The Talmud

[Sandy]

<font color=green>From the Talmud:
Erubin 21b
Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Moed Kattan 17a
If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Baba Mezia 114a-114b
Only Jews are human (Only ye are designated men).

Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a
Gentile women are designated animals (she-asses).

Sanhedrin 58b
If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

Sanhedrin 57a
A Jew need not pay a Gentile (Cuthean) the wages owed him for work.

Baba Kamma 37b
If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full.

Baba Mezia 24a
If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile (heathen) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

Sanhedrin 57a
When a Jew murders a Gentile (Cuthean), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b
Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel".

Baba Kamma 113a
Jews may use lies (subterfuges) to circumvent a Gentile.

Yebamoth 98a
All Gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b
Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b
Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Abodah Zarah 67b
The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?

Sanhedrin 43a
Footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene" was executed because he practiced sorcery.

Gittin 57a
Footnote #4, Yeshu is being boiled in "hot excrement".

Sanhedrin 43a
"On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"

Shabbath 116a (p. 569)
Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament. See footnote #6.

Israel Shahak reports that the Zionists burned hundreds of New Testament books in Occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21).

Gittin 69a
To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

Shabbath 41a
The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Yebamoth 63a
States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a
Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b
A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b
A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b
When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing.

Yebamoth 59b
A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Abodah Zarah 17a
States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Hagigah 27a
States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

Baba Mezia 59b
A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

Gittin 70a
The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

Toilet and excrement obsessions are laced throughout Talmud and were exhibited in Spielberg's "Schindlers List" where the Hollywood director shows a Jewish child jumping through a toilet seat in an outhouse and falling into a pool of liquefied excrement. There the child meets two other Jewish children partially immersed who inform the interloper that this cesspool is their hiding spot exclusively and that he must find his own.

Gittin 69b (p. 329)
To heal the disease of pleurisy (catarrh) a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dogs excrement as it loosens the limbs".

Menahoth 43b-44a
A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave.

Soferim 15, Rule 10
This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog (Even the best of the Gentiles should all be killed).

This passage is not from the Soncino edition but is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617).

This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been altered, The best among the Egyptians being generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b]. Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. ("Jewish Press" of June 9, 1989, p. 56B).

On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Rabbi Kahane who has stated that his view of Arabs as "dogs" is "from the Talmud." (Cf. CBS "60 Minutes", "Kahane").

Univ. of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldsteins philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against "goyim," a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5). Rabbi Yaacov Perrin says, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

If any of this information is false I would appreciate it being made known and I will appologize for posting it. If not then I find it very disturbing.

If the above is true then I see that it is from the Talmud that the word "goy" (and goyim) have been turned into something foul, which I find very strange considering Israel is referred to as "goy" in the Hebrew Scriptures and Abraham's seed is referred to as "goyim".</font>

[Thummim]

Sandy, couldn't you do this with the words that some Americans have spoken? Every kind of filth has come out of American mouths. The character of some of our leaders has been proven detestible. So what does that have to do with you and I? It should be stated that most JEWs do not believe these things. The rabbi's are a mixed lot and their commentaries reflect this. The talmud is not given the reverance of the tanakh. Nor is any other commentary. These ideas do not define the JEWish people or their faith in any way. Most crap is not injested willingly. The words of the rabbi's are argued openly. It's the most righteous of the rabbi's that gain a following. Then even the most righteous of us sometimes find ourselves ashamed of some of the ideas that we have espoused and some of the words that we have spoken. You would be hard pressed to find many JEWs that except these ideas that you've covered. It should be noted that these are only a few of the words of the talmud. The talmud is a very large body of work. Good things can be found within the talmud also. ......Michael

[Moses]

Sandy, All the things that seem wrong with the scriptures come from mistranslation. The things written above can be understood only from a literal translation. It all has to do with crossbreeding and I don't mean blacks with whites or yellow or red skin people or vis-versa. I mean mixing human DNA with that of animals and plants. It is throughout the scriptures and other Hebrew writtings as well as throughout Greek writtings and other writtings of the world.
Mayby if I have time I will go through as much as I feel necessary and show you where I am coming from.
Marietta

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Thank you Marietta, that would be personally appreciated.</font>

[Moses]

Greetings again,

Quote:
From the Talmud:
>>>Erubin 21b Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.<<<

My reply:
This is not saying that the Rabbis will punish a person by boiling them in hot excrement if they disobey them. It is simply telling the fact of what will happen through the laws of nature after their death.

Quote:
>>Moed Kattan 17a If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.<<

My reply:
I'm not familiar with this text, but will assume it is speaking about mixing with an animal.

Quote:
>>>Baba Mezia 114a-114b Only Jews are human (Only ye are designated men).<<<

My reply:
Only the Jews were pure blooded, not mixed with animals.

Quote:
>>Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a Gentile women are designated animals (she-asses).<<

My reply:
The gentiles women/she-asses/animals where the 'Oil of Anointing' because they brought the animal closer into the likeness of the elohim.

Quote:
>>>Sanhedrin 58b If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.<<<

My reply:
This is because they were checking to see if the crossbred animal/human beings were violent and if they were violent they were to be killed. The Jew was the one in the likeness of God.

Quote:
>>Sanhedrin 57a A Jew need not pay a Gentile (Cuthean) the wages owed him for work.<<

My reply:
This is because the Gentile is part animal and it was vowed that they were to be treated as animals in the work force.

Quote:
>>>Yebamoth 98a All Gentile children are animals.<<

My reply:
All the Gentiles/crossbreeds were considered animals.

Quote:
>>Abodah Zarah 36b Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.<<

My reply:
niddah means, to be in a state of impure menstruation. Making them an impure thing.

Quote:
>>Abodah Zarah 22a-22b Gentiles prefer sex with cows.<<

My reply:
Because they are part animal.

Quote:
>>Yebamoth 63a States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.<<

My reply:
This is also found in the literal translation of the Book of Genesis.

Quote:
>>Sanhedrin 55b A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b
A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.<<<

My reply:
This is speaking of mixed marriages with gentiles who are part animal.

Quote:
Kethuboth 11b When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing.

My reply:
This is stating that intercourse of such a kind will not bring about the birth of a child.

Quote:
>>>Yebamoth 59b A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.<<<

My reply:
The woman who had intercourse with a beast or a satyre/demon is eligible to marry a Jewish priest because having intercourse with the animal did not mix her blood. She is not part animal simply by sleeping with such. However if she gave birth to an offspring it would not be eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Quote:
>>Univ. of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldsteins philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against "goyim," a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).<<<

My reply:
This along with the rest are a desplay of ignorance taken to extremes.

Marietta

[simchat_torah]

You have done an excellent job responding to many of these quotes. Sandy, tommorow I will be back to answer any more that may be left (if I'm not to bogged down with studies).

Shalom,
Japheth

[Thummim]

Marietta, I see no vindication of the existance of any of these ideas in your explanations. What if gentiles are taken as clean animals? Need they be taken for unclean animals? JEWs eat clean animals. Are gentiles seen as not coming from Adam? Having sex with animals is forbidden, so having sex with the human animal (any gentile) should also be forbidden. How do your explainations fit into the context of the following verse, "also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH to serve him and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, everyone that keepeth the sabboth from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be excepted upon mine altar, for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all people". All gentiles are not held in dishonour by JEWs. Didn't Esther marry a gentile and thereby save her people? Rabbi's who present such arguments in the talmud must know that their arguments are going to be distroyed by the opinions of other rabbi's better informed. "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt". Ex.22:21 How vexing are the arguments made by these rabbi's in the talmud? Than again, these arguments could have been put forth, only for debate. It has to be remembered that the talmud sets rabbi against rabbi. The talmud is intended to sift knowledge from the many conflicting positions that are expressed within it's pages. Perhaps simchat_torah can better explain these ideas in the context that the talmud is written. I'm sure these arguments aren't meant to be taken literally. ....Michael

[Moses]

Thummim,
You wrote:
>>I see no vindication of the existance of any of these ideas in your explanations. What if gentiles are taken as clean animals? Need they be taken for unclean animals?<<<

My reply:
Gentiles were the unclean animals! A mix of human and animal.

You wrote:
>>JEWs eat clean animals.<<

My reply:
No body is supposed to eat animals or any other living thing. "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" We are not to eat anything with blood.
I don't understand this question because I don't understand what it has to do with the topic. Please help me on this one.

You wrote:
>>Are gentiles seen as not coming from Adam?<<

My reply:
Gentiles came from the mixture of the gas from the blood of Adam with that of animals.

You wrote:
>>Having sex with animals is forbidden, so having sex with the human animal (any gentile) should also be forbidden.<<

My reply:
Anything that goes against the laws of nature is forbidden!

You wrote:
>>How do your explainations fit into the context of the following verse, "also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH to serve him and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, everyone that keepeth the sabboth from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be excepted upon mine altar, for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all people".<<

My reply:
This is a mistranslation as is all of the bible.

You wrote:
>>>All gentiles are not held in dishonour by JEWs.<<<

My reply:
How many Jews do you know that don't dishonor a satyre or a centyr or a mermaid, so on and so on?

You wrote:
>>Didn't Esther marry a gentile and thereby save her people?<<<

My reply:
Again more mistranslation.

You wrote:
>>"Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt". Ex.22:21<<

My reply:
I would translate this like this:

Exodus 22
21. all widows are not orphans themselves, their experience secures life

Michael, I don't believe these things were written for debate, they were writtten to keep the Jews in touch with the truth held within the pages of the Torah. Which by the way was taken from then over and over, with threat of death to those who read it.
Do you realize that Hebrew is the only Language that died and then was recently revived.

Shalom, Marietta

[Thummim]

Marietta
First I want to ask you how you would translate Isa.56:6,7? Nuwn, kaph, reysh (Nay-kawr) 5236, a forigner or heathen. This is the hebrew word (strangers), used to indicate who will be invited to the house of YHWH to give sacrifices. The word goyim, (nations) is not used here. In what way is this a mistranslation? The word used for nations is the word (am'im), the plural of am, 5991 (nations). There is no mistranslation here. [excepting that there is no perfect translation between any two languages]. Where does it say that gentiles are interbred with animals? I think that you are mistranslating something. Let me in on it. How did you ever come up with such an idea? It does not mean, thou shalt not kill. YHWH asks his people to kill often enough that you should be able to figure this out. A better translation would be, thou shalt not murder. All the animals are given as meat (Gen.9:3) to Noah. Why would it be different for Adam? This seems like YHWH's permision to eat meat, to me. The flesh is for food. It's the blood you must not eat. Now explain this, "Gentiles came from the mixture of the gas from the blood of Adam with that of animals."I dont understand this. You say "How many JEWs do you know that don't dishonor a satyre or a centyr or a mermaid, so on and so on?" WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? As to this verse, "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him: for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.", I should have identified it as Ex.22:20 in the hebrew text and Ex. 22:21 in the KJV. I do have the hebrew text and I consult it often. The verse you quoted is 22:21 in the hebrew text. JEWs are told to treat gentiles honorably. Dishonor would defile their name among the nations. The talmud offers many varying opinions and is argued often. Every rabbinical student must know this. Great debates ensue from the talmud. And did hebrew die? Wasn't it always spoken in some form? While it was not a national language, It was always a second language for JEWs and was used for religious purposes. Throughout JEWish history, going back millennia, it was taught in the synogoges. It however, wasn't a first language until recently. Very many words had to be added to it, to make it fit a modern day world. A few rabbi's, who contributed to the talmud, Do not define the JEWish people. ...Michael

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hi everyone
I think part of the problem here is using the words gentile and gentiles to translate goy and goyim. When we are quoting something from the Hebrew Scriptures why don't we try using only the words goy and goyim (or nation and nations) as they are written in the Hebrew, and discontinue using the words gentile and gentiles. If you are willing to try this I think it will help us see more clearly how the words goy and goyim are used in relation to the goy (nation) of Israel as well as all the other goyim/nations.</font>

[Thummim]

Good idea Sandy. I think that (nations) is preferable to (gentiles). I also concur with you, that the term {goy,goyim} is used to discribe the {tribe, tribes} of Israel as well as the other nations in existance. ....Michael

[Moses]

Thummim,
You wrote:
>>First I want to ask you how you would translate Isa.56:6,7?<<<

My translateion:
Isaiah 56:
6. therefore within wailing if he-lamb if to his sea upper hand opening secured doorway unto ministry therefore and exhausted in her with existing hand opening secured doorway unto existence to him mockery out of sea the likeness of watcher which daughter profaned therefore and from breast existing within breaking open to radiate hand itself working
First word: waw beth nun yod:
waw:= therefore
beth:=within
nun yod:=wailing
OR
waw:=therefore, and
beth nun yod:=flock
This word is translated as: beth nun, dropping the yod

Second word: he nun koph rehsh:
he nun:=if
koph:=he-lamb
OR
he:=the
nun koph rehsh:=strangness, calamity

Third word: he nun lehmed waw yod mem:
he nun:=they, if, behold
lahmed waw yod:=if only
mem:=from
OR
he nun:=behold, if, they
lahmed waw:=to his
yod mem:=sea
OR
he nun:=if, they, behold
lahmed:=unto, towards
ww:=therefore
yod mem:sea, hot spring
This word is translated as:he lahmed waw he

Forth word: ayin lahmed:=upper part, over, above

Fifth word: yod he waw he:=hand opening secure doorway

Sixth word: lahmed shin rehsh taw waw:
lahmed:=unto, towards
shin rehsh taw:=to serve, minister, service, servant
waw:=therefore, and

Seventh word: waw lahmed ahleph he beth he
waw:=therefore, and
lahmed:=unto, towards
ahleph he beth he:=love

OR
waw:=therefore, and
lahmed ahleph:=not, no
he beth he:=give, let us

OR
waw:=and
lahmed ahleph:=not
he:=the
beth he:=in her

OR
waw:=and, therefore
lahmed ahleph he:= to be weary, be impatient, tired, exhausted
beth he:=in her

Eighth word: ahleph taw: with

Ninth word: shim mem: reputation, desiignation, renown, fame, name, existing, in existence
OR
shim:=which, who, that
mem:=from, of

Tenth word: yod he waw he: hand opening secured doorway

Eleventh word: lahmed he yod waw taw
lahmed:=unto, towards
he yod waw taw:=to be, existence

Twelvth word: lahmed waw:=to him, if only
OR
lahmed:=unto, towards
waw:=therefore, and

Thirteenth word: lahmed ayin beth daleth yod mem

lahmed ayin:=throat
beth daleth yod:=for the sake of
mem:=from

OR
lahmed ayin:=throat
beth:=within
dahleth yod:=enough
mem:=from

lahmed ayin beth:=to jest, mock, mockery, disgrace
dahleth yod:=sufficiency, enough, about
mem:=from, of

OR
lahmed ayin beth:=to jest, mock, mockery, disgrace
dahleth:=out of
yod mem: sea, hot spring

OR
lahmed:=unto
ayin beth:=cloud, thick, thicket, beam, rafter
dahleth:=out of
yod mem:=sea

OR
lahmed:=unto
ayin beth dahleth:=working, to serve, deed, action, servant, slave, he did
yod mem:=sea, hot spring

Fourteenth word: koph lahmed:=all
Koph:=in the likeness of
lahmed:=towards, unto


Fifteenth word: shim mem rehsh:=to keep, to heed, watch over, guard, to observe, to strain, filter, watching, guarding, fennel

OR
shin:=whom, which, that
mem rehsh:=bitter, embittered, master, Mr., drop, hoe, myrrh

Sixteenth word: whim beth taw:=to cease, desist, to rest, day of rest, seat, sitting, dwelling place, cessation from work, rest, Anethum a genus of plants

OR
shin:=who, whom, which, that
beth taw:=daughter

Seventeenth word:mem cheth lahmed lahmed waw:
mem cheth lahmed lahmed:=profaned, violated, pierced, killed, wounded
waw:=therefore, and

OR
mem cheth lahmed:=to forgive, pardon, forgiveness, illness, a thin secreation, sap, juice
lahmed waw:=to him

Eighteenth word: waw mem cheth zian yod qoph yof mem:
waw:=therefore, and
mem:=from, of
cheth zian yod:=form, aspect, of the breast, pectoral
qoph yod mem:=living, existing, enduring, duration, lasting, valid

Ninteenth word: beth beth rehsh yod taw yod:=breaking open, birthing, house, family, within (pick two)- to radiate, head of a man, head, top, first-hand, work-itself-hand, work
-within breaking open to radiate hand itself working-

You wrote:
>>Where does it say that gentiles are interbred with animals?<<

My reply:
I don't have the time right now after taking the time to translate the above. I have my daughter and her baby here spending the night. I will take time after they go home to give a complete reply to this question. OK :)

You wrote:
>>thou shalt not kill. YHWH asks his people to kill often enough that you should be able to figure this out. A better translation would be, thou shalt not murder.<<<

My reply:
Kill murder, it is all the same thing. "Taking the life of another living thing." There is no way you can candy coat it. To die is to die.

You quote:
>>>All the animals are given as meat (Gen.9:3) to Noah.<<<

My reply:
Genesis 9
3. all exalted who walk straight unto your hand opening working doorway not all the likeness of splitting the Great Bear (a constellation) within life itself covenant working to you with all.

You wrote:
>>>Why would it be different for Adam? This seems like YHWH's permision to eat meat, to me. The flesh is for food.<<<

My reply:
So is it ok for me to eat the flesh of humans as long as the blood is drained out of it? If there is an advanced civilation is it ok for them to take us and breed us for food because they can?
This is very disturbing to me.

You wrote:
>>And did hebrew die? Wasn't it always spoken in some form?<<

My reply:
Hebrew died as a "spoken language." It was forbidden upon threat of death to speak the Hebrew language. The Jews were even forbidden to have coppies of their scriptures, which is where the commantaries known as the Kaballah came from. The devout Jews put together from memory the Torah.
I have much more to say on this but an to tired.

Shalom, Marietta

[Moses]

Sandy, Please show me where in the Hebrew scriptures you find the wording Goy/goyim of Israel?
According to my dictionary, goy means: body, an irreligious Jew, people, nation

Your Friend,
Marietta

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hi Marietta
Here are various verses that use the word goy and goyim.


Genesis 10:5
The coasts of the goyim (nations) were divided by these in their lands, each by his tongue, by their families, in their goyim (nations), the sons of Japheth

Genesis 10:20
These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands in their goyim (nations)

Genesis 10:31-32
These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, accoring to their goyim (nations)

These were the sons of Noah, by their generations, in their goyim (nations). And from these the goyim (nations) were divided in the earth after the flood

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you (Abram) a great goy (nation)

Genesis 17:4-5
I behold My Covenant with you (Abram), and you will be a father of many goyim (nations)

And your name will be Abraham; because I have made you a father of many goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:16
I have blessed her (Sarah) and she will become goyim (nations)

Genesis 17:20
and I will make Ishmael a great goy (nation)

Genesis 18:18
and Abraham surely will become a great and powerful goy (nation), and all the goyim (nations) of the earth will be blessed in him.

Genesis 21:13
and also I will make a goy (nation) of the son (Ishmael) of the servant-girl, because he is your (Abrahams) seed.

Genesis 25:23
and <font color=purple>YHUH</font> said to Rebekah, Two goyim (nations, Esau and Jacob) are in your womb; yes, two people will come forth from your body

Genesis 35:11
and Elohim said to Jacob (Israel), I am El Shaddai...
A goy (nation) and a company of goyim (nations) will be from you

Exodus 9:24
...since Egypt became a goy (nation)

Exodus 19:6
and you (Hebrews, Israelites) will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy goy (nation)

Isaiah 1:4
Woe, sinful goy (nation), a people (Yahudah) heavy with perversity, a seed of evildoers, sons who corrupt...

Jeemiah 7:28
But you shall say to them (Israel, Yahudah), This is the goy that does not obey the voice of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> their Eloah, nor receive instruction...

Jeremiah 31:36
If these ordinances depart from before me says <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a goy (nation) before me all the days.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
So says <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the goyim (nations), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one goy in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two goyim (nations) anymore; and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.</font>

[Thummim]

YHWH bless you Marietta, the problem with a kabbalistic translation, is that you have to be a kabbalist to understand it. You use 56 words to explain the 19 words of Isa. (56:6). Adding words is not at all a bad idea if they lead to a better understanding. Few people are kabbalists though. Let’s say that a thousand people were given your translation and asked to explain it. If your translation led the thousand students to some understanding of your translation, there would be at least a thousand different interpretations given. I think that I’ve discovered how YHWH confounded the world’s languages. He taught them all kabbalah, but not how to understand it. Now I do not want to mock kabbalah. I’ve gained a little bit of understanding from what you’ve taught me. I personally like to translate individual words, rather than do a letter by letter breakdown of a sentence. It is the nature of hebrew to allow bringing many different words out of a line of text. When torah was written, the words of text were not divided by spaces. The running together of the hebrew letters requires that a person be able to recognise words, and the final forms of letters, to break down a sentence. Violating the rules allows for a diversity of translations to be found for each sentence structure. This is all a very complex way of saying, “I don’t get it!”. The following is an experts translation of the hebrew into english from Isa.56:6. The Kohlenberger translation into english goes like this, [*and-sons-of* *the-foreigner* *the-ones-binding-themselves* *to* *YHWH* *to-serve-him* *and-to-love* *name-of* *YHWH* *and-to-be * *to-him* *as-worshipers* *every-of* *one-keeping* *sabbath* *without-to-desecrate-her* *and-ones-holding-fast* *to-covenant-of-me.*] Compare this with your translation, [therefore within wailing if he-lamb if to his sea upper hand opening secured doorway unto ministry therefore in exausted in her with existing hand opening secured doorway unto existance to him mockery out of sea the likeness of watcher which daughter profaned therefore and from breast existing within breaking open to radiate hand itself working.] I acknowledge that this may be revelatory to a kabbalist. But to me, and I suppose many others, it only brings confusion. I wish that I could understand it. I wish that I knew kabbalah. I don’t want to mock your translation. There is a kind of sense to it. But I do not believe that this is what the author was trying to convey. I’m glad that we have a kabbalist on the forum. If I run into a dead end, you might open up a door of understanding to me. I’ve surely ran into my share of dead ends. I find it unlikely that hebrew ever died. But if you can reference this knowledge, I would be glad to investigate it.
I didn’t say that it was alright to eat the flesh of humans. I said that YHWH gave the flesh of animals to Noah for meat. Peshach is coming up. It was custom to eat the flesh of a lamb slaughtered for passover and leave none for the morning. This seems to be a command from YHWH to eat meat. There are many verses written which show that the priesthood ate meat. As to the mitzvah that says,"do not (kill), it is better to use the word "murder". Murder is a word that infers law. I also can show you much killing within the text of the tanakh, that has YHWH saying (kill). After all, what is to become of the inhabitance of the land of Canaan? So is YHWH saying, “Do not kill”? Why would he contradict himself? {Go kill, but do not kill}? I have to except, {do not murder} as my interpretation of this mitzvah. ....Michael

[Moses]

Hello Sandy, My question was where in the scriptures do you find the term "the goy of Israel."

Genesis 10:5
The coasts of the goyim (crossbreeds) were divided by these in their lands, each by his tongue, by their families, in their goyim (crossbreeds), the sons of Japheth

Genesis 10:20
These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands in their goyim (crossbreeds)

Genesis 10:31-32
These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, accoring to their goyim (crossbreeds)

These were the sons of Noah, by their generations, within their goyim (crossbreedings). And from these the goyim (crossbreeds) were divided in the earth after the flood

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you (Abram) a great goy (crossbred)

Genesis 17:4-5
I behold My Covenant with you (Abram), and you will be a father of many goyim (crossbreeds)

And your name will be Abraham; because I have made you a father of many goyim (crossbreeds)

Genesis 17:16
I have blessed her (Sarah) and she will become goyim (crossbred)

Genesis 17:20
and I will make Ishmael a great goy (crossbred)

Genesis 18:18
and Abraham surely will become a great and powerful goy (crossbreed), and all the goyim (crossbreeds) of the earth will be blessed in him.

Genesis 21:13
and also I will make a goy (crossbred) of the son (Ishmael) of the servant-girl, because he is your (Abrahams) seed.

Genesis 25:23
and YHUH said to Rebekah, Two goyim (crossbreeds, Isau who was as hairy as a goat and Jacob) are in your womb; yes, two people will come forth from your body

Genesis 35:11
and Elohim said to Jacob (Israel), I am El Shaddai (diabolic, devilish, field, whose divinity suffices for every creature, almighty)...
A goy (crossbred) and a company of goyim (crossbreeds) will be from you

Exodus 9:24
...since Egypt became a goy (crossbreed)

Exodus 19:6
and you (Hebrews, Israelites) will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy goy (crossbreed)

Isaiah 1:4
Woe, sinful goy (crossbreed), a people (Yahudah) heavy with perversity, a seed of evildoers, sons who corrupt...

Jeemiah 7:28
But you shall say to them (Israel, Yahudah), This is the goy (crossbreed) that does not obey the voice of YHUH their Eloah, nor receive instruction...

Jeremiah 31:36
If these ordinances depart from before me says YHUH, the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a goy (crossbreed) before me all the days.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
So says YHUH, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the goyim (crossbreeds), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one goy (crossbreed) in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two goyim (crossbreeds) anymore; and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marietta

[Moses]

Shalom Sandy, Here is how I literally translate some of these verses.

Genesis 10
20. to worship as deity flock warmth unto scab was ended unto slandering innocence he who comes running without blemish within body them

Genesis 10
31. to worship as deity flock in existence unto scab without blemish unto slandering innocence he who comes running without blemish unto body them
32. worshipping as deity from which to diminish flock restful unto nature of within body them and from worshipping as deity difference therefore the body from he who comes running upon white stuff they produce:

Genesis 12
2. and upon the Great Bear’s likeness unto body growing and one who comes young therefore twisting the existing likeness and here is the blasphemy:

Genesis 18
18. therefore upon exterior they here are and hand opening working doorway unto body growing therefore essence and pure likeness therefore therein the likeness unto foot secure working hand opening power to radiate adversity:

Marietta

[Moses]

Michael, Greetings to you.
You wrote:
>>>You use 56 words to explain the 19 words of Isa. (56:6). Adding words is not at all a bad idea if they lead to a better understanding.<<<

My reply:
Michael, I don't believe in adding a single word to any translation. I don't translate, I merely define words giving their english meaning. I NEVER add a single word to my translation, unless someone doesn't understand my translation and they ask me to explain what is being said. It really isn't hard to understand if you have read enough of the verses above and below the verse at hand. Just like any translation.

You wrote:
>> Few people are Kaballists though.<<

My reply:
I'm not a Kaballist. I am a Torahist. My translation and or readings don't take any special instruction to understand, other than an open heart and mind.

You wrote:
>>>I personally like to translate individual words, rather than do a letter by letter breakdown of a sentence.<<<

My reply:
I don't think you followed my translation very closely because I didn't do a letter for letter breakdown, I did a word for word breakdown. However I didn't do a transliteration of any words, I gave the meanings of all the words, one by one, line upon line, precept upn precept.

You wrote:
>>It is the nature of hebrew to allow bringing many different words out of a line of text. When torah was written, the words of text were not divided by spaces.<<<

My reply:
I'm not disagreeing with this at all. However I believe the language to be hundreds of thousands if not millions of years old and I don't think that anyone knows how it was originally written. I do believe with all of my heart that the rules that have been applied to the language were not a part of its original form.

You wrote:
>>The running together of the hebrew letters requires that a person be able to recognise words, and the final forms of letters, to break down a sentence. Violating the rules allows for a diversity of translations to be found for each sentence structure.<<<

My reply:
Do you realize know that according to Mishna there are over 927 different ways to translate Genesis 1, along.
(I'm not sure if this is the accurate number but its close and I know that the number is high and this number comes into my mind so I am going with it)
This is what the Rabbi's and students of Torah in Synagogue debate day and night. They don't debate that any translation isn't correct, they debate how to piece them together.


Good sence tells me that a god that demands blood sacrifice and/or demands a group of people to go into a town and kill all the inhabitants within the town because they don't worship him, isn't a god of love. There is one scripture that says something like: look at these people they are living pieceful and lawfully, go in and kill them all, men, women and children. This only makes since in the light, that the scriptures are not translated properly.
I would like someone to answer some of the questions Sandy has asked. They can't be answered without a lot of adding things that aren't there.
The Kaballah teaches that the 'first source' of all things is pure love and light and only gives life and can't kill or destroy. This is a truely divine being. This being doesn't ask for anything. I'm sure that if this source did ask for something it wouldn't be something as trivial as worship. If you are above another you don't need worship. A being only desires worship if they are insecure and in need of something. The 'First Source' of all things needs 'Nothing.'

Shalom, Marietta

[Thummim]

Shalom Marietta, I'm not sure that your {truly devine being} is capable of inspiring a collection of writtings such as the tanakh holds within it. Some of your own interpretations don't seem like they could come from a truly devine being. I cannot present an argument that will not be challenged as "misinterpreted". I could open the commentaries that I have and quote from them, but those who write them wouldn't fare any better than I do. I have the hebrew and can draw my own understanding from it, based on my own ongoing attempt to learn the language. My walls are covered with hebrew and I, as yet, can't read one word out of seven. But I do have a word(s) for word, paraprased translation that reads right to left, as the language is written. I also use word based commentarries. But all my {wise men} seem to disagree with your interpretations. They could be wrong, I've certainly found many things they've written, that I myself don't agree with. I respect your opinion, but not any more than I do the opinions of my wise men. It doesn't mean that I cannot learn from you and them. OK, so we disagree on many things. I've found that those you disagree with make better teachers than those with whom you always agree. I don't need teachers who will teach me the things that I already know. I will go on sharing ideas with those whom I disagree, on the chance that they believe as I do, that disagreement leeds to wisdom, more so than a harmony of ideas does. GD bless, ....Michael

[Moses]

Michael, Your words are truly words of wisdom. I have truly enjoyed sharing with you and will continue to read the things you write and learn from them.
Shalom, Marietta

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hi Marietta
You wrote:
<font color=black>My question was where in the scriptures do you find the term "the goy of Israel."</font> Genesis 35
10) And Elohim said to him, Your name is Jacob; your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name; and he called his name Israel.
11) And Elohim said to him (Israel), I am El Shaddai. Be fruitful and multiply. A goy and a company of goyim will be from you, and kings shall come from your loins.

Exodus 19:6
and you (the Israelites) will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy goy.

Jeremiah 31:36
If these ordinances depart from before me says <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a goy before me...

Ezekiel 37:21-22
So says <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the goyim, there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.

And I will make them one goy in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two goyim anymore; and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.</font>

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Marietta, you wrote:
<font color=black>If you are above another you don't need worship. A being only desires worship if they are insecure and in need of something. The 'First Source' of all things needs 'Nothing.'</font> This makes complete sense to me and I totally agree.</font>

[Thummim]

The first source of all things, is nothing. Then comes the big bang. *******BOOM! This (before any name), doesn't seek worship. He has no people at all. He has only time, matter, space and the laws that go with these things. The JEWish peoples wrote a book because they needed something to worship that would help them through their fears. Mankind is adept at creating gods. We make them out of all things. It is the righteousness of our gods that shape us into righteous beings. Conversely, it is the unrighteousness of our gods that give us permission to do the evil things that we sometimes hold within our hearts. Worshiping the god that exists before all things is more of a scientific adventure. We gain knowledge through this effort, but gain little moral advantage. The JEWish GD is Yahudah. His name is YHWH. Worshipping him is worshipping how the JEWish peoples view their Eloheem. The GD of Yahudah likes to be worshipped. This GD teaches us that "rules" are good things. Learning this lessen and abiding by it, makes our lives better. My own personal faith exists somewhere between the god who is the first source of all things and the GD that invests his name, (YHWH, hashem), in his peoples. I love science and I love moral values. Most of all, I love being a part of the JEWish peoples and sharing their faith with them. Whether or not my soul is saved means very little to me. If having a saved soul meant being separated from the JEWish people, I would utterly reject any such salvation. Given that the god of christianity has burnt more JEWish children than molech, I cannot be drawn to him. At least YHWH has a name to wrap his people in. Getting back to the central idea of this thread, though the talmud has some bad commentary, I'm free to reject it. Perhaps the ultimate test of righteousness is being able to reject a bad idea and move towards a good one. Shalom all, ---Michael