

                          The judgment of James

                          After Barnabas and Paul told "about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles" (Acts 15:12), James spoke. As leader of the Jerusalem church, he had a lot of influence. Some of the Judaizers even claimed him as their authority (Gal. 2:12), but Luke tells us that James was in complete agreement with Peter and Paul.

                          "Brothers, listen to me. Simon [Peter] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself" (Acts 15:13-14). The fact that God has already acted was powerful evidence. James then quoted from the Greek translation of Amos to show that Scripture agreed with what was happening (vs. 15-18). He could have used other Old Testament prophecies, too, about gentiles being included among God's people.

                          Experience and Scripture pointed to the same conclusion. "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God" (v. 19). There is no need to require the yoke of Moses, for that would make things unnecessarily difficult for the gentile believers.

                          James then suggested four rules: "Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood" (v. 20). Instead of making things difficult for the gentiles, these four rules would be enough.

                          Obviously, gentile believers should not lie, steal and murder. They already knew that, so they did not need a special reminder about it.

                          Why, then, these four rules? Some scholars say the Jews believed that these laws dated back to the time of Noah, and therefore applied to all nations. Others say that all four rules were associated with idolatry. Some say that these four rules were laws of Moses, and were given so gentiles and Jews could eat together. None of these suggestions is fully convincing. (See/bible/acts/decree1 for more details.)

                          However, the decree makes it clear that gentiles do not have to be circumcised, nor do they have to obey the laws of Moses. They are circumcised spiritually, not physically. God never gave those commands to the gentiles.

                          Moses is preached

                          We should not make it difficult for the gentiles, James said. Instead, it will be enough to give them four rules, which they will find easy to comply with. Why give them these rules? Notice the reason that James gives: "For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath" (v. 21).

                          James was not encouraging gentile Christians to attend the synagogues. He was not saying they should listen to the laws of Moses. No, but because those laws were commonly preached, the apostles should tell the gentiles four rules. Then they would not think that Christianity is more difficult than it is.

                          To summarize: Some men said that gentiles should be circumcised and obey the laws of Moses or else they could not be saved. Not so, said the apostles. Gentiles are saved by grace and faith. God is pleased to dwell in people who aren't circumcised and who don't keep the rituals. But since Moses is widely preached, we need to give a decree that clearly distinguishes the Christian faith from the Law of Moses. This pleased the entire church, so they wrote it in a letter and sent it to Antioch, where they "were glad for its encouraging message" (v. 31).
                          http://www.gci.org/bible/act15

                          these facts have been expressed according to the NT.
                          This is what the Holy Spirit sorted out for all men to understand the law verses Grace.
                          Peter and James considered the problem and their conclusion is the truth.

                          I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THESE 2 APOSTLES AND THEIR REASONING AND THEIR ADVICE.

                          so you oppose this advice Allen - therefore i oppose you till you come to your senses ans stop opposing the appointed Apostles and their holy decission.


                          PLACED ON THE PLATE AND SERVED UP SO THERE IS NO MISTAKE.,

                          To summarize:
                          Some men said that gentiles should be circumcised and obey the laws of Moses or else they could not be saved. Not so, said the apostles. Gentiles are saved by grace and faith.
                          God is pleased to dwell in people who aren't circumcised and who don't keep the rituals.
                          But since Moses is widely preached, we need to give a decree that clearly distinguishes the Christian faith from the Law of Moses. This pleased the entire church, so they wrote it in a letter and sent it to Antioch, where they "were glad for its encouraging message" (v. 31).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Allen i c you have no responded after 4 days to the divine truth of the situation....

                            therefore...........



                            i conclude you have been CHECK-MATED to your religious folly and man made belief as you would be proved to be ''the worlds greatest liar'' to deny the wonderfull counsellor's divine advice upon the law of Moses being scrapped.


                            check mate..........

                            NO MATTER HOW YOU RELPY it shall come from a ''lying spirit'' that has attatched to you from the false ministry from armstrong-ism and adventist-im
                            To summarize:


                            Some men said that gentiles should be circumcised and obey the laws of Moses or else they could not be saved. Not so, said the apostles. Gentiles are saved by grace and faith.
                            God is pleased to dwell in people who aren't circumcised and who don't keep the rituals.
                            But since Moses is widely preached, we need to give a decree that clearly distinguishes the Christian faith from the Law of Moses. This pleased the entire church, so they wrote it in a letter and sent it to Antioch, where they "were glad for its encouraging message" (v. 31).
                            .

                            i love this part.............that make all men free from the very Word.

                            Not so, said the apostles.

                            Gentiles are saved by grace and faith.

                            God is pleased to dwell in people who aren't circumcised and who don't keep the rituals.

                            But since Moses is widely preached, we need to give a decree that clearly distinguishes the Christian faith from the Law of Moses.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Justification!

                              Hi Lucy,

                              Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

                              Shabbat Shalom!

                              I know, this thread, lacking a response from me almost stinketh, does it not?

                              I am delighted that you have acknowledged that my teaching concerning the Paidagogos is my teaching and not Mr. Armstrong's or Mrs. White's.

                              I am writing to you from Lake of the Ozarks where I am celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. Today, is a high Sabbath Day for me, the first day of the Feast (Leviticus 23:35). Yesterday, I went shopping at the HyVee in town here to buy some beef sausage links, and when I came to that section in the store, all the beef sausage was gone. This told me that there are a whole lot of former Worldwide Church members celebrating the Feast at the Lake of the Ozarks. Years ago, when I first started keeping the Feast here - I would just come to the Feast site on weekends - Worldwiders would fill up many of the resorts around the Lake. You would see signs all over the place: Welcome Worldwide Church of God, and this one I loved: We sell beef bacon. he/he/he

                              Now, to the last portion of Galatians 3:24:

                              Galatians 3:24
                              24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.

                              Paul is teaching here that the Law leads us to Messiah Yahushua in order that we might be made righteous by faith.

                              Under the Law, there formerly existed only one way to be justified, and according to the teaching of Paul, this justification rested solely on completing works of the Law. How do I define a work of the Law? Anything that the Law commands and is accomplished in a physical sense, is a work of the Law. Traveling to Lake of the Ozarks to keep the Feast is a real stretch when one really looks at what the Law commands, but it does convey a certain amount of righteousness. I am in the process of attempting to accomplish a work of the Law. The difficulty for this type of righteousness is that there are a whole lot of other works which must be completed before little old Allen Brown can be declared just or righteous. I think you say 613, do you not?

                              Look, Lucy, does not Paul say in verse 24 that the Law, our Paidagogos, Paidagogos for both Jew and Gentile, does not Paul teach that this all happens so that we might be justified by faith?

                              Question: If you are not willing to admit that the Law led you to Messiah, how do you ever arrive at the point that you can be justified by faith? Additionally, most Christians admit that the Law defines sin. So, Lucy, you and others do discover through the Law that you are sinners. So what? How does that understanding lead you to Messiah Yahushua?

                              I was taught as a Lutheran that the discovery of my sin eventually teaches me my need for someone to save me from my sin, that is, as they would say, pay my penalty for my sin substitutionally. Therefore, when I am brought to the Cross of Messiah, I willingly accept the gracious gift of HIS righteousness freely given to me. Now, I can go to my grave with the belief that YAHWEH ELOHIM now accepts me in my sin and will grant me life after physical death because of my faith in all the work that Messiah has accomplished in and for my behalf. This is all bull....! And it has absolutely nothing to do with the true concept of being justified or made righteous by faith.

                              The religious Jews of Paul's day were very righteous. They were doers of the Law in a physical sense completing many works of the Law. The Gentiles of Paul's day had little righteousness. They were sinners having accomplished very little of what the Law commands. So, how are both the righteous and the unrighteous led to Messiah Yahushua by the Law? Both are led to Messiah through their disobedience, that is, their sin, as I have taught above. Eventhough the Jews were very righteous, they also failed in perfect obedience to Law. Like the feastgoers here at the Lake, they kept some Law, but they did not keep it all.

                              So, the purpose of our sin for both Jew and Gentile is ultimately that we might be united with Messiah on HIS Cross in order that we, the sinner, might die with HIM. Understand here that the Law leads sinners to Messiah to put sinners to death with HIM and not as Christianty teaches that we might have faith that Messiah died in our stead or in our place. True faith begins to be established when the sinner understands that he/she died with Messiah.

                              You know that I like to use the Passover Lamb here as my example. Sacrificing a physical lamb is a work of the Law. I would know nothing concerning a Passover Lamb without the Law. Therefore, when I admit that Yahushua is my Passover Lamb, whom I did sacrifice through my sin, then I have obtained unto a righteousness that comes by grace through faith. Through faith because I have never sacrificed a physical lamb and therefore not in a position to claim that I am righteous through a work of the Law, and through faith because I can see and believe through the working of the Law on my behalf that Yahushua is my Passover Lamb.

                              As I told you above, I had great respect for the ministry of Mr. Armstrong. He did not understand the work of the Paidagogos, but he did understand that YAHWEH ELOHIM must be obeyed. Mr. Tkach Jr. has continued to move the former Worldwide Church of God, now the Grace Communion International, back to the puke of traditional Christianity. I am not surprised that you are willing to espouse traditional Christian teaching on grace and the Law. Both you and they have need of repentance here, Lucy!

                              Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

                              Sincerely, Latuwr
                              The Currahee Band Of Brothers Are Beginning To Arise In The HOLY PLACE! Listen to them!!!

                              Comment

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