The Last Prophetic Sermon of Jesus Christ [Archive]

Stranger

06-10-2001, 04:52 PM

Anyone studying the life of Jesus Christ in the NT will discover that there is an incredible amount of disparity on several issues among the different writers. The assertion that the NT was inspired by the sacred Ruach is really an insult to Almighty Yahweh. The same event is reported differently depnding on the writer.

Some resourceful preachers have a field day on Easter season telling how badly Jesus Christ suffered. They go to great length describing the different techniques used by the Roman soldiers to crack a cat-of-9-tails on a bare back, and so on. Actually the suffering of Jesus Christ was brief and his death was swift and sweet, too. Even Pontius Pilate who was an expert at crucifying was surprised that he died so quickly. The most painful moments prior to his crucifixion were at the Gethsemane Garden where Jesus Christ really sweated blood at the thought of dying. On his way to the crucifixion site he managed to stop and do some prophetic preaching, too. Nobody can really believe that Jesus Christ suffered that much, except the Christians who need to believe that to make the guilt on the Jews that much more impacting.

Luke 23:27 (NIV) A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.
28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
29 For the time will come when you will say, `Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!'
30 Then "`they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '
31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"

In his final address to the people that he came to save, Jesus Christ had no words of comfort. He asked a large crowd of people including Jewish women that were following him not to feel sorry for him, but to cry for themselves because what they were going to suffer was much worse than he ever suffered. Then Jesus Christ wraps up his prophetic message with a statement that is totally contrary to the word and spirit of Yahweh’s promise to Israel. Apparently the writers of the NT were not well versed in the Tanakh.

Psalms 113:9 * He settles the barren woman in her home as a happy mother of children. Praise Yahweh.

Isaiah 51:3-4 * Yahweh will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of Yahweh. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing. “Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: The law will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations.

Isaiah 54:1 * "Sing, O barren woman, you who never bore a child; burst into song, shout for joy, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband," says Yahweh.

Jeremiah 31:13 * Then maidens will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.

Bear in mind that Isaiah 54 follows immediately after Isaiah 53 that the Christians use to prove that Jesus Christ is the messiah of Israel. I use Isaiah 54:1 to prove that Jesus Christ is a fraud. In the Tanakh Yahweh identifies himself fully with Israel, not so Jesus Christ. Obviously the Jews are not Jesus Christ’s people. One of the first statements made by Saint John in his “gospel” is that “he (i.e. Jesus Christ) came to his own and his own did not welcome him.” Apparently Jesus Christ credentials were lacking.

John 1:11 (KJV) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

There is no record anywhere that any significant number of Jewish women wished to be barren and to commit suicide by asking the hills and mountains to fall on them, not even during the recent holocaust was there any significant report of mass suicide or suicide wish among them. According to Jesus Christ the worse is still to come. It is duly documented in the NT that Jesus Christ is unkind to the Jews, especially to the women and their children. There is no record that his prophecy about a mass suicide wish by the Jewish women ever took place. Christianity is looking forward to it so they can strengthen their faith seeing prophecy in the making. To understand the weirdness of Jesus Christ’s prophecy one has to remember that no woman is on record in the Tanakh ever wishing to be barren, but all the opposite. Practically all the examples are of women that were barren, but wished to have babies. To be barren or to remain a virgin is against Yahweh’s command to be fruitful and multiply.

Jesus Christ sweated drops of blood to dramatize his fearsome suffering. Now he is predicting that the suffering of the large number of Jewish women that were following him was going to be so extreme that will put them at the edge of wishing to commit suicide. Jesus Christ had no words of any kind for any male Jew. Honestly, the Roman soldiers were awfully kind to him, too. They got somebody else to carry his 300-pounder cross all the way to the crucifixion site. So Jesus Christ didn’t fare that bad after all. Even to the last moments of life he managed to have large crowds to follow him. He was not really rejected by the Jews. Everywhere he went large crowds would follow him even on his way to the crucifixion site. His alleged rejection is one more statement made a few times by the writers of the NT “to fulfill that which was written,” they said, misquoting Isaiah 53. The fact is that at the peak of his career Jesus Christ begged Judas to go out and betray him “quickly.” A real funny thing occurred to me on the way to the forum. There is no prophecy anywhere stating that the messiah of Israel is going to be betrayed. The bit of the “30 pieces” in Zachariah has nothing to do with any betrayal. Anyone with 2 neurons in his/her brain and capable of reading can tell that.

Zechariah 11:7 * So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them
9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of Yahweh.
12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And Yahweh said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of Yahweh to the potter.
14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
15 Then Yahweh said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd.
16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs.
17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!"

While hanging on the cross Jesus Christ had plenty of time to discuss among other things the trip that the “good burglar” and he were going to make together after they expire. He promised to take the “good burglar” with him to paradise that very day. There is a bit of a controversy about where that place may be. There is no record that Jesus Christ went to paradise or to Heaven for that matter. After his alleged resurrection he is telling everybody not to touch him because he didn’t go to Heaven yet. So Jesus Christ didn’t go to Heaven when he died. Some Christians claim that he went to Hell to purge for the sins of the world and to use the occasion to do some preaching, too. The dream of every preacher is to preach in Hell where the chances for success are almost guaranteed. So we all must wonder where in the world Jesus Christ took the “good burglar” the day they both died. There is a bit of controversy on Jesus Christ’s flip-flop about being touched by a woman. It seems that nobody was checking with each other while putting together the NT.

John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Luke 24:39 (NIV) Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

In Christianity the rules are made as the game is played, I guess. So in much less than a week Jesus Christ got over his alleged fearsome pain and suffering. It surely doesn’t even come near the pain and suffering of the Jews through the holocaust alone. Some of them really suffered months and even years before they died out of physical and emotional pain. As I look at the record of Jesus Christ I can assert without a reasonable doubt that in spite of assertions to the contrary he doesn’t really know what human suffering is all about. I wonder why I never took a closer look at the claims of Jesus Christ. I wasted so much time in Christianity that is no joke. I was told what to believe. Then I was schooled how to tell people what to believe. Now I do my own thinking.

Spying

06-12-2001, 05:22 AM

Friends,

To those who have ears to hear:

Most of us would desire to be present at the death of a loved one. We desire to say our good-byes. It is an emotional time. For those who have been there, they know that it is not easy. It is hard to be there, but I suspect that it is even harder in the long run to choose not to be there. It is not easy to tell someone in their last days what their life has meant to you, to thank them, to ask their forgiveness, to give forgiveness. We desire to give comfort to someone who is dying, to help them let go of life. We want to hear their last words. We want their blessing.

Yahushua said:

John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (KJV)

What does the spirit quicken? The spirit quickens the flesh. So, the words of Yahushua are important to those who are flesh and to those who have flesh.

If the Words of Yahushua can quicken, then surely his last words are vital. Here they are together in one place. I hope I have placed them in the right order.

A.
Luke 23:28-31
28 But Yahushua turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? (KJV)

B.
Luke 23:34
34 Then said Yahushua, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (KJV)

C.
Luke 23:43
43 And Yahushua said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (KJV)

D.
John 19:26-27
26 When Yahushua therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. (KJV)

E.
Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Yahushua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (KJV)

F.
John 19:28
28 After this, Yahushua knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. (KJV)

G.
John 19:30
30 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (KJV)

H.
Luke 23:46
46 And when Yahushua had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (KJV)

WERE YOU THERE? HAVE YOU HEAR HIS WORDS? Have you been quickened by his words? Would you please help me assign these words to the blessings listed below? Can anyone tell me where this list of blessings can be found? Whose responsibility was it to speak these blessings? On what day were these blessings spoken?

____________ 1. For the Law
____________ 2. For the Temple Service
____________ 3. For the Thanksgiving
____________ 4. For the Forgiveness of Sins and for the Temple Separately
____________ 5. For Israel Separately
____________ 6. For Jerusalem Separately
____________ 7. For the Priests Separately
____________ 8. For the Rest of the Prayer

Sincerely,
Spying

Stranger

06-12-2001, 06:30 PM

Hi Spying,

I know all the answers that you came up with to discredit my statements. I was there before. There are very few people reading you web side so you shouldn’t be that overly concerned about letting the wrong people read what you have to say. I say this because I can’t understand why are you so negative to the truth. I am not talking about having faith to believe in Jesus Christ I am talking about accepting a written statement of an alleged messiah of Israel. All the documentation that I presented here is documented evidence of a phony messiah. The real messiah is not going to be like Jesus Christ for all the reasons that I outlined in my posts. When you are dealing with phony stuff you must bear in mind that anything phony looks very much like the real stuff. I strongly believe based on the record itself that the NT is phony. You are trying to flip the record so that it will conform to traditional Christianity, but any Jew can tell you that you are wrong. I know that Christians accept everything by faith. Also, I know that there is no alternative for the Christian religion. Subjection to Israel is out of the question. It is mandatory to wait for the REAL messiah of Israel to come and straighten things out. The real messiah is not the anti-Semitic Jesus Christ. You and I know that what I have stated in my posts is the honest truth at least in question form. All the crap (sorry if I lack a better word) that the NT is stating about Jesus Christ is just that. One has to be a dedicated anti-Semitic Christian to accept what you are saying. You and I know that this stuff about human sacrifice to pacify the Almighty Creator of the Universe is of Heathen vintage.

Spying

06-13-2001, 06:17 AM

Hi Stranger,

You are absolutely correct: We do both know that Messiah did not die to pacify YAHWEH in a substitutional sense. That is paganism. I believe that Messiah died following a battle plan that is contained in the directives of the Law and supported in the statements of the Prophets. I do not relate to you what Christians teach very often. You speak more of the teachings of Christians than I do. I relate what I have been privileged to see from YAHWEH'S perspective. YAHWEH was reconciled through the death of Messiah, but this reconciliation only occurred because Messiah was able through his suffering and death to bring about the death of all of Mankind. I cannot prove that to anyone, and you are right, there are few willing to listen. Numbers have never mattered to me. I have Messiah as my example. He stood alone with all against him. While I have stood alone, I have never been alone. Messiah has always been by my side.

Subjection to physical Israel is indeed out of the question. I observe the Sabbath in a physical sense. Gentile observance of the Sabbath is considered a capital offence by Judaism. They consider Gentile Sabbath observance a form of stealing. So, in their world, ruled by a Messiah acceptable to them, I would be required to break the Sabbath in some fashion each week; otherwise, I would be put to death for stealing one of their special covenants.

I consider myself a physical descendant of physical Israel. I have rights and privileges that therefore conflict with many of the claims of the Jews. You could say that I am in competition with you and them in order to eventually receive what is promised. (Thummim, there may very well be a spiritual breach!) Christians are not concerned about the level of things required in order to fulfill the Word of YAHWEH. I am.

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

06-16-2001, 08:01 AM

Friends,

Who are the Daughters of Jerusalem? Do you have any ideas? Do you think that they are Jews? Do you think that one must inhabit physical Jerusalem before one qualifies for the designation: Daughter of Jerusalem? Maybe in order to qualify as a Daughter of Jerusalem, one need only to have an heritage that springs from Jerusalem? You know what? Maybe the City of Jerusalem represents something in a spiritual sense? If that is possible, then maybe a Daughter of Jerusalem also represents something in a spiritual sense? Maybe a daughter is not a physical person after all? Is Jerusalem a woman? Humm? What kind of woman is she?

The Apostle John received this revelation from Messiah Yahushua:
Rev 18:4-7
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and ELOHIM hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (KJV)Who is it that entered into a covenant relationship with the King of Heaven and Earth. Who is it that refuses to believe that she is a widow? How could a prophecy concerning the Daughters of a widow be a blessing for the Law?

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-16-2001, 10:52 AM

When you tell me that I am “absolutely correct,” I immediately jump on my guard. You are still a Christian. I do not see any redeeming qualities whatsoever in Christianity or in Jesus Christ. I believe that the character of Jesus Christ was manipulated to conform to some prophecies in the Tanakh. Sometimes the prophecies were created for the occasion in the NT. The biography of Jesus Christ was put together many years after the facts. It was easy for the NT writers to make him the fulfillment of some things written in the Tanakh about the true messiah. There is nowhere written that the messiah needs to die and resurrect. That is a gross lie invented by the authors of Christianity. You are saying…
YAHWEH was reconciled through the death of Messiah, but this reconciliation only occurred because Messiah was able through his suffering and death to bring about the death of all of Mankind. I cannot prove that to anyone, and you are right, there are few willing to listen. Numbers have never mattered to me. I have Messiah as my example. He stood alone with all against him. While I have stood alone, I have never been alone. Messiah has always been by my side.I see that you believe in a new fairytale. I don’t think it will fly. Although, nobody thought that Joe Smith was going to make Mormonism a mighty religion. So maybe you will succeed, too. Hey, what would you call your new religion?

You say that Yahweh was not pacified thorough human sacrifice, but that he was reconciled instead. Reconciled for what? Jesus Christ set up Judas to betray him. He setup the most despicable operation against the Jews that would have blown the mind to the NT writers if they knew what they were writing. Are the millions of Jews that were killed in the last 2000 years part of the price for reconciliation? Or are you saying that because Jesus Christ died for all mankind the millions of Jews that were killed by the Christians in the last 2000 years weren't really killed? And that the Holocaust actually didn't take place? Even if there was a actual Holocaust you wouldn't state that anyone died in it, right? Is it a spiritually correct statement to say that no Jew died during the Holocaust because Jesus Christ died for all humankind? I don't know maybe I am putting words in your mouth that I may regret someday.

Did you notice that you are now presenting Yahweh as being “reconciled” without any judicial procedure. The death of Jesus Christ was swift and sweet. He hardly suffered at all. He managed to inflict a lot of pain and suffering to MILLIONS of Jews. MILLIONS of them died because of him. They died after days and months and years of torture while Jesus Christ’s “suffering and death” was hardly a slap in the wrist. Nothing compares to what the Jews suffered in the last 200 years. AND YOU KNOW IT. It is obvious that what you have in Jesus Christ is a crutch. He is your idol. It is ugly and totally dysfunctional, but it still works for you. Your “reconciliation theology” doesn’t work. It is like so many other quack feel good drugs. You get a little high on Jesus Christ, espiritually speaking and that’s it. Let me prove to you that Almighty Yahweh doesn’t need a human sacrifice to “reconcile” or to forgive anyone.

2 Samuel 12:13 * Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against Yahweh." Nathan replied, "Yahweh has taken away your sin. You are not going to die.”

Psalms 85:2 * You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins.

Spying, do you see how Almighty Yahweh works? He forgives sins and death on the spot without the need of any suffering and death (i.e. human sacrifice). Jesus Christ is pictured in the NT as doing the same, too. He set himself on the same level with the Almighty to forgive sins on the spot. The Jesus Christ/Nathan difference is that Nathan was a true prophet of Yahweh. Nathan was speaking for Yahweh. Jesus Christ forgave sins on his vested authority that he claimed to have “from the father” and he was actually doing it without any human sacrifice. He should have settled with that. He didn’t have to force Judas to betray him and then have the whole Jewish population in the world paying for it for the last 2000 years. Jesus Christ should have continued to make the miracles that are reported in the NT.

Luke 5:20 (NIV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

Matthew 9:5 (NIV) Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'?

Jesus Christ is saying that to forgive sins is not a big deal even “his father” can do it, but to tell a cripple man to walk is a big deal. The funny thing here is that Jesus Christ is very selective on whom to forgive anything. To the Roman soldiers that were crucifying him he didn’t bother to forgive. He asked “the father” to do it. He could have shown a better heart like, “I would forgive them. How about you?” or “Hey, you guys I’m forgiving you” or something like that. Jesus Christ opted to order “his father” to forgive them. Was his sin-forgiving power wearing out? I honestly don’t know who Jesus Christ’s “father” is. I am not much anymore into Christian Heathenism. It seems to be that Jesus Christ didn’t have a permanent authority to forgive sins. So he had to ask “his father” to do the forgiving. That is what Christianity calls, teamwork of the “Holey Trinity.” They cover for each other. Although the Christians say that when Jesus Christ was hanging on the cross he was under a curse. During that time the “father” was not capable of looking nor listening at him. So his prayer of “forgive them because they know not what they are doing” may have gone down the drain. The Christians also claim that Jesus Christ got the full load of the sins of the world so he because the worst sinner in himself. A sinner has no power to intercede for anyone’s sins, too. So I don’t know what is that stands in Christianity, anymore.

Just before Jesus Christ went to “Hell” he gave out the “Holey Ghost.” So he went to Hell on his own “spirit.” The “good burglar” kept waiting for 3 days at the Hell’s lobby for Jesus Christ return from Hell. Now that I think of it, Jesus Christ’s agenda was full of activities during and after his alledged trip to Hell where he spent 3 days and 3 nights preaching to the “spirits” there. >>>1 Peter 3:19 (NIV) through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison <<< So as a preacher he was not without a crowd to preach. As a purger for the sins of the world, he is kinda lacking. I don’t believe that he did any purging. In the grave there is no memory or conscience so I am sure that he is still dead and by now his dust must have recycle a lot of times. I don’t see any record that he suffered in a sulfur and brimstone fire to purge for “the sins of the world.” His only suffering before his death was that slap in the wrist that I described earlier. So I don’t know how the “good burglar” got to Paradise. Maybe Jesus Christ told him how to get there on his own. I mentioned in another post that the Christians had Paradise conveniently located in Hell to receive the “suffering savior.” Later on Paradise was transplanted to Heaven where it is located now. Any preaching to the “spirits in prison” was probably done on a closed circuit TV live from Paradise. I hate to think that I may be contributing with my ideas to make more sense out of Christian mythology.

Christianity is so dysfunctional that it is no joke. When I was a Christian minister I was very much upset by so many contradictions in the NT. I was trained to say that there are no contradictions. I was taking A and B. I assumed that A or B although contradicting were true after all. Then I was doing all kinds of contortions to make A equal to B so there won’t be any contradiction. I feel now like I was a drug pusher of the “spiritual” kind. Now I have no problem. A and B are crap put together to come up with the NT.

Your remarks about why you are not keeping Shabbat are interesting to say the least.

Isaiah 56:4-5 * For this is what Yahweh says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.”

Psalms 119:111-112 * Your statutes are my heritage forever; they are the joy of my heart. My heart is set on keeping your decrees to the very end.

Jeremiah 50:4-5 * "In those days, at that time," declares Yahweh, "the people of Israel and the people of Judah together will go in tears to seek Yahweh their Elohim. They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to Yahweh in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.”

Spying

06-19-2001, 05:50 AM

Hi Stranger,

No! My religion is very ancient!

Do the Jews today remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy? Do they rest from their worldly labors from Friday evening sunset to Saturday evening sunset? Do they refrain from buying and selling on the Sabbath? Do they assemble with each other on the Sabbath?

Does YAHWEH hold their Sabbath breaking sin against them? In other words, Stranger, or anybody else that is listening, does YAHWEH get mad about Sabbath breaking? Yes, YAHWEH sure does! As far as YAHWEH is concerned, Sabbath breaking is a capital offence!

YAHWEH entered into a covenant relationship with the Jews. The Jews stood at Sinai and said:
Exod 19:8
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that (the) YAHWEH hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto (the) YAHWEH. (KJV)

Exod 24:3
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of (the) YAHWEH, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which (the) YAHWEH hath said will we do. (KJV)So, the Jews entered into a marriage relationship with YAHWEH in which they agreed to obey YAHWEH. You and I need not search very far to find numerous Jews rebelling against their Husband, breaking covenant with HIM! So, if the Jews do not keep covenant with YAHWEH, why do you deny that YAHWEH needs to be reconciled with them? Sabbath breakers deserve to die. Now, YAHWEH, will forgive, as you say, but Sabbath breakers need to turn from their sin. How can YAHWEH in HIS lovingkindness and great mercy lead the Jews to repent of their sin? HE HIMSELF can show them the cost of their sin. This YAHWEH did do though the death of Messiah Yahushua. The wages of sin is death.

Through the fulfillment of the Law, YAHWEH has already killed us all through the death of Messiah Yahushua. To be sure, this is a spiritual death which must be perceived through spiritual eyes, but YAHWEH is a spirit, and YAHWEH does act in spiritual ways which mankind cannot see unless it is revealed to them. All of mankind including the Jews have sinned, and all of us deserve to die, and all of us will die unless of course some of us are changed in a twinkling of an eye. If, in YAHWEH'S sight, all have died in Messiah Yahushua, then YAHWEH is indeed reconciled. HE is no longer mad at the Jews, and He is no longer mad at the world. Now, the issue becomes solely an issue of whether or not we all ourselves are going to be reconciled to YAHWEH. Do not refuse this grace of YAHWEH through Messiah Yahushua lest you make angry again the King of the Universe. Repent and change your ways while you yet have time.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-19-2001, 09:11 AM

...Spying, by your own book, you are judged as you judge others. Can you pass muster? You will say that (jesus) paid your debt. But by your words, you imply that he failed to redeem his own people. Either he is the redeemer of his people, or he isn't. {Isa.53 says nothing about the redemption of gentiles. {53:6 --> us all; 53:8 --> my people} So if you want any redemption yourself, you had better grant Isa.53, that you yourself claim, to also cover the JEWish people. In other words, you had better esteem the JEWs, a redeemed people. The salvation that you claim, does not belong to you. Shouldn't you assume it to belong to the JEWish people? The vindication you would claim for yourself, must belong to all JEWs first. In your own heart, you need to return Isa.53, to its rightful owners, and not take it as your own. (Deut.22:1-3) How can a JEW then be guilty of breaking the sabboth? YHWH tells you that the righteousness of his peoples is from himself. Isa.54:17
....Michael

Spying

06-22-2001, 05:55 AM

Hi Thummim,

Redemption is perhaps the most difficult of all the functions of the Law to put into proper perspective. Whenever we seek to understand these functions, we must always go back and see what the Law requires. So, Leviticus 25 should be considered as well as any other regulations concerning redemption. Under the Law, the Jews are told that they strangers and sojourners with YAHWEH. The LAND belongs to HIM:
Lev 25:23
23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me. (KJV)If the Land belongs to YAHWEH, why do you now say that the Land belongs to the Jews? Did YAHWEH sell it to them? If so, what is the price that the Jews paid for the Land? Does YAHWEH as the original owner have the option to redeem the Land from the Jews? These are the type of questions which give indication of how issues such as redemption should be approached.

People can also be redeemed:
Lev 25:47-49
47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. (KJV)Did the Jews ever wax poor? Did they ever sell themselves to strangers and sojourners? Did someone else ever sell the Jews to strangers and sojourners with them? Paul said this concerning himself:
Rom 7:14
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (KJV)Is sin a sojourner in the Land? Yes, sin is not a permanent resident of the Land. Paul is a Jew. How was Paul sold under sin? Did he sell himself or did someone else sell him under sin? How can one be redeemed from under the dominion of sin? Sin must be paid his price. What is the price of sin?:
Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of ELOHIM is eternal life (THE LAND) through Yahushua Messiah our YAHWEH. (KJV)Under the Law, a Jew who has been sold can redeem himself or a close relative of the one who has been sold can provide the price of redemption. Did Paul redeem himself? Who was the close relative that redeemed Paul from sin? If the price of sin is my death, how can the death of someone else pay my price? Substitutionalism does not work redemption. Sin needs to be paid my death. So, if YAHWEH is the redeemer, YAHWEH must somehow bring about my death in order for me to be redeemed. Who did YAHWEH use to bring about my death? Thanks be to YAHWEH for Yahushua, my redeemer!! If one is indeed redeemed from under sin, if one has indeed died with Messiah, how does the one redeemed prove that redemption has occurred? These are the type of questions that I am inclined to discuss, Thummim, should you have a desire to truly debate redemption with me.

When we put redemption in a lawful context, we can more easily recognize and understand how Satan has been able to twist the writings of our dear Jewish brother, Paul, in order to further the dominion of sin in the LAND.

Have a good Sabbath Day! (HalleluYAH, there is rest in all the LAND)

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-22-2001, 08:46 AM

(*Lev.25:47-49*)?
...Spying, if a JEW is purchased by one deemed a stranger (a foreigner), he is to be redeemed from him by any method possible. These are YHWH's people. He doesnt want them sold of from him. The question here is not who owns the land, but who owns the people that YHWH calls his own. It's not the stranger that is redeemed. It's the Israelite. Where is it written that a foreigner is to be redeemed (from another foreigner)? And while YHWH maintains claim to his land, it is promised as an inheritance. Without this piece of land, the covenant ceases to be in effect as promised. We've got an "if - then" situation here. If YHWH's people walk in his way, they will realize their inheritance of the land. Take the land out of question, and this arrangement falls apart. While the JEWs are still his people, without the land, the covenant is "broken" and can't be maintained as given.

...And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a GD unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their GD. Gen. 17:7,8

...Now to maintain this arrangement with YHWH, the land "that YHWH promises" must be possessed. Two things YHWH gives to this covenant. He, as GD of his people, and the possession of the land. The land may have to be possessed in the name of YHWH. Through this name, the land of Israel can always be claimed. This may be why the JEWish people can maintain claim upon the land. Because this is four of the five letters of the name of the tribe, that is chosen to bear the name of GD. (Deut.12:5=Ps.78:67-69) The part of YHWH's people in this covenant, is to Keep YHWH's ways. (Eccl.12:13 --> Mal.4:4)

...Quote, {Did the JEWs ever wax poor?} Are you trying to imply that the JEWish people aren't promised redemption? Redemption is promised to JEWs throughout the tanakh. Show me where this redemption is promised to Foreigners, except they add themselves to the JEWish people. Gentile redemption is a very vague concept. The tanakh is very JEWish, even to the name of YHWH. You need to realize just how JEWish the tanakh is. Your kind of redemption doesn't fit the JEWish people very well. You cannot concede to Yahudeem, that which you try to steal from them. That is, their own redemption. The rest of what you wrote is like a foreign faith to me. I have to leave the context of the tanakh to make any sense of it. Me and Paul are not friends.

....Michael

Spying

06-23-2001, 05:53 AM

Hi Thummim,

Good day to you. I generally liked the level of your reply to me. You raised a number of issues that deserve response. Unfortunately, it is well nigh impossible to address all of them in a single post. Some of the issues we have covered in the past, and no doubt we are going to argue and debate them in the future. I cannot help but make this comment:

You have thoroughly raked me over the coals in the past over what you perceive as my anti-semiticism. I think you at one time said that I was like unto Balak. My attitude has always been to make no distinctions among men according to race because I view all men as one in Messiah Yahushua. So, all men are my friends until YAHWEH or the Assembly deems them to be enemies.

Now, I am aware that race does exist. My older brother, Paul, is a Jew of Jews. My eldest brother, Yahushua, does have some blemishes in his genealogy, but no one would seriously argue that he was not Jewish. You have just openly admitted to me that Paul is not your friend; therefore, he must be your enemy. Messiah is despised by you as a false redeemer of his people; therefore, he also is not your friend. I am surprised at you, Thummim. You seem to have a lot of Jewish enemies. Now, what does that make you?

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-23-2001, 12:29 PM

Hi Spying,

I am back on the Internet and ready to speak out for the oldest truth that keeps escaping you. I noticed the extraordinary efforts that you are making to ignore the truth in the tanakh. You new theory of death by proxy has too many flaws.

Through the fulfillment of the Law, YAHWEH has already killed us all through the death of Messiah Yahushua. To be sure, this is a spiritual death which must be perceived through spiritual eyes, but YAHWEH is a spirit, and YAHWEH does act in spiritual ways which mankind cannot see unless it is revealed to them…

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of ELOHIM is eternal life (THE LAND) through Yahushua Messiah our YAHWEH. (KJV)I am not sure if you are redefining the meaning of words to suite your newly founded faith. I will ignore the second part of your NT quote because you are inventing now that YAHWEH is an object and not the sacred name of our Creator.

By the way, you probably don’t read what you type or you are typing in a desperate mode to justify Christianity at any cost. You are defeating your own objectives, then. You state, “YAHWEH has already killed us all through the death of Messiah Yahushua” then you quote the NT to substantiate that, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of ELOHIM is eternal life through Yahushua Messiah our YAHWEH.” If I read you correctly you are saying that Yahweh killed the world’s population by killing himself in the person of Yahushua, whom you identify to be your “Yahweh” or “(THE) Yahweh.” I think that you accept the fact that Yahweh abominates the just person dying for the unrighteous. So Jesus Christ cannot have possibly died for anyone. I agree with you on this one, any substitutionalistic dogma is out.

So, are you actually saying now that Yahweh did a hara-kiri act to reconcile the world? Where do you get this stuff? Hallucinations and “spirituality” has nothing to do with real life stuff. In my days as a Christian minister I used to lie like crazy under the cover of “spiritual” interpretations. So you don't have to explain me about "spiritual" stuff. The NT is full of it. I must concede that you far outrank me giving out "spiritual" interpretations.

Spying, I proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Christianity is based on false premises. I can’t remember if you still believe in the Trinity, but one of the false premises of Christianity is precisely, “For the wages of sin is death.” So one has to let Jesus Christ to die in one’s place to be save. You and I know that this is totally false and contrary to the teachings in the Tanakh. The other false premise that goes along with this one is, “Without shedding of blood there is no remission.” I already posted on the subject that blood is not the ONLY way of attaining remission. A handful of flour among other things would do just as well and it doesn’t require a human sacrifice. If I recall correctly you agreed on the human sacrifice bit is a fraud, but now you are pushing this bit on, “For the wages of sin is death.” This is the quote that most missionaries use to gain converts to Christianity. It is extremely effective because it scares the heck out of any uninformed person. Christianity depends on it for its success as a commercial enterprise. As you well know, billions of dollars are collected on the scheme of “saving souls.”

Psalms 103:9-12 * He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

Psalms 130:3-4 * If you, Yah, kept a record of sins, O Yahweh who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared.

Ezra 9:13 * "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our Elohim, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this.

Nehemiah 9:31 * But in your great mercy you did not put an end to them or abandon them, for you are a gracious and merciful Elohim.

Lamentations 3:22 * Because of Yahweh's great love we are not consumed, for his compassion never fail.

So you see, Spying, your categorical NT bit on “the wages of sin are death” is sheer nonsense. You and Paul are willingly denying Yahweh’s love and mercy and promoting human sacrifice for "reconciliation." Or, if I need to understand you differently you imply that Almighty Yahweh has performed a hara-kiri act on himself in the person of Jesus Christ?

You still seem to see the need of a human sacrifice performed by a suicidal maniac that goes by the name of Jesus Christ to represent the killing of all humanity for “reconciliation” purposes. How do you get ideas like these? Your new theory that Yahweh is in the hara-kiri business by proxy is so disgusting that I am surprised that you are pushing it. If I were to believe that Yahushua is Yahweh then the whole thing is even more repulsive. Don’t you have a sense or right and wrong? You keep coming back to me with classical NT quotes that contradict the Tanakh and you want me to believe the same way you do? I don’t believe that you will be successful among intelligent Jews. They already have a savior. His name is Almighty Yahweh. He doesn’t require a human sacrifice for anything. By the way, I dare not judge any Jew on whether he/she keeps Shabbat or not.

Thummim

06-24-2001, 07:29 PM

...Hello Spying, as you know, a wolf can come in lambs clothing. He can look like a JEW, sound like a JEW and yet be a wolf. If he takes a bite out of my flock, I esteem him a wolf. Paul is a JEW, who is a Roman and thinks like one. He would defile YHWH's altar with innocent blood. As to Yahushua, if he really wants to be a sacrifice for sin, why does he act like he knows nothing about the priesthood? He must present an ashem to YHWH. All sin is atoned for by ashems which are burnt offerings. Isn't the offering that he is thought to be, the one made for all Israel, once a year on Yom kippur? We have two kid goats here, one for the ashem and one to carry the sin of Israel into an unihabited part of the country. Who would the scapegoat be that carries the sin of Israel, elsewhere? We also have a bullock to give as an asham. These are presented outside of the camp as whole burnt offerings. They don't fit Yahushua at all. Isa.53:10 shows that this servant of YHWH, makes himself an ashem. Ash means fire in hebrew. No passover lamb can atone for sin. The blood of this lamb is used as a sign that the people of Israel are in covenant with their Eloheem. (Gen.15:9-18) This covenant is not for sin. It is a contract between Abraham and YHWH. With the blood of the pascel lamb, YHWH separates his people from the Egyptians and shows that this people are his own. The sins of this people are very much with them. No atonement has yet been made. That comes later. These early christians seem to have no Levitical knowledge at all. Be careful Spying, don't allow Yahushua to be your fuhrer. If he demands something of you, make sure that it is asked in righteousness. If you harm YHWH's people, even with the permission of (jesus), YHWH will hold you accountable. The only way to distroy the name of YHWH, is to distroy his people. This is how you tell the bad guys from the good ones. Don't whack any heads just yet.

....Michael

Spying

06-27-2001, 06:10 AM

Hi Stranger,

"YAHWEH" is the Hebrew physical name of our ELOHIM. Like most names, the name "YAHWEH", has a meaning. In others words the Sacred Name can be translated. Maybe I am wrong, but I have always understood the Sacred Name in a physical sense to mean, "I am that I am". I have heard others say that YAHWEH means "I will be what I will be". Is that correct? All names can serve as objects. We can praise YAHWEH, can we not? When I say that Messiah is our YAHWEH, I am saying that Messiah is the "I am that I am".

That is what I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.

Now, how in all the world could a man become YAHWEH? What is the process? Is there a formula? In a sense I believe that there is, and I believe that Messiah was made privy to that information. He used that information to follow a plan of action. You have a record or description of that action in the New Testament. You now discount that record as being false. That could be a grave mistake for you especially if the "I am that I am" proves to be a family and not a single entity. You are betting your future that YAHWEH is a single entity forever apart from man. I am betting that YAHWEH through Messiah is in the process of becoming what HE already is.

I am doing my best to spy out the process of becoming. In doing so, I have learned to understand or have a sense that YAHWEH is more a way of becoming or being than an object of becoming or being. So, action or doing is the most important aspect of YAHWEH.

You can see YAHWEH in action if you observe the JEWS in a physical sense keeping or fulfilling the Law. You can also see YAHWEH in action whenever you observe the JEWS transgressing the Law. I know that this saying is a contradiction, but, before you discount it, consider this: There is a spiritual side to the Law. Whenever you observe a Jew breaking the Sabbath, you have a spiritual picture of YAHWEH bringing a sacrifice. The two acts are actually one and the same. YAHWEH does not sacrifice in the stead of anyone. YAHWEH sacrifices whenever anyone sins, and what is it that YAHWEH sacrifices? Is it not the life of the one who sins? So, sacrifice is a way of becoming. Sacrifice is the way that YAHWEH justly takes the life of a sinner and then transforms that sinner into a saint. This is what the whole burnt offerings are all about.

Now, what happens if a man should discover this secret and then determine to bring about the conclusion of sacrifice in a spiritual sense, the sacrifice of sacrifices, the death of all sinners? If you understand what is going on in sacrifice, or if you discover the internal workings of sacrifice, you can begin to actively participate and fulfill various roles. This Messiah did accomplish. I submit that if one accomplishes the works of YAHWEH, one is YAHWEH. I AM THAT I AM!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-27-2001, 10:40 AM

...Spying, if there is no ashem, then there is no atoneing work to compliment the idea of salvation through a sacrificial work. But if you think it possible, find one. An ashem is an offering presented by fire. If (jesus) is to be one of these, than his body must be given to the flames. {even the rest of the pascel lamb is given to the flames} Since his body is to be your body, and there has been no ashem as yet, won't you be included in this atonement? Won't all christians? It would serve christianity right, in that no other faith has been such a curse to YHWH's people, as the faith of christianity. It's the only faith that needs (bad JEWs) to build its faith upon. If there has been another faith more caustic to the JEWish people, than christianity, name it. The count of JEWish bodies, piles highest where christians live. A curse for a curse. Justice is not righteousness. Justice is ugly. What is just for those who have made the JEWish people, its JEWs, is not something that I want to dwell upon. I hope that righteousness, is more important then justice is, to YHWH. An oven for the ovens, may be the reality of your sacrificial faith. It's better that you learn to love the name of the JEWish soul. YHWH is moved by compassion for his people. Consider all of the enemies of the JEWish people, where has history put them. Nations have come and gone. Read what the prophets say, concerning the fate of those who make themselves the enemies of the JEWish people. You seldom quote these passages of text. You instead point out how "bad" the JEWs are. You seem unable to believe in JEWish righteousness. Yet you think that your own debt to YHWH is paid. Consider just who YHWH is. Do you want to meet him, having not yet vindicated his people? And if YHWH and Yahudah turn out to be the same name, what have you given to this name? One could do to the germans, what they themselves did to the JEWs. It would be just. But would it be righteousness? Are you ready to fall into the pit that your faith dug for the JEWish people?

....Michael

Spying

06-27-2001, 09:08 PM

Hi Thummim,

I don't often do this sort of thing, but before I say my prayers and lay my head on my pillow this night, I want you to know that your last two responses to me on this thread were in my opinion exceptional! I have got my work cut out for me. May you sleep well.

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

06-28-2001, 05:19 AM

Hi Thummim,

You said,
These early christians seem to have no Levitical knowledge at all.That totally depends upon your perspective, Thummim. Do you have access to a Talmud? Let's possibilitize together for awhile. Allow for the possibility that Messiah was operating throughout his earthly ministry on a level undiscerned by all those around him. Turn to the Tractate Yoma and read from the Mishnah the blessings that the high priest was required to recite on the Day of Atonement. These blessings begin chapter vii. I do not know the wording of the actual recited blessings in the physical Temple ritual, but I can see a correlation between the eight categories listed in the Mishnah and the spoken words of Yahushua which I have quoted above on this thread. Messiah's last words are blessings, and some take on the aspect of prayer. If Yahushua is the completion of the Law, then even the requirements of the Oral Law are important. This is something which I take for granted. I no longer question whether Yahushua also was working to fulfill Oral Law on the Cross. I only question how it all fits together? I believe that Yahushua would have closely followed the order of the blessings. So, if I have listed his spoken words in the correct chronological order, then it is easy to assign them to the list of blessings. The words "IT IS FINISHED" were spoken as a blessing for the Priesthood. This would lead me to think that the phrase applies to the consecration of the new priesthood ordained by Yahushua through his suffering. I am a priest in this priesthood.

If Messiah was in the process of consecrating a new priesthood according to the requirements of the Law, then a whole host of processes come together and find fulfillment at the Cross.

Now, both the Pharisees and Sadducees had a big problem with this type of insight. When we begin to explore this area (looking at the Cross with spiritual eyes), all those who cannot see behind the veil become extremely uncomfortable. The Pharisee might have said, "Hey, no way, Spying. You have the wrong day and the wrong season. It is Passover and not the Day of Atonement." That is an excellent observation. In order for me to be right, then I must be willing to prove that Yahushua was somehow able to bring all the various services and sacrifices together in himself on the Cross. This is essential if Yahushua is the completion of the Law. Most simply accept this as being true. That's ok, but belief should be based upon knowledge. So, we should work to prove it true. In the same manner, the Sadducee might have said, "Spying, you have a screw loose. Yahushua was not a priest. He was from the tribe of Judah. By Law he cannot do our work. He had no authority to ordain a new priesthood no matter what you think you see concerning his suffering and death." This is also an excellent observation, and we should work to answer it as I am sure that we will. So, you are correct, Thummim, Levitical knowledge is an important consideration!

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-28-2001, 05:57 AM

Hi Spying,

You missed my whole point of my last post. You didn't dare to comment, even. There must be intelligent people reading this thread to notice that. You shifted your attention to a play in words to justify your fixation in a dysfunctional Christianity. You are working on the assumption that Jesus Christ is Yahweh Almighty or co-equal to him and a member of the fearsome "trinity."
"YAHWEH" is the Hebrew physical name of our ELOHIM. Like most names, the name "YAHWEH", has a meaning.You are saying that most names have a meaning, so what about the names that do not have any meaning? You are not applying an absolute rule. I wouldn't be looking for a meaning when we are not told to do so. The "I am who I am" statement doesn't prove your point. It is inconclusive. It was used to make a point about the nature of Almighty Yahweh not to define the meaning of a name. Even you don't know if perchance it might have been "I will be what I will be" or maybe "Que sera… sera..." for the same reason. I believe that you are applying the espiritualizing rule "to favor the faith" and keep the bread on the table coming. You are only making assertive statements that Jesus Christ was the promised messiah, A_men!!!??? He never delivered anything, but past, present and future death and destruction to the Jews. Oh, I forgot he is also showing a carrot hanging from a string at the end of a stick. And this is precisely how he is getting away with murder in the last 2000 years. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Spying

06-28-2001, 06:34 AM

Hi Thummim,

The Apostle Paul generally followed a certain method of operation as he carried forth the Gospel to the Diaspora. He always went to the Jew first:
Acts 13:4-5
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of ELOHIM in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. (KJV)

Acts 13:14-15
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (KJV)

Acts 14:1
1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. (KJV)

Acts 17:1-4
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Messiah must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Yahushua, whom I preach unto you, is Messiah.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
(KJV)

Acts 17:10-12
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. (KJV)

Acts 17:16-17
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. (KJV)

Acts 18:1-4
1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome: ) and came unto them.
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (KJV)

Acts 19:8
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of ELOHIM. (KJV)

Acts 28:23-24
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of ELOHIM, persuading them concerning Yahushua, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. (KJV)So, Thummim, the Gospel did go to the Jew first. Now, it must go to the Gentile. We will in our own way duplicate the effort of Paul and company. Only, this time, the work begins with the Gentile, and then it goes again to the Jew. The last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

What do you think Paul spent so much time in the synagogues arguing with his fellow Jews about? Ha, ha, they argued about the same things that we are arguing about on this forum. I can almost hear them:
Paul, you are quite mad. How can a man be a lamb, a goat, a bullock, and also a heifer? If you say he is an animal, what about the meal offerings? Get real? We know where he was crucified. He was executed outside the gate. There is no altar at that location. Certainly, if Yahushua had been slain at the Altar inside the camp we might be forced to take seriously some of your wild assertions. As it is, we have wasted quite enough of our precious time arguing these issues with you.And so, it begins again!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-28-2001, 07:07 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, you are quite mad. How can a man be a lamb, a goat, a bullock, and also a heifer? If you say he is an animal, what about the meal offerings? Get real? We know where he was crucified. He was executed outside the gate. There is no altar at that location. Certainly, if Yahushua had been slain at the Altar inside the camp we might be forced to take seriously some of your wild assertions. As it is, we have wasted quite enough of our precious time arguing these issues with you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My feelings exactly. No matter how you do it, it comes out wrong!

....Michael

Spying

06-29-2001, 06:10 AM

Hi Thummim,

I believe that Messiah entered into a New Covenant with his disciples on the night that he was betrayed. That betrayal and Messiah's resultant pending suffering and death necessitated the establishment of a New Covenant. The first covenant was a marriage. The second covenant was a marriage. In a marriage relationship the two parties are one. They can act independently, but they are one. Whatever happens to the one, happens to the other.

I have already asserted that whenever a Jew sins, YAHWEH sacrifices. YAHWEH will slay the one who sins. Whenever sin and sacrificing concerns HIS wife, what is YAHWEH to do? For the most part, YAHWEH dealt with HIS wife's transgressions very patiently. Yet, at times, YAHWEH was forced to act. So, whenever YAHWEH did slay those who sinned against HIM, HE generally used the heathen world as HIS instrument of death. So, YAHWEH would kill (sacrifice), but not fully. The marriage continued because YAHWEH always saved a remnant.

What really happens to the surviving partner in a marriage, whenever a spouse dies? I see it over and over. I am in a lot of homes of the elderly. They are not the same after their spouse of many years dies. After a time, all they themselves are doing is waiting for death to overtake them also because death has already entered their relationship. YAHWEH in HIS relationship with the Jews was in a similar situation. YAHWEH really loved HIS wife, big time. Despite all her unfaithfulness, HE really loved her. How do I know that? Because I can see that when it came time for YAHWEH HIMSELF (Messiah) to die, I can see that YAHWEH did establish a New Covenant with a remnant in order that HIS relationship could continue through and beyond death. YAHWEH is always saving a remnant.

So, what does this all mean? It means that you are right about the Passover Lamb. If YAHWEH through Messiah is the Passover Lamb, when Messiah entered into a New Covenant with his disciples, then he indeed made his disciples also a part of the Passover Lamb because the two parties of a marriage are one. When he died, they died. What happens to all those who do not enter into the New Covenant? All they are doing is waiting for death to overtake them also. The Jews became a widow, and the world became fatherless. Wow, what do you think about that? Be careful how you answer!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-29-2001, 07:32 AM

...And if (jesus) isn't the messiah, will you have to make all new arguments?

Spying

06-30-2001, 09:12 AM

Hi Thummim,

The author of the Letter to the Hebrews equates the suffering of Yahushua on the Cross to the burning of the sin offerings outside the camp:
Heb 13:11-12
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Yahushua also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. (KJV)Completely disregarding the level of Levitical knowledge required to make such an observation, I desire that you recognize one spiritual thought that is being expressed in his comment. I desire that you hone in on it. In the author's mind, the burning of offerings is synonymous with suffering. The author has looked upon physical animals burning outside the camp, and he fully recognizes and believes that the suffering of Messiah Yahushua on the Cross is the fulfillment of those offerings. Let's admit that he may be right or he may be wrong, but let us also fully admit that the author, who no doubt is a Jew, is no longer looking upon sacrifice in purely physical terms. He knows that the physical animals represent something spiritual, and he knows that what is required to happen to those physical animals also represents something spiritual. In his mind, physical burning is symbolic for suffering.

Now, Jewish mystics have for millennia being seeking to understand the hidden or secret meaning behind the physical animal sacrifices. My comment concerning their effort is the comment of another. These mystics are:
2 Tim 3:7
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (KJV)Why? It is precisely because they are unable to look upon the Cross of Messiah Yahushua and place that Cross in its proper context. I said that for your sake. :) If they were able to do so, then they would be able to understand their own history and experience because the Cross has a lot to say about their own suffering.

You made this comment:
Ash means fire in hebrew. No passover lamb can atone for sin. The blood of this lamb is used as a sign that the people of Israel are in covenant with their Eloheem. (Gen.15:9-18) This covenant is not for sin. It is a contract between Abraham and YHWH. With the blood of the pascel lamb, YHWH separates his people from the Egyptians and shows that this people are his own. Levitically speaking, the Passover Lamb is considered a peace offering (Hopefully, a post will be forthcoming with an explanation to that effect), and, yes, the lamb does show who the covenanted people are. Then, Thummim, you continue on to properly make this assessment:
...Spying, if there is no ashem, then there is no atoneing work to compliment the idea of salvation through a sacrificial work. But if you think it possible, find one. An ashem is an offering presented by fire. If (jesus) is to be one of these, than his body must be given to the flames. {even the rest of the pascel lamb is given to the flames} Since his body is to be your body, and there has been no ashem as yet, won't you be included in this atonement? Won't all christians? Yes, we absolutely would, and, yes, we have, and, yes, we are. This I will endeavor to make known to you and Stranger in my next post.

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

06-30-2001, 09:22 AM

Hi Thummim and Stranger,

You thought that I was ignoring you, didn't you, Stranger? You are very much on my mind. You believe that I am a Christian, and you believe that I support historical Christianity because I believe in the first assembly, the Apostolic Assembly. You also are aware that I consider myself to be part of a resurrected assembly. You also should be aware that I consider Christianity apart from the first assembly to be apostate. I do not justify or support the actions or beliefs of historical Christianity much past the first century to the present. Now, you are going to know why.

Yahushua is the Passover Lamb. Yahushua entered into covenant with the first assembly. Thus, Yahushua made his disciples one with himself and, therefore, they were made one with the the Passover Lamb. It is commanded that the Passover must first be roasted with fire, and then it must be eaten:
Exod 12:8
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. (KJV)If the suffering of Messiah was a burning or roasting by fire, what could it possibly mean that his disciples are to eat his flesh? Messiah said:
John 6:53-56
53 Then Yahushua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (KJV)What develops flesh in a physical sense? Is it not our activity? We all develop muscle through learning first how to raise our head. Then, we learn to reach out for things with our hands. Then we learn to crawl, then pulling up. Eventually, we learn to walk, and finally, we learn to run. All of this activity develops flesh. Without eating, that is, doing the activity, we would have no flesh. All of this is also true in a spiritual sense. What develops spiritual muscle (where are you, Seventh Angel)? Spiritual activity develops spiritual muscle. The more the activity, the more the power or strength of the muscle that is developed. If we are commanded to eat the flesh of Messiah roasted, what are we really being commanded to do? Are we not being told that we must also accomplish the will of YAHWEH and finish HIS work? Are we not also being told that we must suffer in the process? We surely are! Look at what is eventually demanded concerning the Passover. Whatever remains of the Passover must be burned with fire:
Exod 12:10
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. (KJV)Was our Passover slain? Yes he was. Messiah is the head. He suffered. We are the body. We must also suffer. Did the first assembly suffer as commanded? Did they eat the flesh roasted with fire? They surely did:
1 Pet 4:12-19
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Messiah's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Messiah, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of ELOHIM resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify ELOHIM on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of ELOHIM: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of ELOHIM?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of ELOHIM commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. (KJV)Humm? I wonder what happened to them all after they endured their roasting, after they ate their food? Do you think that after their faith was tried, like Messiah and Abraham, that they were also consumed by fire as it is commanded? It surely happened to them as commanded. They suffered martyrdom just like Messiah, and that is why I teach that the first Assembly did not survive that burning.

The Christianity that you both intensely dislike is not the living body of Messiah, but it is masquerading as his living body.

You asked for one ashem, Thummim. Is the death of the first assembly sufficiently fiery enough for you?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-01-2001, 06:43 AM

...Spying, it is interesting to see that Paul is aware of the flaw, in trying to present his messiah's sacrifice by the Romans, as an ashem. I hadn't noticed this before. The lie becomes obvious though, if you try to present this execution as an ashem. There is still no atoning work without the ashem. Spiritual ashems are like bringing spiritual offerings to give to YHWH, in lew of the real thing. I consider the blood of the pascel lamb to be synonomus with the blood of circumcision. Putting this blood upon the upper door posts and the side posts of all the dwellings of the covenanted people, makes an obvious statement. It says, "I have bound this people to me!" Does death dare cross it? This is the message of Gen.11:7, "YHWH doth put a distinction between the Mitzraim and Israel." Israel is in covenant with YHWH. This covenant was made with Abraham and was renewed by the patriarchs of Israel, with their Eloheem. The pascel lamb is not for atonement. During the passover, the covenant is reconfirmed. The 28th chapter of numbers, 16-25, will show you that all the ashems are still required at Pesach.

....Michael

Spying

07-01-2001, 08:31 AM

Hi Thummim,

The author of the Letter to the Hebrews, who I also believe is Paul, does not in any fashion try to present that the suffering of Messiah outside the camp is the fulfillment of the whole burnt offerings which ascend inside the camp. Thummim, Paul tells you what he is saying. Why do you misrepresent what he saying, and then claim that he is presenting a lie through his line of reasoning. You yourself show your lack of Levitical knowledge when you make such arguments or comments.

You asked that I find you one ashem. I did. I am the one that you should be accusing, not Paul.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-01-2001, 09:36 AM

...Spying, (jesus) is not an ashem no matter what Paul says. Where is the fire that makes the crucifiction, an ashem? I see no fire. This is just like the faith of christianity, too me. You point to what is not there and say, "see!" But I don't see. We have a deliverer that doesn't deliver his own people --> Isa.53:8 {my people}, that is out of his time -->{leaving Babylon}, that burns in a fire that is not there. You haven't shown me an ashem. I have shown you that an atonement is always an ashem. I have shown you that the pascel lamb is not a replacement for any of the "Levitical ashems" that are yet required with this lamb. Why do you try to claim a victory, when you haven't made your case. Paul, like you, has to point to a fire that doesn't exist, in claiming his ashem. He doesn't make his case either.

....Michael

Thummim

07-01-2001, 12:07 PM

...Spying, are you trying to present the first assembly as an atoning work, given to the flames, figuratively? I don't understand what you are saying. Is (jesus) and this first assembly, your atoning work? or is (jesus) himself, the atoning work that you are presenting?, It seems that those who burned the people of YHWH have a better claim on having presented a human ashem, then whatever ashem that you are claiming. {assuming that you are claiming any ashem in behalf of your sin} Why would YHWH require the slaughter of innocence? {innocent blood defiles the land and it itself must be atoned for} YHWH requires no such thing. While the servant of Isa. 53 is called an ashem, does it really have anything to do with fire? I see no ashem in human flesh, exceptable to expiate sin, that YHWH will except as righteousness. Does YHWH ask for the burning of anything JEWish to atone for sin? {a son, or a people?} The whole idea of an atoning work in human flesh, doesn't work. Not a crucifixion or an ashem. The antithesis of justice, is to make the innocent pay the debt of the transgressor. This is the toll that the transgressor lays upon the innocent himself. It is why he is brought before the judge in the first place. If the judge is happy with the deeds of the transgressor, why bring him before the judge at all? It is the liberation from Babylon, that Isa.53, belongs too. There just is no need for (jesus) as a human sacrifice, to be presented to YHWH. That is what I am trying to get at. A true ashem, is the burning of an animal, as payment to YHWH, for having sinned. (the fire of the altar is seen as YHWH's place for recieving the fine {atonement} *fire = YHWH*). There is no requirement for the suffering of this animal. The fire is a symbol of YHWH, so the payment (as fine) can be given to him. I think that Isaiah, is trying to present Israel, as though this nation were a single person, {Isa.44:21} who was led to their slaughter (like a lamb), to atone for the sins of YHWH's people. It is really YHWH's people, that have paid their own debt to YHWH, for having offended him. (YHWH, through his prophets, said they would, that's what their captivity is all about.) Isaiah in his own knowledge, esteems Israel as the suffering servant. {Isa.23:12;52:4;Jer.50:33} If a man is esteemed an asham by Isaiah, he in no way is thinking that a fire is used in the place of YHWH, to recieve the offering. By writing "ashem", the prophet Isaiah is parallaling Israel with true "Levitical ashem". Or if an individual is meant by Isaiah as the suffering servant, the parallel is the same. This all leads to the liberation from Babylon or Assyria, debt paid! When I say that there is no ashem in (jesus), I write that a crucifixion can not stand in place of an offering made by fire, if an exceptable offering for sin is to be given to YHWH. I also am making the same parallel that Isaiah makes to a Levitical ashem. There is no logic in YHWH requiring his own people (or his son) to pay himself, the debt for the oppressors of his people. {Joel3:14=Joel3:2,19} YHWH is the offended party. Why would he require the innocent blood of his own people, to expiate the debt of foreigners?The idea of (jesus) as sacrifice doesn't fly, if he is to be an offering for sin. I need to clear some confusion that we have between us.

....Michael

Spying

07-02-2001, 01:49 PM

Hi Thummim,

Yes, I am looking at burnt offerings in a figurative sense. I brought Paul into the argument to show you that he was also looking at the Cross in a figurative sense. There was no physical suffering through physical fire at the Cross. So, if Paul argues that the suffering of Messiah on the Cross was synonymous with the burning of various animals outside the camp, then, in Paul's mind, suffering and death is to be equated with burning by physical fire. In his mind, fire is a figure for suffering and dying. Carry that thought one step further, and we learn a valuable lesson about the nature of YAHWEH:
Heb 12:29
29 For our ELOHIM is a consuming fire. (KJV)Now, Paul does not present an argument in Hebrews that the fire outside the camp is the same as the fire inside the camp. I wish that he would have. Even so, in my thinking at some point the fire outside the camp must become the fire inside the camp if Messiah Yahushua is the Messiah. I say that because of all the offerings (holocausts) that are burned on the Altar inside the camp. Even the sin offerings which were burned outside the camp, even they had various parts which were burned on the Altar inside the camp:
Lev 4:19
19 And he shall take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar. (KJV)

Lev 4:21
21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation. (KJV)I have been seeking to understand exactly how Messiah was able to make the transition from outside the camp, where the ashes are dumped, to inside the camp at the Altar where the ashes are generated by fire upon the Altar of Burnt Offering. There are a number of different ways that the issue can be approached. Jumping ahead, I know that the transition did take place because of the historical experience of the first assembly. They also suffered and died through martyrdom. Thus they became a holocaust being one with Messiah.

The holocausts that were offered upon the Altar were offered according to how the animal walked. So, the head was offered first with the right hind leg. The right hind leg is symbolic for our spiritual walk, the accomplishment of spiritual righteousness. The tail was offered with the left hind leg. The left hind leg is symbolic for the accomplishment of physical righteousness. If Messiah is the head, then who is the tail and of what is the tail symbolic?
Deut 28:43-44
43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head (Elohim fearing Gentiles), and thou shalt be the tail. (Jews who do not heed the voice of YAHWEH) (KJV)

Isa 9:14-21
14 Therefore the YAHWEH will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
17 Therefore the Adonai shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
19 Through the wrath of the YAHWEH of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. (KJV)There is no doubt in my mind that Messiah was able to cut off all of mankind in one day through his Crucifixion, and there is no doubt in my mind that the head of the Daily Sacrifice was offered upon the spiritual Altar at the Crucifixion. While the whole world (the whole animal) did die with Messiah, this does not mean that the whole world was offered up and burnt with Messiah. The whole world died in the cutting off of Messiah. Now, for Messiah it becomes merely a matter of offering up the various parts of this world in the prescribed manner if Messiah is the High Priest. The first assembly played its part. They were the right leg. This is why Peter says that judgment must begin with the household of ELOHIM. As it is written:
Zeph 3:5
5 The just YAHWEH is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame.
(KJV)Eventually, the tail is offered for none of us are excluded from this judgment. All of us have a part to play. Each of us must find our place upon the Altar, each of us in our own order.

So, Thummim, you were looking for one offering by fire. Now, you have more than one. From my perspective, the Jewish Holocaust could very well have been a fulfillment concerning the offering up of the slain offerings upon the Altar. That scares the daylights out of me because the tail is not the last thing offered up in the Daily Sacrifice.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-03-2001, 06:49 AM

...I believe that the fires of the Levitical code serve different purposes. The fire of the altar is the doorway to YHWH. What is given on this altar is presented to YHWH, such as a gift or a fine. These offerings have to be dealt with carefully so as not to defile YHWH. The fire used outside the camp has a different purpose. It is to {consume} sin, death, and infirmedy. These things would be defiling of YHWH and can not be given to YHWH. A portion of an clean animal may be given to YHWH, but where defilement is to be consumed, the fires must be kept separate. We have an example of {strange fire} being used upon YHWH's altar. Aarons sons, Nadab and Abihu "crossed their fires" and allowed a consuming {cleansing} fire to be used on YHWH's altar. The fire of this altar consumed them both. The fire used outside the camp, is not symbolic of YHWH as is the fire of the altar that is used inside the camp. The fire that burns outside the camp, is removed from the people, for a reason. It is not YHWH. It is not clean. Many defiling things are given to this fire. Somewhere in the Levitical code, it is commanded not to cross fires. (Lev.10:1). I can not find any text on this commandment given to Nadab and Abihu, only a reference to it. It is obvious though, that one should not cross their fires for fear of incurring YHWH's wrath.

....Michael

Spying

07-04-2001, 11:29 AM

Hi Thummim,

Listen to yourself:
These offerings have to be dealt with carefully so as not to defile YHWH.You are not telling me that the Most Holy One can be defiled through anything that we may do, are you? Did Nadab and Abihu defile YAHWEH through their activity? How can the Most Holy One of Israel, the very one who sanctifies Israel, possibly be defiled through their sin? To be sure, YAHWEH'S holy name can be defiled through our sin. This is especially understood if one views the Sacred Name as being descriptive of YAHWEH'S activity as it surely is. Moses said,
Deut 32:2-4
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of (the) YAHWEH: ascribe ye greatness unto our ELOHIM.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a ELOHIM of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. (KJV)Samuel said concerning YAHWEH:
1 Sam 2:2
2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (KJV)David confesses concerning YAHWEH:
Ps 145:17
17 (The) YAHWEH is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. (KJV)Since there is none greater than YAHWEH in ways or deeds, I ask again, how is it that you say that the lesser, Nadab and Abihu, or even you or me, how could you say that the Most Holy One could possibly be defiled by our activity?

Change you thinking, Thummim. Is it not written concerning the Altar that it is most holy?
Exod 29:37
37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy. (KJV)If the Altar of Burnt Offering is sanctified and made most holy according to the word of YAHWEH, why are you of the contrary opinion that anyone or anything touching the Altar would defile YAHWEH?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-04-2001, 01:03 PM

...Haggai 2:12,13 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No. Then said Haggai, if one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall he be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.

...There is a wall of holiness that surrounds YHWH which is always maintained by the priests. YHWH implies to Moses that he would defile the ground that YHWH is speaking to him from, if he doesn't take off his shoes. You don't know what those shoes might have walked upon. (Ex.3:5) Lev.11:45 says, "For I am the YHWH that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your GD: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." YHWH's name can be profaned, as you have said, and his sanctuary can be defiled. (Lev.20:3; Eze.43:8) While YHWH himself may always be holy, he doesn't like falling into the septic. Every attempt is made to keep YHWH separate from anything unclean. My argument is that the fire that touches the unclean, is not the same fire, that is used on the holy altar. This fire burns outside of the camp for a reason. The altar of YHWH can be profaned, even if YHWH cannot. The ashes of the fire that burns outside of the camp, are used to cleanse YHWH's people from their infirmities and to cleanse them from having touched death. Breaking down the wall of righteousness that surrounds YHWH, is unwise. This is why I think that there are different fires that are used in the Levitical priesthood. The wrong fire is not representitive of YHWH. {Ex.29:36; Lev.16:19; Eze.43:22} --> what kind of an altar needs cleansing? The altar must be cleansed if YHWH is to recieve offerings upon it. IIKi.23:16 says, "And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepultures that were there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepultures, and burned them upon the altar, and polluted it, acording to the word of YHWH which the man of GD proclaimed, who proclaimed these words. This is the altar of Bethel, that is, "the house of EL", though it was no doubt used to serve other GD's. The altar of YHWH can be polluted. Here the symbolism suggests that Jeroboam would loose the goodwill of YHWH, because of his transgressions.

....Michael

Stranger

07-06-2001, 06:44 PM

Hi Spying,
Since there is none greater than YAHWEH in ways or deeds, I ask again, how is it that you say that the lesser, Nadab and Abihu, or even you or me, how could you say that the Most Holy One could possibly be defiled by our activity? You seem to forget that in Christian mythology, the Jesus Christ became the most sinful person in the world while hanging at the cross. As such, he realized that his "father" abandoned him. "Why hast thou forsaken me?" was the cry mumbled from the cross. The "holey trinity" got split in 2 parts, the most holey part composed of "the father and the holey spook," and the most sinful part namely, the Jesus Christ! The Christians explain that the Jesus Christ at the cross was totally disconnected from his "holey father" because his "holey father" cannot possibly stand the sight of sin (it is something like Superman to Kryptonite). So when the Jesus Christ was interceding for the Roman soldiers that were crucifying him, "father, forgive them because they know not what they are doing" his prayer fell on his "holey father"'s deaf ears. Likewise when he said, "father in your hand I commit my [sinful(?)] ghost" (no relation to the "holey spook," I guess). I am looking at the whole context here from the Christian perspective, OK Spying?

So as I read your Nadab and Abihu bit, I wonder if you bear in mind what the Christians believe about defiling the Almighty. Just imagine the #2 character of the "holey trinity" the co-equal to the "father" and the "holey spook" defiling himself by becoming the most sinful person in the world… So for a few hours the "holey trinity" was summerged in sinfulness. If the "father" = the "holey spook" and the "holey spook" = the "son," then the "son" = the "father," and the "son" = the "holey spook," and they are all one and the same... Oh heck! This is so dysfunctional that I simply can't believe!

Stranger

07-07-2001, 06:06 AM

OK, Spying… I am giving your message a lot more thought than I thought to give. I assume that you subscribe to the "holey trinity" dogma. If so you must believe that the Jesus Christ was in fact the very same Creator of the universe whom you call "THE YAHWEH." You are saying that at a given moment the Jesus Christ died in a symbolic death for all of humanity. If that were the case, how do you square the split of the "holey trinity"? Did it ceased to exist as such for the next 3 nights and days? Did they become a "holey duet"? Not that I care for an answer to peace my intellect. I'm bringing up these questions to see if they have any effect on your intellect. It was Adolf Hitler who said that the bigger the lie the more people would believe it.

Spying

07-07-2001, 07:28 AM

Hi Thummim,

I know that this is your premise:
My argument is that the fire that touches the unclean, is not the same fire, that is used on the holy altar.If it is according to the will of YAHWEH that all those offerings, whose blood are brought into either the Holy or Most Holy Place, if it is according to HIS will that they be burned outside the camp, and all HIS ways are perfect, why do you say that the fire outside the camp is unholy or strange fire?

Fire is a purifier. All things that can stand the test of fire are purified through fire apart from the Altar of Burnt Offering:
Num 31:23
23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water. (KJV)If regular fire cleanses according to the word of YAHWEH, why would you maintain that the fire outside the camp is unholy fire. Fire is fire. The essential difference between the fire inside the camp and the fire outside the camp is one of kindling. The fire outside the camp must be kindled. The fire inside the camp is perpetual, ever burning. The perpetual fire inside the camp is used to offer sweet incense every day before YAHWEH in the Holy Place. Thus, the fire inside the camp in my mind does have a special holiness because this fire directly originates from YAHWEH. Even so, that does not make the fire outside the camp unholy or strange. As far as I am concerned, nothing done or accomplished according to the Word of YAHWEH is unholy or strange.

Nadab and Abihu apparently sinned because they burned incense upon the Altar of Incense within the Holy Place with fire that they had themselves personally kindled when that fire should have been taken from the Altar of Burnt Offering.

So, I cannot say for certain at this point, Thummim, whether you are right or wrong about the fire outside the camp being considered unholy, but I suspect not. I do know that fat and blood are forbidden to men; yet, the Altar of Burnt Offering, which is the table of YAHWEH, receives both through the sin and trespass offerings. If the sin offerings are unclean as you say, then both the Altar and priests consume unclean food. The Word of YAHWEH calls the sin and trespass offerings "most holy".

Now, you can argue that both are made holy because they both touch the Altar and Holy Fire, but I don't think that you will argue so because you have already argued above that the unholy is to be kept separate from YAHWEH. You are in a hard place to fight your way out of.

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

07-07-2001, 09:08 AM

Hi Stranger,

Good Sabbath to you! It is dangerous to give my message alot of thought. My message is contagious!

I don't want to change the subject on this thread, but I am not a Trinitarian. Messiah Yahushua is the resurrected YAHWEH. He is only a son in the sense that YAHWEH sowed HIS seed, HIS spirit in the earth when YAHWEH created Adam and Eve. This can be compared to a death and burial. Messiah said,
John 12:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
(KJV)So, YAHWEH sowed HIS seed in man. In doing so, HE gave HIS spirit to both wheat and tares. The wheat is YAHWEH. Messiah Yahushua saw and knew the truth of what I am saying here. Messiah Yahushua gathered the wheat by bringing all of YAHWEH'S spirit back together again at the Cross. This gathering included gathering also the tares for they were also given of HIS good spirit. The difference between the wheat and the tares is one of election. I was picked. If I am right about you, you were also picked. If you are YAHWEH, if Bratu is YAHWEH, if I am YAHWEH, if Messiah is YAHWEH, then YAHWEH is not a trinity.

Because this gathering did occur at the Cross, there is alot happening at the Cross that is not readily apparent. YAHWEH is also through the Cross of Messiah recovering the spirit which was lost through the rebellion of Satan and his/her legions. This basically occurs through seduction. Satan and his legions could not resist the temptation of the moment so they gave their spirit over to man. In human sexual thought, what occurred to Messiah on the Cross was a rape. There is a coupling that takes place between good and evil, and evil appears to overwhelm the good. Nature gave indication of this overwhelming through the storm and darkness that surrounded the Cross. It is commanded:
Deut 22:25-27
25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. (KJV)Messiah did cry out in a loud voice over this defilement:
MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME?So, Messiah is guiltless in this matter. Satan, however, is guilty. He lost his seed, and he knows it. Is YAHWEH mad about this rape? Yes, exceedingly! In a short time, we will take our revenge.

Now, all of this has a bearing on the issue that we are presently discussing as to whether or not YAHWEH, who is holy, will suffer defilement? That is why I bring it up at this point as an answer to you.

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

07-07-2001, 09:41 AM

I honestly didn't know that Yahweh was dead...
Messiah Yahushua is the resurrected YAHWEH...

Is YAHWEH mad about this rape?I noticed that you use a lot of abstract interpretations of what the truth ought to be. You are talking about seed (sperm?) I don't know. It seems that you change the impretation of anything as you go... I thought you were a Lutheran, now I'm really confused.

Spying

07-08-2001, 10:26 AM

Hi Stranger,

Man is a physical image of a spiritual being.
Job 14:14
14 If a man die, shall he live again? (KJV)If the image dies, cannot we rightly question whether the source of the image, YAHWEH, does indeed die? The image, man, lives. YAHWEH, the source of the image, lives eternally. Man dies. If the image dies, then it is not unreasonable to suspect that the source of the image must in some fashion die. If the source of the image does indeed die and lives again, then man knows for certain, because man is the image, that he will live again!

There is a pattern to the eternal life of YAHWEH. It is his WAY. YAHWEH will give of HIMSELF completely in order that others will have opportunity to experience HIS WAY. To follow YAHWEH'S WAY takes faith, hope, and love. To give of oneself completely, to hold nothing back in order that others might live is the pattern of YAHWEH. Paul said it in this fashion:
Phil 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Messiah Yahushua:
6 Who, being in very nature ELOHIM, did not consider equality with ELOHIM something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! (NIV)If you are something, and if you make yourself nothing, if you are full, and if you empty yourself, is this not comparable to a death? YAHWEH emptied HIMSELF into mankind. This is similar to falling to the ground and dying. This emptying of oneself takes faith, love, and hope. Messiah saw this pattern of his Heavenly Father, and he followed in his Father's footsteps, believing in the pattern, being obedient to the pattern.

Does this Way work? Ha, ha, yes, it does!! How do I know that? Well, Messiah Yahushua rose from the dead, did he not?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-08-2001, 12:19 PM

...Spying, are you just trying to argue with me? You yourself know that the fire of YHWH's altar is a symbol of YHWH. This is how he appeared to Moses. There are two separate fires at work here. If these fires were not meant to be kept separate, then there would be only a single fire. The priest is to separate the holy from the profane. He maintains a division between that which is clean and that which is unclean. This is his job. YHWH is holy. YHWH's people are also to be holy. Be holy as I am holy can also be written, {be clean as I am clean.} Being clean means that "divisions" must be maintained. Two fires exist to facilitate this "separation". Inside the camp, it is clean. Those who would contaminate the holiness of YHWH and his people, are kept outside the camp. The fires from outside the camp are used for cleansing. The fire of the holy altar is a doorway to YHWH. Through this fire an offering as a gift, or as an atonement {a fine for having offended YHWH} can be presented to him.

...To maintain your faith, you are asked to believe that a virgin can give birth, that a man can be GD, that a man can get up from the grave {and others with him if you believe Mat 27:52,53}, that a man can be in three places at once so as to allow him to pray to himself, that a man can quite a storm at his command, can heal disease, can walk on water and turn the same water into wine, can place a mans ear back on him, so that it is healed instantly, even though a sword has just wacked it off some moments before, and can rise up into the heavens before the eyes of many witnesses. Do you know the word "gullible?" These are some of the things that your faith would have me believe. You can believe in such nonsense, but not in the righteousness of the JEWish people. You often seem two steps back from thinking of JEWs as christ killers. Instead of calling the few who had anything to do with the death of (jesus), guilty, you try to make the innocent of this world and those who occupy the name of GD, responsible. These had no choice in the death of your messiah. They cannot change action that they didn't take. Again, christianity gives the JEWish people, an uggly role to play in the christian drama. Christianity was the faith of the Nazi's, literally! It is also the faith of almost all of histories oppressors of the JEWish people. The KKK and their ilk, also find comfort in this faith. JEW haters always find shelter in the walls of christianity. You are also comfortable with christianity. You rationalize your faith constantly to try to make it seem like a good thing. I had hoped that in time, you would see christianity for the faith that it really is.

....Michael

Spying

07-09-2001, 07:49 AM

Hi Thummim,

Yes! I love to argue. YAH has blessed me with some ability along those lines. I will argue all sides of an issue in order to learn and in order to receive your best argument. When I reach the point whereby I am certain that I could slam dunk you, then usually I will back off in order not to cause you undue embarrassment. You have stayed focused, Thummim, learning and adjusting as you go, and that is good, that is what you have to do if you are going to argue with me.

Now, let's talk more about fire. If the fire inside the camp is representative of YAHWEH as you say and as I grudgingly admit :),(I actually look upon fire as being representative of the Word of YAH in action, a controlled burn), then what does the fire outside the camp represent? Why does the fire outside the camp in your opinion have less holiness than the fire inside the camp?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-09-2001, 08:26 AM

...Spying, the fire outside of the camp is more like a bar of soap floating in the bath tub. The unclean is all around it. When father says to us, I'm not letting you near me, until you scrub the filth off of you, then you are left with a bar of soap in your hands and a task to do. When clean, you get to rejoin the family. Malachi speaks of such a cleansing, "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiners fire, and like fullers soap." Mal. 3:2 The object of the two fires is to remove the filth from ones body, but not to bring it to the family and make it a family problem.

....Michael

Spying

07-10-2001, 06:21 AM

Hi Thummim,

Now, we are getting someplace. A Hasidic Jew, with whom I once studied, considered Malachi 3:2 to be a verse which refers to their coming Messiah. Is it the role of the Messiah to be a cleansing fire? It is interesting to me that you believe that this role is to be substantially fulfilled outside the camp. What do you think? Is the Adonai of verse one a reference to the long sought for Messiah?

At the same time that I questioned my Hasidic Jewish friend concerning Malachi 3:1-2, I also questioned him concerning YAHWEH'S promise to David concerning David's seed:
1 Chr 17:11-14
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. (KJV)It was his opinion that these verses also refer to the coming Messiah. What do you believe? Do you think that these verses are also messianic?

In light of these two references to the roles of a coming Messiah, I would appreciate hearing your answer to this question that I posed to my Jewish friend:
If Messiah must indeed build YAHWEH'S temple and possess a kingdom which will be everlasting, how is it that Malachi predicts that this same Messiah will suddenly come to his temple? How can anyone come to a temple before one builds that temple?When your answer is forthcoming, I will share with you my Jewish friend's answer.

If Malachi 3:1-2 is messianic, then Adonai is both the son of David and the son of YAHWEH. If YAHWEH'S fire is holy, should not the Son of YAHWEH'S fire be holy? If YAHWEH'S fire works inside the camp, and if Adonai's fire works outside the camp, why do you maintain that the Son's fire is strange fire?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-10-2001, 08:20 AM

...Solomon built a house for YHWH's name. David was not allowed to build it as he was a man of war. Solomom is the second king on Davids throne. The name of that throne is YaH"W"daH {Yahudah}. Since there is no king to follow Jehoiachin, the last of the kings in the line of David, YHWH himself is KING. Since he promised David an eternal throne, he is forced to fill it. Solomons temple is not Herod's (Ezra and Nehemiah's) temple. That negates your riddle. When you consider the order we are given in Malachi, for the events that he speaks of, it works out in this way; refiner {who cleanses the people} --> Elijah --> the day of YHWH, where the enemies of the JEWish people are distroyed. There are not 2000 years between Elijah and this terrible day of YHWH, when the righteous sun arises upon those who fear YHWH's name. Elijah returns to herold the distruction of Israel's enemies. If you presented YHWH an offering on the fire outside the camp, do you think that he would except it? Mix your fires and you will incur his wrath. The fire outside the camp, is not a symbol of YHWH. He takes his gifts and his atonements upon his altar, located inside the camp. These fires, because of there purposes, must be kept separate. The son, as you call him, isn't needed for the fire to meet its purpose. If you care for your messiah, get him out of the fire that burns outside of the camp. Mat.23:17,18 would put (jesus) on the altar of YHWH {inside the camp}. That is where the fire is a door to YHWH. If you want to atone {pay the fine}, then you must use the proper fire. But does YHWH require the innocent, to pay the dept of the transgressors? This is what the day of YHWH is for. They must pay their own debt.

....Michael

Spying

07-11-2001, 06:20 AM

Hi Thummim,

I thought that we were making some progress when you recognized that YAHWEH is represented by fire. Physical fire is not YAHWEH. I repeat: YAHWEH is not physical fire on a physical altar inside a physical camp located in a physical city east of the Mediterranean Sea. If YAHWEH were such a fire, then I could destroy YAHWEH with a simple garden hose attached to a faucet. In the same manner, YAHWEH does not dwell in a physical house made with physical hands. How many times must I tell you that MAN is the dwelling place of YAH? YAHWEH is spirit. YAHWEH breathed HIS spirit into Adam, and through Adam, mankind became the dwelling place of YAHWEH. You, yourself, a physical man, are a dwelling place of YAH until the day in which you die, Thummim. Then your spirit goes back to the ELOHIM that gave it in the first place.

Out of all the peoples of the earth, YAHWEH chose the Children of Israel to be HIS special dwelling place. Through covenant, YAH married Israel and made Israel one with HIMSELF. Israel is the body of YAH. She is HIS special house where HE caused HIS most holy name to dwell. HIS most holy name is not the physical name YAHWEH either physically spoken or physically written with physical letters. HIS most holy name is the righteous activity of YAH accomplished in HIS house. This righteous activity of YAH was first physically written upon physical stones to show Israel that she had a heart of stone. It is too this house of stone that the very presence of YAH, the WORD of YAH, does come through the prophets as a sign to Israel that she would someday be visited by YAH HIMSELF to make the WORD complete through his voice. This voice is Messiah Yahushua, who suddenly appeared to HIS House, the very House of YAH, the Children of Israel, whose hearts were stone.

The Children of Israel were not the true praisers of YAH. They were hearers of the WORD, but not doers. The true Jew, the true praiser of YAH, is a doer of the WORD. Yahushua came in the spirit and power of EliYah whose work was outside the camp (Concerning this, I have much more to say, but not in this post). Yahushua is the chief or king of the praisers of YAH. Yahushua is the King of the Jews. He is both of the physical seed and spiritual seed of David, a man after YAH'S own heart.

So, Thummim, in the same breath in which you say that my riddle is negated, you admit that Solomon's House (Temple) no longer exists. Solomon's Temple is the only house in which YAH caused HIS presence to dwell. If that house no longer exists, I ask again, how can Adonai suddenly appear to His Temple as the prophet predicts? He can't because you have no house, and you have no house because you cannot see the spiritual.

Thank you, Messiah, for the house not made with physical hands. Thank you, Messiah, for our hearts of flesh!!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-11-2001, 04:26 PM

...Spying, Moses met his GD in a burning bush that was not consumed by the fire of its burning. Moses set up the Levitical priesthood around the idea that YHWH could dwell in a fire and in thick dark clouds. As such, the children of Israel were led through the desert. The Levitical priesthood is not founded upon your beliefs. If you cannot except that the fire of his altar presents a door way to YHWH, then we needn't discuss the Levitical priesthood any more. The altar of YHWH doesn't use "spiritual" fire. In case it hasn't occured to you, Moses was not a christian. Neither would he allow any other peoples, to replace his own. YHWH presented this idea to Moses, out of anger, and Moses spurned the idea. Then Balak sought out Balaam to curse this people, and YHWH refused to allow it. There is no replacement for YHWH's people. Replacing this people is like trying to replace then name of Yahudah. Without this name, the faith of Moses would fall apart. Davids throne would cease to exist. There would be no need for the name of YHWH. Any curse against the JEWish people is also a curse against me. There can never be a replacement for the people of the book. The tanakh presents their own history. This book cannot be back written to replace the JEWs, with another people. Somedays I hate christianity so much, that the fire of my anger literally burns me. The single greatest blessing that the JEWish people could have had, would be if christianity had never existed.

....Michael

Spying

07-12-2001, 05:40 AM

Hi Thummim,

The Altar, the Fire on the Altar, the Sacrifices, the Priesthood, the Temple, the Holy Rooms, the Door, these all are symbols. They represent something. They teach something, and they teach someone; yet, they do not teach all. What value do they have as symbols? What are they necessary for? Thummim, everything in the physical is symbolic of something spiritual. This is especially true of the Altar. This also is true of Israel, and it is true of the Jewish people. Likewise, it is also true of the Christianity which you hate. Everything that you know and see in the physical will pass away. You know that is true because you have not encountered anything in the physical which is not decaying and passing away. You will pass away. So, will the Jewish people, and so also will Christianity. Why hate that which is passing away. It is here for a time. It will serve its purpose. Some are taught by these things according to the mercy and sure election of YAH. They are empowered to endure, but most are not. I would rather think of you as one who endures; rather, than one who does not.

Everything that you believe about the Jewish people can be transferred to Messiah Yahushua. He is a Jew. Why is he excluded from your love? Why is he an object of your hatred? Why are his disciples objects of your hatred. Do you have cause to burn with anger against them? Do you have cause to burn with anger against me? What has been my manner towards you and all others who have come here? Have I treated you with disrespect? Have I taken your money? No! I have freely and conscientiously given you of my time and experience, always hoping and thinking the best for you. I am a disciple of Messiah Yahushua. I know that you do not hate me. Indeed, I believe that you have grown in sincere affection and love toward me as I have for you. He who loves the student is not far from loving the Teacher.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-12-2001, 06:48 AM

...Spying, Everything that I believe about the JEWs cannot be transfered to (jesus). What he wrought is not a blessing to the JEWish people. It is interesting that a christian cannot see what a curse christianity has been to JEWs throughout the world. What other faith has hurt the JEWish people as much? JEWs don't just fade away. They get a lot of help from those they live among. I so dislike the faith of christians, who think of themselves as the {new jews} on the block, as though they would have shown themselves more righteous. Christians, and how they treat the name of YHWH was tested, and the christians failed the test. Christians have had every opportunity to stand by the JEWish people throughout history, and have failed to do so. Jesus is not coming back to get the christians. I wonder how many years that these christians will await their rapture before they realize that they have been left alone, estranged from the JEWish people for having led the assault against their name. When the world finally asks, "who have been the chief enemies of the JEWish people", won't the worlds people acknowledge that a people accused of killing the messiah, the son of GD, or GD manifested in the flesh will not be treated well by those who believe such things. The holocaust will be traced to the faith of christianity, in the end. Then christianity will fade away, having found themselves pricked in conscience and without a stone to stand upon. In the end, the tanakh will be viewed as a JEWish book, having been written by JEWs, for JEWs. Those who come through the doors into the house of Yahudah, will do so in respect for this people, and their ways. They will not move the furniture about as though it was their own house. They will leave the furniture alone until they become "real" friends, to this people.

....Michael

Spying

07-14-2001, 05:57 AM

Hi Thummim,

This is what my ADONAI had to say about judgment:
John 9:39
39 For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. (KJV)Prior to his suffering and death, Messiah also said this about judgment:
John 12:31-33
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. (KJV)When Messiah drew all men unto himself by his Cross, it was for judgment. This judgment is spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in this manner:
Isa 59:15-21
15 Yea, truth faileth (see also Daniel 8:11-12); and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and (the) YAHWEH saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies (both Jews and Gentiles); to the islands he will repay recompence. (The judgment is that all men did receive according to their deeds.)
19 So shall they fear the name of (the) YAHWEH from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood (the drawing of all men), the Spirit of (the) YAHWEH shall lift up a standard against him. (KJV)This lifted standard is the crucifixion of Messiah, all men crucified. This gathering is ADONAI'S sacrifice:
Ezek 39:17-21
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the ADONAI ELOHIM; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. ("For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.") 
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.(The once for all great sacrifice at the Cross)
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table (the Altar) with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the ADONAI ELOHIM.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen (the blind) shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. (KJV)Messiah brought about the death of all men through sacrifice. It was a day of vengeance, a day of great slaughter. The purpose of this great slaughter is for judgment. Those, like yourself, who can only see the physical (like the Jews surrounding the Cross), you must become blind in order to see the judgment of YAHWEH at the Cross. Those of us who are blind, Gentiles who have no sight, we gain our sight through the Cross. Both Jew and Gentile must be led to see themselves hanging from the Cross, executed sinners.

You are no friend of the Jew, Thummim, when you seek to absolve the Jew of any guilt concerning the death of Messiah. All men are guilty of the death of Messiah Yahushua through their sin. When you take away the Cross, you take away judgment. You take away the ability that YAH has given to me, and to you, and to the Jew to rightly judge ourselves, so that we can repent and do what is right in the sight of YAH.

Even so, I do agree with you that historically the Jew has been forced to bear the blame for Messiah's death alone. I also agree that false Christianity has perpetuated that impression through her false teaching concerning the death of Messiah. Now, what are we to do? The truth must be taught. All men are guilty of the death of Messiah Yahushua. Come and eat!

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

07-14-2001, 10:47 AM

Hi Thummim,

I must at this point make mention of this disclaimer: Not all things that I teach are believed by the Tzaddikim. There are many areas in which I do jump in with both feet totally immersed in water that the Tzaddikim would deem pure speculation. That's ok for now.

If the crucifixion of Messiah Yahushua is the great sacrifice, and if all men were gathered and slain with Messiah upon the Mountains of Israel, and if I teach that this sacrifice occurred both inside and outside the camp, then there exists an altar both inside and outside the camp. Do not mountains exist both inside and outside the camp? How can these mountains all be connected to form an Altar inside the camp?

If Messiah is gathering all men to himself, then a certain percentage of all those gathered are priests. Before the priests can go to work and offer up sacrifice, they must be consecrated according to the requirements of the Law. Before they are allowed to offer sacrifice (throw the sacrifices on the Altar for burning), the Altar must be built and also consecrated. Certain things are required. You can read of those thing in Leviticus.

Now, here is some pure speculation. Who are the Mountains of Israel? Humm? Do they comprise an Altar? Does that Altar have fire? If the Altar has fire, from whence did the Altar receive its fire? Let's this Sabbath Day consider mountains a little:
Ps 36:6
6 Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O YAHWEH, thou preservest man and beast. (KJV)

Ps 72:2-3
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. (KJV)It would seem that the righteousness and judgment of YAHWEH creates the height of the mountains. The mountains are elevated above the seas through the practice of righteousness and the establishment of judgment. Indeed, the holy mountains contain the very foundation of YAHWEH. This would agree with your thinking, Thummim, that the Altar inside the camp is somehow a stepping stone to YAHWEH:
Ps 87:1
1 His foundation is in the holy mountains. (KJV)There is a mountain that is higher than all other mountains, and I am not speaking of Everest:
[Micah 4:1
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of (the) YAHWEH shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. (KJV)Why? Because that is where the action is located. That is where righteousness is being performed and judgment has been established to bring about eternal life:
Ps 133:1-3
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there (the) YAHWEH commanded the blessing, even life for evermore. (KJV)Mountains are made of unhewn stone. The Altar is made of unhewn stone. Messiah first gathered twelve disciples to himself. Why?
IKing 18:31-32
31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of (the) YAHWEH came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of (the) YAHWEH: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed. (KJV)Why twelve? Because Messiah, like EliYah, was constructing an Altar. Where did Messiah get the stones:
Josh 4:8
8 And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as (the) YAHWEH spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there. (KJV)In a spiritual sense, Jews are continually crossing the Jordan, seeking to enter the promised land. This was not the case with Messiah. Messiah himself crossed the Jordan. While crossing, Messiah reached down an gathered twelve stones, his twelve disciples. It is from these twelve stones that Messiah constructed an Altar. This psalm describes the feeling of Messiah's disciples at that time:
Ps 114:1-4
1 When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;
2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.
3 The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back
4 The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs. (KJV)Why? Because their reproach (Gilgal) had been removed from them. They were cleansed through their service to Messiah Yahushua who in a very measured manner poured water upon them. Eventually, they were made to smoke as it is written
Ps 144:5
5 Bow thy heavens, O YAHWEH, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. (KJV)Why?
Ezek 6:2-7
2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,
3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the ADONAI ELOHIM; Thus saith the ADONAI ELOHIM to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.
4 And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols.
5 And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.
6 In all your dwellingplaces the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished.
7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am (the) YAHWEH. (KJV)I do surely know that ADONAI Messiah Yahushua is YAHWEH. Why? For it is surely written:
Micah 1:3-5
3 For, behold, (the) YAHWEH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? (KJV)So, we are talking volcano type action here, Thummim. If Messiah did offer a great sacrifice, and all men were drawn to that Altar, and if that Altar is now inside the camp, what has happened to the Altar? It has been desecrated, hasn't it? All manner of uncleanness has been brought to the Altar. An Abomination of Desolation has been committed. You know, the issue does now become: How will YAHWEH clean up this mess?
Isa 10:17
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; (KJV)

Ps 104:4
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: (KJV)

Ps 83:14-18
14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
15 So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
16 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O YAHWEH.
17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. (KJV)I know, this is all speculation, isn't it? It has probably already occurred in a spiritual sense. Now, we can argue about that, can't we? Even so, whatever happens in the spiritual, will happen in the physical because the physical is an image of the spiritual. There is reason to fear what is coming on the face of the earth.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-15-2001, 07:31 AM

...Spying, you need to read each of these written texts, within the context that they were written, and study each with a commentary in your hand, instead of trying to string together this assortment of verses, into a faith that they were never intended to support. With your way of interpreting the tanakh, you could open yourself a new church and start a whole new sect of christianity. Our discussion of the two uses of fire, in serving YHWH, should be tied to the truth. Where is the "altar" that is used outside of the camp? Isn't this just a clean place to work the mitzvot of cleansing, which is used outside of the camp, to keep it separated from the holy people's place of dwelling? You completely ignor the "separation" that must be maintained between these fires. YHWH is saying, "not in my house, take it outside!" You are like a student who cannot learn the truth, because he feels obligated to maintain a pre established set of beliefs. If the foundation is corrupt, what you place upon that foundation, will not survive the storms that are to come against it. The fire that cleanses, that is used outside of the camp, does not use an altar. While men build altars to there gods all over the place, the altar of YHWH is in its prescribed place.

....Michael

Spying

07-15-2001, 08:48 AM

Hi Thummim,

Thank you for your reply. I like your analogy of barking under a tree. You know who I am, don't you? I am exactly a dog barking under a tree, and who is it that I have treed on that tree? I have treed both Jew and Gentile. It matters not to me. I have followed the scent, and they both hang from my tree.

As a young lad, my Grandpa taught me how to squirrel hunt with a dog well trained. I would go to the woods with the dog. The dog would tree squirrels, barking like the dickens, but, at first, I couldn't see any squirrels in the tree to save my life. I would go back to my Grandpa empty handed and say:
Grandpa, Queeny is treeing squirrels, but the squirrels are long gone before I get there!This is how my Grandfather replied to me:
Manboy, I can tell by the excitement in Queeny's bark, that she is looking directly at a squirrel. What were you looking for in the tree, something as big as a cow? Circle the tree, the squirrel wants to see where you are at as bad as you want to see him. He will move. Look for his head on the side of the tree. I expect, when you learn how to spot that head, that you will be bringing back plenty of head shot squirrels.You know it happened exactly like my Grandpa said.

You say that I am a barking dog. I am. And I know who I have treed, and I know what I am looking at. You can tell me it is the wrong tree, but all who hear the excitement in my voice know that I can see what I have treed. We may circle around the tree a few times, Thummim, it matters not to me. You are treed!

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

07-15-2001, 09:44 AM

Hi Thummim,

Here are your words:
The fire that cleanses, that is used outside of the camp, does not use an altar. While men build altars to there gods all over the place, the altar of YHWH is in its prescribed place.If your words are true, then why did EliYah build an Altar outside the camp in order to cleanse Israel of the Prophets of Baal and Baal worship? EliYah's actions were contrary to the Law. Why did YAHWEH bless EliYah's Altar with divine fire? Was that fire holy fire, Thummim? Please explain to me the distinction between the Holy Fire from YAHWEH inside the camp and the Holy Fire from YAHWEH outside the camp? Does the One YAHWEH serve two Altars? If the Altar inside the camp cannot become the Altar outside the camp, then EliYah is very guilty of transgressing the Law. Messiah Yahushua is the EliYah outside the camp who came to destroy the credibility of false worship.

Humm? Do you think it is time to round up the Prophets of Baal?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-15-2001, 02:43 PM

...Spying, there is no altar for cleansing built by Elijah. What Elijah builds is a symbol of Israel --> {12 stones for 12 tribes = Israel} having a GD to call upon, whereas the children of Baal have no GD to call upon. He demonstrates this with his actions. What Elijah does is not Levitical. It doesn't involve the Levitical priesthood. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Who is cleansed? So you don't become confused about the altar of YHWH, read below.

Joshua Chapter 22

11 And the children of Israel heard say, Behold, the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the half tribe of Manasseh have built an altar over against the land of Canaan, in the borders of Jordan, at the passage of the children of Israel.

12 And when the children of Israel heard of it, the whole congregation of the children of Israel gathered themselves together at Shiloh, to go up to war against them.

13 And the children of Israel sent unto the children of Reuben, and to the children of Gad, and to the half tribe of Manasseh, into the land of Gilead, Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest,

14 And with him ten princes, of each chief house a prince throughout all the tribes of Israel; and each one was an head of the house of their fathers among the thousands of Israel.

15 And they came unto the children of Reuben, and to the children of Gad, and to the half tribe of Manasseh, unto the land of Gilead, and they spake with them, saying,

16 Thus saith the whole congregation of the LORD, What trespass is this that ye have committed against the God of Israel, to turn away this day from following the LORD, in that ye have builded you an altar, that ye might rebel this day against the LORD?

17 Is the iniquity of Peor too little for us, from which we are not cleansed until this day, although there was a plague in the congregation of the LORD,

18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.

19 Notwithstanding, if the land of your possession beunclean, then pass ye over unto the land of the possession of the LORD, wherein the LORD'S tabernacle dwelleth, and take possession among us: but rebel not against the LORD, nor rebel against us, in building you an altar beside the altar of the LORD our God.

20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.

21 Then the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the half tribe of Manasseh answered, and said unto the heads of the thousands of Israel,

22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)

23 That we have built us an altar to turn from following the LORD, or if to offer thereon burnt offering or meat offering, or if to offer peace offerings thereon, let the LORD himself require it;

24 And if we have not rather done it for fear of this thing, saying, In time to come your children might speak unto our children, saying, What have ye to do with the LORD God of Israel?

25 For the LORD hath made Jordan a border between us and you, ye children of Reuben and children of Gad; ye have no part in the LORD: so shall your children make our children cease from fearing the LORD.

26 Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice:

27 But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD.

28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you.

29 God forbid that we should rebel against the LORD, and turn this day from following the LORD, to build an altar for burnt offerings, for meat offerings, or for sacrifices, beside the altar of the LORD our God that is before his tabernacle.

30 And when Phinehas the priest, and the princes of the congregation and heads of the thousands of Israel which were with him, heard the words that the children of Reuben and the children of Gad and the children of Manasseh spake, it pleased them.

31 And Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest said unto the children of Reuben, and to the children of Gad, and to the children of Manasseh, This day we perceive that the LORD is among us, because ye have not committed this trespass against the LORD: now ye have delivered the children of Israel out of the hand of the LORD.

32 And Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, and the princes, returned from the children of Reuben, and from the children of Gad, out of the land of Gilead, unto the land of Canaan, to the children of Israel, and brought them word again.

33 And the thing pleased the children of Israel; and the children of Israel blessed God, and did not intend to go up against them in battle, to destroy the land wherein the children of Reuben and Gad dwelt.

34 And the children of Reuben and the children of Gad called the altar Ed: for it shall be a witness between us that the LORD is God.

...As you can see, you haven't tree'd me at all. You really need to rethink your faith and stop mixing your fires. If you refuse to learn, then why should I try to teach you. Believe as you will.

....Michael

Spying

07-16-2001, 11:53 AM

Hi Thummim,

Joshua 22 points out the seriousness of EliYah's sin in constructing a private altar apart from the Temple or outside the camp. You are absolutely correct. There is no way to prove that EliYah was a priest; therefore, what EliYah did with his altar should not be construed as levitical. EliYah sinned in many ways. He built a private altar apart from the the Altar of Burnt Offering inside the camp (I do recognize that EliYah's altar was a fallen down Altar of YAHWEH). He put wood on his altar, a levitical task. He arranged the bullock on the wood, also a levitical task. EliYah washed the cut up bullock with water. That infringed upon the duties of a priest. Did EliYah kill the bullock at the Door of the Temple as required? Did a priest sprinkle the blood of the bullock upon the Altar of Burnt Offering as required? So, EliYah was guilty of a number of transgressions with respect to this offering.

Now, EliYah did not mix fire as you are accusing me of mixing fire. The fire came from YAHWEH. I think that you would agree that any fire that comes from YAHWEH is holy fire.

I have taught you that Messiah Yahushua did offer a great sacrifice outside the camp through his suffering and death. I likened his suffering and death on the Cross to the burning of various animals outside the camp. You rejected my teaching by basically saying that such an offering would be unholy because its fire was less holy than the fire on the Altar of Burnt Offering. I countered your rejection by asking you to consider the possibility that perhaps Messiah's offering was along the same lines as EliYah's offering. If YAHWEH provides the fire as HE did with EliYah, then everything becomes holy, the altar and the offerings.

I do agree with you that the twelve stones of EliYah's altar represents the twelve tribes of Israel. So, we are in basic agreement that Israel herself in unity is the stepping stone to YAHWEH. Israel herself is the platform whereby the offerings are transformed and ascend to YAHWEH.

I have taught you that Messiah Yahushua in his death is the death of all mankind. If Messiah himself is representative of all of mankind, then the whole world becomes a great sacrifice upon a private altar absolutely devoted to YAHWEH for transformation by fire. From my perspective, it should be a matter of self perservation for the world to ascertain and understand whether or not Messiah was also able to complete the requirements to make his outer Altar the Altar of Burnt Offering inside the camp. Without that completion, this world is in a world of hurt.

Thummim, this has nothing to do about the way that Jesus Christ is preached and taught by the Christianity of this world. Traditional Christianity does not give any concern to what the Law requires concerning sacrifice. The Tzaddikim do, and I can see that you do also. We are talking about a very serious and holy business here as I think that you do recognize. What we are discussing has enormous implications concerning the future of this world if Messiah is EliYah, if Messiah in offering himself did offer a bullock outside the camp, and if YAHWEH did provide the fire.

How is fire kindled, and what makes fire holy?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-16-2001, 03:10 PM

...Spying, combining the fire that burns outside of the camp (used for cleansing) with the fire of YHWH's altar, would violate the mitzvah to keep it separate {outside the camp}. Elijah's fire is not a cleansing fire. YHWH, as a fire to see Yah by, demonstrates that he is Eloheem and not Baal. This had to be in YHWH's purpose as much as Eliyah's. The problem is that you want to find a cleansing fire that burns outside of the camp and connect it to (jesus) to make of him an ashem. YHWH is free to take him up in the flames of his presence. This was not his exit though. There is no way to combine the cleansing fire with the fire of YHWH's altar. YHWH's presence as fire {Elijah's fire}, I would assume, is like the fire of the altar. The priest is concerned with keeping the divisions that he maintains through his Levitical duties, from desolving. He basically has to keep the clean separated from the unclean because YHWH's people dwell with him, and are a holy people.

...And YHWH hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments. And to make thee high above all nations which he has made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto YHWH thy Eloheem, as he hath spoken. Deut. 26: 18,19

...This idea is what the priests serve. How can a people live in YHWH's presence? The priests must maintain the holiness of the people, so they establish borders between the holy and the profane. The fire outside of the camp is a means for doing this. Mixing these two fires would be like wraping YHWH in filthy rags. This fire does not represent YHWH as the fire of YHWH's altar does. It exists for its purpose, to maintain the holiness of YHWH's people.

....Michael

Spying

07-17-2001, 05:20 AM

Hi Thummim,

Bear with me and allow me to make you familiar with certain impressions that I have of Messiah and his work. On the night that Messiah was betrayed by Judas, Messiah indicated to his disciples that they were all clean (John 13:10) save for Judas. Later that evening, Messiah made this statement concerning his disciples to his Father in prayer:
John 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (KJV)Messiah through his ministry made the spiritual Sacred Name of YAHWEH evident to his disciples. Messiah didn't spend 3 1/2 years going around either speaking or writing down the physical Sacred Name for his disciples to hear and see. What they were blessed to see and hear through the activity of Messiah Yahushua was YAHWEH in action. The very works that Messiah accomplished displays YAHWEH. I submit to you, Thummim, that all those who keep the word of YAHWEH are clean before YAHWEH. So, I don't so much view Messiah's sacrifice of himself as a matter of cleansing for his immediate disciples. Cleansing is definitely involved for us, and it may be exactly as you say, but it does not appear to be working that way here. There is alot to consider, and I am not ruling anything out at this point.

I believe that Messiah chose his twelve disciples as representatives of Israel. He knew that they in a spiritual sense would eventually serve as the Altar of Burnt Offering. So, Messiah was obligated throughout his ministry to built and establish the spiritual Altar. Messiah cleansed the Altar through preaching the word (water) of YAHWEH to his disciples, and Messiah cleansed the Altar by helping his disciples to walk in that word. This is symbolized by washing his disciples feet. His disciples were doers of the word. They were not just hearers. Even so, Messiah had a big problem, didn't he? Ha, ha, I suspect that you will agree with that assessment, won't you? Not all of the twelve disciples are clean, are they? So, how is Messiah to go about putting an unclean Altar to use? Will YAHWEH accept an unclean Altar? Not in anyone's lifetime!! So, Messiah's actions do not fit readily fit into your ideas of cleansing, at least not in this context. Messiah knew that the only way to be clean before YAHWEH is to do what YAHWEH says. So, how did Messiah cleanse his Altar? A sacrifice is not offered for Judas. Messiah cleansed his Altar by removing Judas from the Altar. He removed an unclean stone from the Altar, and Messiah inserted himself into that Altar because Messiah's Altar must have twelve stones, must it not? This is especially true when we recognize that Messiah was following EliYah's pattern verbatim.

Now, the Altar is clean, but is it ready for a holy purpose? Not really! According to the Law, once the Altar is built and established, then the Altar must be consecrated. It must be sanctified, set apart for a holy purpose. As it is written:
Exod 29:37
37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy. (KJV)If we should read about consecrating the Altar, we discover that all kinds of things must occur (Leviticus 8). First of all, we need someone of the stature of Moses to officiate at the consecration, do we not? (I wonder who that "like unto Moses" person is?) There are a number of sacrifices that must take place. The Altar must be sprinkled with the anointing oil. The altar must be sprinkled with blood. Blood must be poured out at the base of the Altar. All these things must occur before the Altar is consecrated.

Listen to what Messiah requests concerning the Altar:
John 17:14-19
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (There is already a separation here, isn't there?)
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (The Altar is clean; the world is unclean.)
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. (Consecrate them according to your word.)
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (KJV)It is the stated goal of Messiah in this, his prayer, that the Altar be sanctified according to the truth of YAHWEH. And what is it that is the truth of YAHWEH? Well, the Word of YAHWEH is the truth of YAHWEH. This includes the LAW of YAHWEH. As it is written,
Ps 119:142
142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. (KJV)Or a little later the Psalmist says,
Ps 119:151
151 Thou art near, O YAHWEH; and all thy commandments are truth. (KJV)So, here we have Messiah Yahushua telling us all in no uncertain terms that he is being set apart for a holy purpose in order that the Altar might be set apart for a holy purpose. And he is telling us in no uncertain terms that it is all going to happen in the manner required by the Law. How about that? You have never looked at Messiah in these terms, have you? Well, I am waiting for you to move. You see, I haven't giving up on you in the way Old Shepherd has. Messiah has need of you. I think I read something about Thummim in Leviticus 8, didn't I?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

07-17-2001, 08:34 AM

...Spying, to begin at the end, I believe that the {thummim} is a symbol of completeing the sacred name to bring knowledge of YHWH to the priest. Knowledge goes with passing judgement. I surmise that urim has twelve names upon it. I know that the presence of {hashem} accompanies the use of the Urim and the Thummim. Now to take up our subject of cleansing, was Elijah or his altar cleansed? I find no cleansing of this altar. Was Elijah serving YHWH's will or was he serving his own desires. Is YHWH there because Elijah invokes him? Or is Elijah there because it is YHWH's will? These are interesting questions to me. I suspect that the answer is a little of both. Elijah plainly invokes him with his prayer, though at the same time he is serving his will. There is no cleansing here, yet YHWH excepts the offering to show the priests of Baal that he is GD. The question I have is "must YHWH be invoked?" How does his presence come? I believe that YHWH attends his name and that if lost, the power of the holy people will be lost with it. This I believe happened. I don't believe that (jesus) ever revealed the sacred name to his diciples or to anyone else. If he had, you would have read it from your NT. What's interesting to me, is how something so simple can escape attention. Now one of the bigest problems with (jesus) as an atonement, is that atonements do not bring vindication from sin. I've shown you examples of this. Some things cannot be atoned for. Another problem that I have is with spilling innocent blood in YHWH's name. This is not allowed. It's a mitzvah not to spill innocent blood. Innocent blood defiles the land, requiring the spilling of the blood, of the offender. Who is the offender that YHWH charges in this deed? At no time was a human sacrifice attached to YHWH's altar. I think that an atonement can be made without the altar of YHWH. When the guilty party is killed, isn't that an atonement? Did Phinehas make atonement for Israel in Nu. 25:7 --> 25:11, when he thrust through the two offenders to stop the plague? Perhaps you shouldn't be trying to fit (jesus) into the Levitical code. He shows little honour to the keepers of it. An altar is not made of wood. All cleansing sacrifices are ashems. Are you trying to burn your cross? The more that you rationalize (jesus) to fit into the Levitical code, the more extreem your arguments become. (jesus) is created to fit the thinking of christianity. You would do better to leave him a christian, rather than trying to fit him to the work of Aaron's family. Are you trying to make the diciples of (jesus), his altar of sacrifice? Your faith seems to move with the wind. This kind of thinking will let you down, "if there are twelve stones in the altar of Elijah, and there are twelve diciples of (jesus), then the diciples of (jesus) must be stones in an altar" They could as easily be twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, or twelve spoons of gold. (Nu.7:84) Rationalization is not learning. I think that studying (jesus), and studying the Levitical code, need to be done in the exclusion of each other, at first. Afterwards we can see if one fits the other.

....Michael

Spying

07-18-2001, 06:13 AM

Hi Thummim,

I don't know anything about the Thummim just like I really don't know anything about you. Whatever it is, and I am sure you will help me to see it as it is because the Thummim is not what it appears to be. It is a symbol as you say. That exposes a major problem with gathering information, and you have made mention of this problem by commenting on my method of interpretation. Knowledge of YAHWEH requires that the knower begin to think in symbols because the knower, little old me, I am physical, and YAHWEH, who desire that I know HIM, is spiritual. One cannot begin to know the spiritual except through symbols (The Kingdom of YAH is like unto, etc). Paul says that the physical is opposed to the spiritual and that physical man cannot comprehend the things of the spirit because of his mindset which only sees one direction.

This is a huge, gigantic problem when you begin to approach Messiah Yahushua. Paul says not to approach Messiah from a human or physical perspective. If you do, you fall into a fly trap. You get stuck. Why? A man is only an image of YAH. Granted, that in itself is important, but don't look at the man and think that you are looking at YAH. Man is a symbol of YAH. So, whenever Messiah says things like
John 14:7-9
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Yahushua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (KJV)Messiah is not asking anyone to take a good look at himself according to the physical. He is not asking us to look at him with our physical eyes, nor is he asking us to put our 3-D glasses on; rather, Messiah is telling us that the Father is an activity, that the Father is a pattern of behavior, that this pattern of behavior is true, and that this behavior is our life. So, our physical fathers are also symbols, and when you really think about it, you begin to understand that Messiah's physical experience on this earth is in itself symbolic of a spiritual reality. So, the Cross is symbolic of something. It is symbolic of a process.

Now, why do you think that Messiah taught his disciples in parables? He did so to train them to think in symbols. Messiah spent 3 1/2 years giving his disciples that type of training. Thummim, whenever I look at something, I work to look at it, whatever it is, symbolically. So, we can be looking at the same thing, like EliYah's Altar, and you will see one thing, and I will see another. When you look at his Altar, you see no cleansing taking place. When I look at his Altar, I see all kinds of cleansing taking place. Let me ask you: How do you cleanse your hands? Do you not go over to the sink and turn the water on and wash them with water? How do you cleanse your body? Do you not wash it with water? EliYah drowns his Altar with water? How do you know that his action is not a cleansing?

Thummim, the Altar of EliYah is symbolic of something. EliYah himself is symbolic of something. The bullock is symbolic of something. The water is symbolic of something. The fire is symbolic of something. All the activity that surrounds that Altar is symbolic of something. Now, how do we determine what the symbols in that story represent? Think about this: That is why we have need of a Messiah, don't we?

Sincerely, Spying