When does a DAY begin?

[Sandy]

I am posting a questioning response to the following:


Originally posted by Spying
Hi Bratu,
...Light did shine in darkness. ELOHIM reckons that event as something <B>good</b>. This is a judgment call. The ELOHIM determined that they liked light. By calling the light good, darkness is by that designation most certainly deemed to be bad. Then we see that the ELOHIM divided the light from the darkness? Did all the ELOHIM like this division? Is this a permanent arrangement? Look at what YAHWEH has to say about HIS covenant with the day and night:

Jer 33:20
20 Thus saith the YAHWEH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;(KJV)

The point is this: The arrangement of dividing light and darkness cannot be broken. The day always begin with night, but then the light always arises and triumphs over darkness. Does this picture or arrangement make sense to you, Bratu?

Sincerely, Spying



When does a DAY begin?

The majority believe that a DAY begins at evening, even though they cannot agree as to exactly when this takes place.

I no longer believe the Biblical day begins at evening as the majority claim, but that it begins with first light.

Hopefully the following will explain why I believe this way.

http://www.shaniyahsplace.homestead.com/dayandnight.html

[Bratu McCaskey]

Hi Sandy
A very valid point indeed. I didn't stop to think when it is considered that a day starts. I was thinking in the traditional Midnight is the start of the new day. Hence my statement in the other Topic. But your reasoning is sound i still follow the other that midnight is the start of the next day but yours makes sense as well.

Bratu

[Sandy]

Thank you Bratu for considering it a possiblility.

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Thank you for that analysis. I like it. Do you know if ShaniYah is saying that the order of the the 24 hour Day does begin with evening, then night, then morning, then day? Or is the analysis saying that the first day begins with sunrise, then day, then evening, then night? The first day of the recreation of the Earth I believe did begin with evening, a combination of light and darkness in which neither rules over the other. Then night comes in which darkness rules (until the advent of the moon) followed by the day in which light rules (ultimately the rulership of the sun). The evening time relates to or expresses for me the kind of philosophy that Bratu is espousing in that light and darkness coexist together with neither one triumphing over the other.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

Thank you for that analysis. I like it. Do you know if ShaniYah is saying that the order of the the 24 hour Day does begin with evening, then night, then morning, then day? Or is the analysis saying that the first day begins with sunrise, then day, then evening, then night? The first day of the recreation of the Earth I believe did begin with evening, a combination of light and darkness in which neither rules over the other. Then night comes in which darkness rules (until the advent of the moon) followed by the day in which light rules (ultimately the rulership of the sun). The evening time relates to or expresses for me the kind of philosophy that Bratu is espousing in that light and darkness coexist together with neither one triumphing over the other.

Sincerely, Spying

Hi Spying
Shaniyah is saying that on the first day the first thing brought into being was LIGHT and the LIGHT was called DAY. Therefore the LIGHT is the beginning of everything as well as the DAY.

A (24 hr) DAY begins at first LIGHT not at the end of the light (evening).

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Do you observe the Sabbath Day? How do you reckon the exact time that the Sabbath Day begins?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Good morning Spying
Yes, I observe the Seventh Day Sabbath. For me it begins at first light.

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Here I am sitting at my computer in my home, the last house on the right along Weis Avenue in old town Ellisville, waiting for first light so that I can thank YAH for this fine Sabbath dawning. I didn't have the heart to tell my family last evening that our Friday night meal together would no longer be a Sabbath get together. The Sabbath cannot begin with night so we must wait for morning. Is that where you would leave me, Torah?

Actually, I have taken this about as far as I can take it unless you give me some more information. I went to your link, and read it. I like the analysis. I talked to Hyssop about it on the phone, and I told him that you were right, that a day does begin with the light of the evening. He told me that you were not saying that. He told me that you were saying that each day begins with the first light of the morning. Is that true? Anyway, is it not funny how two people can read the same thing and get the opposite impression about the same subject? Why don't you enlighten Hyssop and me, Sandy?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

Here I am sitting at my computer in my home, the last house on the right along Weis Avenue in old town Ellisville, waiting for first light so that I can thank YAH for this fine Sabbath dawning. I didn't have the heart to tell my family last evening that our Friday night meal together would no longer be a Sabbath get together. The Sabbath cannot begin with night so we must wait for morning. Is that where you would leave me, Torah?
<font color=green>
Spying, how can your Friday night meal be a Sabbath get together? Friday <b>night</b> is exactly what you said, Friday night (night=dark) the end of the sixth day.

What is wrong with having a wonderful Sabbath day meal together during the day-light hours of the actual Sabbath? Why does is have to be the evening before? Don't you eat breakfast, dinner and supper on the seventh day too?

What do you do in the summer months when it does not become evening until very late? Do you wait to have your Friday night meal together until that late hour?</font>

Actually, I have taken this about as far as I can take it unless you give me some more information. I went to your link, and read it. I like the analysis. I talked to Hyssop about it on the phone, and I told him that you were right, that a day does begin with the light of the evening.
<font color=green>
Spying, evening is the end of the light, not the beginning.</font>

He told me that you were not saying that. He told me that you were saying that each day begins with the first light of the morning. Is that true? Anyway, is it not funny how two people can read the same thing and get the opposite impression about the same subject? Why don't you enlighten Hyssop and me, Sandy?

Sincerely, Spying [/B]
<font color=green>
What does the scripture say?
Genesis 1
2) and the earth was (or became) desolate and empty and it was dark over the desolate surface, and the Spirit of Elohym moved gently over the surface of the waters
3) and Elohym said, Let there be LIGHT and there was LIGHT.
4) and Elohym saw the LIGHT that it was good, and Elohym separated between the LIGHT and between the DARK
5) and Elohym called the LIGHT, DAY and He called the DARK, NIGHT; and there was evening and there was morning DAY one,

What is the first thing brought into being on day one?
LIGHT
What is the LIGHT called?
DAY
What does Elohym call the DARK?
NIGHT
Between what does Elohym say he separates?
Between the LIGHT and between the DARK
He places the order as LIGHT and then DARK

The darkness was the END of the desolation and emptiness that was (or had come) upon the earth.

The LIGHT is the beginning of the first DAY.

Genesis 1 (The order is DAY and NIGHT, LIGHT and DARK)
14) ... to divide between the DAY and the NIGHT...
16) ... the greater luminary to rule the DAY and the lesser luminary to rule the NIGHT...
18) and to rule over the DAY and over the NIGHT; and to divide between the LIGHT and the DARK...

[simpleman]

Sandy,

Hi. I have never spoken to you that I know of so I would first like to just say hello.

Now, I am curious about your thinking. I can not say if you are right or wrong, but humility requires all of us to examine our thoughts with the idea that we may be wrong.

How do you explain the fact that the Jewish people, who by the way have kept the Sabbath for a long time, do not see things as you do? I know that Judaism is wrong about many things, but it seems pretty standard that they could have kept straight when a day starts.

Shalom,
Simpleman

[Sandy]

Originally posted by simpleman
Sandy,

Hi. I have never spoken to you that I know of so I would first like to just say hello.

Now, I am curious about your thinking. I can not say if you are right or wrong, but humility requires all of us to examine our thoughts with the idea that we may be wrong.

How do you explain the fact that the Jewish people, who by the way have kept the Sabbath for a long time, do not see things as you do? I know that Judaism is wrong about many things, but it seems pretty standard that they could have kept straight when a day starts.

Shalom,
Simpleman
<font color=navy> Hi Simpleman
Thank you for your response.

It is true that the Jews/Judaism teaches us a day begins at evening, but yet they themselves cannot agree as to when that actually takes place.

If as you say, Judaism is wrong about many things, then it is possible they are wrong about when the day begins?

As to humility, I am not attempting to force anyone to believe anything. I am only expressing what I believe may be true.</font>

[Yahnathan]

Sandy it appears we disagree alot. I would compose a lenthy post proving that the sabbath indeed begins at sunset but it is not ness for someone at Paleo-Times web site has taken the liberty for us. Any one can assess this website through our web site the address is

http://www.webspawner.com/users/childofyahweh

Choose the link "When does the scriptural day begin"

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Yahnathan
Sandy it appears we disagree alot. I would compose a lenthy post proving that the sabbath indeed begins at sunset but it is not ness for someone at Paleo-Times web site has taken the liberty for us. Any one can assess this website through our web site the address is

http://www.webspawner.com/users/childofyahweh

Choose the link "When does the scriptural day begin"

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,


<font color=green>Thank you Yahnathan, I will check it out.

[Sandy]

Hi Yahnathan
I visited the link and read the information concerning when a day begins.

I have chosen a couple examples from the link which I would like to examine.

Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, and 31, where we read, "the evening and the morning" were the first day, the second day, etc.

This particular phraseology is used of the first six days of creation. As Yahweh created the physical world, He was also creating time and its proper determination.

Each period of 24-hours had an evening and morning. The hours of darkness, called evening, came first; the hours of daylight, called morning, came second.
I disagree.
Evening is not the time of darkness. It is the period of time also known as twilight or dusk, which is the faint light between sun set and darkness.
The hours of daylight are not called morning. Morning also is a period of twilight or dusk, which is the faint light before the sun rises.
Genesis 1:5
And Elohym called the LIGHT "DAY" and He called the DARK "NIGHT"; and there was evening and there was morning DAY one
Elohym did not call the LIGHT "morning", he called the LIGHT "day".
Elohym did not call the DARK "evening", he called the DARK "night".

If the new day does not begin in the morning, how do you explain what is being said here?
Leviticus7:15
As to the flesh of the sacrifice of the thanksgiving peace offerings, it shall be eaten in the day of its offering. He shall not leave of it until morning.

[Yahnathan]

Sandy, Your only real argument here is the possibility that perhaps the hebrew word ereb strongs # 6153 can mean either the period after sunset and darkness and the period after sunrise and complete light. Is this your stance ? Are you saying one must use the context to derermine wheather we are talking about the time of either sunset or morning ? Because it is quite clear that the hebrew ereb is ofter used to describe the period near sunset. for example.

Gen 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Clearly in this verse Noah realeased this dove in the daylight hours would you agree ? Then clearly the dove returned to him before it was completly dark. I challenge you to prove that the hebrew word ereb can be used to mean the morning hours as I have just proved that ereb means without dought the time near darkness. Good Luck !

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,

[Yahnathan]

Sandy I am also interstead how you would explain the evening and the morning sacrifice ?

Yahnathan

[Yahnathan]

Sandy in responce to your question concerning Lev 7:15 lets take a very close look at verses 15 and 16.

15 And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning.

16 But if the sacrifice of his offering be a vow, or a voluntary offering, it shall be eaten the same day that he offereth his sacrifice: and on the morrow also the remainder of it shall be eaten:

In verse 15 the word translated Morning is the hebrew boker strongs # 1242 and means dawn not ness in the since of a rising of the sun(Although it can mean that). It can also mean Morrow and as Yahweh's Paleo times web site proves a new day dawns at sunset not sunrise. Here you see the ignorance of english translators and one of there many errors.It is true without a dought that all sacrifices took place during daylight hours. Therefore clearly this verse is saying that some sacrifices were eaten the next day after sunset, however, in the case of a peace offering it is to be eaten the same day before sunset.

To give us further clarifacation on this, the word translated Morrow in verse 16 is the hebrew mochorath strongs # 4283 and means morrow, tomorrow, next day(Days begin at sunset). It is clear in contex that the words translated "morning" in verse 15 and the word translated "morrow" are impling the same meaning here which you must admit is true because your argument is based on that premise. The problem is you are using faulty circular reasoning and a poor translation to come to your conclusion. It is important that we use all of scripture to come to our conclusions. Scripture never contradicts itself. Please review all the scriptures at the
Yahweh's Paleo-times website which proves without dought that a 24 hour day begins a sunset, then you will see this scripture in the light of truth.

With Love in the Service of the Salavtion of YAH,

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Yahnathan
Sandy, Your only real argument here is the possibility that perhaps the hebrew word ereb strongs # 6153 can mean either the period after sunset and darkness and the period after sunrise and complete light. Is this your stance ? Are you saying one must use the context to derermine wheather we are talking about the time of either sunset or morning ? Because it is quite clear that the hebrew ereb is ofter used to describe the period near sunset. for example.

Gen 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

Clearly in this verse Noah realeased this dove in the daylight hours would you agree ? Then clearly the dove returned to him before it was completly dark. I challenge you to prove that the hebrew word ereb can be used to mean the morning hours as I have just proved that ereb means without dought the time near darkness. Good Luck !

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,

<font color=green>Hi Yahnathan
I believe evening is the twilight time from sunset till dark. What have I written to indicate otherwise?

Please explain the timing in this verse:
Leviticus 7:15
As to the flesh of the sacrifice of the thanksgiving peace offerings, it shall be eaten in the day of its offering. He shall not leave of it until morning.</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

I have been thinking about this a little, and if you would be so kind, I would appreciate it if you would inform us how you basically observe the Day of Atonement. The command is this:
Lev 23:27-28
27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the YAHWEH.
28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the YAHWEH your ELOHIM. (KJV)In another place, it is stated in this manner:
Lev 16:29-31
29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the YAHWEH.
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. (KJV)Now, the Tzaddikim accept the Jewish teaching that humbling oneself means to fast. Some of us are a little more strict than the others. Some of us fast for a little over 24 hours in accordance with this commandment:
Lev 23:29-32
29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the <B>ninth day</b> of the month at even, from <B>even</b> unto <B>even</b>, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. (KJV)What we would like to know, Sandy, is the exact time period in which you do fast or otherwise afflict your soul? When you do begin, and when you do end?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

I have been thinking about this a little, and if you would be so kind, I would appreciate it if you would inform us how you basically observe the Day of Atonement. The command is this:
Lev 23:27-28
27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the YAHWEH.
28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the YAHWEH your ELOHIM. (KJV)In another place, it is stated in this manner:
Lev 16:29-31
29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the YAHWEH.
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. (KJV)Now, the Tzaddikim accept the Jewish teaching that humbling oneself means to fast. Some of us are a little more strict than the others. Some of us fast for a little over 24 hours in accordance with this commandment:
Lev 23:29-32
29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the <B>ninth day</b> of the month at even, from <B>even</b> unto <B>even</b>, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. (KJV)What we would like to know, Sandy, is the exact time period in which you do fast or otherwise afflict your soul? When you do begin, and when you do end?

Sincerely, Spying

<font color=green>Hello Spying
You have two accounts concerning the Day of Atonement.

The first (Leviticus 16:29-31): ...in the seventh month in the tenth of the month...

The second (Leviticus 23:26-32): in the tenth of the seventh month...(verse 27)...in the ninth of the month in evening, from evening to evening...(verse 32).

Considering this second account I see the need to begin on the evening of the ninth and continue until the evening of the tenth.

According to Leviticus 23:26-32 I see each of these as requirements to fulfill the Day of Atonement:
Day of Atonement takes place on the tenth of the seventh month
You shall have a holy gathering
You shall afflict/humble yourself
You shall bring a fire offering to YHUH
You shall do no work
In the ninth of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep Sabbath
There is a problem though. According to:
Leviticus 16:32-34 (see also Exodus 30:10)
And the priest whom he shall anoint and whose hand he shall consecrate to act as priest instead of his father, shall make atonement, and shall put on the linen garments, the holy garments.
33) And he shall atone for the holy sanctuary and the tent of the assembly, and he shall atone for the altar and for the priests, and he shall atone for all the people of the assembly.
34) And this shall be a never-ending statute, to atone for the sons of Israel, because of all their sins, once a year...
Now the problem is this:
[list] No Tent of Assembly or Temple
No priests to wear the holy garments
No altar
No unified assembly
</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, you do see a need, don't you? What I would like to now know, Sandy, is exactly how you have addressed this need in your past practice. Last Yom Kippur, did you fast from the evening of the ninth day to the evening of the tenth day? The manner in which you replied to me, I will venture to say, indicates that you did not! According to what you believe, I will furthermore venture to say that you yourself fasted from the morning of the 10 day to the morning of the 11th day, did you not? After all, that is how you imagine that each day progresses.

Now, do you also see the problem with that? You have fasted during the wrong time period. Is that not a cutting off offense?

So, if you change your current practice of fasting from morning to morning, to fasting from evening to evening as the Hebrew Scriptures require, do you see the new problem that you then will have? You will be fasting on two different days, and that is ok. I do the same. However, the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that only the tenth day of the seventh month is the Day of Atonement. The ninth day of the seventh month is not the Day of Atonement. You are also required to afflict your soul for the full Day of Atonement. So, the way I see it, in order for you not to be cut off, you must be willing to fast for at least 36 hours. :) I will be more than happy to check your progress next Yom Kippur.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, you do see a need, don't you? What I would like to now know, Sandy, is exactly how you have addressed this need in your past practice. Last Yom Kippur, did you fast from the evening of the ninth day to the evening of the tenth day? The manner in which you replied to me, I will venture to say, indicates that you did not! According to what you believe, I will furthermore venture to say that you yourself fasted from the morning of the 10 day to the morning of the 11th day, did you not? After all, that is how you imagine that each day progresses.

Now, do you also see the problem with that? You have fasted during the wrong time period. Is that not a cutting off offense?

So, if you change your current practice of fasting from morning to morning, to fasting from evening to evening as the Hebrew Scriptures require, do you see the new problem that you then will have? You will be fasting on two different days, and that is ok. I do the same. However, the Hebrew Scriptures indicate that only the tenth day of the seventh month is the Day of Atonement. The ninth day of the seventh month is not the Day of Atonement. You are also required to afflict your soul for the full Day of Atonement. So, the way I see it, in order for you not to be cut off, you must be willing to fast for at least 36 hours. :) I will be more than happy to check your progress next Yom Kippur.

Sincerely, Spying
<font color=green>Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement is on the the tenth DAY (DAY = LIGHT). It specifically states in the second account (Leviticus 23:26-32) from the evening of the ninth day until the following evening you are to observe your Sabbath. That is very clear as to when and how long.

DAY = LIGHT (Genesis 1:5). DAY does not always mean a 24 hour period. So for me, when it says from the evening of the ninth day until the following evening you are to observe your Sabbath I have no problem understanding it.
</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

I did not ask for your understanding; I asked for an account of your practice. That was the second time that I have asked, and you are reluctant to tell me. Why? Could it be that you did not fast at all last Yom Kippur? Tell me, did you fast during the day or light portion of the 10th day of the seventh month?

Sandy, alot of times what we say does not matter as much as what we do. If you have fasted in the past, and you have intention of fasting in the future, then you would be a little more forthcoming in telling me what you do practice. This is the impression that I am starting to receive of you. You appear to me to be as one who is perfectly willing to argue both sides of an issue because you don't have any conviction based upon real practice. You have thought through your arguments intellectually, but I am not certain that you have gotten down into the trenches and attempted to apply on a practical basis what you have come to profess as your understanding. If I am wrong, correct me.

We absolutely know that a "day" can either be a 12 hour period of daylight or a 24 hour period of both night and day. We have no reason to conclude that the seventh day of the week consists of only 12 hours of daylight. Therefore, every Sabbath Day has a night and day portion just like the pattern of every other day of the week. Every annual Sabbath likewise has a night and day portion. I am curious, Sandy. Do you observe the weekly Sabbath Day? I understand that the Sabbath Day would begin for you Saturday morning at sunrise. Do you cease from your regular work on the daylight portion of the Sabbath? How about the night portion of your Sabbath Day? Do you, on the night portion, the period of time from sunset Saturday to sunrise Sunday morning, refrain from doing your work?

In the same manner, every annual Sabbath Day like Yom Kippur has a night and day portion. If the weekly Sabbath and the annual Sabbaths do not have night portions, then it is clearly your responsibility to explain to us which day of the week or which day of the month is to receive a double night portion. You cannot have it both ways, Sandy. You are going to have to get down in the trenches and explain what you do practice. When you explain your practice, then we will be able to see what you really believe.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

I did not ask for your understanding; I asked for an account of your practice. That was the second time that I have asked, and you are reluctant to tell me. Why? Could it be that you did not fast at all last Yom Kippur? Tell me, did you fast during the day or light portion of the 10th day of the seventh month?

<font color=green>I told you twice now-from the evening of the ninth day until the evening of the tenth, because that is what is indicated in the Scriptures.</font>

Sandy, alot of times what we say does not matter as much as what we do. If you have fasted in the past, and you have intention of fasting in the future, then you would be a little more forthcoming in telling me what you do practice. This is the impression that I am starting to receive of you. You appear to me to be as one who is perfectly willing to argue both sides of an issue because you don't have any conviction based upon real practice. You have thought through your arguments intellectually, but I am not certain that you have gotten down into the trenches and attempted to apply on a practical basis what you have come to profess as your understanding. If I am wrong, correct me.

<font color=green>I will not get into an argument of how I (Vs you) specifically keep or do not keep the Feasts. As I said, people have differing opinions as to how and even when, and I do not wish to argue concerning how I (or you) fast, if we fast, how long we fast, etc. I am not here to present my view or practice as superior (or inferior) over anyone else, so that I (or you) can sit in judgement. I just wish to discuss things concerning the Hebrew Scriptures in the hope of seeing clearer. Not to get personal and judgmental. I prefer to leave that part up to YHUH.</font>

We absolutely know that a "day" can either be a 12 hour period of daylight or a 24 hour period of both night and day. We have no reason to conclude that the seventh day of the week consists of only 12 hours of daylight.

<font color=green>Daylight does not always consist of 12 hours, neither does the night always consist of 12 hours. The length of daylight or darkness depends on the time of the year.

We were not talking about the Seventh day Sabbath. We are discussing the Day of Atonement, which the Scripture says: A sabbath sabbathon it is to you. Then it tells us specifically when and how long to keep it; in the ninth of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep your sabbath.</font>

Therefore, every Sabbath Day has a night and day portion just like the pattern of every other day of the week.

<font color=green>If you have a 24 hour day that begins at evening (from evening to evening), then what you have is a 24 hour period that starts with the fading light of of the previous day. The evening cannot be both the end of a day and also the beginning of a day. To say the fading light begins the day is in opposition to what you say happened in Genesis 1:1-2. You said the day begins with the dark because it already existed before the light was called into being.</font>

Every annual Sabbath likewise has a night and day portion. I am curious, Sandy. Do you observe the weekly Sabbath Day? I understand that the Sabbath Day would begin for you Saturday morning at sunrise.

<font color=green>Every 24 hour period has a day (light) and a night (dark). It also has a morning and an evening, (which are periods of twilight- twilight is the pale light before sunrise and and after sunset). Which is what is said in Genesis 1 where it says, He said let there be Light...and Elohym separated the light from the dark and he called the Light "Day" and he called the Dark "Night" and there was evening and morning...

See, it says a 24 hour period has a day (light), a night (dark), an evening and a morning.

Yes, I observe the Seventh Day Sabbath, as I stated in a previous post. It does not begin for me Saturday morning at sunrise. It begins before sunrise. It begins at first light, not with the sun.</font>

Do you cease from your regular work on the daylight portion of the Sabbath? How about the night portion of your Sabbath Day? Do you, on the night portion, the period of time from sunset Saturday to sunrise Sunday morning, refrain from doing your work?

<font color=green>As I stated above, I am not going to get into specifics of how I keep or do not keep Sabbath. The opinions of what is okay and not okay are so diverse and I do not wish to argue concerning them. I will say only this much and that is I refrain from secular activities on the Sabbaths.</font>

In the same manner, every annual Sabbath Day like Yom Kippur has a night and day portion. If the weekly Sabbath and the annual Sabbaths do not have night portions, then it is clearly your responsibility to explain to us which day of the week or which day of the month is to receive a double night portion. You cannot have it both ways, Sandy. You are going to have to get down in the trenches and explain what you do practice. When you explain your practice, then we will be able to see what you really believe.

Sincerely, Spying
<font color=green>My we are getting pretty demanding :) Do you honestly think that I can prove anything beyond a shadow of doubt? Of course I can't. Neither can you. I am still seeking truth. I have not said I know it all. I have only said what I believe to possibly be the truth.</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy and Everyone,

Sandy began this thread by challenging this statement made to Bratu by myself on the Eye of the Storm Thread:
The point is this: The arrangement of dividing light and darkness cannot be broken. The day always begin with night, but then the light always arises and triumphs over darkness. Does this picture or arrangement make sense to you, Bratu?I have listened to Sandy and have already admitted to her that technically the above statement is incorrect if it is impossible for the night to begin with light. I just used "Sandy speak" in making that statement. She will know what I am saying. I will say this much to Sandy's credit: She has remained remarkably consistent throughout this debate. Sandy has made a number of posts on this issue without making a whole lot of commentary or supporting statements. I think she enjoys watching us scratch our heads trying to figure out what she is saying. I have brought together a litany of her statements from the various posts. I know that they have been lifted out of context (with Sandy there is very little context), but, what I am working to do, is help you all become familiar with "Sandy speak". Sandy's words will appear in green. Any commentary that I might add will follow in blue:
<font color="green">I no longer believe the Biblical day begins at evening as the majority claim, but that it begins with first light.</font color><font color="blue">First light is "Sandy speak" for the Morning. This light always belongs to the Day. In "Sandy speak" a Day can either be a 24 hour period of time inclusive of both Night and Day or a Day can also mean a period of time exclusive of night, give or take roughly about 12 hours.</font color>
<font color="green">A (24 hr) <B>DAY</b> begins at first <B>LIGHT</b> not at the end of the light (evening).
DAY = LIGHT (Genesis 1:5). DAY does not always mean a 24 hour period. So for me, when it says <B>from the evening of the ninth day until the following evening you are to observe your Sabbath</b> I have no problem understanding it.</font color><font color="blue">What "Sandy speak" is saying here is that it is ok for us to fast roughly 24 hours from the evening of the ninth day, then also throughout the night till morning, then throughout the morning and daylight up to and including the evening. One is not required to fast throughout the night which follows the second evening because only the 10th Day (daylight portion with accompanying morning and evening) is the Day of Atonement. Are you all starting to catch on? Look what happens whenever you begin to become familiar with and begin to use "Sandy speak":</font color>
<font color="green">The <B>LIGHT</b> is the beginning of the first <B>DAY</b>.
Spying, evening is the end of the light, not the beginning.
Spying, how can your Friday night meal be a Sabbath get together? Friday <B>night</b> is exactly what you said, Friday night (night=dark) the end of the sixth day.</font color><font color="blue">If light=day and evening is the end of the light (day), and evening is not night, how can Friday night be the end of the sixth day? Should not Friday evening be the end of the sixth day? See how easy it is to misspeak with "Sandy speak". So, even Sandy stumbles in "Sandy speak". Consider these statements:</font color>
<font color="green">DAY = LIGHT (Genesis 1:5). DAY does not always mean a 24 hour period.
Every 24 hour period has a day (light) and a night (dark).
Yahnathan, I have not argued that DAY can mean both the daylight portion of the day as well as a 24 hour period.</font color><font color="blue">Those of you who are becoming proficient with "Sandy speak" will of course recognize the consistency behind those three statements. Sandy would never argue that a Day consists of just daylight. After all, a day consists of morning, daylight, and evening.</font color>
<font color="green">Good morning Spying, Yes, I observe the Seventh Day Sabbath. For me it begins at first light.</font color><font color="blue">Yes, Sandy, but when does the Sabbath Day end? According to "Sandy speak" the Sabbath Day ends with the evening. This could be very convenient. It could mean that one is perhaps only required to remember the light=day. Thus, Sandy need not remember any Sabbath night because one is not required to remember the night, and so on, and so on, and so on.</font color>
<font color="green">Do you honestly think that I can prove anything beyond a shadow of doubt?</font color><font color="blue">Yes, Sandy, I think that you have proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can take something clear and make it doubtful through "Sandy speak".</font color>

Even so, I find this statement insightful:
<font color="green">Evening is not the time of darkness. It is the period of time also known as twilight or dusk, which is the faint light between sun set and darkness. The hours of daylight are not called morning. Morning also is a period of twilight or dusk, which is the faint light before the sun rises.</font color>Sandy, morning and evening seem to be similar in that both are twilight. Both you say are faint light. If the day=light begins with faint light, and the day=light ends with faint light, who is to say for certain that the night=darkness does not also begin and end with faint light?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello Spying
You wrote:</font>
Sandy has made a number of posts on this issue without making a whole lot of commentary or supporting statements. I think she enjoys watching us scratch our heads trying to figure out what she is saying. I have brought together a litany of her statements from the various posts. I know that they have been lifted out of context (with Sandy there is very little context), but, what I am working to do, is help you all become familiar with "Sandy speak".<font color=green>It seems by your post that you believe that you know what I am saying and are attempting to explain it to everyone else.

As to context, is Scripture not good enough context? Does it always have to be accompanied with commentary, footnotes or a thesis?

You quoted me as saying:</font>
A (24 hr) DAY begins at first LIGHT not at the end of the light (evening). DAY = LIGHT (Genesis 1:5). DAY does not always mean a 24 hour period. So for me, when it says from the evening of the ninth day until the following evening you are to observe your Sabbath I have no problem understanding it.<font color=green>And then you responsed with:</font>
What "Sandy speak" is saying here is that it is ok for us to fast roughly 24 hours from the evening of the ninth day, then also throughout the night till morning, then throughout the morning and daylight up to and including the evening. One is not required to fast throughout the night which follows the second evening because only the 10th Day (daylight portion with accompanying morning and evening) is the Day of Atonement. Are you all starting to catch on? Look what happens whenever you begin to become familiar with and begin to use "Sandy speak":<font color=green>I do not follow you here. The Scripture says:Leviticus 23:26-32
...in the ninth of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep your sabbath.I see this as meaning- from the evening of the ninth until the evening of the tenth. Is that not what you believe it to say?

You quote me as saying:</font>
The LIGHT is the beginning of the first DAY. Spying, evening is the end of the light, not the beginning. Spying, how can your Friday night meal be a Sabbath get together? Friday night is exactly what you said, Friday night (night=dark) the end of the sixth day.<font color=green>And you responded with this:</font>
If light=day and evening is the end of the light (day), and evening is not night, how can Friday night be the end of the sixth day? Should not Friday evening be the end of the sixth day?...<font color=green>Yes I see the error that I made. I said "evening is the end of the light", but I should have said "evening is the ENDING of the light".

You wrote:</font>
Yes, Sandy, but when does the Sabbath Day end? According to "Sandy speak" the Sabbath Day ends with the evening. This could be very convenient. It could mean that one is perhaps only required to remember the light=day. Thus, Sandy need not remember any Sabbath night because one is not required to remember the night, and so on, and so on, and so on.<font color=green>As I have already said, I also believe a complete 24 hour day consists of Day and Night.

You wrote:</font>
Sandy, morning and evening seem to be similar in that both are twilight. Both you say are faint light. If the day=light begins with faint light, and the day=light ends with faint light, who is to say for certain that the night=darkness does not also begin and end with faint light?<font color=green>Since much of the discussion has been based on the Scriptures as saying that it was dark over the surface of the earth prior to the creation of the light, then in a biblical sense night=darkness could not begin with faint light, because it did not yet exist.</font>