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Sandy

04-08-2001, 06:35 PM

There are many reasons not to trust the Greek Scriptures, Iesous and his followers. Here is just one.

Anyone keeping Pesach (Passover) and Matzah (Feast of Unleavened) understands the significance of YHUH'S command to remove chametz (leaven).

According to the Greek Scriptures, Iesous nor his disciples observed this command, therefore they sinned.

Matthew 26 (Mark 14:12, 22; Luke 22:7, 19)
17) And at the beginning of Unleavened (azumos) came the disciples to Iesou, saying to him, Where do you desire we prepare for you to eat the Pascha (Passover)?
26) And as they ate, Iesous took the bread (artos, which is LEAVENED bread) and blessing, he broke and gave to the disciples and said, Take, eat, this is the body of me.

The Greek word for unleavened bread is AZUMOS (# 106) but it clearly states that they used ARTOS (#740), which is LEAVENED bread.

Iesous took LEAVENED bread and gave it to his disciples, and told them, "Take, eat". Iesous knowingly caused his disciples to SIN.

Thummim

04-08-2001, 07:23 PM

Thanks Sandy, this is the perfect piece of knowledge to gain on the second day of pesach. "Which of you convinceth me of sin?" ... unleavened bread?...{Seven days shall you eat unleavened bread; even the first day you shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whomsoever eatheth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.} Jn.8:46>>>Ex.12:15,...Cut off from Israel? ....Michael

Sandy

04-08-2001, 08:29 PM

You are welcome, Thummim.

Here is what one Jewish person had to say concerning the New Testament and Pesach.

Part one

1 Nisan
Rashi explains that on this date, Rosh Chodesh, B'nei Yisroel was given the instructions by Moshe for taking the Karbon Pesach {sacrificial lamb} on the tenth of Nisan. The lamb was a deity of the people of Mitzriam. The lamb was tied to the bedpost until it was offered as the karbon.

Torah states, "Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month {Nisan} they shall take every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for a house" {Exodus 12:3}

10 Nisan
The tenth of Nisan in the year 2448 fell on Shabbos. That is why the Shabbos immediately before Pesach begins is termed Shabbos HaGadol, "The Great Shabbos." On Shabbos HaGadol a special Haftorah portion is read, Malachi 3:4-24.

The Torah continues, "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year; you shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats; And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

14 Nisan
The term used for "in the evening" is Bayn, {meaning between or divided between} Haw Ahr Baw Yim {meaning evening or evening prayers}. So one may ask, When does evening begin? Morning is the first half of the day. Morning is from sunrise until midday. Evening is the second half of the day. Evening is from midday until sunset. Midday or noon is the exact time between morning and evening. IT IS NOT TWELVE NOON!

Hebrew days are divided into twelve hours. This year in the US the first day of summer is June 21st and is our longest day, fifteen. However a Biblical day is only twelve hours. To understand the length of a Biblical hour we divide 15 hours {900 minutes} by 12 Hebrew hours. A Biblical hour on the first day of summer is 1 1/4 hours or 75 minutes long. The first half of the day (depending on where you live) is from 5:31 am to 1:01 pm. The second half of the day is from 1:01 pm to 8:31 pm.

Now compare the shortest day of the year, which is December 22nd this year, and is the first day of winter here in the US. Sunrise (again it depends on where you live) is at 7:18 am and sunset is at 4:18 pm. The first day of winter is just 9 hours and 20 minutes long. However the Biblical day for the first day of winter is still twelve hours. To understand the length of a Biblical hour we divide 9 hours and 20 minutes {560 minutes} by 12 Hebrew hours. A Biblical hour on December 22nd is apx. 46.66 minutes long. The first half of the day is from 7:18 am to 11:58 am. The second half of the day is from 11:58 pm to 4:38 pm.

For example:
In the year 5760 in Yerushalyim the Karbon Pesach could be sacrificed between the American hours of apx. 12:35 pm and 7:11 pm.

The time is extremely important because ALL CHOMETZ {leavened bread} had to be removed removed before the sixth hour on the fourteenth of Nisan. It was forbidden to offer the Karbon Pesach before all chometz had been removed!

Hashem said, "Do not offer the blood of my sacrifice {the Karbon Pesach} with leaven {bread present}. Exodus 34:25

Now there is a point to all of this especially for the Christians / Messianics.
1. The sacrifice, the Karbon Pesach, is a male lamb or a male goat. IT IS NOT A HUMAN! Even symbolically speaking it would be wrong to suggest a human as an offering.

2. The Karbon Pesach had to be "a male of the first year". Jesus again does not qualify.

3. The Karbon Pesach had to be "without blemish". Jesus again did not qualify. According to the New Testament, he was beaten, pierced and injured.

4. The Karbon Pesach had to be offered before the conclusion of the twelfth hour of daylight. After the conclusion of the twelfth hour of daylight the twelve hours of night began. Then it was too late to offer the Karbon Pesach. The death of Jesus was well after that time on the 15th of Nisan, late in the afternoon after the ninth hour. {Matthew 27:46:50}.

5. The Karbon Pesach was offered on the Temple courtyard grounds. Again Jesus does not qualify. He died according to the New Testament at Golgotha. {Matthew 27:33}.

Sandy

04-08-2001, 08:33 PM

Part two

The New Testament states, "Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to him, Where do you want us to prepare to eat the passover? Matthew 26:19

This should have been well before the sixth hour. Holy people begin weeks in advance preparing for Pesach. To wait until hours before all chometz was forbidden before even asking the question, "Where do you want us to prepare to eat the passover?" should be of extreme concern for anyone who makes claims to Jesus' absolute perfection and righteousness.

In addition, no mention is made as to obtaining a lamb or goat on the tenth of Nisan as required by the Torah.

The New Testament states, "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said to him. Where do you want us to prepare that you may eat the passover?" Mark 14:12

The New Testament states, "Then the day of unleavened bread came when the passover must be killed. He {Jesus} sent Peter and John, saying, 'Go prepare us the passover that we may eat.'

and they said to him, "Where do you want us to prepare it?"

Matthew, Mark and Luke all clearly state that Jesus' disciples went to prepare the Passover meal. They each also state:

Matthew, "When the {that} evening was come...

Mark, "And when the {that} evening was come he {Jesus} came with the twelve and they sat down and did eat..."

Luke, "And they went, and found as he had said to them and made the passover ready. And when the hour was come {after dark and after evening prayers} he sat down with the twelve..."

Matthew, Mark and Luke each state that Jesus sat down to eat the Passover meal. HOWEVER John contradicts their record.

John says, "Now before the feast of passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father...and supper being ended the devil having now put into Judas Iscariot, Simon's son to betray him..." John 13:1,2

Matthew, Mark and Luke state Jesus sat down to eat his Passover meal but we have John stating it was "BEFORE THE FEAST OF PASSOVER."

Remember one cannot begin the Passover meal until after dark, until after kiddish {blessing on the wine and the matzoh}.

Next we notice that "AS THEY WERE EATING" {the Passover meal} Jesus took leavened, forbidden bread, bread that represented sin, bread that G-d said Jews were forbidden to eat or even posses in their home during Pesach!

Next we notice that they were already "EATING" before kiddish, before the wine was first blessed, before the matzoh was blessed following the wine

Next we notice the seder order is backwards. Jesus blessed the bread before the wine.

Dear reader, these types of problems are generally unknown to most Christians/Messianics because they do not truly understand the Torah or the correct process of the Pesach seder. They haven't consider that Jesus took leavened bread instead of matzoh. They don't know that one does not begin the Pesach meal without first saying kiddush. They do not know that the blessing is first said on the wine and then on the matzoh?

What these contradictions to the Torah show is that either the writers did not know the most basic precepts of Torah or they openly violated the very concept of Pesach.

The New Testament violates Torah! It teaches errors! It corrupts the very meaning of Pesach! It contradicts itself!

Later during the Pesach according to John, "He {Jesus} arose from supper, and laid aside his garments and took a towel and girded himself and poured water into a basin and began to WASH THE DISCIPLES feet, and to wipe them with the towel..." John 13:3,4

This sin is so obvious to observant Jews and should be a clear sign like the other aforementioned problems that Jesus and his disciples were NOT TORAH OBSERVANT.

Later that evening, after the seder meal, Mark states that "Jesus and his disciples went out to the Mount of Olives." Matthew 26:30 While there "Judas one of the twelve, came with a great multitude with swords and with staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people." Matthew 26:47 Mark 14, 26, 43; Luke 22:39, 47.

John adds to this description, "Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came with lanterns and torches and weapons." John 18:3

Have we lost sight of the fact that this is Pesach? This is the night of the first seder! It is on this night that we are commanded to remember at our Pesach table what happened in Mitzriam. The Chief Priest {SINGULAR, there is only one Kohen Godal, not two} had his own very serious areas of responsibilities to perform and prepare for, PLUS the mitzvah of Pesach. To suggest that this most holy man had the desire and the time to plan, arrest, convene a court on Yom Tov, call witnesses and convict a man is so unbelievably ludicrous, it is beyond imagination!!

Not only are we talking about work on the Yom Tov, which is forbidden, we are talking about disrupting the Pesach Seder of the holiest men of Kal Yisroel and many other Yidden. The New Testament totally lacks credibility in making such claims. The Kohen Godal is not going to disrupt his Pesach seder with his family. He is NOT going to disrupt the Pesach seder of the men sitting on the Bais Din, he is NOT going to work or require men to work on a day on which work is forbidden! He is not going to be the source of such false accusations as written in the New Testament!

Christians/Messianics who do not understand the Torah cannot and will not see how utterly false and utterly impossible these claims of the New Testament are.

The New Testament records, "When the morning was come, {15 Nisan} all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death." Matthew 27:1

How can one be in the Bais HaMikdosh {the Holy Temple} in morning prayers that last for hours and at the same time be consorting to kill another Jew? Have we forgotten that every Jewish male is required to appear before Hashem on three separate occasions each year? Pesach is one of these times!

Just consider what the New Testament is claiming here.

In Yerushalyim at this time of year sunrise is about 6:04 am which is the time for morning prayers. Sunset is about 7:11 pm that means the time for morning prayers must conclude well in advance of 12:35 pm. In other words, even though the time between 6:04 am and 12:35 pm is the first half of the day, the first six hours, 12:35 is NOT actually morning. Essentially after three Biblical hours have passed it cannot be considered morning any longer. Then it is midday.

The point is that on Pesach with Shacharis and Mussaf prayers and offerings in the Bais HaMikdosh, time is a factor. One must consider that most everyone has not slept the previous night, that the Pesach seder lasted most of the night if not all of the night. One must consider the holiness of the day of Pesach. When one considers these factors it is unrealistic to state that anyone, let alone the Kohen Godal, had time to take counsel against Jesus. It is unreasonable!

Another point where time was a serious factor was when Jesus died after the ninth hour on Erev Shabbos. Joseph, who is credited with removing Jesus' body, would have only around 3 hours and 20 minutes to journey from the death site to Pilate; obtain permission from Pilate to receive Jesus' body; make arrangements for a burial place; remove the body to that place; wash, wrap and prepare; then visit a mikveh in accordance with the laws of uncleanness. When taking into account the distances back and forth, short delays in obtaining permission, etc., 3 hours and twenty minutes is not feasible. Matthew 27:57-59; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56.

Now in Matthew, Mark and Luke, the day of Jesus' death was called the preparation day which is from Thursday night until Shabbos begins. John on the other hand indicates that the "Sabbath was an high day" that Shabbos and Pesach fell on the same day. John 19:31

This points out many incorrect reports surrounding Jesus' Passover meal, arrest, conviction and death. It does not require a great education to understand many of these VERY BASIC problems, just simple and careful research. It is clear that the New Testament makes many unsupported claims.

Thummim

04-08-2001, 11:17 PM

Sandy, In anger, I've twice ripped the NT out of bibles that I was studying. My nephew has done the same thing in front of his {former} wife. The more JEWish one becomes, the more insulting the NT also becomes. To my way of thinking, the christians do to the JEWish soul, what the nazi's did to the JEWish body. Then too, I doubt that the holocaust would have happened if christianity hadn't made an innocent people, it's JEWs! Bringing the truth out into the open, so that christians can see how anti-JEWish the NT is, doesn't get past the anti-JEWish bias of christianity. It takes a good name to resist the assault. Still, the truth is the best weapon, after a good name. The new testement passover in no way resembles a pesach seder. Where is the hagadah? where is the "telling", when do we get to the story of the exodus? ....Michael

Stranger

04-09-2001, 06:56 AM

Shalom Sandy and Thummim,

Sandy, that is a very interesting post. I am not sure if it is really known that Jesus' Pessach Seder is NOT celebrated IN A FAMILY setting as commanded in HaTorah so that the children will learn, and so on. Jesus celebrated the Pessach Seder alone with his gang of talmudim. So none of them were actually HaTorah observant. All this in itself is an outright disobedience to HaTorah by all of them. Although I don't believe that the Christians care because they say that Jesus came to destroy the Law or to put an end to it. Paul says that Jesus nailed the Law to the "cross." so it no longer has any effect on anyone. They don't realize that while Jesus was still alive he was breaking the Law right and left. The Sanhedrin would have had many LAWFUL reasons for killing Jesus other than the ones that the Christians came up with in the NT. The NT was written the way Christianity ought to be.

Colossians 2:13 (NIV) When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 

The Christians are totally ignorant of HaTorah. There are thousands of Bible institutes all over the world teaching "the whole Bible," but they teach it the way Christianity thinks it ought to be. They are making the rules as they play the game. That is why there are so many different Christian denominations diametrically opposed to each other. I remember one rabbi saying that Christianity uses the Tanakh the way a drunkard uses a light pole for support and not necessarily for illumination.

I wonder whatever happened to Eliyah, Angel #7, The Old Shep, and other die hard Christians who are always accusing me of lying. I assume that they must be burying their heads into the ground. They don't show any love for the truth. It seems that they were run over by the truth and gave up the fight. Their silence is deafening!

By the way, I still believe that there was a historical Jesus, but the Gospels were written many years after the facts and hardly anybody remembers anything of what the historical Jesus did or said. I believe that he was probably a HaTorah observant Jew but that his real life and deeds were grossly exaggerated and distorted in the process of inventing Christianity. Paul himself says that anything he knows about Jesus he learned by himself in trances, visions, dreams, revelations, and other spooky experiences. Paul never ever quoted Jesus' real life sayings. Paul despised anything that he could possibly learn from Jesus' disciples. So I can't really judge the historical Jesus, I only judge the phony one invented by the Christians.

Galatians 2:6 (NIV) As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message. 

Above all, it was Paul who invented the "Lord's Supper" (i.e. to sup on "The LORD"). Paul incorporated the "Lord's Supper" in a cannibalistic setting. The "gospels" were written 30 to 50 years after Paul wrote his first letter. Paul's first letter was written about 30 years after Jesus' death. So the "gospel" writers had to stuff Paul's version of the "Lord's Supper" the way we read it today. The Jews had to be blamed for everything, too. The Christians are totally HaTorah ignorant so it is no surprise that since the early 1500s they dogmatically accept anything written in the NT as "divinely inspired" without any question. Actually they are not allowed to question anything. My question is, will the truth have any effect on them? Are we living at the dawn of a new era?

Zechariah 8:19-23 * This is what Yahweh Almighty says: "The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Yahudah. Therefore love truth and peace."
20 This is what Yahweh Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, `Let us go at once to entreat Yahweh and seek Yahweh Almighty. I myself am going.'
22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek Yahweh Almighty and to entreat him."
23 This is what Yahweh Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, `Let us go with you, because we have heard that Elohim is with you.'"

Thummim

04-09-2001, 08:12 AM

Baruch hashem Stranger, the truth had an effect on us, so there has to be hope in the truth. Loving the JEWish peoples is what had the greatest effect on me, though. I realized that those I loved were being assaulted and I quickly turned to defend them from the assault. I imagine that it was simular for you. We tend to protect those whom we love, with vigor. The ovens of the holocaust burned me and left me choking on thick dark clouds. I'm covered with ashes. ....Michael

Spying

04-10-2001, 07:01 AM

Hi Everyone,

My love for Adonai Yahushua has had the greatest effect on me. I first began to seek after him, unknowingly at the time, while I was in training to become a Lutheran minister. I was either a junior or senior in college probably sometime in 1967 or 1968. I began to question many things. This questioning resulted in my complete repudiation of the Jesus as taught by the Lutheran Church. On December 7th, 1977, I did grab hold of the Jew, Messiah Yahushua, and I did die with him through my baptism, making public confession that henceforth HE would be my Adonai. On that day I felt as clean as a new born babe, unleavened. Today, a number of years later, the first day of unleavened bread, I feel dirty, leavened, but this I do know, in his mercy, Messiah has made me a part of himself to cleanse me from all my sin in order that he can live with me for an eternity. So, Messiah, who is unleavened, has suffered leavening (sin) to enter his body through me. I suppose it would be similar to someone deliberately infecting oneself with a disease in order to render the disease and all its effects harmless.

I am eternally grateful to Adonai Yahushua for this mercy and loving kindness towards me, and publicly implore him to continue to purify me and my brothers and sisters until the day in which he will present all of us to himself completely unleavened. Thank you, YAHWEH Yahushua for your suffering and your mercy.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-10-2001, 07:34 AM

Spying, your bending of the truth, to vindicate yourself through (jesus), doesn't play right. It's the truth that sets you free according to your messiah. Don't try to make the sin of eating leavened bread on the sabboth, and feeding it to others, look like righteousness. Right now, I think that you would try to make anything that (jesus) is said to have done, look like righteousness. It isn't {tzaddik}. You may be adding the sin of the author(s), to your messiah. Hasn't it occured to you, that the written account, may be inaccurate? If so, you are adding sin to your messiah. Then again, perhaps your messiah is corrupt. You shouldn't add unrighteousness to him by justifing a sin, which he himself might condemn. Call sin, sin. This call is a simple one, and you know the real answer here. What couldn't you justify in the name of (jesus), when you become willing to slight the truth? The name of (JESUS) has justified much evil in it's history. Christianity does have a history. Too close a look, at this history, is very unpleasent to christians. Trying to cover a sin, only leaves your faith limping. ....Michael

YahChannah

04-10-2001, 06:29 PM

I have placed Sandy's post on the Holeyboard Forum. I feel it has great significance.

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscussion2/

Spying

04-11-2001, 05:53 AM

Hi Thummim,

With all due respects to you, you do not know what you are talking about. If covering sin is indicative of a limping faith, then the faith of YAHWEH is indeed limping:
Ps 32:1-2
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 
2 Blessed is the man unto whom (the) YAHWEH imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. (KJV)

Ps 85:1-2
1 YAHWEH, thou hast been favourable unto thy land: thou hast brought back the captivity of Jacob.
2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah. (KJV)

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-11-2001, 08:17 AM

Iesous is NOT the begotten son of YHUH. That would be a violation of his command of kind with kind.

Mixing of the elohim with human women was the reason that he destroyed the earth with a flood. If that isn't a good enough reason to convince you, is adultery? Mary, the mother of Iesous, was a married woman.

Thummim

04-11-2001, 08:55 AM

…..Spying, you need to read a little deeper into what you are quoting. Ps.32:5, I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said I will confess my transgressions unto YHWH; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. … (than eating leaven on pesach, is not a sin that you can acknowledge?) I will instruct thee and teach thee, in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. Ps.32:8 The Psalmist is instructed, not to eat leaven on the days of pesach. When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: Note,{It is best to call the sin, a sin.} I do not have trouble seeing that there is an assault against the people of YHWH within the pages of the NT. The very verse that you quote, Ps.85:2, gives this people the vindication that christianity denies them. A messiah that teaches his people sin, by his example, makes a poor teacher of YHWH’s ways. You want to put the JEWish people on another path, which YHWH has warned them not to take. It is this assault upon the JEWish people that has my concern. Circle the term, “the JEWs” as it occurs within the gospel of John and in the following book of Acts. You will see that the authors observe the JEWish people, with bias. The NT is not an attempt to vindicate JEWs, but rather to condemn them. We like to point out, that the accusers are no more righteous, then those that they are accusing. The truth is on our side. If we make any errors, we will acknowledge them. Fighting against the truth is not a battle that we want to be a part of. Also, it needs to be noted, that it is YHWH, that covers sin. It is not (jesus) that does so. He can use some covering himself. He has created a faith that is responsible for bringing great suffering to the “redeemed” people. Acknowledge that YHWH’s people are a redeemed people. Christians have a hard time granting salvation to the people, to whom it belongs. The JEWish people have found a few friends who will defend them, still, christianity is the crushing stone, that lays heavy, upon their name. Without christianity making the JEWish people, their JEWs, this people would have found their salvation a long time ago. …. Michael

Spying

04-14-2001, 07:20 AM

Hi Thummim,

You are no different in your approach and assessment of the activity of Messiah than Yahushua's Jewish brethren two thousand years ago:
John 5:14-18
14 Afterward Yahushua findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Yahushua, which had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Yahushua, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 But Yahushua answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that ELOHIM was his Father, making himself equal with ELOHIM. (KJV)The reason why you, Thummim, Sandy, and others have a problem with Messiah breaking the Sabbath, or, for that matter, eating leavening with the Passover (I am not admitting here that Messiah did do so), is because you are totally ignorant of the spiritual work of Messiah.

Obviously, Messiah himself was a Jew; therefore, he himself was under the Law and, accordingly, was required to be in submission to the Law. Messiah at the same time was engaged in a secret work which on occasion brought Messiah into conflict with the physical keeping of the Law. This secret work is the spiritual fulfillment of the Law. I know that Sandy would like for me to define "spiritual fulfillment" for her, but I would prefer in this context to relate to you an example of spiritual fulfillment.

Christians believe that Messiah was a priest. Now, it is obvious to all that Messiah is not a physical priest. He is of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. So, on the one hand, we can say that the Christians are quite wrong unless a priesthood exists apart from Levi. On the other hand, if a secret priesthood exists, then Levi is diminished in importance, and all of Judaism is called into question, are they not? So, this is an important issue, whether or not there exists another side or dimension to the fulfillment of the Law.

Now, Messiah himself admits above that he is engaged in a work. This work is not just any old work. It is also the work of the Father. Messiah learned of this work through watching his Father work. We all know how that comes about. We were all at one time also children who watched our physical fathers work, and we learned by their example.

If Messiah is a priest engaged in a priestly work, then ELOHIM is also a priest engaged in a priestly work. Has ELOHIM ever healed anyone of their diseases? Has ELOHIM ever refused to make someone whole on the Sabbath? If you were sick, would you yourself refuse to be healed on the Sabbath? No, healing is very important work to those less than whole, and healing was a very important work to Messiah because Messiah was not just any old priest. Messiah was the spiritual High Priest of YAHWEH.

Look at what the Law requires concerning the High Priest:
Lev 21:17-24
17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his ELOHIM. 
18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of (the) YAHWEH made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his ELOHIM.
22 He shall eat the bread of his ELOHIM, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I (the) YAHWEH do sanctify them.
24 And Moses told it unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel. (KJV)Whenever Messiah found anyone who believed in him ("This is the work of ELOHIM, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."), Messiah automatically identified with them. He saw them as himself. If Messiah is the High Priest, then he could not enter into the spiritual holy place blemished. The rules, the Law, required him to therefore heal all who came to him in belief. I am thankful for this priesthood and this work.

So, if, indeed, Messiah's work, operating as a spiritual High Priest, led to the physical healing of many, only those not familiar with his work would stand back and condemn it as did the Jews. Now, you, Thummim, you Sandy, you Stranger, are doing the same today because you have no insight into Messiah's work. By your condemnation of Messiah, you are indeed proving your kinship with the Jews.

Now, I at this point, do not know whether or not Messiah had unleavened bread present at the Passover two thousand years ago. If he did, he had a good reason for doing so. He was engaged in a spiritual work that sometimes brought him into conflict with the physical keeping of the Law.

Have a good Sabbath!

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-14-2001, 09:44 AM

Hello Spying
You wrote:
Obviously, Messiah himself was a Jew; therefore, he himself was under the Law and, accordingly, was required to be in submission to the Law. Messiah at the same time was engaged in a secret work which on occasion brought Messiah into conflict with the physical keeping of the Law. This secret work is the spiritual fulfillment of the Law This statement is a complete contradiction. If you are to keep the Torah physically your are to also keep the Torah spiritually. If those of the spiritual world that you speak of do not abide by Torah then your spiritual world is no different from the physical world.

You actually want us to believe it is okay to purposely break the commands and/or Torah of YHUH spiritually, but not physically.

YahChannah

04-14-2001, 09:53 AM

Spying,
I think that if YahuShua had leavened bread on Pesach, he broke the ordinance. I think that if he broke covenant in any way, then he was not THE MESSIAH, he was then perhaps a messiah as many before him had been.

As far as seeing 'how the Father did things' and doing so himself, that does no necessarily mean that he lived in 'heaven' with his Father. Nor does it mean he was the creator. You can read, or have revealed to you how the Father does things and you can do likewise.

The Father shows wisdom, mercy, justice, understanding, love, kindness etc and we should do likewise.

Who are we to say, oh well, so YahuShua did not keep the law perfectly (though I believe he was Torah observant) or that he was not 'God' or that he did not fulfill the prophecies... we still will proclaim him HaMashiyach.

Someone will come to fully establish YHWH's kingdom on this earth..that I believe totally but for me it does not have to be one of the previously 'anointed ones'.

I am willing to leave that up to YHWH, however He wants to do it is fine with me.

Sis YahChannah
http://qumran.com

Thummim

04-15-2001, 11:55 AM

…Spying, your devotion to (jesus) is to be commended. I want to thank you for the complement, “You are indeed proving your kinship with the JEWs”. I always hope to make this point obvious. I cannot leave the JEWish peoples out of the equation that relates to their own redemption, as so many christians do. I read again and again, where YHWH promises his people redemption from their enemies and from their sins within the tanakh’s many pages, that it seems to me, that this point would become apparent to christians. Christians are not meant to be top of the totem pole. How few accounts there are, of gentile salvation, within the pages of the tanakh. I acknowledge that YHWH is Eloheem of all, of this world, but I am not convinced, that he made plans for the salvation of the worlds peoples, to the hurt of his own. How christians, somehow manage to convince themselves, that they are allowed to displace the JEWish people (through the time of the gentiles), seems symptomatic of the shortcomings of the christian faith, to me. If only christianity, had shown devotion to the JEWish people, instead of making this people it’s JEWs. The JEWs, the JEWs, the JEWs, This relationship between christians and JEWs, cannot be healed. The tanakh belongs to the JEWish people. They wrote it for themselves. It was their attempt to explain their world in contrast to their faith in their own Eloheem. The world had it’s own gods to worship. The JEWish people put great emphasis upon being righteous. This was a quality they gave to their own Eloheem. Which other gods doted upon righteousness, as did YHWH? You seem to have a picture in your mind of YHWH sitting down in his chair and writing the tanakh. Give some credit to the people who really wrote the book. And why you’re at it, couldn’t you also give them a little of their own salvation? They didn’t write the tanakh to save the world, they wrote it to save themselves from unrighteousness so they would be more exceptable to their own Eloheem. They didn’t exclude themselves.
Are mitzvot, the will of YHWH? If we make mitzvot of no effect, what then is YHWH’s will, that we can be compliant and keep it? We could kill a christian and hang him on a billboard or something similar, to displace the laws in America, but if we did, what would become of us? Lawlessness would devour us, no doubt. Let’s be slow to make law of no effect. Even so, it is not because (jesus) failed at law, that he isn’t my messiah, but rather, because he isn’t the redeemer of his own people. Redemption is the job that a redeemer must perform, if he wants the title, of “redeemer” to be his. (jesus) as messiah of his people, has shown himself incompetent. The messiah is not to come and oppress his people with a new faith. He is to make the law, honorable. Isa.42:21
As to setting a priest down upon the throne of David, I wrote a post on this subject. Jeremiah forces this arrangement in Jer.33:17,18. “For thus saith YHWH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. Since there is no one to sit upon the throne of David since the last king on his throne,(Jehoiachin 2Chr.:9,10), YHWH must sit himself down upon it, to keep himself and the prophet from being made liars. He than must sit down in the name of Yahudah, if he is to occupy Davids throne. {1Chr.28:4 – Gen.49:10} It is the tribe of Yahudah that owns this throne. Only in occupying the name of Yahudah, can the throne of David be filled. Yet the promise concerns the office of priest, also. If you read Ezra 2:63 and Neh. 7:65, you will see that a verse was inserted into both of these books. It’s the very same verse. There seems to be no priest with Urim and Thummim. So, let’s not eat of the holy things until such a priest comes, is their conclusion. Deut.33:8, “And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah. So whoever sits upon the throne of David, does so, as priest and king, and thus as a priest like Melchizedek. Given the situation, that both positions would be empty if YHWH did not fill these vacancies, I say that YHWH is occuping the name of YHWDH. {Yahudah Elohenu}, I like the sound of that. There are so many ways to arrive at this conclusion, and I have shared many of the ones that I know. Yet I’m convinced that there are others to be found by those more capable than I. Still, how would christianity take to a GD, whose name is {JEW}? Those who won’t concede salvation to JEWs, might find that they then, aren’t given any salvation either. Do the people of YHWH really bear his name? He says they do. “And all the people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of YHWH; and they shall be afraid of thee. Deut.28:10” “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2Chr.7:14” Jeremiah also claims that his people bear the name of their Eloheem. “Why shouldest thou be as a man astonied, as a mighty man that cannot save? Yet thou, YHWH, art in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not. Jer.14:9”. How else would you make the tribe of Yahudah, nation of priests? If the people are as the angel of YHWH, in that the name of YHWH is upon them, then they also could be thought of as a nation of priests. Ex.23:21 Can a people be redeemed by name? “YHWH hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the Eloheem of Jacob defend thee; Send thee help from the santuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion Ps.20:1,2” “Save me, my Eloheem, by thy name, and judge me (deliver me) by thy strength. Ps.54:1”. Will YHWH return, unless first he reveals his name? Isa.52:6 seems to indicate a connection to the name of YHWH and the presence of the messiah. I think that there is a name to learn that will redeem all the tribe of Yahudah. As to the family of Ephraim, the world swallowed them up. The house of Yahudah is here, because the world and christianity wouldn’t allow the JEWs to be absorbed into it, most likely, do to the tenacity with which they cling to their tanakh. It flavors the JEWish people in a flavor that the world seems unwilling to swallow. You, no doubt, think of the JEWish people as a race of people, or how could you accuse them so easily? If you set a large group of JEWs next to a large group of Americans, you would not be able to separate them by appearances. You would only have their name and traditions to separate them by. If you accuse them by traditions, you make them guilty for clinging to their tanakh. If you accuse them by image, you are accusing yourself. If you accuse them by name, you are accusing them by the name of their Eloheem. How than do you hold this people guilty of anything? This is christianities great sin. Did you know that it is easier to prove the JEWish people innocent by the tanakh, than it is to make them guilty by it? Allow the name of their Eloheem to prove them all righteous. I confess, I love being kin to the JEWish peoples. I pray for this always. A little bit of their righteousness, only does me good.

…Spying, I’m beginning to wish that there were other christians out there to help you sustain your arguments. I don’t want you to think that you have somehow become my adversary, because I dislike the doctrines of christianity, so very much. I like you a lot and look forward to your posts, perhaps more than any other. I so appreciate your forum and your way of encouraging open discussion on it. Friendships are made this way. Still, I think that we are destined to end up in different heavens. Baruch hashem, ….Michael

Spying

04-17-2001, 06:40 AM

Hi Sandy,

It is not your fault that you see contradiction. You see contradiction because you have not been given insight into the spiritual fulfillment of the Law. I will explain my point again. The Law requires basically that the High Priest be whole. Messiah saw himself as the spiritual High Priest. This ministry is a community of believers. Messiah considers all who believe in him to be one with himself. Therefore, during his sojourn on this earth, whenever he encountered a believer, if they had an illness or a deformity, or a weakness, Messiah did heal them all in order to spiritually fulfill the Law which commands that the High Priest be whole.

Now, it is not a contradiction that this duty would occur throughout his ministry. Messiah had to heal all those he encountered even on the Sabbath Day if they believed in him. However, while there exists no contradiction, there does exist conflict between the physical keeping of the Law which requires that no work be performed on the Sabbath Day and the clear duty of Messiah to make sure that the spiritual High Priest be whole. Messiah had to make a choice here.

Whenever you see this type of conflict in Messiah's life or in the history of the Apostolic Assembly (Acts 15), the spiritual fulfillment of the Law or Prophets takes precedence over the physical keeping of the Law.

So, I do want you to believe that it is ok to break the physical keeping of the Law whenever it conflicts with the spiritual keeping of the Law. However, it can be very wrong in some circumstances to refuse to spiritually fulfil the Law. That is the sin against the spirit.

Sincerely, Spying

Spying

04-17-2001, 07:25 AM

Hi Sis,

Welcome to the Lo Ammi Forum! Please, forgive my neglect of you. I want everyone to know the respect and fondness that I hold in my heart for you and Qumran Bet. This lady has come to my aid on a number of occasions, and I am thankful to YAHWEH for her life and work. I would encourage everyone to visit the forums of Qumran Bet.

You are absolutely correct about the relationship between Messiah and his Heavenly Father. Messiah was not in heaven as he learned about the things concerning his Heavenly Father. Messiah was here on the earth:
Luke 2:46
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (KJV)Messiah learned the same way we learn both by asking questions and by mimicking what we see being accomplished. To learn from our Heavenly Father, one must observe him working. This insight is a gift we receive through the spirit of Messiah Yahushua.

I believe that Messiah is now YAHWEH. Messiah is only a son in the sense that he is the rebirth of a buried YAHWEH. Messiah is the exact replication of YAHWEH, and there is no life or savior outside of him. So, there is no Messiah apart from Messiah Yahushua. Any Messiah apart from Yahushua is a false messiah.

Sincerely Spying

YahChannah

04-17-2001, 07:26 AM

Spying, You said, "Now, it is not a contradiction that this duty would occur throughout his ministry. Messiah had to heal all those he encountered even on the Sabbath Day if they believed in him. However, while there exists no contradiction, there does exist conflict between the physical keeping of the Law which requires that no work be performed on the Sabbath Day and the clear duty of Messiah to make sure that the spiritual High Priest be whole. Messiah had to make a choice here. "

This brings up a couple of questions to mind. If YahuShua is the Mashiyach and if he was/is required to heal all who believe on him (Sabbath day or not) then it should follow that there are no 'believing' Christians who are not healed. Are all Christians healed? If we find a man who proclaims faith in YahuShua and he is infirm in any way...does it mean he does not have faith?

The other question is: "Do any of YHWH's children have the right to pick and choose between YHWH's regulations? Did YahuShua have the right to disobey YHWH's Sabbath commands?"

Thank you, in advance for your measured and considered answer.

:) Sis YahChannah
http://qumran.com

Sandy

04-17-2001, 08:19 AM

Hello Spying
Your wrote:
You see contradiction because you have not been given insight into the spiritual fulfillment of the Law. I will explain my point again. The Law requires basically that the High Priest be whole. Messiah saw himself as the spiritual High Priest. This ministry is a community of believers. Messiah considers all who believe in him to be one with himself. Therefore, during his sojourn on this earth, whenever he encountered a believer, if they had an illness or a deformity, or a weakness, Messiah did heal them all in order to spiritually fulfill the Law which commands that the High Priest be whole.
Where in the Greek Scriptures (New Testament) does Iesous referr to himself as or say he is the high priest or spiritual high priest?

Tell me Spying, do you believe Benny Hinn to be a servant of the Messiah of YHUH?

What about people of other faiths that are healed within those faiths, which have nothing to do with Iesous or the messiah of the New Testament?

What about people who have been healed totally outside the perimeters of the Bible?

Spying

04-17-2001, 08:45 AM

Hi Sis,

Good morning to you. Looks like I pressed the submit button seconds before you did!

You have asked a very good question. It is the exact question that I was contemplating as I made my post to Sandy. Whenever I write, I am always anticipating the arguments that I am going to receive in response, and I am always questioning in my own mind those questions which I might receive in reply which I cannot answer. You question is such a question. I love it. Notice that I inserted the phrase "during his sojourn on this earth". I inserted that phrase to give me a way out of answering your question, but I am not going to use that way out here.

If I am correct, then it should follow that all today who believe in Messiah should receive physical healing. When I look around, that is not the case, so Spying must be wrong. I do admit that I could be wrong, but I don't think so! Give me time to ask my Heavenly Father about your very good question.

Concerning your second question: Yes, Sis, we can and we must if we find that the spiritual fulfillment of the Law is being hindered by the physical fulfillment. I know that Qumran Bet kills and roasts a physical lamb at Passover. I have told you before that this action is contrary to the physical demands of the Torah. Under the Law, you cannot kill a lamb in Arkansas. However, it is ok to do so if you are considering the spiritual fulfillment of the Torah. We are required to preach the Gospel by the Law itself. I can see where killing a lamb in Arkansas could be of value in preaching the Gospel, and therefore, I make no condemnation of your transgression of the physical Law.

Have a good day, Sis!

Sincerely, Spying

YahChannah

04-17-2001, 09:09 AM

Shalom Spying and thank you. I will gladly wait until YHWH answers 'our' question for that is the only answer we want anyway. As long as it is His truth we seek, we are assured we will find Him when we search for Him with all our being.:)

Spying

04-24-2001, 06:48 AM

Hi Sandy,

Messiah did not openly declared the secrets of YAHWEH ELOHIM to the people. Privately, Messiah was more open with his disciples. He did declare many things to them, but even with his disciples, Messiah kept secret the details of his mission until after his resurrection:
Luke 24:44-46
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: (KJV)Now, Sandy, you were not at that meeting so you also do not know any of this secret information divulged by Messiah to his disciples. If you had been at that meeting, you would have heard Messiah speak about himself being the spiritual High Priest. These things are foreign to you as they are foreign to the world. When I speak of the world here, I am speaking of traditional Christianity and also Judaism. They have no understanding of these issues because it has not been revealed to them. That the information did exist two thousand years ago, you cannot deny. However, this information is private. It is only meant to go to certain people. So, you will not find any written record of Messiah stating that he was the spiritual High Priest of YAHWEH ELOHIM. You also will not find any written explanation that has come down through the centuries detailing how Messiah Yahushua new that he was going to be raised from the dead on the third day. There is a very simple reason for that. Should Messiah open you mind to see these things, and that is my dream for you, then you will most assuredly know who is your Savior. So, these things remain hidden from you understanding until Messiah desires that you know. Should Messiah open your mind, then you will surely know who has opened your mind. Until then, you will see nothing.

Sincerely, Spying

YahChannah

04-24-2001, 07:29 AM

Spying,
While I agree with your basic statement that YahuShua revealed things to his disciples that he did not reveal to the general public. The reason I agree with this is simply because that is how we also do. We do not reveal the secret things of our hearts to just anyone, only to our confidants.

Having said all the, here comes the 'but'...:(

You said to Sandy, " If you had been at that meeting, you would have heard Messiah speak about himself being the spiritual High Priest. "

Well true Sandy was not there but neither was I nor were you.

Therefore we have no way of knowing what we would have heard YahuShua say. We can assume, but that is trouble.

Love in the Name of the Father,
Sis YahChannah

Sandy

04-24-2001, 09:07 AM

Hosea 6
1) Come and let us (Israel) turn back to YHUH.
For he has torn, but he will heal us.
He has stricken, but he will bind us up.
2) After two days he will make us live.
In the third day he will lift us up and we will live before him. It is Israel that is stricken and raised up on the third day.

The Greek Scripture (NT) writers plagiarized this prophecy from the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) and have misused and misrepresented it, just as they have done with countless other Scriptures.

Spying

05-01-2001, 04:03 AM

Hi Sis,

I hope that this new week finds you well. Yes, I also was not at Messiah's bible study; however, if I am aware of some of the things that were discussed at that study, why would you deem that to be trouble for yourself? Messiah prophesied concerning the work of his spirit:
John 16:14-15
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (KJV)You know full well that I believe that Messiah is again pouring out his spirit upon his flesh. This world is his flesh. Men and women are seeing and discussing things in the scriptures that haven't been understood and discussed in almost two thousand years. Messiah is in charge of this process. It is his sprinkling. It is his rain. All I have basically been doing up till now, is soaking it up like a sponge. I cannot imagine a greater time to be alive.

If all of mankind died in Messiah, and believe me, this world did die in him, then collective humanity forms the body of Messiah. You and I and many others are cells in his body that are beginning to activate through the spirit of Messiah. Messiah has been resting, setting at the right hand of YAHWEH, inactive for quite awhile. Now, his body is awakening as if out of a sleep. Messiah is beginning to stretch. Everything is happening right on time, after two days, exactly when it should happen. A body is made for work so all of us are beginning to think about working. I know that a work has begun in me. Messiah has been purifying me from all my sins. It is now the third day.

I know, it does not seem like we all will ever be able to come together and be of the same mind, but don't worry: The head is in charge of his body. At some point Messiah will put us all on the same page through a lifting up. As this occurs, this world is going to find a great number of things troubling.

Sincerely, Spying

YahChannah

05-01-2001, 05:35 PM

Spying :)
You said, "You know full well that I believe that Messiah is again pouring out his spirit upon his flesh. This world is his flesh. Men and women are seeing and discussing things in the scriptures that haven't been understood and discussed in almost two thousand years. "

I so much agree that the Ruach, the same Ruach that guided YahuShua is being poured out on YHWH's children. I am seeing eyes opened, Spying but I still see far too many closed tight with the glue of christainity.

We must not go along presuming to have 20/20 vision only to realize too late that we are blind.

I am so thankful YHWH is in charge. I could not stand the stress:p

Love in YHWH,
Sis YahChannah

YahChannah

05-01-2001, 05:43 PM

I forgot, I have a URL that I want you to go read speaking of Ruach dealing with us. Please read this...

qumran.com/ShiningaLightintheDarkness/pourforth.htm

This will have to be cut and pasted probably since it is too long for the page and is truncated but take the trouble

Sis Y

Spying

05-08-2001, 05:31 AM

Hi Sandy,

As a sophomore in HS, I wrote an essay that heavily plagiarized from a number of different books. My professor searched for and found one of my sources. I didn't think that there was any chance in the world of getting caught. My professor gave me an "A" for the essay that then was marked down to a "F" as punishment for my plagiarism. That experience made a lasting impression on me. You are aware of my posting history both at this forum and at the EliYAH Forum. I do a lot of quoting, and often I will make a comment and then put the scripture that supports my comment in parentheses. It is not my desire to plagiarize, but I have found over the years that I have or that I possess no original ideas. Everything that I know or understand has been given to me so, when I write, I am actually plagiarizing all the time.

Since this is my experience, I suppose that it could be the same for the writers of the New Testament. Even so, I have searched for examples of their plagiarism, and I don't see it as you do. I see instances when Messiah predicted that that he would be killed and then rise again from the dead the third day. Messiah does give credit where credit is due. In Luke Messiah relates:

Luke 18:31-34
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.(KJV)While Messiah does not name his sources at this point, he does let his disciples know that his perspective does come from the scriptures. Notice that Messiah's prediction is very specific (Notice also that Messiah's disciples did not have the slightest idea of what he was talking about). Not only must Messiah rise the third day, but according to other accounts, he must rise after three days:
Mark 8:31
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. (KJV)So, Messiah must rise from the dead after three days but yet on the third day if he is indeed the Prophet. Messiah was not the least bit wishy washy in his prediction of a third day resurrection. We gain insight into his thinking concerning himself when he was challenged by the Jews to give them a sign:
Matt 12:39-40
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (KJV)Here, Messiah is looking at the scriptures in what you yourself would call an allegorical sense. Messiah saw his resurrection in a number of places including Hosea 6:1-2. Personally, I look upon that particular scripture as a prophecy for the restoration of the Church (Body) of Messiah as I have indicated above in my post to Sis. I personally fell that we are all part of a great awakening and work that will turn this world upside down. I think that you feel the same way, but you are looking for everything to unfold in a different fashion than myself because we are not looking at the same scriptures in the same fashion. That's ok, we all have got sleep in our eyes.

Sincerely, Spying

YahChannah

05-08-2001, 06:19 AM

Spying,
What an interesting thing you said, "Notice that Messiah's prediction is very specific (Notice also that Messiah's disciples did not have the slightest idea of what he was talking about)."

Does this tell us that the disciples were not versed in Torah? If we do not know how to read, even a letter from the Almighty is useless gibberish to us. We must also remember that when we read Torah, we are not just reading an interesting story or two from Moses. We must learn to read, not just words but meanings and to read with understanding.

I agree that we are all a part of a much larger work which will take place. I need not look to you:) ..You need not look to me:) but we must both be looking to the Almighty. Only He knows where we fit into the big picture.

I am going to share another URL below.

http://qumran.com/A%20Moment%20in%20Time/thesabbathbox.htm

Sometimes I find these do not work, if this one does not go to:

http://qumran.com

find the link on the home page to "A Moment in Time' click it then go to 'The Sabbath Box'

In HIS love,
Sis YahChannah

Sandy

05-08-2001, 07:26 AM

Spying, you are a true-blue Christian.

Sandy

05-08-2001, 07:31 AM

"Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise." Sam Pascoe, American scholar.

Spying

05-09-2001, 10:24 AM

Hi Sis,

Thank you for the link to the story, "The Sabbath Box". We can think we know a person, but then later we find that we did not know them after all. This is exactly the position that the disciples were in with respect to Messiah. They thought they knew him, but they didn't know him at all. Sandy thinks that she knows me because I fit into her present perception of things, but, you know, she just may be surprised someday!

The disciples were all Jews. They all knew how to read. They had been raised in synagogues. They heard the Torah and Prophets read every Sabbath. When they came of age, they themselves would read. Now, it is evident that they, save perhaps for Paul, were not considered scholars, but they were familiar with the scriptures. The Apostle John was a priest. He was a Sadducee. Now, Paul was a Pharisee. Paul knew the scriptures backwards and forwards. He was a scholar, and he knowing the scriptures had rejected all the claims made concerning Yahushua. Look at John's account of the resurrection (John 20:1-9). John relates his experience upon learning that Messiah's body was no longer in the tomb. John outruns Peter to the tomb, and then all out of breath, he waits for Peter to catch up. Peter enters the tomb first. Then John enters. John sees the burial linens. The head cloth is neatly folded in the position where the head would have rested. The body linen was lying as if the body had just evaporated. They both saw and believed. John knew that a priest was not allowed to sleep in his linen garments. Priests would fold them and place them under their head as a pillow. Why would anyone go to the effort of folding the head cloth? This is not something that just anyone would know to do unless they themselves were also priests. By folding the head cloth, Messiah had left John a very personal and clear message: I HAVE RISEN! John saw, and he believed.

Look at John 20:9:
 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. (KJV)All the disciples knew the scriptures, but there are different ways of knowing the scriptures just like there are different ways of knowing individuals. At the tomb, the Sabbath Box had not yet been opened to John or any of the other disciples. It was opened later that day:
Luke 24:45-46
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:(KJV)So, you are quite right, Sis, we must all look to a resurrected YAHWEH in order to intimately know Messiah!

I have a question: Who is Sarah?

Sincerely, Spying