Is There A Cover Up In Here??? [Archive] - LO-AMMI DISCUSSION FORUMS

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Stranger

05-10-2001, 07:14 PM

There must be a conspiracy in Christianity to cover up all the embarrassing discrepancies in the NT. The effort to elevate Jesus to a nearly sinless state is pathetic. The Christian clergy is doing a superb job in covering up anything that doesn’t look decent in the NT. That is the tradition initiated by the early church fathers when they were putting it together. Whoever wrote Peter’s letters made false statements to favor the Christian faith. For example,

1 Peter 2:21 (NIV) To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

Peter is misquoting the Tanakh saying that Christ did not sin so the Christian should follow in his footsteps. A closer analysis of Jesus’ life reveals plenty of glitches that would convict him on several counts in any court of law. Jesus was put together in writing many years after the facts so it was easy to blend fact and fiction about him. Christians believe almost anything. Take this,

John 18:33 (NIV) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"
35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"
36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

(See: Luke 23:3, Mark 15:2)

Matthew 27:11 (NIV) Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
12 When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer.
13 Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?"
14 But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.

Compare Matthew’s “Jesus made no reply” to John’s Christ charging the Jews with his arrest. Someone is lying. Since NT was written many years after the facts most writers were not first hand witnesses of the events, either. So we do not know for sure how much in it is fact and how much is fantasy to favor the faith. So let’s see if Christ’s life is worth copying.

Peter says that, “When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate;” but Peter is forgetting that Christ is unmatched taking the initiative of insulting the Jews. He even forgot that Jesus called him Satan in front of everybody!

Matthew 16:23 (NIV) Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Christ would spontaneously insult the Jews just for being Jews. He called his own blood relatives “snakes,” “brood of vipers,” “sons of the devil,” and so on. So in effect Peter is saying that it is OK to malign the Jews like Christ did to follow in the “footsteps of the master.” Christianity seems to pursue all the opposite of what Christ was doing. They are now “saving” the Jews from the sulfur and brimstone burning Goy Hell that Christ dared them to escape.

Christ was teaching that nobody should be angry with his/her brother and call him, “Raca” or “you fool.” Jesus was obviously an exemption to his own teaching. So if any Christian wants to follow “in the footsteps of the master” he/she must know how far behind to follow and what steps to skip. Christ said that…

Matthew 23:2 (NIV) "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Surely Jesus didn’t call any of his brothers that he came to save, “Raca” or “you fool,” but he actually hurled them worse insults than that. So anyone “following in the footsteps of the master” is probably aware that hypocrisy is the rule #1 of the game. Jesus accused the Pharisees of the same hypocrisy he was committing. The early Christians were always very delighted by the insults that Jesus hurled at the Jews for being Jews. They never objected, not even today.

Matthew 5:22 (NIV) But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

John 8:44 (NIV) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 21:8 (NIV) But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers (i.e. the Jews), the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars (i.e. the Jews, a.k.a. “sons of the Devil”) --their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 14:10 (NIV) he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 

Hitler’s final solution was total riddance and destruction of the Jews, but Jesus (i.e. the Lamb)’s final solution is to make them suffer sizzling alive in a sulfur and brimstone Inferno forever so he and his “holy” ones can enjoy watching. Take your pick. The holocaust was hardly a picnic! Christ said that the sulfur burning Hell was created for the devil and his angels. He also said that the Jews are the children of the devil. So it is only natural that both should burn in the Goy Hell forever!

Peter says, “Christ didn’t retaliate” and “Christ entrusted himself to him who judges justly.” This is so inaccurate! Christ is on record doing all the judging! To some sinner Jews he forgave their sins on the spot, but to the Roman soldiers that were crucifying him he asked the “father” to forgive them. Is it jurisdiction or glitch? The inconsistency in the NT is breathtaking! The Jews are depicted as so dumb. They are quoted objecting Jesus’ forging the sins of a Jew saying that only Almighty Yahweh can forgive sins, but they are reported as not even blinking an eye when Christ damns them in judgment to a sulfur burning Hell. This is an obvious glitch that the writers of the NT slipped. No Christian ever objected, either.

When Peter says that, “when Christ suffered, he made no threats” he ignored that Jesus is telling the story of the rejected son and his (i.e. Jesus) revenge. The writers of the NT don’t keep track of what they write.

First, they tell you…

Matthew 21:37 (NIV) Last of all, he sent his son (i.e. Christ) to them. `They will respect my son,' he said.
38 "But when the tenants (i.e. the Jews) saw the son, they said to each other, `This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.'
39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Then, they tell you…

John 6:15 (NIV) Jesus, knowing that they (i.e. the Jews) intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself. 

Finally, they tell you…

Luke 19:27 (NIV) But those enemies of mine (i.e. the Jews) who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

So the Jews won’t only have their heads chopped off anyway by Jesus’ followers (i.e. the Christians) but the Jews will burn in sulfur and brimstone for all eternity for the pleasure of Christ (a.k.a. “the Savior”) and the Christians. Peter’s bit that, “Christ entrusted himself to him who judges justly” is not what Jesus was doing. Jesus stated that “all judgment” was given to him (contrary to Yahweh’s Word!)

John 5:22 (NIV) Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Daniel 7:21 * As I watched, this horn (i.e. Christianity) was waging war against the saints (i.e. the Jews) and defeating them, (e.g. 6,000,000 of them in the holocaust alone and who knows how many more were killed by the Christian Crusaders, the Most Holy Inquisition, and so on!)
22 until the Ancient of Days (i.e. the Almighty Yahweh) came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High (i.e. the Jews), and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

The final Judge is not Jesus Christ, but Almighty Yahweh and he is judging in favor of Israel! So it is possible that if “Jesus Christ” were a real Jew that he be saved anyway because Peter said that, “he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.” So let us not despair for the future. There is hope for everybody!

Hey! Old Shep, #7, Eliyah. et al them Christians, where are you???

Thummim

05-10-2001, 09:42 PM

Stranger, has it ever occured to you as it has to me, that underneath the faith of Xtianity is an innocent JEW who was murdered by gentiles? One more JEW to add to the millions already murdered. Imagine thinking that your purpose in life was to give hope to your brethren and even spend your life doing it. Now imagine some faith not yours using your life to assault the people you love enough to die for, and oppressing them into their graves unmercifully. You could hate this faith with all your heart and be unable to forgive yourself for the evil you caused without any intent on your part. You have no way of governing what is written about you. If you could somehow see what your life brought to those you love, wouldn't you be in agony over it? Could such a person ever forgive himself? It's the curse of the righteous to always hold themselves accountable. Remember, it's the unrighteous who can leave their guilt behind. I wonder if he might choose to really make of himself a sin offering? That is a whole burnt offering. Since the xtians think of themselves as the body of christ and no such sin offering has occured yet, wouldn't all xtians be invited to the atonement for having made the JEWish people guilty for their name, which may even be as I believe, the name of their own Eloheem. YHWH never gave his name to his people to be their curse. Can you really believe that the JEWish people who won't even allow themselves to use the name of YHWH, would have written the sacred name in its entirety within the pages of the tanakh? Remember that one of the ten mitzvot is not to misuse the sacred name. All the xtians would have to do is somehow get their messiah to forgive himself or to forgive those who bound themselves to him for their part in the slaughter of his own people. Then, perhaps this was YHWH's plan all along. ....Michael

Spying

05-11-2001, 06:44 AM

Hi Stranger,

(I actually made this post for another thread, but it will work here also)I, too, am presently pressed for the place to write and reply as I ought so you need not apologize to me. I am behind in writing not only to you but also to Sandy and Thummim. Usually, I depend upon the Sabbath to help me catch up, but that probably won't happen this weekend. I will be in Nashville.

I feel compelled to draw your attention to a list of scriptures about work for you. I am going to first give this list to you without commentary, ha, which is hard for me to do. Maybe you will be moved to see some of the things that I think I see:
Exod 34:10
10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of (the) YAHWEH: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. (KJV)

Eccl 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that ELOHIM maketh from the beginning to the end. (KJV)

Eccl 3:17
17 I said in mine heart, ELOHIM shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. (KJV)

Isa 61:8-11
8 For I (the) YAHWEH love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which (the) YAHWEH hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in (the) YAHWEH, my soul shall be joyful in my ELOHIM; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the ADONAI ELOHIM will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. (KJV)

1 Chr 17:11-14
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. (KJV)

Isa 64:8
8 But now, O YAHWEH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. (KJV)

Isa 19:22-25
22 And (the) YAHWEH shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to (the) YAHWEH, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom (the) YAHWEH of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.(KJV)

Isa 5:11-13
11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of (the) YAHWEH, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. (KJV)

Isa 10:23
23 For the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. (KJV)

Isa 28:21-22
21 For (the) YAHWEH shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.(KJV)

Isa 29:14
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. (KJV)

John 4:34
34 Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (KJV)

John 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (KJV)

John 19:30
30 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (KJV)

Acts 13:41-42
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. (KJV)

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahushua unto good works, which ELOHIM hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJV)

Jer 17:21-27
21 Thus saith (the) YAHWEH; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith (the) YAHWEH, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.
26 And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of (the) YAHWEH.
27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. (KJV)

1 Pet 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of ELOHIM: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of ELOHIM?(KJV)Have a good Sabbath Day!

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

05-12-2001, 10:31 AM

Shabbat Shalom Michael,

I must confess that I do not believe that the NT is narrating the true facts on the life of the historical Jew that was used to create Christianity. Nobody knows in Hebrew what the real name of this young Jewish person was. I hate to incriminate the wrong person and I hate to think that maybe I used YHWH's name in vain by naming Yahushua in all this. I feel awfully guilty of having done it. I trust that Yahweh will forgive me. I didn't mean to offend him personally. So I will stick to the Greek names of Jesus and Christ from now on. The early church fathers made Christ into a name, too. I will correct myself from now on. So thank you, Michael. I appreciate your comments. I agree with you. I don’t believe that a young Jewish wannabe messiah would go about damning the Jews the way the Greek Iesous, English/Latin Jesus did.

I strongly believe that the NT is a fantasy based on some of the life and teaching of a fine young Jewish man. In fact, I cannot possibly believe that any Jew would really get away calling his fellow Jews all kinds of nasty names like Jesus did and still be alive for too long. If this young man really existed he was probably a HaTorah observant Jew who thought to be the anointed one like so many others in his days, but things didn't work for him and he was killed in unusual circumstances. The story of his real life was made up to a great extent. Paul got to know a lot about the historical Jew whom he named Iesous and came up with the Christian religion. He is stating that in his own letters. He says that his stuff was not something that he learned from men like the Apostles did, but that he got all that from visions, dreams, trances, and so on.

Stranger

05-12-2001, 10:33 AM

Shabbat Shalom Spying,

I'm not sure if I'll say it right, but every time that I read your messages I get the impression that you are sneering at the Sacred Name. If I remember correctly you said you do it because of your affection to the KJV that uses "The" LORD instead of plain YHWH (or Yahweh if we were to transliterate.) It must be a deeply rooted generic affection to the Heathen Baal ("Lord") from some of our ancestors that forces some of us to act the way we do.

Anyway, going back to your comments. I can see your point of saying that Yahweh is still doing some work. But you must admit that Paul confirmed the fact that he finished or completed the "work" that Christ started. He had all kinds of proofs. So when Jesus said, "it is finished" it was only wishful thinking he really didn't complete anything. This is thoroughly documented by Paul. I posted my comments in a previous message in this forum. So it seems that a lot of people in the NT is completing the work started by someone else. I don't think that Jesus completed anything specific. He keeps the nature of "his father's work" a secret. According to the records I presented in this thread I can also assert that Jesus "work" is looking forward to the day that he will have the heads of the Jews chopped off and have the Jews burning in sulfur and brimstone forever. But even this is not finished until we see Sweet Jesus smiling face watching the Jews burning in Hell. So when he says that everything is "finished" do you mean that he accomplished that, too? Funny thing is that Jesus never ever had words of hope and consolation for the Jews, but only damnation. Your thread of verses on "work" from the OT may not have any connection with what Jesus was talking about. He never specified what kind of work was he talking about. I suspect that when Jesus Christ said, "it is finished" he gave up on his bit to be used by the Almighty in a great way to set himself as a king of the Jews. "It is finished" to me sounds more like, "I'm finished" than anything else. After his death All his disciples went back to their usual place of business and forgot all about Jesus. Christ reply to Pontius' query on whether he was the king of the Jews he said, "it is like you say." I wish to hear a more positive and more personal statement from a Jewish messiah.

Jesus sweated blood interceding for himself before the Most High. There is not one shred of evidence that he ever prayed in his final hour for the Jews that he came to save. He only prayed forgiveness for the Roman soldiers that nailed him to the cross, not for the Jews whom he called murderers and damned them to Hell. He even dared them to escape from it. I don’t think that Christ accomplished anything. His greatest "work" is one of the major blunders in history that had millions of Jews killed because of the way he "finished his work." I can understand that if you are making a living out of Christianity you must be now in a desperate gasping for making any sense out of what kind of "work" Jesus did.

Thummim

05-13-2001, 07:00 AM

....Stranger, it amazes me that our beliefs parallel so tightly. I once thought I was alone in my concerns. Now I know that we are an army fighting for the JEWish people. May the truth always be on our side. Shalom, ....Michael

Spying

05-15-2001, 06:32 AM

Hi Stranger,

Thank you, I did have a remarkable Sabbath and weekend. I spent the Sabbath in conference with other believers in Nashville. The Conference was sponsored and hosted by a minister of the True Jesus Church. The True Jesus Church was established by Messiah in mainland China in the earth 20th Century. The conference was called to discuss the symbolism surrounding Noah's Ark. At this conference, I used the Sacred Names in my speech because there were believers attending who also use the Sacred Names. You know my posting history, how I began posting on the EliYah Forum using the common names. You can go to and read our website where we still use the common names. Personally, my speech is following the pattern of my writing. Gradually, I am being moved to use the Sacred Names in my speech, but I still slip up and use the common names. I do not look upon it the same as you, but I am moving in your direction. My practice is this: Whenever I am in the presence of someone like yourself, I use the Sacred Names not to offend them. When I am with an Orthodox Jew, I use HaShem for the same reason. In my writings I quote from the King James Version, and I began putting the "the" in parenthesis as an accommodation to Sandy; eventhough, she does not recognize it as such. I don't see how I can just take the "the" out. If I did, then it would not be the Kings James Version.

Stranger, Messiah nowhere says that he finished "everything" as you indicate above. Messiah is very specific. John uses a third person singular, perfect indicative passive form of the verb "teleo" to translate what Messiah did say. So, "he, she, or it" is indeed completed or finished. Messiah does not say which one it is. It could be "he" is finished. Note also that the verb is passive, and that the tense is perfect. I know for a fact that everything was not completed or fulfilled with the death of Messiah. If Messiah meant to indicate "everything" was fulfilled, then a plural form of "teleo" would have been used. So, it would behoove all of us to indeed ask: Who or what is finished at the receiving of the vinegar?

Indeed, Messiah had a certain sense about himself and his work. He knew that he had been sent to accomplish a work at a specific time. At the Passover supper with his disciples, Messiah stated that this individual work had been successfully completed:
John 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (KJV)So, if Messiah's work had been fully discharged by himself in an active sense prior to the Cross, then it is the work of someone else which is being completed through the Cross. I have a sense that the work completed is the strange work of Isaiah 28:
Isa 28:21-22
21 For (the) YAHWEH shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from (the) ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.(KJV)Messiah did say:
John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.(KJV)If all men were somehow crucified with Messiah (joined to Messiah) as the Apostle Paul does indicate, then a consumptive end of all mankind did occur at the Cross. I know, Stranger, that would be quite strange, wouldn't it?

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

05-15-2001, 04:08 PM

If all men were somehow crucified with Messiah (joined to Messiah) as the Apostle Paul does indicate, then a consumptive end of all mankind did occur at the Cross. I know, Stranger, that would be quite strange, wouldn't it? Absolutely! I would say weird, too! You seem to ignore the character reference that I put together on Jesus Christ. I cannot possibly ignore it. I don't believe that Jesus Christ fits the shoe of an honest wannabe messiah. I believe that Saint Paul manipulated the original character's life records to make it fit into his newly created Christian religion. The more I study the NT the more convinced I am.

Stranger

05-17-2001, 03:27 PM

Spying, I’ve been thinking about your coolness as a Christian. I’m really happy that we are not living in the Middle Ages when things got real bad with any truth finder. Judging by your cold answers about the virtues of Christianity you are telling me a lot about yourself. You seem to carry a big stick behind that smile. If we were living in a Christian dominated world you would put me to the torch without any hesitation. You would do it gladly “following in the footsteps of the master” because the real Jesus Christ that you worship is the one that will have you chop the heads of the Jews that did not want to have him for a king. Then you, Jesus Christ, Paul, and all the good Christians would enjoy watching the Jews and everybody else burning eternally in a sulfur and brimstone Hell that was prepared for the Jews’ father, the Devil and his angels. That is the place that Jesus Christ dared the Jews to escape from. I wonder what is that he had in mind to do them if they were to escape. This is really what Christianity is all about. It is truly an anti-Semitic organization operating in the “spiritual” (i.e. religious) world in the last 2000 years. It was concocted by Saint Paul and he turned against his own blood relatives, the Jews, simply because they didn’t go along with his new religion.

Thummim

05-17-2001, 07:13 PM

Stranger, I really like spying. I think that you're being a little hard on him. After all, he's trying to save us from hell. Unfortunatly, this is a part of his faith. Coming from a (*GD forgive me*), christian backgrown, I know a little of his concerns. He really cares about us. To escape christianity, you have to love something more than yourself. The same hell that he is trying to save us from, would become his own hell if he turned away from his faith. It takes many years of internal conflict to gain a victory in this battle. It leaves your soul bleeding profusely when you fight this fight. You have to stand with your feet in the air for having no place to put them during your time in the middle ground of the battle. If you can gain the strength to curse your own soul for what you believe in and fight the fight long enough, you gain a victory. Still it isn't over as you know. I can see that you are still in the puking stage of your renewal. I puked out christianity from my soul for years. It's a very unclean feeling to realize what you were a part of, when you let (jesus) be your god. You undoubtably know what I'm talking about. Spying doesn't. He still loves one JEW (not a very good one) more than the millions of others. I repeat, Spying is a good guy. He is just misdirected. After all, this is his site and he lets us post here what we feel inside our hearts. This is a christian who lets us post very anti-christian feelings on his site. He wouldn't let us do that if he didn't care about us. He doesn't understand that it is christianities sins that (jesus) died from, and not for.
....Michael

Spying

05-18-2001, 06:32 AM

Hi Stranger,

Allow me to give you a glimpse into what I believe. This world died in Messiah according to the working of the Law (i.e. the sacrificial system, Messiah died according to the Scriptures-1 Corinthians 15:3). So, Messiah's dead body comprises all flesh. At some point prior to this death, Messiah's physical body hanging on the Cross began to represent all of mankind. When Messiah breathed his last with a great shout, his breath poured out over his body. Of course, when you think like I do, you know that this represents the pouring out of the spirit upon all of mankind as prophesied by Joel. This giving of the spirit to all flesh occurs in stages as the Apostle Paul does plainly tell everyone in 1 Corinthians 15. Whenever someone dies, scripture indicates that the spirit must go back to the one who gave it:
Eccl 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto ELOHIM who gave it. (KJV)So, in a fundamental sense, this is what occurred through the Cross: Messiah was able through the Cross to take vengeance upon and thereby kill all of mankind. When he died, we all died. When he breathed his last, it was our last breath. Where did all this breath or spirit go? It must go back to the one who gave it according to the scripture, and Stranger, who do you think this very one "who gave it" may be? You guessed it. It must go back to the very ELOHIM who gave it in the first place. YAHWEH emptied HIS spirit into Adam. Messiah gathered all that spirit through the Cross. Now, all the spirit must go back to YAHWEH. See, the amazing things that open up to you when you gain a glimpse into the secret work of Messiah. All the spirit came back to Messiah in the grave. He is the head of the body. Messiah is the resurrected YAHWEH.

Now, Messiah is fully able, according to the finishing of his work, to give his own spirit to his own body. This spirit is first given to the Elect, and I am one of the Elect, and I am not alone. Messiah's spirit is also given to many others. I happen to believe that you and Thummim and Sandy and EliYAH and Seventh Angel and Simpleman and DeAnna and Dorota and Sis and many others are all part of the Elect. We are just beginning to be invigorated. We really don't have our bearings yet, but we are getting there. There is an awakening and a learning process that we must experience. We are yawning and stretching right now. Gradually, the body of mankind begins to heat up because of our activity. Eventually, the whole body will be instantaneously transformed into a consuming fire. Spontaneous combustion is what I am talking about.

Now, I have told what is going to happen. If you are part of the Elect, you will know that this is your destiny as YAHWEH.

Have a good Sabbath, Stranger.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

05-18-2001, 07:04 AM

...Spying, I'm not allowed to bow to an idol of human flesh, even if someone else is doing the bowing for me. How do I get out of this club? ....Michael

Stranger

05-19-2001, 10:37 AM

Shalom Spying,

I admire your sticking to what you believe in spite of all the glitches. Your religion is fully bugged and you know it. Yours is a philosophy of life based on assumptions, not one bit different from Islam or Buddhism. I cannot use the Scriptures that Jesus himself used to document any CLAIM to any salvation. This guy Jesus was probably a good HaTorah observant Jew much different from what they made him to be. Paul used him to base the Christian faith that he founded. After that everybody jumped on the wagon. Many gospels were written of which only 4 were accepted for mystic reasons. They all contradict themselves and you want me to believe what they say. This concept of yours that the world died at the cross and so on is so Heathen. I’m surprised that you still defend such theories as true. Then, again, if you are into this for the bread on your table, I can understand.

I agree with Micheal. You may be a good guy in spite of being a Christian. You are letting me post in this forum knowing that I don’t agree with you. Eliyah had a phobic fear that I would corrupt some visitors to his forum because he had no answer to my questions. The answers he was giving me were all based of assumptions and assertions of what the truth ought to be. Both of you seem to either ignore the “difficulties” (i.e. contradictions in the NT) or keep accepting them as intelligent inspired statements from the Almighty and in doing so you explain them away. I am shocked to believe that I was deceived by Christianity for so many years. You cannot say that I apostatized I believe that I'm in a teshuvah process going back to the old ways...

Jeremiah 6:16 * This is what Yahweh says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls...'

Spying

05-21-2001, 06:20 AM

Hi Thummin,

I am sorry if I have given you offence.

When I first looked at your reply, this is the scripture that came to mind:
Isa 45:22-25
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am ELOHIM, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in (the) YAHWEH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In (the) YAHWEH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. (KJV)Then, I remembered that Paul quoted this scripture in the New Testament:
Rom 14:7-13
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Sovereign; and whether we die, we die unto the Sovereign: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Sovereign's.
9 For to this end Messiah both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Sovereign both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Messiah.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the YAHWEH, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to ELOHIM.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to ELOHIM.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. (KJV)Please forgive me if I have through my teaching done so to you?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

05-21-2001, 09:10 AM

...Spying, I have nothing to accuse you of. My battle is to stem the assault upon the JEWish people and see that they are all attached to their Eloheem. I enjoy your post's, even when I don't agree with them. (jesus) is out to save the world, and I, only the house of YHWH. I do not believe in the condemnation of the world. The assault upon the JEWish people is evident. This is where my battle is fought. ....Michael

Spying

05-23-2001, 05:47 AM

Hi Stranger,

I could not agree with you more. This whole exercise of YAHWEH with humanity is all about restoring the ancient paths. I view them as faith, hope, and love. This is the way of YAH which Satan thoroughly corrupted through his selfishness. Messiah did come and show us how again to walk in them. That is why he is our savior, to give us light to show us the paths. The ancient paths are fully restored when we are also walking in them.

Christianity does not perceive that the whole world did die with Messiah. They may give lip service to this belief because it is mentioned by Paul:
2 Cor 5:14
14 For the love of Messiah constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (KJV)But, it is not fundamental to their belief system. Christians do not believe in the ultimate unity of ELOHIM and man as do the Tzaddikim. They believe in a permanent distinction that should not be blurred. ELOHIM is over there, and we are over here, is their belief. I suppose that Christians got such an idea from the Jews who are also fundamentally opposed to the idea that we are all to be united with ELOHIM.

So, you are correct in identifying my belief that the whole world did die with Messiah as "Heathen" and not Christian. It is not really a Christian belief. Indeed, Stranger, you keep throwing Christianity in my face as if Christianity is something that I accept and believe. You know enough to know that is not true, so why do it?

Consider this: If through the Cross of Messiah, YAHWEH is reconciled as Paul does teach, why is YAHWEH reconciled, and what does this reconciliation mean? YAHWEH is reconciled not because one man died to pay the penalty of all, as Christianity does teach, but YAH is reconciled because all sinners have died through the Cross. Do you see the distinction? If you are angry or mad at someone, you can only be reconciled if the individual pays the price for the wrong that he or she committed against you. We all sinned against YAHWEH. YAHWEH requires that we pay the price. YAHWEH requires that we die. If all of us did indeed die, then YAHWEH is reconciled. This reconciliation, which is our death, was given to the whole world through the Cross of Messiah. It is a gift. Now, what are we going to do with this gift? Here is what Paul says:
2 Cor 5:20
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Messiah, as though ELOHIM did beseech you by us: we pray you in Messiah's stead, be ye reconciled to ELOHIM. (KJV)FOR WHAT REASON?
2 Cor 13:11
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the ELOHIM of love and peace shall be with you.(KJV)Neither Christianity nor Judaism teach perfection, but Paul does, and so did Messiah Yahushua teach perfection. How about you, Stranger, what do you teach?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

05-23-2001, 07:29 AM

...YHWH killed mankind through the flood, but Noah found grace. Now must Noah also die? Does the rainbow infer that YHWH will seek out some other way to kill Noah, than a flood, or does it suggest that YHWH is satisfied? You're wrong, to attach guilt worthy of death, to all mankind. Where does YHWH say that he desires the re-expiation of mankinds sin, in the tanakh? YHWH seems to have a more individual approach to sin, as I read it.
....Michael

Spying

05-24-2001, 06:12 AM

Hi Thummim,

You know there a lot of people that I would like to have a conversation with. Noah is one of them. Do you think you could talk him into coming to this forum and have a discussion with us? Indeed, I have a whole host of individuals that I have questions for. I would love to meet them all. They seem all difficult to reach. For some reason I just can't quite get into contact with them? I don't know! Maybe:
You're wrong, to attach guilt worthy of death, to all mankind.Noah, answer this man and prove him right.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

05-24-2001, 08:09 AM

...Spying, we'll invoke the great congregation and gather these people's together. I have questions that I would also like to ask them, as well. They've certainly left me scratching my head often enough. ....Michael

Stranger

05-26-2001, 01:26 PM

Consider this: If through the Cross of Messiah, YAHWEH is reconciled as Paul does teach, why is YAHWEH reconciled, and what does this reconciliation mean? YAHWEH is reconciled not because one man died to pay the penalty of all, as Christianity does teach, but YAH is reconciled because all sinners have died through the Cross. Do you see the distinction?Spying, I admire your ingenuity. You found fault with the basic teaching of Christianity and now you are coming up with a new idea to preserve Christianity in still another form. It simply doesn't square with the Tanakh. Christianity is based on the false assumption that our Creator is unforgiving and that he demands a human sacrifice to appease himself to his creatures. This is not what the Tanakh is teaching...

Numbers 14:19-20 * In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now." Yahweh replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked…

2 Samuel 12:13 * Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against Yahweh." Nathan replied, "Yahweh has taken away your sin. You are not going to die… (BTW, this word "die" is the same one used on Adam)

Psalms 86:5 * You are forgiving and good, O Yahweh, abounding in love to all who call to you.

Psalms 99:8 * O Yahweh our Elohim, you answered them; you were to Israel a forgiving Elohim, though you punished their misdeeds.

Isaiah 40:1-2 * Comfort, comfort my people, says your Elohim. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from Yahweh's hand double for all her sins.

But you say that all the sinners have died at the "Cross." I already have presented documented evidence that Jesus Christ set up his own crucifixion. In the process he made the Jews guilty of it. Just before his crucifixion he did not comfort Jerusalem at all, but stop on his way to the crucifixion to make a long speech to tell Jerusalem that the worst is yet to come. In spite of having been beaten to a pulp at the hands of the Roman soldiers as the Christians assert, Jesus was very eloquent on his way to the crucifixion. He made a very sadistic speech before a group of wailing females of Jerusalem. Earlier in the week he condemned Jerusalem for all the murders in the world.

Luke 23:27 (NIV) A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.
28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.
29 For the time will come when you will say, `Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!'
30 Then "`they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '
31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"

Matthew 23:33 (NIV) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

So I cannot possibly state that Jesus Christ, the Christian messiah had words of comfort and hope for Jerusalem, and much less for the Jews. Jesus Christ is not fulfilling any prophesy that would credit him as the messiah of Israel. Most "prophecies" about him are fabrications made many years after the events and were based on misquotes of the Tanakh.

Neither Christianity nor Judaism teach perfection, but Paul does, and so did Messiah Yahushua teach perfection. How about you, Stranger, what do you teach?If I were to teach anything, I would teach the truth!

Spying

05-27-2001, 08:28 AM

Hi Stranger,

You are so close and yet so far. Listen to yourself:
You found fault with the basic teaching of Christianity and now you are coming up with a new idea to preserve Christianity in still another form.How can any belief system stand when there is fault with basic teaching?

You have seen or you should have seen me teach over and over that true Christianity as a belief system did not survive the Apostolic Assembly. You have seen me argue or you should have seen me argue that an apostasy did indeed occur shortly after the passing of the Apostles. The true Church did encounter and experience the gates of Hades as did Messiah. Death is one of those gates. Messiah, being the Seed of Abraham, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob, and David, does indeed possess the gate of his enemies:
Gen 22:17
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; (KJV)And Messiah does have complete control over those enemies, whoever or whatever those enemies might be.

Messiah proved his ownership of death and the grave through his resurrection. At the proper time, his body, the Church, will also prove that we indeed also own the gate of our enemies through the power of Messiah. The Apostolic Church did enter the grave, and through their suffering and death truth was cast to the ground as it happened with Messiah. So, the multiple enemies, sin, death, and the grave have no permanent triumph over the truth.

It is indeed obviously true that substitutionalism is a false teaching or concept. This false teaching is the foundation of false Christianity as you well have indicated. If I, through my truth, demolish the foundation of false teaching, why you do accuse me of seeking to preserve apostate Christianity? Why not give ourselves the benefit of the doubt and allow that perhaps we might very well be the infancy of a restored or resurrected Apostolic Church?

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

05-28-2001, 05:40 PM

Hi Spying,

The moment you state that there is such an animal as "false Christianity" you imply that there is such thing as "true Christianity" -- The only difference that I see is in the name, but to me both of them are creations of the human mind, namely, Paul's idea. There was only one or two Jews following Paul in all his missionary work.

Colossians 4:11-12 (NIV) My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.) Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jews among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me.

Paul was a proud Roman citizen and he is not crediting any of the Jewish Apostles for any support, either. Actually, he despised them...

Galatians 2:6 (NIV) As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message.

Jesus Christ was a failure as a messiah. Not only that, but if the record that is written of him is true then he is responsible for the death of millions of Jews.

Paul was hardly able to "convert" a handful of Jews. Salvation of the Jews turns out to be a fair weather rescue. One has to fill out a full set of requirements not even hinted in the Tanakh to be saved. In fact in the NT one has to trust in man (or son of man) for his/her salvation which in itself carries a curse from Almighty Yahweh.

Jeremiah 17:5 * This is what Yahweh says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from Yahweh.

One has to fully cooperate with the savior, too. If one is mentally retarded tough luck! I know, the Christians (both kinds) have an accommodation for them, but not for the Jews. So it is not a matter of true or false Christianity. The problem is Christinity itself. It is dysfunctional from the very beginning. Christianity makes the rules as they play the game. You must realize that the "difficulties" that I bring up in this forum are real ones. I take what I read in the NT at face value, and it doesn't compute! Every time I read the NT I get more light from the Sacred Ruach to question the validity of the NT.

Spying

06-01-2001, 10:42 AM

Hi Stranger,

Again, listen to yourself:
I'm not really accusing anyone... And then in almost the same breath you turn around and say:
Jesus Christ was a failure as a messiah. Not only that, but if the record that is written of him is true then he is responsible for the death of millions of Jews........The problem is Christinity itself. It is dysfunctional from the very beginning.You are full of accusations, Stranger, strange as that may seem to you. I have already told you that the Cross of Messiah is a strange work that brought about the death of all mankind. This is the death of billions. Messiah Yahushua performed this work. If Messiah is responsible for the death of all, then surely Messiah can accept responsibility for the death of millions of Jews. Messiah is YAHWEH, and MESSIAH is in charge. The buck stops with him. There is nothing dysfunctional about that.

Does not YAHWEH say concerning HIMSELF?:
Deut 32:39
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no elohim with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. (KJV)If YAHWEH is responsible for the death of all, then surely YAHWEH is responsible for the resurrection of all. Messiah said:
John 5:21-29
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of ELOHIM: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (KJV)So, Stranger, Messiah is responsible. You honor neither the Father or the Son by your implying that someone other than YAHWEH is responsible for the death of million of Jews.

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-01-2001, 07:33 PM

Spying, when I said that I am not accusing anyone I obviously meant anyone in this forum. I definitely point the finger at Jesus Christ for deceiving Judas into betraying him.

So Jesus Christ pretends to be a Heavenly being masquerading as a human being. At the end of his unsuccessful ministry (He hardly saved any Jew) he is setting up “Yah_be_Blessed” (i.e. Judas) to betray him. Jesus Christ was very clairvoyant to know the consequences. Nobody has the right to do that to Yahweh’s anointed (i.e. messiah) people.

To point out that Jesus Christ was dead scared of dying that he even sweated blood is not necessarily accusing him, it is telling it like it is. He was interceding for himself and he wanted the Apostles to pray with him and for him. Christianity has a dysfunctional hero and nobody gives a hoot! My concern is that millions of Jews would be alive today if it weren’t for Christianity.

So you actually condone the killing of millions of Jews? I can go on forever quoting you HaTorah where Yahweh doesn’t go for that. Especially when the Jews are game. I can understand your position Spying. You must defend Christianity no matter how rotten it may be. I cast my lot on the side of Israel. Yahweh is the only one who can kill and bring back to life not man or any son of man. According to your theory, if Yahweh is the one doing the killings then there is nobody responsible for them, not even Hitler. The History Channel should run a documentary on the greatest religious blunder made in human history 2000 years ago, “The alleged savior of Israel ends up provoking the persecution and death of millions of Jews.”

Spying

06-02-2001, 06:31 AM

Hi Stranger,

The scriptures I read both old and new tell me that YAHWEH is firmly in charge. All power comes from above. When YAHWEH gave each of us a spark of HIS power, HIS spirit, through our parents, YAHWEH knew that we would corrupt HIS good spirit. So, YAHWEH gave us the power to do evil. If our power to do evil comes from above, why does YAHWEH then hold us accountable for the evil that we do?

YAHWEH has HIS reasons. You and I may not know fully HIS reasoning, but we can certainly see that YAHWEH believes in accountability. YAHWEH will certainly punish us for the evil that we do. If this is true for all of mankind, then it is certainly true for the chosen people of YAHWEH. They must also be held accountable, and they have been, and they will be:
Deut 32:22-29
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this. (Stranger, this is exactly what you have said. You have said that the hand of Christianity is high, and you have said that YAHWEH has not done the very things that HE has said HE would do.)
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! (KJV)We are definitely at the end of the latter days. Presently, it is toward the end of the sixth day, the day in which the beasts of the field are identified, the day before the Sabbath. Will the Jews enter the Rest of YAHWEH or will they continue because of the hardness of their hearts to experience the teeth of the beasts and the poison of the serpents?

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-02-2001, 01:39 PM

Spying,

I must say that I agree with you on the fact that Yahweh has everything under his control on Earth. I am aware that there seems to be plenty of punishment for Israel in the Tanakh. However I am very careful what is that I say about it. Jesus Christ is pictured damning the Jews in a way that is contrary to everything written about them and their messiah. Jesus Christ slandered them calling them all kinds of names like, “sons of the devil,” “brood of vipers,” and so on. He is not supposed to do that because he is supposed to be their savior. He is supposed to have words of comfort for his people. Instead he is damning them to an everlasting roasting in sulfur and brimstone fire after having them cut to pieces. He even dares them to escape his damnation.

Proverbs 3:12 * because Yahweh disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

Proverbs 30:10 * "Do not slander a servant to his master, or he will curse you, and you will pay for it.”

Isaiah 40:1-2 * Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your Elohim. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of Yahweh’s hand double for all her sins.

Psalms 118:17-18 * I will not die but live, and will proclaim what Yahweh has done. Yahweh has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death.

Matthew 23:33 (NIV) (Jesus Christ, the “judge” said) "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Luke 11:50 (NIV) (Jesus Christ, the "judge" said) Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Obviously Jesus Christ is changing HaTorah. He is blaming the Jews for murder committed even before there was any Jew on Earth. We mustn’t forget that regardless of any overwhelming number of statements to the contrary, Yahweh doesn’t find anything wrong with Israel. So it is not up to you or I to show any of Israel’s dirty linen. I hope to be very careful reading the small print.

Numbers 23:21 * He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Yahweh his Elohim is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

Isaiah 54:5 * For your Maker is your husband--Yahweh Almighty is his name--the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the Elohim of all the earth.
6 Yahweh will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit--a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your Elohim.
7 "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says Yahweh your Redeemer.

Micah 7:19-20 * You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea. You will be true to Jacob, and show mercy to Abraham, as you pledged on oath to our fathers in days long ago.

Now you are asking the question…
Will the Jews enter the Rest of YAHWEH or will they continue because of the hardness of their hearts to experience the teeth of the beasts and the poison of the serpents?…and I believe that your question is satisfactorily answered in the pages of the Tanakh. Jesus Christ is not the answer. He disassociated himself from the Jews at practically every opportunity. He made them guilty of all the murders in the world. He set up Judas so that the Jews would be responsible for his own suicidal death. If the Jews are supposed to suffer as much as you point out I can see that Jesus Christ is about the most effective instrument to accomplish that, but don’t tell me that he is a savior. Christianity is succeeding where Haman failed miserably. Nowhere in the Tanakh Yahweh ever demanded a human sacrifice to atone for anyone’s sin. So Jesus Christ is ruled out as being any kind of a savior based on his “sacrificial” (i.e. suicidal) death. A lot of people still rule from the tomb, so is Jesus Christ. In a sense that is some sort of a resurrection. Anyway, Yahweh will pardon Israel on the spot and without the need of any human sacrifice. So if you are jamming Jesus Christ down the throat of any Jew you are wasting your time and prolonging the Jewish suffering. And if you are getting paid in the process you can consider yourself more successful than Baalam himself...

Spying

06-26-2001, 07:09 AM

Hi Stranger,

YAHWEH has found fault with Israel and with Judah; at least, that is what the prophets do readily indicate:
Mal 3:4-9
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto (the) YAHWEH, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith (the) YAHWEH of hosts.
6 For I am (the) YAHWEH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith (the) YAHWEH of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob ELOHIM? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (KJV)

Jer 3:20
20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith (the) YAHWEH. (KJV)

Mal 2:11
11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of (the) YAHWEH which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange el. (KJV)

Jer 34:17-20
17 Therefore thus saith (the) YAHWEH; Ye have not hearkened unto me, in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: behold, I proclaim a liberty for you, saith (the) YAHWEH, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain, and passed between the parts thereof,
19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;
20 I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth. (KJV)

Hosea 8:11-14
11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but (the) YAHWEH accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.
14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof. (KJV)

Hosea 9:16-17
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
17 My ELOHIM will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. (KJV)

Jer 31:31-32
31 Behold, the days come, saith (the) YAHWEH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith (the) YAHWEH: (KJV)Need I quote more? Surely, you are not now suggesting that YAHWEH has already established a New Covenant with the House of Judah, the very House which broke covenant with HIM? Why would YAHWEH bring such uncleaness upon HIMSELF? Is it righteousness for a man to come again to the marriage bed with a wife who is so promiscuios, so full of lust that she brings to YAHWEH'S bed hired lovers? Shall the Seed of YAHWEH be mixed with the seed of gigolos? What would change in such a relationship, should YAHWEH consent to subject HIMSELF to such uncleanness? Surely, not JUDAH! She has not changed, has she? Judah still trusts in her lovers which she has bought. Judah trusts in America and not in YAHWEH! Why should YAHWEH give her even the time of day?

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-27-2001, 08:06 PM

Hi Spying...

You seem to miss the whole point. It is the end that counts. You are quoting correctly the transitional status of Israel and the Yahudim. You seem to enjoy doing it. You went to a great lenght to discribe the current misadventure of Israel for the reasons that you quoted. You are not saying a word about the final episode. WHY?

Zechariah 8:23 * This is what Yahweh Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, `Let us go with you, because we have heard that Elohim is with you.'"

Christianity will be proven to be 100% dysfunctional by then.

Bratu McCaskey

06-27-2001, 08:21 PM

Em Hotep
Ironic that i would say that dismissing my own peace. The amusing thing that i find from this thread is that i was banned from eliyah's board because he thought i would turn some away from his thoughts. So i came here to listen and say things that i thought or found to be true. Eventually i grew bored with it because there is an inherent weakness in the system that is now prevalent. See here is the problem as i see it: the way our society works is that all other religions (sorry if that isn't the correct title but i'm not interested in semantics) are automatically on the defensive and christianity is on the offensive. All should be on equal ground as far as who is right and who is wrong, however this balance is tainted by the fact of the sheer numbers of sheep through out the land.

The humor to me lies in this, and please don't take offense to this but if you do sorry but too bad, me with a totally different belief structure and a totally different sets of ideas and ideals stated my opinions and not much rukus was made. However when a few people who all essentially worship the same primary God get together to argue the feces hit the fan and the fan fights back. So there is my amusement me and all my variant ideas cause a small squabble but it is when people of similar get together and argue that things really get interesting. Not sure that i have an over all point. hmm...the jews...

Bratu
"Awake, Arise, or be fore'er Fallen"-Milton