YAH_BE_PRAISED betrays YAH_IS_SALVATION... [Archive]

Stranger

03-24-2001, 11:27 AM

I am very much bothered by this subject. I believe that one tragic consequence of the anti-Jewish rhetoric of the “gospels” is the name that was picked for the fellow who betrayed Jesus, “Judas.” The name Judas is derived from the Hebrew name “Yahudah.” So if we were to translate the name “Judas” into English it means “Yah(weh) be Praised.” Throughout the Scriptures the names given to persons are known to be extremely appropriate for the function or event that the individual is associated with. Abraham is a good example of it. He was originally called Abram "Exalted Father," but his name was changed to Abraham "Father of a Multitude." Jacob's name means "Take by the Heel" and it was changed to Israel "El Prevails" after another appropriate event in Jacob's life. One of Jacob's sons was appropriately named Yahudah at birth. His name was never changed except when in distorted English transliterations it becomes known as "Judah" "Judas" "Juda" "Jew" "Jude" all stemming from Strong Greek #2455. If "Judah" "Judas" "Juda" "Jude" "Jew" were really translated into English it would have been "Yah(weh) be Praised" (Strong Hebrew #3063). Sadly to say, the truth has no fair chance in our world. The Jews don't like to be so open about "Yah" in the family name because of the respect that we all seem to have for the sacred name, and the Christians are totally ignorant on this subject to be interested at all. In fact, Christians are trained to reject "Judas" (i.e. "Jew") as a despicable name and so they would never name their children "Judas." I don't know any Christian in recent history going by the name of Judas.

So when Jesus is saying that it were better for Judas not to be born, he was in fact saying in Hebrew that it were better for "Yah be Praised" not to be born. Given the importance that is given to names in the Scriptures, Jesus is in essence involving not only the fellow disciple but also the whole ethnic group that goes by that name. Just imagine to say of a person or group of persons by the name of “Yah be Praised” that it would have been better for him/them not to be born. I think that the writers of the “gospels” didn’t know much about the significance of the name Yahudah ("Yah[weh] be Praised") or else they would have picked a different name for the betrayer of the Master. I suspect that they were only interested in making the Jews in general look bad. As it stands now Judas is class as "One of the Twelve" just like Judah is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Both names are the same in Hebrew. Both of them are Yahudah meaning "Yah be Praised."

Mark 14:21 (NIV) “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Mark 14:43 (NIV) Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders. 

Several thoughts come to my mind at this point… From the Christian perspective and according to Jesus it seems that it was and probably still is OK and very helpful to perform abortions on unwanted Jews if we feel that the fetus is going to turn out bad when it grows up. It is better not to let it be alive if it is going to betray the "messiah." When the Christians say that the messiah came to be sacrificed for the world I think that it is awfully unkind of any of them not to be eternally grateful to Judas, and even to Pontius, for the great service that they both rendered to the world. They forfeited their own eternal destiny to make salvation possible for the rest of the world. Christians should never stop singing hymns of praise and gratitude to them. No Christian really stops to think about it! Actually, the whole story of Christian "salvation” doesn't seem to square with real life settings. It is so dysfunctional. I can't get over the fact that the apostles were fattening the lamb for the slaughter sort to speak even without their knowledge. The Christian world should be grateful to them, too. When Jesus is quoted saying, "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him" I wonder where he got that idea from? Somewhere else it is written in the NT…

Matthew 16:21 (NIV) From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

Where did Jesus get the idea that HE MUST to go through all that? And by the way, where is it written that the followers of the messiah will be randomly picked to suffer and die for the master? Are these rules the Christians made up as the game is played, or has it been prophesied somewhere else in the Tanakh? It is so obvious that the sweetest story ever told was made up many years after Jesus death and this is no joke.

Jesus betrayed by “Yah be Praised.” It just doesn’t make sense. If we wish to add the given name of Yah(shua) “Yah is Salvation” we can have the ultimate, “Yah is Salvation” was betrayed by “Yah be Praised.” It just doesn’t make sense. It seems that Christianity came up with a real dud when they wrote the NT. I am personally convinced that in a real life setting Almighty Yahweh would have preserved the sacredness of his name throughout history! I just cannot picture Almighty Yahweh allowing or even predestining anyone by the name of "Yah be Praise" to betray the real HaMassiach that Israel is expecting. Jesus seems to be forcing an unrelated statement in the Psalms to say that "Yah be Praised" (i.e. "Judas") was predestined to betray "Yah is Salvation" (i.e. "Jesus"). In fact, "Yah be Praised" is called a Devil! It just doesn't make any sense. One has to have a ton of blind faith to swallow that. It really takes a lot of faith to believe in Christianity. Almighty Yahweh hates injustice.

John 6:70 (NIV) Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

John 13:18 (NIV) "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: `He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'

It seems to me that Jesus set up a sting operation in which Judas fell as expected. A righteous person would prevent crime by all possible means, but it seems that Jesus was doing all the opposite. He was announcing that he was going to be betrayed all along. It is like looking forward to it. Not only that, but Jesus was the one who sent Judas to betray him and told him to do it quickly. This is not preventing crime in my book. It is fostering and promoting crime.

Leviticus 19:17b * "Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt."

John 13:18 * "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: `He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'
19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He.
20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."
21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."
22 His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant.
23 One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.
24 Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."
25 Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"
26 Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him.

In Christianity it is explained that Jesus was the one who delivered himself to be killed and that nobody else did it to him. This is planned suicide. I can clearly read in between the lines how subtly John or whoever wrote his "gospel" is tagging some promotional advice about accepting what Jesus is prophesying because it is the same as accepting it from the "one who sent" Jesus. One has no choice, but to believe. That is, if one is that gullible. So it is easy to prophesy many years in the future anything that already happened. I see that one has to be extremely subjective to Christianity to believe in the Christian faith.

Spying

03-25-2001, 09:18 AM

Hi Stranger,

Does the strong man gain strength through exercise alone? No, he must also have good food to eat. Messiah said:
John 6:47-51
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.(KJV)So, the muscle or strength of Messiah is the life of the world if this flesh is eaten by the world. Consider these words:
John 4:34
34 Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (KJV)What are these words saying? Can accomplishing the will of YAHWEH be considered food? If one finishes the work of YAHWEH, is that flesh for your bones? When we consider these things along spiritual lines, can we call this flesh bread? Yes, we can! It is the best of foods! Is it not written?:
Deut 8:3
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that (the) man (the Messiah)doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)So, the real bread of life is very simple. This bread is doing what YAHWEH has commanded. Did Messiah accomplish this eating? Yes! Do all the praisers of YAHWEH participate in this eating? Yes, they do! Every Jew who remembers the Sabbath Day to keep it holy is eating of this bread, and he is praising YAH thereby. However, is that the only command by which YAH is praised? No, the flesh of Messiah is not a one slice meal. It is a full course meal which is actually double edged. It is a meal which has a hidden agenda. Only the very few get to eat of this hidden agenda, and when one begins to eat, your must eat your portion. As it is written:
Luke 22:19
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. (KJV)Many eat from one side of this bread. Both Gentiles and Jews keep the physical Sabbath. One can keep the Sabbath knowing nothing about the spiritual keeping of the Sabbath which is a turning and a complete rest from sin. However, if one begins to eat of the spiritual side, that is, if one is made aware of the hidden agenda, and if one begins to consciously interfere with that hidden agenda by introducing one's own agenda, by leavening the bread of life so to speak, one lifts his heel, does he not from the path of life? If one strays from that path, what happens? There are snakes lying by the wayside. They will strike you and their poison will enter you, and no only that, but if you lift your heel from the path, there are others waiting to replace you. They will take your walk from you. They will take your walk, your place in the hidden agenda, and they will themselves will become the true praisers of YAH. So, there is reason enough not to name your children, Judas. If you don't think so, then please read this Psalm:
Ps 109:1-31
1 Hold not thy peace, O ELOHIM of my praise; 
2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. 
4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the YAHWEH; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the YAHWEH continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
16 Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually.
20 Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the YAHWEH, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
21 But do thou for me, O YAHWEH the Adonai, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.
22 For I am poor and needy, and my heart is wounded within me.
23 I am gone like the shadow when it declineth: I am tossed up and down as the locust.
24 My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.
25 I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
26 Help me, O YAHWEH my ELOHIM: O save me according to thy mercy:
27 That they may know that this is thy hand; that thou, YAHWEH, hast done it.
28 Let them curse, but bless thou: when they arise, let them be ashamed; but let thy servant rejoice.
29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
30 I will greatly praise the YAHWEH with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul. (KJV)So, tell me, Stranger, which praiser of YAHWEH do you desire to be? Which side of this bread do you desire to butter and eat? Do you desire to be YAHUSHUA or do you desire to be JUDAS? You can still be either one, you know!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

03-25-2001, 12:02 PM

Which is best Spying, to betray one JEW or to betray all the rest? Both of these men are guilty of betrayal. Judas betrayed a claimed redeemer to death. But (jesus) betrayed all of his people into the hands of christianity. Which puddle of blood is the deepest? The cry of a lone redeemer is hard to listen to, but the screams of the JEWish children who are betrayed into the hands of christianity, make an uglier sound! Stranger is not talking about the name of Judas, but rather the name of Judah, from which it is taken. Ps. 109 is also talking about the name of Judah, (the house of David), and it's relationship to the name of YHWH, along with those who have to depend upon it for their salvation. Christianity has an ugly side. You need to become aware of it. A saviour should save his own people if he wants to be called their saviour. Christianity does not make an appropriate bandaid for the JEWish people. ....Michael

Sandy

03-25-2001, 12:12 PM

Hello Stranger
Very interesting post.

In verse 27 where it says,
"As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him." Do you think Jesus is talking to Judas or is he actually talking to Satan, the one who entered Judas?

I find it equally disturbing that in the Scriptures, not just in the Greek but also in the Hebrew, individuals can be singled out and used as a sort of pawn (some for good and others for evil). There are several cases of which some are clear and some not so clear. The case of Pharoah being a very clear example as well as Job.

Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and I will multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

First sign: Rod turned into a serpent (Exodus 7:8-12)
Second sign: Water turned to blood (Exodus 7:17-25)
Third sign: Frogs (Exodus 8:1-15)
Fourth sign: Lice (Exodus 8:16-19)
Fifth sign: Flies (Exodus 8:20-32)
Sixth sign: Death of Egypt's livestock (Exodus 9:1-7)
Seventh sign: Boils (Exodus 9:8-12)
Eighth sign: Hail (Exodus 9:13-35)
Ninth sign: Locusts (Exodus 10:1-20)
Tenth sign: Darkness and gloom (Exodus 10:21-29)
Eleventh sign: Death of Egypt's firstborn (Exodus 11:1-12:33)

After each sign, except the last, YHUH purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would NOT let the Israelites/Hebrews leave.

Why are his signs and wonders plagues, pestilence and death? Why does he not do something beautiful and uplifting to prove who and what he is?

Job 1
6) And a day came when sons of the elohim came to present themselves before YHUH and the Satan also came among them.
8) And YHUH said to the Satan, Have you set your heart before my servant Job? For there is none like him in the earth. A perfect and upright man, fearing elohim and turning away from evil.
12) And YHUH said to the Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only, do not lay your hand on him...
Job 2
1) And a day came when sons of the elohim came to present themselves before YHUH and the Satan also came among them.
8) And YHUH said to the Satan, Have you set your heart before my servant Job? For there is none like him in the earth. A perfect and upright man, fearing elohim and turning away from evil.
6) And YHUH said to the Satan, Behold he is in your hand. But keep his life.
Even though Job is perfect, upright, fearing elohim and turns from evil YHUH places him in the hand of Satan. Satan is allowed to do anything he wants to him except take his life.

Personally I find that very disturbing.

Spying

03-26-2001, 06:05 AM

Hi Thummim,

Your questions are good questions to ask a spy. In my humble opinion, betrayal is betrayal, and it is neither good or bad due to the numbers involved. From a spy's perspective, betrayal is good if your enemies are bad. I believe that it is a bad thing to betray a good person. I believe that it is a bad thing to betray a good people or nation. I believe that it is a good thing to betray a evil person just like it is a good thing to betray an evil nation. To illustrate my point, consider this scenario: If you were a spy who had infiltrated the high command of Nazi Germany, and if you betrayed their secrets to the Allies, is that betrayal good or bad? How about if we turn that around? Let's say that you are a Nazi spy in the high command of the Allies, and if you betrayed their secrets, is that betrayal good or bad? What if you had learned of the time and place of the Allied Invasion of Europe, and you then communicated that information to your German superiors, would that betrayal have been good or bad? Do you see? It really depends upon who your enemies are, doesn't it?

Now, I am working to communicate to you Messiah's perspective on this issue. Messiah in a sense was himself a spy. He, being a man, was privileged to view most of the state secrets of YAHWEH. Messiah began to communicate those secrets to his own people, the Jews. This communication was accomplished in a manner approved by YAHWEH, but, by and large, his own people rejected this communication. It happened with Messiah as it happened with Joseph. His own people were very jealous of him and his claims. Consider this claim alone:
Matt 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (KJV)If you yourself had been present when Messiah made the above statement, what would you have thought? What if you had been an elder of Israel, let's say a righteous Pharisee, how would you have been feeling, listening to that statement? I know what I would have been thinking and feeling: "Young man, what do you think that I myself have been doing all my life? What do you think that your people have been doing for the last fourteen hundred years? You say that you are here to fulfill, what does that imply about us?" As Messiah advanced his mission, his own people became more and more suspicious of him. He would not open up to them. He would not answer their questions, especially the questions of the religious authorities without ordinarily making them feel foolish. You see, Messiah was loyal to YAHWEH. He would not betray state secrets. When the Jews confronted him, they walked away with egg all over their faces.

Messiah is the Son of Man. He is not just the Savior of the Jews. He is the Savior of all mankind. This savior was betrayed not just by Judas, but by his own people, and Judas, himself, is representative of that people. Did Messiah come to his own people with a false report? Did his own people believe this report? Then how do you say that he betrayed his own people? Did he betray his own people by telling them the truth? When you tell someone the truth, that is not a betrayal. What did Messiah say that was not the truth? So, you are quite wrong, Thummim. Messiah has not betrayed his own people, but his own people did betray him.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

03-26-2001, 08:04 AM

Shalom Spying. I have some questions for you. When you accuse the [JEWs], are you aware that you are making all JEWs guilty? What percent of the JEWs are guilty of betraying your messiah? How many were there to betray him? Aren't you equally guilty of betraying Abraham Lincoln? I know that you didn't shoot him but neither did the [JEWs] betray (jesus). How many were present. How many made a choice to participate? Are one out of ten thousand guilty? You must realize that crucifixion is Roman. Why don't I hear you accusing the Romans of crucifing him? Are Americans guilty of a crime everytime one of our fellow citizens goes bezerk? Why do you talk about JEWs different than you talk about ourselves? When the nazi's went after the JEWs, they first assaulted their name. They made it clear that JEWs were different from themselves. Without defiling their name, the german people wouldn't have let the nazi's harm the JEWs. First the german people needed permission to turn their heads and not listen to JEWish cries for help. This is what defiling a name is all about. First you murder the name, then you murder the people. The german people also spoke like you, accusing all JEWs. Only they would say "das Juden!". Yes, germans were like christians in the way they spoke of JEWs. The JEWs did it, the JEWs did it. Of all the people that are accused by saying [the JEWs], not one out of a million had anything to do with the killing of (jesus). Yet, christians have a very long memory and cannot accuse those who are responcible, they have to accuse all JEWs. Whatever (jesus) meant by his statement,"Think not that I am come to distroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to distroy, but to fulfil", By the right arm of christianity, he destroyed his people by the millions. To redeem the JEWs from the wrath of christianity will take a name that christians will not accuse, in the way that they have accused the name, [JEWs]. I look for the help of the lovers of this people, to help me cover all JEWs with the name of their Eloheem. The authors of the tanakh did not intend to leave the (image of Eloheem) empty. If a peoples can look like YHWH, they can also be called by his name. ....Michael

Spying

03-27-2001, 07:43 AM

Hi Thummim,

You ask some difficult questions, and I will endeavor not to waffle in my answers. This is what Messiah has to say concerning those who are against him:
Matt 12:30-37
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (KJV)These are the words of Messiah's generation:
Matt 27:22-25
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Yahushua which is called Messiah? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
(KJV)This bloodguilt is upon the head of the Jewish people. Indeed, fathers can make decisions which affect their children for generations to come. At the trial of Messiah, the Jews were very sure of themselves. It did not take very long for them to begin to lose confidence. All it took was a few honorable men standing up and declaring their bloodguilt to them. Here is what Peter testifies:
Acts 2:22-23
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yahushua of Nazareth, a man approved of ELOHIM among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which ELOHIM did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of ELOHIM, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (KJV)In other words: YOU ARE GUILTY OF SLAYING AN INNOCENT MAN. The Jews did not like these accusations back then:
Acts 5:28
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. (KJV)And even you must admit that nothing has changed in two thousand years. The Jews refuse to accept their responsibility in the suffering and death of Messiah. Shall we cover up their complicity and justify their words and denials? Therein lies your dilemma, Thummim. You have a clear accusation against the Jews in the New Testament. You don't like that so you seek to discredit the New Testament. Ultimately, in order to rid the world of that accusation, you are going to have to participate in one gigantic book burning party someday, aren't you? And not only that, but you are going to have to discredit and malign men like myself who are this day also teaching the doctrine of the New Testament. You are, by your questions, already attempting to set me up as being anti-Semitic, aren't you? I am against the shedding of innocent blood period, but I am not against the telling of the truth.

I have admitted to all that are willing to listen that I, myself, through my sin did crucify Messiah Yahushua. He was an innocent man, and I did take him and slay him through my sin. I am horrified by that deed, and I have repented and turned from my sin. I am not saying that I have reached perfection. I am still fighting against my sin. If I should give up my belief that I did crucify Messiah through my sin, then I will lose my battle with sin because I no longer have motivation to win. It is the doctrine of the Tzaddikim that this circumstance is the same for all men. All men who have sinned are guilty of shedding the innocent blood of Messiah. Now, betrayal and false accusation and witness are an entirely different manner. Here is what Messiah has to say:
John 19:11-12
11 Yahushua answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. (KJV)You can see here that Messiah knows that his own people have the greater sin. Messiah will be very cautious with his own people. They will be tested to see whether their hearts have changed.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

03-27-2001, 09:26 AM

Spying, you are infected with anti-semitism and you don't even know it. It is because, so many people believe as you, that JEWs have perished by the millions. You're not alone in your beliefs. These are the things that JEWs were told as they were being slaughtered by the millions by those who believed themselves to be good christians. You see, the NT seems to give christians the permission that anti-semites need to hate JEWs. Anti-semitic onclaves have their faiths. They draw their strenth from the pages of the NT. They can be devout christians and still hold JEWs responsible for the death of (jesus). If there is a document in this world that has a vendetta against JEWs, it is the New Testiment. It, along with "Mien Kamph", make JEWs their villians. What the nazi's do to the JEWish body, the christians do to the JEWish soul. Neither gives the JEWish people any hope of escaping it's wrath. I know that it hasn't occured to you that (jesus) might not be the saviour of the JEWish people. Why delay the salvation of the JEWish people by millenia? There is no such delay prophecied. A redeemer should redeem and a saviour should save. You've been told of a deciever that will decieve the world and how he will be percieved as the ultimate saviour of this world, by it's peoples. Perhaps you already believe in him. Perhaps the decieved ones call themselves believers. If you don't believe, how can you be decieved? Perhaps you already believe in the antichrist. Perhaps you're already his disciple. The man (jesus), definately isn't a blessing to his people. If the redeemer of the JEWish soul comes for his peoples sake, to deliver them from the wrath of this world, what will become of him? Will christians treat him any different than they have treated his people? If such a man ever came to his people, what do you think would happen to him? What the christians have done to the JEWish people, they would likely do to him. Could the christians end up tripping and falling into the same pit they dug for all JEWs? Yes, I can see the christians killing another JEW. Will christians become the true killers of the messiah? Given the history of christianity, I can see it happening. Is there nothing in your heart that would allow you to defend the JEWish people from the assault that the NT throws at them. You defend one JEW as your god. But you do not give his people any defense. You need to discover the JEWish people. They have no distinct look. You could not tell their children from your own, or from those of your neighbor. This people are assaulted because they belong to a name. They are JEWs. If you were to become a JEW, nobody would know that you were any different from any other JEW. They would only see your name. But because you had subscribed to the name of [JEW], it would become your turn to experience the wrath of christianity. Your arguments have only proven the NT to be an anti-semitic book. I could hardly do it better. These are the arguments that christians have used to lessen their guilt from their many oppresions of the JEWish people. Maybe the NT is just a book. If that were the case, would you feel different towards the JEWish people then you do now? No, I dont believe that you are an anti-semite, but if you think like one---? ....Michael

Stranger

03-27-2001, 07:10 PM

Shalom Sandy,

I’m sorry, but I have only a few minutes to read your reply and give you a quick answer. Next Shabbat I will add more comments about your reply and I will read the rest of the replies, too.

Sandy, I know that Yahweh is sovereign and that he does a lot of odd things for his own pleasure. I am not bothered by the fact that Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart and delivered Job to Satan. Although, neither of them bear Yahweh's name like Judas or Jesus. I know that Yahweh is fair minded and full of mercy, too. In my post I am bothered by the fact that Yahweh is allegedly shown to have gone beyond his nature of protecting the sacredness of his own name and used a person bearing his name to betray an alleged messiah that he is supposed to have sent.

I strongly believe that the writers of the NT made up the story many years after the events and named the alleged betrayer, "Judas" that is akin to JEW so they could blame a JEW for killing an alleged messiah. The big mistake is that "Judas" is also akin to Yahudah which is the house that David belongs to and from where the messiah must come. I am sure you must know that. I can make sense of the Pharaoh and Job cases, but not this one. The Judas/Jesus connection doesn’t make sense at all, except for a lot of pain and suffering. Is there a reason for all of that? I can see the end of Job. So there must be some hope in bearing the suffering brought about by the"Jesus/Judas" connection.

Spying

03-28-2001, 06:34 AM

Hi Thummim,

I have already charged that all men are guilty of the shed blood of Messiah Yahushua because all men have sinned. As it is written,
Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the YAHWEH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)You would have me relieve the Jews of this bloodguilt. Why? Is it because the Jews in actuality have done good? Please, Thummim, I see that you would have me absolve them of any complicity in the death of Messiah simply because they are a race and have suffered greatly. Please, show me their goodness so that I can judge that they are indeed innocent and at the same time relieve myself of what you do now perceive to be my anti-Semitism! The Scriptures will not allow such a judgment so I no doubt will not be relieved. As it is written:
Ps 14:2-3
2 The YAHWEH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek ELOHIM.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)Judge with righteousness judgment. Why hate the Christians and love the Jews when both are guilty of going their own way and engaging in the very same activities? Is it not written?
Eccl 7:20
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (KJV)So, all are guilty, Thummim. If we absolve one race, simply because they are a race, then we should be willing to absolve all races. I am not willing to do that because the Scriptures condemn all races. All men are sinners.

Now, it is an entirely a different matter for one group of sinners to look upon another group of sinners and judge each other less worthy! I believe that is what you are reacting to when you see in history that Christians have persecuted and oppressed the Jews. It is not fair, and you know it, and so do I. For the most part, this scripture describes the historical relationship between Jews and Gentiles:
Jer 50:6-7
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the YAHWEH, the habitation of justice, even the YAHWEH, the hope of their fathers. (KJV)This was the attitude of the Nazis. It is not my attitude. Now, if this attitude should not be found among Christians, why it is good for the Jews to have this attitude amongst themselves concerning the Palestinians?

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

03-28-2001, 09:20 AM

Spying wrote:
Isa 53:6
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the YAHWEH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV)

Ps 14:2-3
2 The YAHWEH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek ELOHIM.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)

Eccl 7:20
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (KJV) Why do you always put the word "the" before YHUH'S name?

According to the Scriptures you gave: all have gone astray... there is none that does good... there is not a just man upon earth... But these Scriptures say otherwise.
Genesis 6:9
...Noah, a man, upright and perfect...

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety-nine years-old, YHUH appeared to Abram and said to him, Walk before me and be perfect;

Genesis 26:5
Abraham listened to my voice, heeded my charge, my commands, my statutes and my Torah.

1 Kings 15:14 (2 Chronicles 15:17)
...the heart of Asa was perfect with YHUH all his days.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, his name was Job, and this man was perfect and upright, fearing elohim and turning away from evil.

Psalm 97:12
Rejoice in YHUH, you who are upright

Proverbs 14:32
The upright has hope in his death

Thummim

03-28-2001, 10:36 AM

Shalom Spying,
 Isa.41:11, “Behold all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them and, and shalt not find them, even them that contend with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of naught.
Isa.44:22, “I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (this verse, goes with the time of Cyrus, placing the redemption of the JEWish peoples long before the advent of christianity. {vs.28})”.
Isa.45:17,25 But Israel shall be saved in YHWH with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded, world without end. In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Isa.54:17, No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgement thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHWH.
Isa.60:21, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land forever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
Isa.62:12, And they shall call them the holy people, the redeemed of YHWH and thou shalt be called, sought out, A city not forsaken. [This is some of the scriptural “goodness” of the JEWish peoples that you asked me to show you.] The goodness of this peoples, goes far beyond the scriptures contained within their own book. They practice their own faith as do I, and show concern for other peoples. The palestinian people have, at least, as many JEWish friends as they have JEWish enemies.
The prophet Isaiah believes in the righteousness of YHWH’s people, not because they are inherently righteous, but because YHWH makes them so. There is no blood guilt upon the JEWish peoples for the killing of one of their own numbers. Did the Romans crucify peoples for violating JEWish law? No, they practiced capital punishment when their own laws were violated. Therefore, it wasn’t the JEWs that crucified (jesus), it was the Romans. We Americans do not use capital punishment, except to pass judgement for the violation of our own laws. Why would we want to use capital punishment upon others, for the violation of laws that are not ours. You could easily allow JEWs to be a redeemed people if you wanted to. You instead hold them in “blood guilt”. The JEWs are not a race of peoples. I keep trying to tell you this. They are as much a race of peoples as we Americans are. Your perception of the JEWish peoples is slanted. You listen to christianities definition of JEWs and see them accordingly. There is every kind of peoples represented among the JEWs, in this world. There are oriental JEWs, Indian JEWs, European JEWs, Arab JEWs, Mexican JEWs, and African JEWs, etc. The JEWish people come from all over the world and represent every group of people in the world. You are (thinking) like an anti-semite. The JEWish people are not static in their makeup. New blood enters them every day. You can find a peoples righteousness as easily as you can find their unrighteousness. If you only loved this people as much as you love your christian doctrines, you might find your own righteousness, in finding theirs. Your faith refuses to redeem this people. As far as I know, the tanakh promises redemption to the seed of Jacob. I do not see christianity being mentioned in these verses that I began with.
I do not hate christians, I hate christianity (the faith that keeps defining JEWs as unredeemed). If you follow the oppression of the JEWish peoples, where this oppression is, you also find christianity. Perhaps it is because the doctrines of christianity, hold the JEW’s in their own ideas of blood guilt. I have a question to ask you. When a gentile becomes a JEW, do you judge him as a gentile, or as a JEW? How much blood guilt comes with his choice to be JEWish? Would a gentile who made this choice, be condemned by your faith? In the historical relationship between JEWs and christians, isn’t the body of a christian, always treated better then the body of a JEW? I know how christians have treated JEWs, but I’m not sure how the JEWish peoples have mistreated the christians. The JEWish peoples may have mistreated the palestinians to the number of hundreds, but the christians have mistreated the JEWs to the number of millions. These two conflicts are not the same. JEWs verses Palistinians is not the same as christians verses JEWs. When riots occur in America, what do you think the authorities do about it. Under the same conditions, we would most likely send in the national guard. Do you really think that we would handle the situation any differently, here in America? I want to see the christians acknowledge the JEWish peoples as a redeemed peoples. ….Michael

Sandy

03-28-2001, 11:16 AM

Spying wrote:
I have already charged that all men are guilty of the shed blood of Messiah Yahushua because all men have sinned.
Iesous died for his own sins and his sins only. He did not die for the sins of mankind. The sinner dies as a consequence for his own sins.

All men are not sinners according to this:
Matthew 9 (Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32)
12) But Iesous hearing, he said to them, The ones who are strong have no need of a physician, but the ones who are sick.
13) ...I did not come to call the upright, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 1
5) In the days of Herod the king of Judea, there was certain priest named Zacharias...And his wife was of the daughters of Aaron and her name was Elizabeth.
6) And they were both upright in the sight of Theou, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Kuriou.

Spying

03-29-2001, 06:45 AM

Hi Sandy,

The Jews fully realize that the Torah or the Old Covenant is a marriage between themselves and YAHWEH. They are jealous of that relationship. While some Jews do proselyte, i.e. the Hasidim, the majority do not. Indeed, it is unlawful for Jews to teach Gentiles the Torah. Their attitude is this: If I should teach you, you are going to take my place and the place of my children. Therefore, they do not teach any except those who do through persistence keep coming to them showing all the signs of someone who desires to learn. Such a learner must be willing to submit to the Torah. A male Gentile must be circumcised before he would be accepted within the community of Israel. Even so, such a proselyte remains after conversion and circumcision a second class citizen of Israel. His children are not automatically considered Jews. As far as I know, his children do not have the right of return unless they also can demonstrate that they themselves have endured the conversion process. The exception to this is, of course, those children born to a Jewish mother. They don't have to convert; eventhough, their father is a Gentile. Such children are automatically considered righteous Jews, recipients of the covenant of YAHWEH.

Jews maintain that circumcision and the Sabbath are signs of the Covenants. Both are like a marriage ring to the Jews, and it is Jewish law that Gentiles should not wear the ring of the Sabbath Day. As far as they as concerned, you must break the Sabbath Day in some fashion to show that you are not attempting to wear their ring. So, Sandy, you fit right into their thinking with you partial observance of the Sabbath Day, and they would approve of your teaching other Gentiles to only keep holy the daylight portion of the Sabbath Day. Under Jewish law, Gentiles can be executed for keeping the Sabbath without full conversion. The Jews (I am speaking of knowledgeable Jews here) view Gentile Sabbath keeping as a form of theft.

Now, it is indeed interesting when you look at some of these Jewish beliefs in the light of the experience of Abraham who was the first proselyte. Basically, Abraham was a Gentile who became a Jew through conversion. Ishmael was not considered a child of the covenant, eventhough he was circumcised, because his mother was not Jewish so to speak. However, Isaac was considered a child of the covenant strictly because of who his mother was.

The Jews place Abraham on a very high pedestal. They consider him to be a very righteous Tzaddik. They point to this scripture about him that you have noted above:
Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice (qowl), and kept my charge (mishmereth), my commandments(mitsvah), my statutes (chuqqah), and my laws (torah). (KJV)The Jews believe that YAHWEH made Abraham aware of all the requirements of the Old Covenant, and that Abraham did live by every word of that covenant as the above scripture seems to imply.

I do not accept that teaching, Sandy. I believe that the Torah was given to the Children of Israel through Moses and not through Abraham. I do not believe that Abraham himself was personally made aware of all the requirements of the Torah, otherwise he would not have married Sarah, his sister, and he would not have had sex with a gentile slave. Both are unlawful practices. So, it is exactly as the Apostle Paul does teach. Where there is no law, there is no transgression of the law. Once you are made aware of the law, you then are made responsible to the law. If Abraham had at any point been made fully aware of the law, then he no doubt, being the righteous man that he was, would have put away Sarah, his sister, as his wife.

So, just because the scriptures indicate that some men were righteous, this does not mean that they have fully lived up the standard of the Law sinless. Maybe they were not made aware of the law. Now, I admit that Asa is more of a problem for me, but you know what? Asa did die, didn't he? His body did see corruption, did it not? In the final analysis, our deaths and the decay of our bodies prove whether or not we were judged as sinners when we had life.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

03-29-2001, 08:34 AM

First of all Spying it is of no concern to me as to the practices of the Jews. They do not seem to have any better understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures than anyone else. If they did they would not be so diversified in their beliefs. I am not into Judaism and I do not believe the Jews in the land known as Israel today are the gathered children of Israel. The people called Jews do not have the Torah written on their heart for they are far from having one heart and one spirit.

Secondly, your use of the word gentile as a translation of the Hebrew word goy only continues to corrupt and confuse the true meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Genesis 10:5
The coasts of the goyim (nations) were divided by these in their lands, each by his tongue, by their families, in their goyim (nations), the sons of Japheth

Genesis 10:20
These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands in their goyim (nations)

Genesis 10:31-32
These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, accoring to their goyim (nations)

These were the sons of Noah, by their generations, in their goyim (nations). And from these the goyim (nations) were divided in the earth after the flood

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you (Abram) a great goy (nation)

Genesis 17:4-5
I behold My Covenant with you (Abram), and you will be a father of many goyim (nations)

And your name will be Abraham; because I have made you a father of many goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:16
I have blessed her (Sarah) and she will become goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:20
and I will make Ishmael a great goy (nation)

Genesis 18:18
and Abraham surely will become a great and powerful goy (nation), and all the goyim (nations) of the earth will be blessed in him.

Genesis 21:13
and also I will make a goy (nation) of the son (Ishmael) of the servant-girl, because he is your (Abrahams) seed.

Genesis 25:23
and YHUH said to Rebekah, Two goyim (nations, Esau and Jacob) are in your womb; yes, two people will come forth from your body

Genesis 35:11
and Elohim said to Jacob (Israel), I am El Shaddai...
A goy (nation) and a company of goyim (nations) will be from you

Exodus 9:24
...since Egypt became a goy (nation)

Exodus 19:6
and you (Hebrews, Israelites) will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy goy (nation)

Isaiah 1:4
Woe, sinful goy (nation), a people (Yahudah) heavy with perversity, a seed of evildoers, sons who corrupt...

Jeemiah 7:28
But you shall say to them (Israel, Yahudah), This is the goy that does not obey the voice of YHUH their Eloah, nor receive instruction...

Jeremiah 31:36
If these ordinances depart from before me says YHUH, the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a goy (nation) before me all the days.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
So says YHUH, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the goyim (nations), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one goy in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two goyim (nations) anymore; and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more. You wrote:
The Jews believe that YAHWEH made Abraham aware of all the requirements of the Old Covenant, and that Abraham did live by every word of that covenant as the above scripture seems to imply.

I do not accept that teaching, Sandy. I believe that the Torah was given to the Children of Israel through Moses and not through Abraham. I do not believe that Abraham himself was personally made aware of all the requirements of the Torah, otherwise he would not have married Sarah, his sister, and he would not have had sex with a gentile slave. Both are unlawful practices. Here again misunderstanding comes into play because of English translation. The Hebrew word Torah means instruction/instructions NOT LAW. Abram/Abraham certainly had Torah. It may not have been in the exact same form as was given through Moses, but to say that Abraham would not have done this or that if he had the Torah as given by Moses; well king David certainly had the Torah given via Moses and yet he not only committed adultery, but conspired to bring about the death of the husband. So having and knowing the Torah is not proof in itself. The Hebrew Scriptures are rife with exceptions and contradictions.

Spying

03-30-2001, 06:14 AM

Hi Sandy,

Ok, it also makes no difference to me whether one is a Goy or a Jew. Both die because they sin. The Hebrew Scriptures categorically say that all men have sinned. Sin is the transgression of the Torah. I have no problem accepted Torah as instruction. So, sin is the transgression of YAH's instruction. All men including yourself have missed the mark concerning that instruction. Do you not agree? So, why are you disputing with me on this issue? It is evident to me that you do have a difficult time submitting to instruction outside of yourself. I share that difficulty. In some respects it is a good trait, but it can hurt us also.

At one time in my life, I was willing to submit to Judaism, but Judaism would not accept me. As you note, Judaism is very tolerant of diverse opinions. Judaism is even tolerant of contradictory opinions, but there is one thing that Judaism will not tolerate. Judaism will not tolerate the conversion of a Gentile who believes that Yahushua is the Messiah. My conscious to completely clear in this regard. I did not reject Judaism. Judaism rejected me.

Now, it is clear to me that you reject Judaism. You also reject Christianity. You place, as do many others, the Tzaddikim within Christianity. You reject our testimony concerning Messiah Yahushua. You say that he died for his own sin, and of course, you say that he was not resurrected. Do you yourself have any belief or hope in a resurrection? If we do indeed die and decay for our own sin, is it important in your thinking that we somehow all learn to submit to YAH's instruction?

Sincerely, Spying

I use the definite article with YAHWEH alot because of my training in the Greek language. The definite article is important when it is present in the Greek language. When I delete the word "Lord" from the King James Version and substitute YAHWEH in its place, I do not generally delete the definite article. I do not check the Hebrew to see if the definite article is actually there. I suspect that sometimes it is there, and sometimes it is not.

Thummim

03-30-2001, 07:24 AM

Shalom Spying, I'm sad to hear that Judism rejected you. A belief that (jesus) is messiah however doesn't fit the faith of Judism for the reasons I've already mentioned to you. There are however [Messianic Jewish congregations] that practice a more traditional JEWish faith, which are linked to a belief in (jesus as messiah). This would no doubt aid your faith with it's more traditional JEWish practices. I hope that there is a congregation somewhere near you. My own personal faith does not allow me to view (jesus) as messiah. He would have to show himself a blessing to the JEWish peoples first. Any salvation of JEWs that he could render, would seem small next to the oppression that has come from christianity, upon the JEWish people. One does not want to make love to the blade that cuts the flesh of your own children. Still, a small group of JEWs have somehow gotten beyond this problem. These JEWish believers in (jesus) openly except those who need a more traditional JEWish faith. Thirty years ago, my faith was simular to yours. While I didn't hold the JEWs guilty of the death of (jesus), or non-JEWs either, my congregation did. I had a severe and very long war going on in me. I wasn't about to hand over the JEWish peoples to the wrath of christianity. I eventually tossed my bibles in the garbage. For many years, I did not want to look at a bible. The god of christianity had become my enemy. Only when I discovered that I could as well defend the JEWish peoples by the bible, did I pick up the book again. I had to discover that the tanakh presented a different faith than christianity does. When I found permission to see the truth and question a faith that made the JEWish peoples it's [JEW's], my faith was reborn. Though I only realized it latter, I was becomming less and less a christian, and more and more a JEW. My faith was following my own heart. I've since come to realize that our faiths are not static, that they are constantly evolving. Yours is evolving also, even if you don't realize it. This is perhaps why a forum is such a good idea. We can go through these changes in our faiths with some guidance. I value all the people on this forum and their many different insights. I want to thank you for the opportunity to use your forum. ....Michael

Sandy

03-30-2001, 09:26 AM

Hello Spying,
you wrote: Sin is the transgression of the Torah I believe that the Torah was given to the Children of Israel through Moses and not through Abraham Spying you cannot have it both ways.

If sin is purely the transgression of the Torah then the Torah was given at the beginning of time; even from the time of Adam not just from the time of Moses.
Genesis 4:7
If you (Cain) do well, is there not exaltation? And if you do not do well, SIN is crouching at the door; and its desire is toward you; but you should rule over it. If sin is purely the transgression of the Torah then all people on the face of the earth must have had the Torah. Even the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the Pharaoh of Egypt:
Genesis 18:20
And YHUH said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their SIN is exceedingly heavy.

Exodus 9:34
And Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased and he SINNED even more... Yes I agree that all sin, but I do not see sin as you are presenting it.

Sandy

03-30-2001, 10:17 AM

Hello again Spying,
You wrote:
Now, it is clear to me that you reject Judaism. You also reject Christianity. You place, as do many others, the Tzaddikim within Christianity. You reject our testimony concerning Messiah Yahushua. You say that he died for his own sin, and of course, you say that he was not resurrected. Do you yourself have any belief or hope in a resurrection? If we do indeed die and decay for our own sin, is it important in your thinking that we somehow all learn to submit to YAH's instruction? It only stands to reason that a New Testament believer would be considered a Christian. After all, the Christos (Christ) is what the New Testament, the Greek Scriptures, is all about.

Yes all die, but not merely as the consequence of sin, but because access to the tree of life has been closed off.
Genesis 3:22-23
22) And YHUH elohim said, Behold! The adam has become as one of us; to know good and evil. And now turning he will put forth his hand and also take from the tree of life and eat and live forever.
24) And he drove the adam out and caused to dwell from east of the garden of eden the cherubim and the flaming sword that turned every direction to guard the road to the tree of life. You also wrote:
When I delete the word "Lord" from the King James Version and substitute YAHWEH in its place, I do not generally delete the definite article. I do not check the Hebrew to see if the definite article is actually there. I suspect that sometimes it is there, and sometimes it is not. In the Hebrew the definite article "the" is never before the name. Please remember YHUH is a name not a title.

Spying

03-31-2001, 07:44 AM

Hi Thummim,

I have already charged that all men are guilty of the death of Messiah Yahushua. I do not blame the Jews more than the Gentiles. Both Jews and Gentiles were present at the Cross. The fact that a Gentile converts to Judaism does not make such an individual more or less guilty of the blood of Messiah. The fact that a Jew converts to Christianity does not make him any more or less guilty of the blood of Messiah. I view Judaism as the Mother. I see the various sects of Christianity as Daughters. The mother taught the daughters to do what they do, and you, if you are honest with yourself, can surely now see the Mother displaying this same cycle of abusive behavior in their treatment of the Palestinians. When in history you see this behavior against the Jews, you rightly are able to speak boldly against it. Why, then, turn and defend the same behavior when you see the Jews abusing the Palestinians? What has happened to Jews at the hand of Christians is horrible. What the Jews have done and are now doing to the Palestinians is not any less horrible.

I view all men, both Jews and Gentiles, as my brothers in Messiah Yahushua. I must treat all men as if they are Messiah himself. This is why Messiah said,
Matt 25:40-46
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Adonai, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)Now, Thummim, my doctrine teaches that we all died in Messiah Yahushua through our sin. This makes us all brothers. So, I have a responsibility to all my brothers, and not just the Jews. Now, I know that you do not understand this type of teaching, but that is really what Messiah Yahushua is all about.

You are welcome. I am happy that you are here at this forum. I view you as a brother. I hope you will grow to understand that I really mean that; eventhough, it does seem possible today. You are absolutely right about our faith continually changing. Only those, who have that perception, can practice patience and toleration. Have a good Sabbath Day, Thummim.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-01-2001, 07:34 AM

Spying, ...My nine year old niece has been invited by a friend to go to Sunday school with her. This does disturb me. Are they going to teach her that [the JEWs] killed (jesus)? If so, damn christianity! When next we talk {soon after her visit}, I may have to explain to her that christians lie. I may have to explain to her, who the real killers are. I wish that christianity were not so pervasive. Also, it's better that a messiah make peoples all innocent, rather than all guilty. ....Michael

Spying

04-01-2001, 08:04 AM

Hi Sandy,

Concerning the Sacred Name. I will defer to your knowledge of the Hebrew language. I know nothing of the Hebrew so I cannot dispute what you are relating to me about the Name not being a title. Does the Hebrew have a definite article? I depend upon Hyssop to answer those type of questions for me, and he is in Florida right now. I do know that the Rabbis translated the Hebrew into the Greek as if the Hebrew does express the definite article. Otherwise, why would they supply the definite article in the Greek if the concept of the definite article is not in the Hebrew? Consider this verse from the Septuagint:
Psalm 109 (110):1
The Kurios said to my Kurios. The Septuagint Version: Greek and English, Zondervan 1970The first "Kurios" translates from the Sacred Name, YAHWEH. The second "Kurios" translates from the Sacred Name, Adown, which is apparently a shortened form of Adonai. In the Greek with both YAHWEH and Adown, the definite article is supplied. So, if the Rabbis can translate the Hebrew into the Greek using the definite article, why cannot I translate the Greek into the English using the definite article "the" before the Sacred Names if I should so desire?

Concerning the Torah (the Instruction). Did your father and mother have a sense or awareness of how they would raise their family before you were born? At what age did they begin to convey that instruction to you? What was the first requirement that they made of you? Did they give you the sum total of their instruction at the beginning of your life while you were a babe? No, they did not. They gave you what you needed to know at the time that you needed to know it. The instruction or Torah of our Heavenly Father is no different. In its basic form, it has always existed, and our Heavenly Father gives that instruction to his earthly children when it is appropriate. Some instruction was given to Adam and Eve. Some instruction was given to Cain. Some instruction was given to others like Noah. Alot of Torah was given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but all the Torah was given to the world when it was made part of the marriage contract between YAHWEH and the Children of Israel:
Deut 29:14-15
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before (the) YAHWEH our ELOHIM, and also with him that is not here with us this day: (KJV)Neither you or I were standing there that day so the Covenant was made with us also. Once given, all are held accountable to the Torah as they are made aware of the instruction. This is why the Tzaddikim hold you accountable concerning the keeping of the Sabbath Day. By not keeping the night portion of the Sabbath Day holy, you are rebelling against the Torah, the Instruction, the Light that YAHWEH has given to all the world through Moses and the Children of Israel. Why continue to transgress and die?

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-01-2001, 12:10 PM

Hi Spying
You wrote:
the Rabbis translated the Hebrew into the Greek as if the Hebrew does express the definite article. Otherwise, why would they supply the definite article in the Greek if the concept of the definite article is not in the Hebrew? Consider this verse from the Septuagint:

Psalm 109 (110):1
The Kurios said to my Kurios. The Septuagint Version: Greek and English, Zondervan 1970Kurios (lord, master) is a title, therefore it needs the definite article. The Kurios is a SUBSTITUTE that they used in place of the name. The name in the Hebrew Scriptures is represented by four Hebrew characters and translated into English as YHUH (YHWH, YHVH).

It would be beneficial for you to learn more concerning the Hebrew so you do not have to rely on Greek translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The above Scripture from the Hebrew reads like this:
Psalm 110:1
To David, a psalm. Oracle YHUH to adony: Sit to my right until I place your enemy a stool to your feet. You wrote:
The first "Kurios" translates from the Sacred Name, YAHWEH. The second "Kurios" translates from the Sacred Name, Adown, which is apparently a shortened form of Adonai. The first kurios is not translated from the sacred name, but is SUBSTITUTED in place of the name. The full SUBSTITUTE is "the Kurios" not just "Kurios". Please realise that there is no such deity in the Hebrew Scriptures as "Kurios" or "the Kurios".

The second "kurios" is not translated from "adown" but from "adony" (adonai) and translates into English as "my lord" or "my master".

You wrote:
In the Greek with both YAHWEH and Adown, the definite article is supplied. So, if the Rabbis can translate the Hebrew into the Greek using the definite article, why cannot I translate the Greek into the English using the definite article "the" before the Sacred Names if I should so desire? You are free to do as you wish. And maybe in Greek grammer it is correct to place a definite article before a name as well as before a title. But as to the name it is not in the Greek. "The Kurios" (the Lord, the Master) is a title and is SUBSTITUTED in place of the name. If you are translating a name into English it is not proper grammer to use the definite article before a name. It would be like referring to you as the Spying or to me as the Sandy. It is improper English and also improper Hebrew.

Sandy

04-01-2001, 03:46 PM

Spying wrote:
Concerning the Torah (the Instruction). Did your father and mother have a sense or awareness of how they would raise their family before you were born? At what age did they begin to convey that instruction to you? What was the first requirement that they made of you? Did they give you the sum total of their instruction at the beginning of your life while you were a babe? No, they did not. They gave you what you needed to know at the time that you needed to know it. The instruction or Torah of our Heavenly Father is no different. In its basic form, it has always existed, and our Heavenly Father gives that instruction to his earthly children when it is appropriate. Some instruction was given to Adam and Eve. Some instruction was given to Cain. Some instruction was given to others like Noah. Alot of Torah was given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but all the Torah was given to the world when it was made part of the marriage contract between YAHWEH and the Children of Israel:

Deut 29:14-15
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before (the) YAHWEH our ELOHIM, and also with him that is not here with us this day: (KJV) It plainly stated in the Hebrew Scriptures that Pharoah sinned, so do you believe that Pharoah also had a portion of YHUH'S Torah?
Exodus 5:2
And Pharoah said, Who is YHUH that I should listen to his voice to send away Israel? I do not know YHUH and I also will not send Israel away.
As to the Torah being part of the so-called marrige contract. When a contract is broken it is no longer valid. And tell me, where do the Hebrew Scriptures say that YHUH married the world or where do the Hebrew Scriptures say that the Covenant was made between YHUH and the world. The Covenant was made with Israel and it will be renewed with Israel.
Jeremiah 31
31) Behold, the days come says YHUH that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Yahudah
33) But this will be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel...

Ezekiel 37
22) And I will make them one nation...and one king shall be a king to all of them, and they shall no longer be two nations and they will no longer be split into two kingdoms.
25) And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, where your fathers dwelt in it. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever. And my servant, David shall ruler them forever.
26) And I will cut a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant. And I will place them and multiply them. And I will put my sancturay in their midst forever.
28) And the goyim (the non-Israelite nations) shall know that I YHUH sanctify Israel when my sanctuary is in their (Israel's) midst forever. I am inclined to agree that the original adam and their offspring had basic Torah (instructions) and/or commands given to them by YHUH and that the Torah (instructions) given to Noah and to Abraham were not exactly the same as that given to the goy (nation) of Israel. But I do not agree that the Covenant is made with the world.

Thummim

04-02-2001, 09:30 AM

Shalom all, a good example of torah being used prior to it's actual giving, can be found in the 38th chapter of Genesis. Onan is told to do the duty of a brother, given that his brother died leaving his wife no one to inherit her husbands estate. (Gen.38:8) This bit of mitzvot is found in Deut.25:5,6. This may be due to the author(s) of the torah, back writing it from a latter date. I believe that the author(s) here are planting the seeds of {hashem}, a name that will act as a wedding ring of sorts, to bind YHWH in name to his people. Like [God] is written G-d and [LORD] is written L-RD, It is likely that the name of [YHWDH], Yahudah, is written YHW-H. There is no doubt that {hashem} is a name and not a title. As has been stated, it is never proceeded by the article (hey -"the" in hebrew). Moses asks the name of his Eloheem and is told, "YHWH, YHWH El" by his GD in the 34th chap. of Exodus. This could in reality be the act of joining of these two names together to cement the marriage of YHWH to his peoples. As I've stated before, if you remove the fourth letter of the hebrew aleph-bet (daleth), from the fourth position in the name of Yahudah, which is the name of the fourth son of Jacob and Leah, fourth generation from Abraham, then you insert the results into the place where the name of YHWH appears in text, you are left without any changes in the tanakh, (due to the fact that hebrew as originally written fills all spaces between letters with it's adjacent letters). I have mentioned many paths to this conclusion in previous posts. The corrupt 4th day of the heavens seems to signal this conclusion, the earth being planted at the wrong time. The line of shem, son of Noah (shem means name), being the path of the JEWish peoples, is another. The problem with the name of Yahudah, it seems that Zerah should supplant Perez in the light of the previous story of twins, where Jacob supplants Esau. (Gen.27:36), This situation that surrounds the story of Perez and Zerah with unfortunate firstborns, indicates the author(s) attention to the 38th chapter of Genesis. He took the time to set it up. The people are said to "bear" the name of their Eloheem in various places within the tanakh. YHWH implies that he will link his name to a tribe of Jacob in Deut.12:5 and in NU.6:27. The root of Jesse, which I take to be Yahudah (one of twelve roots), being an ensign around which YHWH's people gather, is said to be raised in the name of YHWH in PS.20:5. Praise Yah, the meaning of Yahudah, is linked to the name of YHWH in various texts within the tanakh, two for example are found in psalms 22:22 and 48:10. These are only two of many such linkings. And a relationship that I recently noted has both YHWH and the tribe of Yahudah giving birth to the sons of Israel (Isa.46:3,48:1). It is impossible that the author(s) couldn't remember who gives birth with only 26 verses separating these two accounts. It must be deliberate. The throne of David (Yahudah, 1 Ki.11:36), is also said to bear the name of YHWH in Isa.9:6,7. It may be that the tanakh links to the Babylonian captivity in it's writing, making the tribe of Yahudah the possible writers of the tanakh. This would explain the link between the names of YHWH and Yahudah. I don't think that any text of the tanakh can be positively dated earlier. When the tanakh was written, says a lot about how the mitzvot can exist prior to it's giving. These are some things to consider while dwelling upon the name of YHWH. This name should fill the Image of the GD, if the people of YHWH are to live forever. The sacred name won't touch death. It also would make YHWH's people a nation of priests, covering them with the garments of salvation. The glory of YHWH would have risen upon YHWH's people in the form of a name as befits a marriage. Filling the image of GD with the name of GD makes sense to me. If I were the writer of the tanakh and wanted to make this collection of writings special, I would make the line of "shem" all about this marriage of names. ....Michael

Spying

04-25-2001, 08:07 PM

Hi Sandy,

The Law is light (Proverbs 6:23). Anyone who keeps the law is therefore a light. This is why Messiah said that the Jews were the light of the world. They should let their light shine and not hide it under a bushel. YAHWEH has stated that he will give His Servant as the light of the Gentiles:
Isa 42:6
6 I (the) YAHWEH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;(KJV)Righteousness is all the commandments of YAHWEH (Psalms 119:142). So, YAHWEH entered into a relationship of righteousness with His people in order that light or the Law could go to the Gentiles. This is rather basic understanding. I would have thought that you would have been aware of it.

The Moon does also teach this concept. YAHWEH has ordained that the lesser light should rule the night. YAHWEH called His people out of Egypt in order that they should ultimately rule the darkness (the world). This is rather basic understanding also. Light or Law does triumph over darkness. YAHWEH said to the Children of Israel that Abib should be the beginning of their moons:
Exod 12:2
2 This month (moon) shall be unto you the beginning of months (moons): it shall be the first month (moon) of the year to you. (KJV)So, when Israel left Egypt, she was a new moon. I saw the physical new moon last night. It was pretty small and insignificant. It does not give much light to the world. That definitely fits Israel in the wilderness, but one thing about the moon, it grows each day until it lightens the night. So, Sandy, please don't argue that YAHWEH in given the Law to Israel did not know thereby that she was destined to bring the nations into the light.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-25-2001, 09:03 PM

Hello Spying

You wrote:
So, when Israel left Egypt, she was a new moon. I saw the physical new moon last night. It was pretty small and insignificant. It does not give much light to the world. That definitely fits Israel in the wilderness, but one thing about the moon, it grows each day until it lightens the night. So, Sandy, please don't argue that YAHWEH in given the Law to Israel did not know thereby that she was destined to bring the nations into the light. I have already stated in other posts that Israel is to be a light to the nations. That does not mean that the covenant is made with the world.

As to your cute little allegory concerning the new moon and how it grows each day until it lightens the night. Are you forgetting that once it becomes full it then begins to decrease in light?

Thummim

04-25-2001, 10:41 PM

Spying, it is a light to the {nations of Israel} that Isa.42:6 speaks of. What happens to the gentiles is in Isa.42:13-15. YHWH forces them to let his people go. Isa.44:21 tells us who the righteous servant is. It is the people who are loosed from captivity. They are given light so they can find their way home in Isa.42:16. Israel's sins are blotted out by YHWH. They go free (if you will ever release them). YHWH himself, redeemed them in Isa.44:22. Cyrus makes his proclamation in Isa.44:28 to rebuild the temple. Ezra and Nehemiah will build the new temple after laying it's foundation. These people are now blameless before their Eloheem.

Spying

04-27-2001, 09:07 AM

Hi Thummim,

I could perhaps agree with you if it were not for this chapter in Isaiah (49). Consider this verse:
Isa 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (KJV)Who are the tribes of Jacob? Are they not the descendants of the sons of Jacob? Are any tribes excluded here? No! Who are the preserved of Israel that are to be restored and what are they to be restored to? Surely, they are also physical descendants of sons of Jacob. In your mind, they would be Jews, would they not, restored to their own land in Palestine? So, if the Servant will bring salvation to the physical descendants to bring them forth from the nations, why is that too light a thing to YAHWEH? Why would YAHWEH again send the Servant forth unto the ends of the earth if He has already done so to gather the tribes and preserved of Israel? I know that you and Sandy don't like this, but in Isaiah 49, Goyim means Gentile nations and not the tribes of Israel. If Goyim means Gentile nations here, why should Goyim mean "nations of Israel" in Isa. 42:6?

Messiah is the Servant who is also the light of the Gentiles. For this reason Messiah Yahushua said:
Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (KJV)Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-27-2001, 11:30 AM

Spying, the answer is in what is meant by {salvation}. It is not talking about saving souls here, but rather gathering YHWH’s people back to himself. Salvation is used in a physical sense. YHWH is not planning to subdue nations to honor his mitzvot, but to force them to let loose of his people. (Isa.49:22-26 puts gentiles into servitude under his own people. ) Who does this salvation belong to? “And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I YHWH am thy saviour and thy redeemer, the mighty one of Jacob.” (vs.26) YHWH is going to save his people from their gentile oppressors. You misunderstand how the word salvation is used here. Gentiles are not being given a favorable role. YHWH is planing to deliver his people out of the hands of their captors, and through the survivors of Babylon, to be a light for his people to find their way home. The author writes his dissertation from the perspective of Yahudah in captivity. We have two families, two separate groups from Israel, {the patriarch}. Those whom the Assyrians have taken captive, and are not yet returned to their land, and captive Judah. Salvation though, centers in the release of the Babylonian captives by Cyrus, to rebuild the temple, who will aid in inheriting the desolate lands of Israel, through their liberty (Isa.48:20) The servants of YHWH are those hidden among his arrows, his “nations”, who were formed in his womb. (Isa.46:3) They are named in the womb (Isa.43:1) Yahudah {the tribe} holds the seed of Jacob in their own loins (Isa.48:1). Something is being implied by this statement. Some of the confusion may come from the idea of Israel being either Jacob (12 tribes) or the captives of Assyria (10 tribes?), or Judah (one tribe). All come from Israel, the patriarch. Pulling these verses together is difficult. It also must be realized, that in a time when all YHWH’s people are captives, the salvation of gentiles, is not very important to the author. ….Michael

Stranger

04-28-2001, 08:45 AM

Shabbat Shalom Spying,

I'm sorry it took me so long to answer some of your replies. When Christ said, "my meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work" I can understand what he is trying to say for himself about his meat and blood. All the politicians that I know make inflated statements about themselves, too. I have a serious problem reconciling Christ's many statements, deeds, lifestyle and delivery record that disqualifies him from being the expected HaMaschiach. Now I wonder what kind of work in need of finishing is he talking about? Yahweh finished his creation saying that it was good and rested, "ceased" from work. Christ states that his "father" didn't finish his work and now he has to do it. Paul claims the same thing about Christ that he didn’t finish his work and that he has to do it. It seems that everybody in the NT is trying to finish something started by someone else.

Colossians 1:24 (NIV) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

They all make themselves to be very important and absolutely necessary, but their statements, deeds and lifestyle betray them. They all made some careless statements that can be explained away through the Christian "spiritualization" method. The Christians feel comfty about, but not me. I would place myself under Yahweh's curse if I trust a man no matter how extraordinary he/she may be to be my savior, the one who will grant my inheritance in the Olam HaBa. I want to be blessed of Yahweh. Don't you?

Jeremiah 17:5 * This is what Yahweh says: "Cursed is the man who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from Yahweh. (i.e. to Jesus Christ)

Jeremiah 17:7 * "But blessed is the man who trusts in Yahweh, whose confidence is in him. (NOT IN THE MAN OR SON OF MAN JESUS!)

Here is where we split. I expect to inherit the Earth among the meek while the arrogant Christians are shooting for Heaven. They still teach what I used to teach in Christianity that the good Jews will inherit the Earth, but the Christians will go to Heaven the moment they die and that they will skip any judgment. They are not under any law to be judged, they say. In fact, anyone can quote a real nasty verse in the NT where it says that the Christians who died are now under an altar in Heaven praying for more death and devastation upon the inhabitants of the Earth including their own "loved ones" who may still be alive.

Revelation 6:9 (NIV) When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

Christ is not on record ever praying for the salvation of the Jews. He condemned them right from the beginning, He even dared the Jews to escape the Heathen Inferno where they were going to be cast forever. The same thought is in the mind of the Christians who are in Heaven. They are not praying for anyone's salvation while they wait for the resurrection. Christ never prophesied to the Jews that they would eat his flesh and drink his blood to be "saved" and go to be gathered in Heaven like the rest of the Christians. So it may never happen for which we are thankful to Almighty Yahweh. It would have created so much more confusion. Spying, I honestly believe that you are covering up the nasty stuff in the NT and are trying to show only what appears to be good stuff.

I know I fell behind in my replies. I'm writing here now what bothers me the most about the NT.

Spying

04-29-2001, 08:08 AM

Hi Sandy,

Well, thank you. I thought that it was rather attractive myself. Every once in awhile, I will throw out a pearl to you in order to entice you. The knowledge that Israel became a new moon at the Exodus from Egypt is a pearl of great beauty in my eyes. You know what happens, though, when one throws out a pearl: One runs a risk, does one not? Chances are the thrower will receive the opportunity to measure the rending and tearing capabilities of the one before him. So, yes, I have thought considerably concerning the waning phase of the moon, and I have also given much attention to the dark of moon. The phase of the moon which does have the greatest beauty to me is the full moon. It has occupied almost all my focus and energies. Even so, I do have a special love and place in my heart for the insignificance and unnoticability of a new moon. Chances are one will not see a new moon unless you are looking for it, and even if one should happen to see a new moon, one can easily discount that experience as being unimportant.

Does light exist for its own sake? Is there no interaction between the light of the world and the world? If the sun is to rule the day and the moon is to rule the night, do not both day and night obey the light? So, there is a relationship between day and night and the sun and the moon. The moon has no light of its own. The moon gets it light from the sun. The moon follows the sun across the sky. The moon always presents the same face to the world. So, if the moon enters into a relationship with the sun (Israel did enter into a relationship with YAHWEH) in order to reflect the light of the sun unto the world, how do you really know that the world does not ultimately enter into a relationship with the moon and the sun to also reflect the light of the sun? You don't really know, do you? Consider this scripture:
Isa 66:23
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith (the) YAHWEH. (KJV).You are quite wrong here, Sandy, and if, indeed, there is anyone else that is looking, this is something that can be readily seen.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-29-2001, 09:03 AM

Shalom Stranger, I'll answer you here. Sis is playing with the buttons again. I want to state from the beginning that the meaning of salvation is different for JEWs, than for gentiles. Salvation is from enemies that oppress you in the tanakh. Christianity has a new concept of salvation. It wants to save souls. Christianity displaces the context of salvation, from the enemies to be saved from within the text of the tanakh, to saving souls. The clear division of enemies to the house of Israel is lost to christianity. This is why it is so difficult to teach the tanakh to christians. Everything in the tanakh is about saving souls through (jesus). A sign to Ahaz concerning the assault upon his kingdom by Pekah's confederacy to Damascus, becomes an account about the virgin birth of the christian messiah. Christians are unaware that these prophecies within the tanakh concern the authors times. Instead of the prophecy being about the physical salvation of the JEWish people, it becomes about the salvation of the souls, of the worlds people's. As you have put it, the christians are after the heavens and damn the JEWs here on earth! I would like to turn the concept of salvation back to its original meaning and to place a time stamp on everything that the authors of the tanakh are writing about. Salvation of gentiles? Ridiculas. The authors are JEWs trying to envoke physical salvation upon their own people. The tanakh is about "here on earth" and not about christianities concept of heavenly salvation. When the authors people are all captive to gentile nations, the authors of the tanakh are not at all interested in saving the souls of the worlds peoples. They want to be delivered from them. Have you noticed how christians are taught to see through false eyes, coloring everything they read by their christian dogmas? Try to point out that the tanakh is a JEWish book to them. Just try to return to the rightful owner, that which christianity has stole from them. I'm convinced that christianities god is as much baal-ized as was Israel's faith to the gods of Canaan. When you combine gods, even if you worship them by the name of your own GD, your still prostituting your faith. This was Hosea's concern. If you want to bless the JEWish peoples, you need to make a distinction between the Eloheem "YHWH" and the new {soul saving} god of christianity. You need to return the power of salvation back to YHWH and restore the meaning of the word, "salvation." The JEWish people need genuine salvation from their enemies. Their souls are already redeemed by their Eloheems name. They not only look like their Eloheem, being created in his image, they are called by his name as well. YHWH has taken his people to himself. ....Michael

Spying

05-11-2001, 06:58 AM

Hi Stranger,

I, too, am presently pressed for the place to write and reply as I ought so you need not apologize to me. I am behind in writing not only to you but also to Sandy and Thummim. Usually, I depend upon the Sabbath to help me catch up, but that probably won't happen this weekend. I will be in Nashville.

I feel compelled to draw your attention to a list of scriptures about work for you. I am going to first give this list to you without commentary, ha, which is hard for me to do. Maybe you will be moved to see some of the things that I think I see:
Exod 34:10
10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of (the) YAHWEH: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. (KJV)

Eccl 3:11
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that ELOHIM maketh from the beginning to the end. (KJV)

Eccl 3:17
17 I said in mine heart, ELOHIM shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. (KJV)

Isa 61:8-11
8 For I (the) YAHWEH love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which (the) YAHWEH hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in (the) YAHWEH, my soul shall be joyful in my ELOHIM; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the ADONAI ELOHIM will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. (KJV)

1 Chr 17:11-14
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. (KJV)

Isa 64:8
8 But now, O YAHWEH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. (KJV)

Isa 19:22-25
22 And (the) YAHWEH shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to (the) YAHWEH, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom (the) YAHWEH of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.(KJV)

Isa 5:11-13
11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of (the) YAHWEH, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. (KJV)

Isa 10:23
23 For the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. (KJV)

Isa 28:21-22
21 For (the) YAHWEH shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.(KJV)

Isa 29:14
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. (KJV)

John 4:34
34 Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (KJV)

John 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (KJV)

John 19:30
30 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (KJV)

Acts 13:41-42
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. (KJV)

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yahushua unto good works, which ELOHIM hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJV)

Jer 17:21-27
21 Thus saith (the) YAHWEH; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith (the) YAHWEH, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.
26 And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of (the) YAHWEH.
27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. (KJV)

1 Pet 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of ELOHIM: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of ELOHIM?(KJV)Have a good Sabbath Day!

Sincerely, Spying

Stranger

06-02-2001, 07:40 AM

Shabbat Shalom Spying,

I do agree with some of your statements, but I give not much credibility to the NT so whatever you have to say must square with the Old Testament. The old way that Jeremiah was talking about. Nobody wrote anything about a departure from the old way to a completely different way in which there is a need to trust a man for my salvation and where even HaTorah is trashed.

I believe that I mentioned this before about Jesus Christ crying, “it is finished.” He didn’t say what was finished. We can tell that he was finished indeed and that no deliverance was ever coming, but all the opposite. In the next 2000 years countless millions of Jews were persecuted and killed because Jesus Christ set it up that way. If you have any decency for the truth you know that you are defending a dysfunctional religion and the only reason that you do it is because you make a living out of it. I am looking for the coming of HaMaschiach not Jesus Christ. HaMaschiach is supposed to be like Moshe a true deliverer and a macho man. One who can stand up before Heathen rulers and tell them off Yahweh's orders, not a sissy Jesus Christ who needs to set up Judas to betray him because he had no guts to face Pontius Pilate on his own and demand the freedom for the Yahudim that he came to save.

Deuteronomy 18:17-22 * Yahweh said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other elohim, must be put to death." You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by Yahweh?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Yahweh does not take place or come true, that is a message Yahweh has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

So HaMaschiach is going to be like Moshe. He is going to be born like a normal human being and he is going to be successful. He is not going to be like a hybrid, half human and half deity of some sort. The NT writers were so bad at it that they couldn’t make some of Jesus Christ prophecies come true even when they were holding the pen. That is why I don’t fear Jesus Christ. Although I must confess that I fear for my life because I know what a fundamentalist follower of Jesus Christ is capable. Jesus Christ is on record ordering his followers to chop the head of the Jews that didn’t want him to be their king. Spying, will you be happy to comply with Jesus Christ’s order to chop off my head? “Behead them in front of me” is what some NT translations say. In the Greek the word is to “butcher with violence.” Now that I got to know him so well, I do not want Jesus Christ to be my king! Please, no never! I may be bad, but I’m sure I’m not like him.

Luke 19:27 (NIV) But those enemies of mine who did not want me (i.e. Jesus Christ) to be king over them (i.e. the Jews) --bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

Luke 19:27 (WEY) But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.'"

Ephesians 1:11 (NIV) In him we (i.e. the Christians) were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. 

The will of Jesus Christ is to have the Christians chop off the heads of the Jews who did not want him to be their king. Spying, I’m asking you a direct question, will you comply with Jesus Christ’s will to cut me in pieces in front of him because I do not want him to be my king? Please give me a direct unqualified yes or no answer. The order that Jesus Christ is giving is categorical and terminal. It sounds like the test of will to join a sorority of some sort. It doesn’t give the Christians any elbowroom, either. You are with him or you are against him. A Christian can’t be picky on what to believe of the NT. I am against Jesus Christ. So please, Spying, give me a yes or no answer without any foreplay. Any foreplay will add to the sadism of the whole matter.

Sandy

06-02-2001, 10:16 AM

Just like YHUH'S enemy, in Isaiah 14:12, Jesus is called the Morning Star.

Isaiah 14:4, 12-13
4) You will take up this proverb against the king of Babel:
12) How you have fallen from heaven, Morning Star, Son of the Dawn!...
13) You said in your heart, I will ascend to the heavens, above the stars of El I will raise my throne, and I will sit in the mount of meeting.

Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.
Note: The king of Babel (Babylon) is called "the Morning Star" and who and what is considered modern day Babylon?

2 Peter 1:19
And we have the more established prophetic word, in which you do well to take heed, as to a lamp shining in a murky place, until day dawns and the Morning Star rises in your hearts.
Note: Most Bibles (at Isaiah 14:12) translate heylel as "Morning Star", some translate it as "Shining", and the KJV translates it as "Lucifer"?

The Greek version of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, which was written prior to Christianity, translates heylel as "heosphoros", the Greek word for the "Morning Star". Similarly, when St. Jerome wrote the Latin translation of the Bible, called the Vulgate, written about 6 centuries later, he knew that heylel meant "the Morning Star". Accordingly, he translated it as "LUCIFER", the Latin word which was used to refer to the "Morning Star". In Roman culture the Morning Star was considered the son of the dawn goddess, Aurora. The word, Lucifer, literally means "light bringer".

Nearly 1200 years had passed by the time the English King James Bible was written (in 1611 C.E.). For some reason, its translators chose to leave the Latin word LUCIFER untranslated amid the rest of the verse which they translated into English. This unbalanced approach causes the Latin word LUCIFER to stand out: "How you have fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the dawn..."

The English KJV's use of the Latin word, Lucifer, masks the fact that the actual meaning is "Morning Star". The untranslated word LUCIFER hides its meaning. Was this intentional because Jesus is called "the Morning Star"?

Oh yes, let's not forget Paul and how he was persuaded by a great light that called itself Jesus/Lord (Acts 9:3-7 Acts 22:6-21 Acts 26:13-18).

And it is also interesting to note in 2 Corinthians 11:14 that Paul refers to an "Angel of Light" as Satan . So, for Paul to immediately assume to be and call a great Light his "Lord" raises a red flag as far as I am concerned.

Spying

06-03-2001, 06:39 AM

Hi Stranger,

YES!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-03-2001, 07:22 AM

...and so did many christians to the JEWish people, believing they had his permission.
.........Michael

Spying

06-03-2001, 07:49 AM

Hi Thummim,
Ps 149:6-9
6 Let the high praises of ELOHIM be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye (the) YAHWEH. (KJV)Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-03-2001, 06:24 PM

...For all the people will walk everyone in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of YHWH our Eloheem for ever and ever. Mi.4:5

...Thy name, O YHWH, endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O YHWH, throughout all generations. Ps.135:13 --> And GD said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH Eloheem of your fathers, Eloheei of Abraham, Eloheei of Isaac, Eloheei of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex.3:15

...YHWH's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name; here ye the rod, and who hath appointed it. Mi.6:9 KJV

...YHWH hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the Eloheem of Jacob defend thee. Ps.20:1

...But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel Ps.22:3 --> I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Ps.22:22

...All the nations compassed me about; but in the name of YHWH will I destroy them. They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about; but in the name of YHWH I will destroy them. They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of YHWH I will destroy them. Ps.118:10-12

...And all the people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of YHWH; and they shall be afraid of thee. Deut.28:10

...Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence, As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, (*TO MAKE THY NAME KNOWN*) to thine advesaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presense! Isa.64:1,2

...Hear the word of YHWH, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my namesake, said, Let YHWH be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

...And he shall stand and feed in in the strength of YHWH, in the majesty of the name of YHWH his Eloheem; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Mi.5:4

...THERE IS NO OTHER NAME LIKE THE NAME OF YHWH!
....Michael

Stranger

06-05-2001, 05:59 PM

I see that Spying is all excited to cut me in pieces and watch me roast in a sulfur and brimstone fire forever for the pleasure of Jesus Christ and all the Christians...

Thummim

06-06-2001, 08:02 AM

...Stranger, I think that Spyings responce is a knee-jerk reaction to your post. Though, if he were sincere, the smell of the soot from stuffing the ovens, would be on him. If a Moslem thinks it is in the will of (god), they will do all sorts of evil. Likewise, a christian in obedience to their (messiah). Blind faith is never good.
....Michael

Spying

06-08-2001, 06:12 AM

Hi Stranger and Thummim,

Messiah said:
John 18:36
36 ......, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (KJV)If Messiah's kingdom is not now over this worldly system, why do you, Stranger, assume that I would now use the weapons of this world against you as I now serve Messiah in his kingdom? And why do you, Thummim, imply that I am insincere because I acknowledge my readiness to execute vengeance at the proper time and place, but am unwilling to do so now?

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

06-08-2001, 06:35 AM

...How to interpret your one syllable answer, leaves much room to misunderstand your thoughts. Add a few more syllables next time.
....Michael

Stranger

06-09-2001, 04:47 PM

OK, Spying, I think I get it. You understand well enough that,
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me (i.e. Jesus Christ) to be king over them (i.e. the Jews) --bring them here and kill them in front of me."...are real flesh and blood people like you and I and you are looking forward to serve Jesus Christ forever in the capacity of Jew head chopper. The number of heads that you will chop is like the number of stars in the sky and as innumerable as the sand on the seashore. Do you really want to do it? That’s an awfully bloody work to look forward to. How are you getting ready for it?

Spying

06-10-2001, 08:27 AM

Hi Stranger,

I have a desire in my heart to be your friend. I don't know why, but I like you. Here is what Messiah had to say about friendship:
John 15:14
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (KJV)You did not command me, but you did ask me to give you a direct answer without foreplay, and I complied. I think that I have proven that I do desire to be your friend by the manner of my actions toward you thus far in our internet relationship. I have not chopped off your head yet, have I? IMA and I have never treated you with disrespect, have we? Indeed, we have protected you as best we could from those who were in the habit of doing so. As much as I desire to be your friend, I also want you to fully know that I desire to be the friend of Messiah even greater. If Messiah should ever ask me to slay you, I want you to know that I will do it in a heart beat. Will such a happening occur prior to the judgment? I don't think so, but I give you unqualified notice that it will happen at that time if you do not change your attitude about Messiah. It is going to happen to some, but I don't think that very many individuals will deliberately choose to die.

Right now, you and Thummim and Sandy are looking at things from a totally physical perspective according to your point of view. I am going to insert my name in the place of Paul's in the following passage:
2 Cor 10:1-6
1 Now I Spying myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Messiah, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through ELOHIM to the pulling down of strong holds; )
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of ELOHIM, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Messiah;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. (KJV)This passage describes my attitude toward all disobedience whenever your obedience is fulfilled. At some point, Stranger, you are going to be resurrected. You will hear the call of Messiah to rise from the dead, and you will obey (John 5:28-29). If you prove your obedience through your resurrection which will occur, what makes you think that you will then turn around and be willing to continue your assault through renewed disobedience on the very one who has just resurrected you? I don't think that you will. So you don't really have to worry about me chopping off your head as long as you are obeying your head, Messiah Yahushua!

Sincerely, Spying