The Crucified Saviour

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Tammuz of Mesopotamia 1160 BC.
Tammuz was a god of Assyria, Babylonia and Sumeria where he was known as Dumuzi. He is commemorated in the name of the month of June, Du'uzu, the fourth month of a year which begins at the spring equinox. The fullest history extant of this saviour is probably that of Ctesias (400 BC), author of Persika. The poet has perpetuated his memory in rhyme.
Trust, ye saints, your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured. Tammuz was crucified as an atonement offering:
Trust ye in God, for out of his loins salvation has come unto us. Julius Firmicus speaks of this God rising from the dead for the salvation of the world. This saviour which long preceded the advent of Christ, filled the same role in sacred history.

Wittoba of the Telingonesic 552 BC.
Wittoba is represented in his story with nail-holes in his hands and the soles of his feet. Nails, hammers and pincers are constantly seen represented on his crucifixes and are objects of adoration among his followers, just as the iron crown of Lombardy has within it a nail claimed to be of his true original cross, and is much admired and venerated for that reason. The worship of this crucified God prevails chiefly in the Travancore and other southern states of India in the region of Madura.

Iao of Nepal 622 BC.
The Celtic Druids depict their god Hesus as having been crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other, and that this occurred long before the Christian era.

The elephant, being the largest animal known, was chosen to represent the magnitude of the sins of the world, while the lamb, from its proverbial innocent nature, was chosen to represent the innocence of the victim, the god offered as a propitiatory sacrifice. We have the Lamb of God taking away the sins of the world. This legend was found in Gaul long before Jesus Christ was known to history.

Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.
Historical authority of the crucifixion of this Mexican god is explicit, unequivocal and ineffaceable. The evidence is tangible, and indelibly engraven upon metal plates. One of these plates represents him as having been crucified on a mountain. Another represents him as having been crucified in the heavens, as St Justin tells us Christ was. Sometimes he is represented as having been nailed to a cross, sometimes with two thieves hanging with him, and sometimes as hanging with a cross in his hand.

Quirinius of Rome 506 BC.
The crucifixion of this Roman saviour is remarkable for the parallel features to that of the Judaean saviour, not only in the circumstances of his crucifixion, but also in much of his antecedent life.

He is represented, like Christ: As having been conceived and brought forth by a virgin. His life was sought by the reigning king, Amulius. He was of royal blood, his mother being of kingly descent. He was put to death by wicked hands or crucified. At his mortal exit the whole earth is said to have been enveloped in darkness, as in the case of Christ, Krishna, and Prometheus. And finally he is resurrected, and ascends back to heaven.
Prometheus 547 B.C.
The crucifixion of Prometheus of Caucasus, described by Seneca, Hesiod, and other writers, states that he was nailed to an upright beam of timber, to which were affixed extended arms of wood, and that this cross was situated near the Caspian Straits. The modern story of this crucified God, which has him bound to a rock for thirty years, while vultures preyed upon his vitals, is a Christian fraud.

The poet, in portraying his propitiatory offering, says:

Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?–Yes, 'tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature's sin. It is doubtful whether there is to be found in the whole range of Greek letters deeper pathos than that of the divine woe of the beneficent demigod Prometheus, crucified on his Scythian crags for his love to mortals. When he dies: That the whole frame of nature became convulsed. The earth shook, the rocks were rent, the graves were opened, and in a storm, which seemed to threaten the dissolution of the universe, the solemn scene forever closed, and Our Lord and saviour Prometheus gave up the ghost. The cause for which he suffered was his love for the human race. The whole story of Prometheus' crucifixion, burial and resurrection was acted in pantomime in Athens five hundred years before Christ, which proves its great antiquity. Minutius Felix, one of the most popular Christian writers of the second century addresses the people of Rome:
Your victorious trophies not only represent a simple cross, but a cross with a man on it, and this man St. Jerome calls a god.
Thulis of Egypt 1700 BC.
Thulis of Egypt, whence comes Ultima Thule, died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago.

Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the gods.

This Egyptian saviour appears also to have been known as Zulis. His history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years BC of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple. Twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years he lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became the judge of the dead, or of souls in a future state. He came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.

Indra of Tibet 725 BC.
This Tibetan saviour is shown nailed to the cross. There are five wounds, representing the nail-holes and the piercing of the side. The antiquity of the story is beyond dispute.

Marvellous stories are told of the birth of the Divine Redeemer. His mother was a virgin of black complexion, and hence his complexion was of the ebony hue, as in the case of Christ and some other sin-atoning saviours. He descended from heaven on a mission of benevolence, and ascended back to the heavenly mansion after his crucifixion. He led a life of strict celibacy, which, he taught, was essential to true holiness. He inculcated great tenderness toward all living beings. He could walk upon the water or upon the air; he could foretell future events with great accuracy. He practised the most devout contemplation, severe discipline of the body and mind, and completely subdued his passions. He was worshiped as a god who had existed as a spirit from all eternity, and his followers were called Heavenly Teachers.

Alcestos of Euripides 600 BC.
A less usual crucified God was Alcestos, who was female, the only example of a feminine God atoning for the sins of the world upon the cross. The doctrine of the trinity and atoning offering for sin was inculcated as a part of her religion.

Attis of Phrygia 1170 BC.
Speaking of this crucified Messiah, the Anacalypsis informs us that several histories are given of him, but all concur in representing him as having been an atoning offering for sin. And the Latin phrase suspensus lingo, found in his history, indicates the manner of his death. He was suspended on a tree, crucified, buried and rose again.

Crite of Chaldaea 1200 BC.
The Chaldeans have noted in their sacred books the crucifixion of a god with the above name. He was also known as the Redeemer, and was styled the Ever Blessed Son of God, the saviour of the Race, the Atoning Offering for an Angry God. When he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.

Bali of Orissa 725 BC.
In Orissa, in Asia, they have the story of a crucified God, known by several names, including the above, all of which, we are told, signify Lord Second, his being the second person or second member of the trinity. Most of the crucified gods occupied that position in a trinity of gods, the Son, in all cases, being the atoning offering. This God Bali was also called Baliu, and sometimes Bel. Monuments of this crucified God, bearing great age, may be found amid the ruins of the magnificent city of Mahabalipore, partially buried amongst the figures of the temple.

Mithras of Persia 600 BC.
This Persian God was slain upon the cross to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world. He was born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree. Christian writers both speak of his being slain, and yet both omit to speak of the manner in which he was put to death.

Devatat of Siam, Ixion of Rome, Apollonius of Tyana in Cappadocia, are all reported to have died on the cross."

Ixion, 400 BC, was crucified on a wheel, the rim representing the world, and the spokes constituting the cross. He bore the burden of the world, the sins of the world, on his back while suspended on the cross. He was therefore called the crucified spirit of the world.
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[Thummim]

Sandy, this is interesting material. Do you have a book on the gods? Where did you get this materal? I would like to quote some of these things once in a while, but I would have to reference it so others could look it up for themselves. So the christian plan for saving the worlds peoples had already been tried many times before. I guess that this makes christianities version just another attempt at previous failures. This isn't the kind of information that christians would want to hear about. Shabbot Shalom, ....Michael

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hi thummim
The information comes from a book called:

World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours
by Kersey Graves</font>

[Thummim]

Thank you Sandy, for the information. I've written it down. This sounds like something that I've got to read. The material within is startling. You come up with some very interesting facts. Christianity seems to have traveled a well used road. ....Michael

[OldShepherd]

Hello Sandy,

<DD>I saw this thread linked over at another forum by Thummin. Every so often someone posts this nonsense on some forum or other, just anything to trash Christianity. I don't know how many times I have exposed this garbage. Like a lot of other garage sale/flea market books. The so-called "Sixteen Crucified Saviors" is a reprint of a 19th century book. It not used as a text or reference in any school, college or university. And the reason is that it is not researched or documented. I have searched for the first five names you listed Tammuz, Wittoba of the Telingonesic, Iao of Nepal, Queszacoatl, and Quirinius, in the Encyclopedia Mythica, and through a web search. Here are the results. Not one of them are said to be crucified, none, nada, zero. Not one of these so-called crucified saviors was a savior of anything. None, nada, zero. And only one resurrects.

http://www.pantheon.org/search.html

<DD>Some people will believe anything, so long as it reaffirms their prejudices, presuppositions, and assumptions. Any kind of trash book or web site. The only requirement, it must trash and bash Christianity.

<font color=blue>Tammuz. The Akkadian vegetation-god, counterpart of the Sumerian Damuzi and the symbol of death and rebirth in nature. He is the son of Ea. and husband of Ishtar. Each year he dies in the hot summer (in the month tammus, June/July) and his soul is taken by the Gallu demons to the underworld. Woe and desolation fall upon the earth, and Ishtar leads the world in lamentation. She then descends to the nether world, ruled by Ereshkigal, and after many trials succeeds in bringing him back, as a result of which fertility and joy return to the earth. In Syria he was identified with Adonis.

http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/t/tammuz.html

The cult of Dumuzi the Shepherd (Uruk, fourth millennium BC) "comprises both happy celebration of the marriage of the god with Inanna (who, originally, it seems, was the goddess of the communal storehouse) and bitter laments when he dies as the dry heat of summer yellows the pastures and lambing, calving, and milking come to an end.:
- Thorkild Jacobsen, The Treasures of Darkness

http://www.fireplug.net/~rshand/restricted/streams/scripts/tammuz.html

(tä´mz), ancient nature deity worshiped in Babylonia. A god of agriculture and flocks, he personified the creative powers of spring. He was loved by the fertility goddess Ishtar, who, according to one legend, was so grief-stricken at his death that she contrived to enter the underworld to get him back. According to another legend, she killed him and later restored him to life. These legends and his festival, commemorating the yearly death and rebirth of vegetation, corresponded to the festivals of the Phoenician and Greek Adonis and of the Phrygian Attis. The Sumerian name of Tammuz was Dumuzi. In the Bible his disappearance is mourned by the women of Jerusalem (Ezek. 8.14).

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ta/Tammuz.html

<B>Wittoba of the Telingonesic</B>

Encyclopedia Mythica Nothing Found! Only references online quotes from "Sixteen Crucified Savior."

<B>Iao of Nepal</B>

Iao. The Polynesian name for the Supreme Being. See Io. (Ency Myth)

Io. The supreme god of the Maori and other Polynesian peoples. Io ("core") is considered to be 'all-knowing' and 'eternal' and his name may only be whispered. Io consists of both a male (Te Io Ora) and female (Io Wahine) substance. He dwells above the sky in Te Toi-o-nga-Rango, the highest heaven of the twelve upper worlds. (Ency Myth)

<B>Quezalcoatl of Mexico 587 BC.</B>

Encyclopedia Mythica Nothing Found!

"Deciding on a ruse, Texcatlipoca crept into Quetzalcoatl's sanctuary with two minor gods, also evil, and frightened him by demonstrating a new invention: the mirror. Feigning friendliness, they disguised him by covering his body with red paint, feathers and a mask. They served him a delicious meal and Texcatlipoca persuaded Quetzalcoatl to drink a beverage of pulque mixed with honey. The concoction made him drunk and the conspirators then slipped a beautiful dancing girl into his room. He awoke the next morning with a hangover and the horrible realization that he had broken his priestly vow of chastity.

Tormented with remorse, Quetzalcoatl wandered in self-imposed exile for twenty years and then ended up near what is today the Gulf port of Coatzocoalcos. There he said goodbye to a loyal band of weeping disciples, promising to return at some future time. He sailed for Yucatan, where he became equally admired by the Maya, who called him Kulkulcan. Finally, some thirty years later, he died by immolating himself on a self-made funeral pyre."

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/history/jtuck/jtquetzalcoatl.html

<B>Quirinius of Rome 506 BC.</B>

Encyclopedia Mythica Nothing Found! Only references online, quotes from "Sixteen Crucified Savior."</font>

<DD>Below is a short excerpt from a lengthy well documented, and researched refutation of all sixteen supposedly crucified, alleged saviors. This documents that none, as in zero of them were crucified.

<font color=blue>Sixteen Saviors Crucified

One of the favorite anti-missionary tactics is to make up lies about what pagans believe and claim that there are pagan stories that the gospels were derived from. There is a list of 16 "Crucified Saviours" going around the internet that contains one lie after another about supposed "gods" that were "crucified" the same way Y'shua was. The list is...
1.. Krishna of India, 1200 BC
2.. Sakia of Hinduism, 600 BC
3.. Thammuz of Syria, 1160 BC
4.. Wittoba of Tellingonesic, 552 BC
5.. Iao of Nepaul, 622 BC
6.. Hesus of Celtic Druids, 834 BC
7.. Quexalcote of Mexico, 587 BC
8.. Quirinus of Rome, 506 BC
9.. AESCHYLUS) PROMETHEUS, 547 BC
10.. Thulis of Egypt, 1700 BC
11.. Indra of Tibet, 725 BC
12.. Alcestos of Euripides, 600 BC
13.. Atys, Attis of Phrygia , 1170 BC
14.. Crite of Chaldea, 1200 BC
15.. Bali of Orissa , 725 BC
16.. Mithra of Persia, 600 BC

One basically problem with this list is that there's no legend that ANY of them were crucified. www.brittanica.com gives Quirinius as the name given to Romulus after he was deified. Roman legend does not teach he was crucified, rather it teaches that one day, during a storm, the god of war carried him to heaven - thus the Roman legend is that Quirinius never died. Yet he's listed in Kersey Graves' "16 crucified saviours". Sakia died of old age at the age of 80 due to natural causes. Krishnah was killed in battle by an arrow, not crucified. Thammuz was killed by a wild boar, not crucified. Atys/Attis was said to have (accidently) killed himself when he castrated himself in a moment of madness (and caused more injury than he intended to himself). And Roman legend teaches that Prometheus was immortal and thus never died because he COULD NOT die.

Yet all these "gods" are listed in Kersey Graves' "16 Crucified Saviours" as pagan legends that are strikingly similar to the story of the crucifixion of Y'shua. Where's the similarity to any of them???? I searched, but could find no record of Indra of Hinduism ever dying. Hesus was never considered human, and thus never subject to death. No record of him dying as a "god" either. Iao is a transliteration of the Name of the G-d of Israel. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-03.htm gives one explanation of how Iao was derived from YHWH and http://www.angelfire.com/nm/YAHUAHSHUA/ lists "Iao" as a variant of "YHWH" / "YHW". So any account one may have come up with comparing a "God" named "Iao" with Y'shua may simply be a pagan description of who the G-d of Israel was.

Our only source for 5 of these "gods" is from anti-missionary sources. In other words, there's no record of these 5 ever existing in the records of history and may have been complete fabrications of Graves, Higgs, or other haters of the gospel. These 5 are... 1.. Quexiacote 2.. Thulis 3.. Alcestos 4.. Bali 5.. Crite</font>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Teshuvah_Talk/message/5640

[OldShepherd]

Sandy,

<DD>And anyone else who <B><I>claims</B></I> to be looking for the truth. Here are two more sites which expose Kersey Graves, "<I>The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors</I>", published in 1850 (+/-), for the piece of doggy doo that it is. This first link is Infidels.Org, a group of admittedly anti-Christian, anti-Bible, Infidels (as their name implies). The entire book can be read at this site. And while this group would do almost anything to destroy or undermine the Bible and Christianity, this is the disclaimer at the top of each chapter of the book at their site. Even they caution readers to not trust anything in the book.

"<font color=blue>Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous freethinkers; the inclusion of <I>The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors</I> in the Secular Web's Historical Library does <U>not</U> constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting <U>anything</U> in this book.</font>"

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/

http://www.messianicart.com/chazak/copycatvirgin.htm

<DD>Sandy, just curious, how is my credibility now<B>?</B>

[Spying]

Hi Old Shepherd,

Sir, good morning to you and happy Sabbath. If you don't mind me answering, I would say that it is improving dramatically in Sandy's eyes. Thus far, this is a show piece thread. You have an individual presenting certain information which is designed to cast Messiah and those who believe in him in the worst possible light. You have another individual who chimes in showing his interest who loves that Messiah is being cast in a bad light, but he like you desires to have some documentation. Well, you have given him that documentation. Now, we will see if I am granted the privilege of locking up another thread, won't we?

Sincerely, Spying

[don]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Old Shepherd,

Sir, good morning to you and happy Sabbath. If you don't mind me answering, I would say that it is improving dramatically in Sandy's eyes. Thus far, this is a show piece thread. You have an individual presenting certain information which is designed to cast Messiah and those who believe in him in the worst possible light. You have another individual who chimes in showing his interest who loves that Messiah is being cast in a bad light, but he like you desires to have some documentation. Well, you have given him that documentation. Now, we will see if I am granted the privilege of locking up another thread, won't we?

Sincerely, Spying


==============================================

Spying

The Babyonian Mystery Religions go all the way back to Nimrod
and they are still here today under the Guise of a thing known as christianity.

All of these so-called Savior gawds were a part of the mystery religion system.

The Latest version but of course is the J.E.Z.U.S CHRIST of Christianity.

The RELIGION Christianity came from a dude known as Emperor Constantine and his Gawd was the SUN gawd Mirthras who he managed to confuse with Sol Deus and Christos.

He is also the dude that set in motion the TRINITY doctrine [in 325] of his new religion known as Catholicism,which at that time was a blend of all three of these cults.

As time went on his church following in his personal foot steps they contunied to assorb more and more pagan ways ,gawds and practices.


If you look at factual history the rest of Christianity came from this pagan church that Constantine had built.


[And I am referring to the Institutions known by that Name]

Even the NT scriptures where cannonized by this church in 367 or 397 (I forget which) and there truly wasn't a thing known as the NT until that time.


The jesuit is a master at half truths and out and out right LIES.

Don't be fooled by him!


His history is long and sorted.

[don]

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscussion2/_disc43/000000e8.htm

[Spying]

Hi Don,

Happy Sabbath to you, Brother. I see no half truths or outright lies by Old Shepherd on this thread.

As for the link that you sent me to. I went there. I paged down the chapters until I got to the last one. I saw where I could give them my money to get their book. Now, what do we call that? We call that <B>"merchant preachers"</b>, don't we?

There have been times that Old Shepherd has given me alot more than what I wanted at any particular time, but he has always given it to me freely. He has never asked me for money. If the merchant preachers don't want this thread locked up, then let them come here and defend themselves like you have done. That I respect.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Hi Spying
It doesn't matter to me whether you lock this thread or not.

I posted the original information as a curiosity. As to whether each of these sixteen were actually crucified I do not know. But the article does remind us of the many similarities between New Testament ideas and earlier religions.

Virgin Birth, Sacred Marriage, Resurrection (http://www.fireplug.net/~rshand/restricted/reflections/messiah/pagan.html)

"By declaring the logos, the first begotten of God, our master Jesus Christ to be born of a virgin, without any human mixture, we (Christians) say no more in this than what you (pagans) say of those whom you style the sons of Jove.
"As to the son of God called Jesus, should we allow him to be nothing more than man, yet the title of the son of God is very justifiable. Upon the account of his wisdom, considering that you (pagans) have your Mercury in worship under the title of the word a messenger of God. As to his, (that is Jesus Christ's) being born of a virgin, you have your Perseus to balance that."
- Justin Martyr, First Apology, Volume I, chapter 22

"It is interesting that the sacred marriage was expressed in the earliest agricultural civilizations in the West as a union between the mortal male and the divine female, whereas during the Middle Ages the sacred marriage was most commonly depicted as a union between the feminine (human) soul and the divine male, Christ. The earlier version of the sacred marriage took place at the center of society and was reenacted publicly in ritual, whereas the bridal mysticism of medieval Christianity was an inner, subjective phenomenon."
- An Encyclopedia of Archetypal Symbolism

Ptah, as a solar god, "died and rose again, and this became the resurrection, and the way into a future life as the founder of Egyptian eschatology. Atum, son of Ptah likewise became a voluntary sacrifice as the source of life. The father who was blended with the mother in Atum, is portrayed as the creator of mankind by the shedding of his own blood [in cutting his member]....Later, this was ritually done to Attis, Adonis, Tammuz, Bacchus, Dionysus, all facsimiles of Osiris, all castrated on the tree of life, their testicles still glittering on today's Yuletide trees."
- Peter Tompkins, The Magic of Obelisks
Christ-Krishna Connection
Part 1: Two Divine Like Lives! (http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa122200a.htm)
Part 2: It's In Thy Names! (http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa122200b.htm)
Part 3: Similar They Spake! (http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa122200c.htm)

Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth
Part One (http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/ChristMyth/ChristMythPart1.html)
Part Two (http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/ChristMyth/ChristMythPart2.html)
Part Three (http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/ChristMyth/ChristMythPart3.html)
Part Four (http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/JGJackson/ChristMyth/ChristMythPart4.html)

Someone wrote (I am not sure who):

Here is a small list of writers that lived during the time of Jesus, aside from two forged passages in the work of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the work of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ in this mass of Jewish and Pagan writers:
Appian
Apollonius
Arrian
Auls Gellius
Columella
Damis
Dion Pruseus
Dio Chrysostom
Epictetus
Favorinus
Florus Lucius
Hermogones
Italicus
Josephus
Justus of Tiberius
Juvenal
Lucanus
Lucian
Lysias
Martial
Paterculus
Persius
Petronius
Phaedrus
Philo-Judaeus
Phlegon
Pliny the Elder
Pliny the Younger
Pompon Mela
Plutarch
Ptolemy
Quintilian
Quintius Curtius
Seneca
Silius
Statius
Suetonius
Tacitus
Theon of Smyran
Valerius Flaccus
Valerius Maximus
Imagine an event so important to the history and well being of man not being recorded by a single writer of the time it occurred. It is liken to man landing on the moon and walking on it for the first time in the history of man, and not have a single person write about it during the time it occurred. I make no claims concerning any of this. It is up to the reader to verify, believe or disbelieve.

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

You are to be commended for your openmindness. The level of your curiosity about Messiah Yahushua is quite evident. Aften sixteen crucified, I understand why you are making no claims concerning what you have written.

When you can make some claims, and when we can all benefit from your research, please let us know. Then, I will take you seriously again.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Hi Spying

I have no expectations. We are on opposite sides of the fence.

It matters not whether you agree or disagree with my posts. I have the right to believe as I wish, just as you or anyone else has the right to believe as they wish.

As to my curiosity, it is not toward Iesous/Jesus/Yahushua, but towards the many similarities concerning him and earlier religions. And I feel that the info and links provide in my last post were just as credible as anyone elses.

[OldShepherd]

Sandy,

<DD>And other truth seekers, I'm also posting this information only as a curiosity. As to whether any of it is true I do not know. But the articles do remind us of the many, many similarities between Old Testament ideas and earlier religions.
<DD><I>I too make no claims concerning any of this. It is up to the reader to verify, believe or disbelieve.</I> In all fairness, if we are going to hint, allege, suggest, and imply that some or all of the New Testament is of pagan origin because it <B><I>might</B></I> be similar to some unverified, undocumented information we found in some trash book or online then lets not stop there lets look at how the entire Bible, <B><I>all</B></I> the events and characters, Old Testament and New, are similar to pagan myths and legends.

------------------------------------------

<font color=blue>Many stories in the Old Testament are actually stories taken from earlier civilizations and cultures.

On those many journeys Abraham learns various myths and experiences various cultures. These are all blended into the religious truths he teaches his children and grandchildren.

The story of sin (ADAM and EVE) is very similar to a Babylonian myth which describes the origin of human evil.

The story of Noe and the flood is another story taken from an earlier tale that originated in Babylon. Abraham would likely have heard both stories as he journeyed through parts of Babylon.

The tower of Babel is the final of the pre-historic myths of the early chapters of Genesis. The tower is remarkably like towers erected in Babylon to their gods. The story describes human activity at variance with God (sin). Eventually such activity places the participants at odds with each other and their tongues are confused. They can no longer understand one another.

http://208.56.246.41/maxpages/Our_Old_Testament_Roots

Ugaritic Torah -- Old Testament

Several of the Psalms were simply adapted from Ugaritic sources; the story of the flood has a near mirror image in Ugaritic literature; and the language of the Bible is greatly illuminated by the language of Ugarit.

One example of this is found in Proverbs 26:23. In the Hebrew text Mygys Psk is divided just as it is here. This has caused commentators quite a bit of confusion over the centuries, for what does "silver lips" mean? The discovery of the Ugaritic texts has helped us to understand that the word was divided incorrectly by the Hebrew scribe (who was as unfamiliar as we are with what the words were supposed to mean). Instead of the two words above, the Ugaritic texts lead us to divide the two words as Mygysps k which means "like silver". This makes eminently more sense in context than the word mistakenly divided by the Hebrew scribe who was unfamiliar with the second word; so he divided into two words which he did know even though it made no sense.
Another example occurs in Ps 89:20.

Besides single words being illuminated by the Ugaritic texts, entire ideas or complexes of ideas have parallels in the literature. For example, in Proverbs 9:1-18 wisdom and folly are personified as women. In point of fact, KTU 1,7 VI 2-45 is nearly identical to Proverbs 9:1ff. (The abbreviation KTU stands for "Keilalphabetische Texte aus Ugarit", the standard collection of this material. The numbers are what we might call the chapter and verse). KTU 1.114:2-4 says-

"Eat, o Gods, and drink, drink wine till you are sated

Which is very similar to Proverbs 9:5;

"Come, eat of my food and drink wine that I have mixed".

Biblical poetry follows Ugaritc poetry in form and function. There is parallelism, qinah metre, bi and tri colas, and all of the poetic tools found in the Bible are found at Ugarit.

In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Phoenician hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel,

In 2 Kings 22:19-22 we read of Yahweh meeting with his heavenly council. This is the very description of heaven which one finds in the Ugaritic texts. For in those texts the "sons of god" are the sons of El.

Asherah, plays a very important role in the Old Testament. There she is called the wife of Baal; but she is also known as the consort of Yahweh! That is, among some Yahwists, Ahserah is Yahweh's female counterpart! Inscriptions found at Kuntillet `Ajrud (dated between 850 and 750 BC) say:

I bless you through Yahweh of Samaria, and through his Asherah!

And at `El Qom (from the same period) this inscription:

Uriyahu, the king, has written this. Blessed be Uriyahu through Yahweh,
and his enemies have been conquered through Yahweh's Asherah.

One of the most famous of the lesser deities at Ugarit was a chap named Dan'il. There is little doubt that this figure corresponds to the Biblical Daniel; while predating him by several centuries. His story is found in KTU 1.17 - 1.19.

Yet another interesting parallel between Israel and Ugarit is the yearly ritual known as the sending out of the "scapegoats"; one for god and one for a demon. The Biblical text which relates this procedure is Leviticus 16:1-34. In this text a goat is sent into the wilderness for Azazel (a demon) and one is sent into the wilderness for Yahweh. KTU 1.127 relates the same procedure at Ugarit; with one notable difference -- at Ugarit a woman priest was involved in the rite as well.

One of the more interesting aspects of this ancestor worship at Ugarit was the "festive meal" that the worshipper shared with the departed, called the "marzeach" (cf. Jer 16:5// with KTU 1.17 I 26-28 and KTU 1.20-22). This was, to the dwellers of Ugarit, what the Passover was to Israel and the Lord's Supper to the Church.

But, it must be said, the Israelites were not interested in the Sea and were not boat builders or sailors in any sense of the word. The Ugaritic god of the sea, Baal Zaphon, was the patron of sailors. Before a journey Ugaritic sailors made offerings and prayed to Baal Zaphon in hopes of a safe and profitable journey (cf. KTU 2.38, and KTU 2.40). Psalm 107 was borrowed from Northern Canaan and reflects this attitude towards sailing and trade.

http://phoenicia.org/ugarbibl.html

[OldShepherd]

<font color=blue>The form of the psalms and their use in worship services originated with Pagan nations surrounding Israel: Assyria, Babylon, Canaan and Egypt. The Jewish psalms were written during the various monarchies, prior to the exile of 586 BCE. A few of the psalms can be dated because they with specific historical events. Actual authorship is mostly unknown.

Because of the variety of forms used in the writing, the book seems to have been written by many authors. Internal indicators suggest that various parts of the book were written during many eras in the history of Israel. Some theologians now believe that the book had its origins in a liturgy from an unknown Pagan fertility-cult which celebrated the sexual union of a God and a Goddess (perhaps Tammuz and Ishtar).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_otb3.htm

Christians maintain that the difference between their religion and all other is that theirs is based on history, all others are based on myth. Some research into this claim shows that most of the incidents of the Old Testament can be found in the myths and legends of older cultures. The creation, the flood, the tower of Babel, the trials of Abraham, even the miracles of Moses are Jewish adaptations of older Pagan myths. Biblical scholars date the earliest of the Old Testament writing around 960 B.C.E. All of the Pagan myths quoted are much, much older.

All of us are familiar with the story of Noah, but few of us has heard the Chaldean myth of the flood.

The deity Cronos appeared to him (Xisuthrus) in a vision and warned him that upon the fifteenth day of the month Desius there would be a flood, by which mankind would be destroyed. He therefore enjoined him to build a vessel, and take with him into it his friends and relations, and to convey on board everything necessary to sustain life, together with all the different animals, both birds and quadrupeds, and trust himself fearlessly to the deep. After the flood had been upon the earth, and was in time abated, Xisutrus sent out birds from the vessel. He therefore made an opening in the vessel, and upon looking out found that it was stranded upon the side of some mountain.1

The legends of Moses leading the children of Israel out of Egypt is a retelling of the story of Bacchus, the Sun-god.

Bacchus had a rod with which he performed miracles, and which he could change into a serpent at pleasure. he passed the Red Sea, dry shod, at the head of his army. By the same mighty wand, he drew water from the rock, and wherever they marched, the land flowed with wine, milk and honey.2

http://realmagick.com/articles/14/14.html

"This resistance was greatly weakened by the discoveries of George Smith, that the so-called inspired account of creation personally communicated to Moses by the Jewish god, was, after all, only an uninspired pagan fable, copied into the Jewish books from Babylon."

http://www.christianism.com/appendicies/I.html

Here are some examples of plagiarism and distortions in the Bible using the pesher technique:

1. The Creation myth is based on the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish.

2. The Old Testament version of the early life of Moses is based on the saga of the Babylonian King Sargon. The Moses myth is really a compilation of 3 antecedent ones as well as other stories:

a. From India there was the Hindu myth when Kali gave birth to the Sun God and placed him in a basket of rushes on the Ganges.

b. The same myth was reproduced for Sargon, the King of Akkad, in the third millennium BC: King Sargon, a son of a virgin bride of God, was set afloat on the river and rescued by the Divine midwife. He then spent a period of exile in the wilderness where he was tempted by evil spirits and later was elevated to the throne. The fatherless hero born of waters was a universal image of the Saviour king and has appeared in the myths of Persius, Horus, Jason, Oedipus, Joshua and Jesus.

c. An Egyptian model existed: The miracles attributed to Moses have been derived from Egyptian myths for there is an Egyptian model for the myth of Moses in Heracles of Canopus.

3. Other stories added to the myth include:

* The Parting of the Waters, as attributed to both Kali crossing the Ganges and to Isis.

* Mother Rhea striking water from a rock.

* She had also given Law tablets on a Holy mountain.

4. The story of the Ten Commandments which were supposedly given to Moses on the Mount was copied from:

i The story of the Canaanite god Baal-Berith, the "God of the Covenant".

ii The Commandments of the Buddhist Decalogue.

iii The life of Zoroaster who had also received the Law from Ahura Mazda from the mountain top, and

iv King Hammurabi who received the Laws from the Babylonian God from a mountain top also.

5. Many of the miracles of Exodus had been described in the life of Isis. Moses' flowering rod, river of blood and tablets of the law were all symbols of Isis. Moses' miracle of drawing water from the rock was first performed by Mother Rhea after she gave birth to Zeus.

6. Joshua stopping the Sun had been also a feat of Isis and Hecata (Diana, Moon Goddess, Queen of Heaven, Patron of midwives) and the Thessalian Great Mother.</font>

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~jdm/Books/Lfd.htm

<font size=3><B>Caveat Emptor!</font></B>

[don]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Don,

Happy Sabbath to you, Brother. I see no half truths or outright lies by Old Shepherd on this thread.

As for the link that you sent me to. I went there. I paged down the chapters until I got to the last one. I saw where I could give them my money to get their book. Now, what do we call that? We call that <B>"merchant preachers"</b>, don't we?

There have been times that Old Shepherd has given me alot more than what I wanted at any particular time, but he has always given it to me freely. He has never asked me for money. If the merchant preachers don't want this thread locked up, then let them come here and defend themselves like you have done. That I respect.

Sincerely, Spying


Spying I would hardly call a book store a Merchant preacher


Commowealth Books
PO Box 11476
Salt Lake City, UT 84147-0476


Did you bother to read any of the information in the book that was FREE online???

[Sandy]

Hi Old Shepherd
Thank you for the interesting post. I am familiar with some of these, but not all.

I do not know about others here, but for me personally such things are disturbing. That is why earlier this year I started an Egroup called Are We Ostriches?

[Spying]

Hi Don,

Good day to you. You know, you may have me here. I really don't know the affiliation of Commonwealth Books so I really don't know if they are Merchant Preachers. If Commonwealth Books is not affiliated with an individual or an organization which is attempting to sell me on their view of things, then I am wrong, and you have increased your stature in my estimation by pointing out my error.

I look at it in this manner. I only have a certain amount of time each day. I hardly have time to read all the posts here at this forum and hardly time to reflect and respond in a proper fashion to the ones that I am required to respond to. Of course some posts and subjects take more time than others, and my problem with time has nothing to do with the amount of posting done here at this forum. I run out of time when I am talking to few or many. So, I won't follow links very far. My major concern first is identification. I mean, who is it that is telling me this? So, I will quickly make a determination like I did with Commonwealth Books rightly or wrongly.

I have spent an enormous amount of time spying in my life. What I have seen, I freely communicate to those interested in buying what I have to say. So, I also have something to sell, and I am a salesman just learning how to sell. What I have to sell will cost you your time and effort. So, if you want to buy or sell to or from me, then you need to go back to the article that you wanted me to read, and you need to read it, becoming familiar with the point of view and arguments, and then you can use your acquired knowledge to approach and correct and sell me. Basically, it is salesmanship. If you got a product, come here and sell it like you did to me with the Sacred Names. You know I will buy from you, that I will spend the time to understand what you are saying, but don't ever even begin to think that you can sell the truth to me for money.

Sincerely, Spying

[OldShepherd]

Don,

<DD>I really want to thank you for linking to this thread from Qumran Bet.

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscuss...43/000000e8.htm

<DD>I was reluctant to respond, on this forum, to posts at QB, which in a cowardly, back stabbing manner, misquote my posts here and attack me, while I do not have the privilege of responding. But since you have opened the door, now I can reply. Please feel free to notify the moderator over there, but too bad she will not be able to cover up and hide the truth by deleting all my posts here, as she does there.

<DD>Here the moderator linked to a website which, as Spying noted, is hawking a book "<I>Mystery Babylon and the Lost Ten Tribes in the End Time</I>" for the low, low price of only, $19.95 + 2.50 postage. This links directly to the book without going through the other forum.

http://www.taiga.com/~m_m/MBChapter5.htm

<DD>In response to an objection elsewhere, re: booksellers and merchant preachers. It is irrelevant. Either way the guy who wrote the book makes money. The book does not have an ISBN number and is only available from this one so-called bookstore. If it were a legitimate book, published by a legitimate publisher, it would have an ISBN number.
<DD>BTW, since it is not copyrighted, thus in the public domain, the entire book <B><I>is</B></I> available online.

<DD>The moderator at QB had this to say about "<I>Misery Babbles On</I>". Notice how she praises it as being "<I><B>documented well</B></I>".

"<font color=blue>Thanks Nully. He has a very interesting viewpoint and has enlightened me about quite a few subjects. While this was not 'new' to me, <B><I>Mr. Conder documented well.</B></I></font>"

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscussion2/_disc43/000000ea.htm

<DD><B>"<I>Documentation"</B></I> does not mean just posting a bunch of unsubstantiated, unproven, unverified, organic bovine excreta on the 'net or writing a so-called book filled with doggy doo. <B><I>Documentation</B></I> means,

Main Entry: <B>Doc-u-men-ta-tion</B>
Pronunciation: "<I>da-kyu-men-ta-shun, -"men-</I>
Function: <I>noun</I>
Date: 1884
<B>1 :</B> the act or an instance of <B><I>furnishing or authenticating with documents</B></I>
<B>2 a :</B> the provision of <B><I>documents in substantiation</B></I>; also : documentary evidence b (1) : the <B><I>use of historical documents</B></I> (2) : conformity to historical or objective facts (3) : the provision of <B><I>footnotes, appendices, or addenda referring to or containing documentary evidence</B></I>
http://www.m-w.com/home.htm
<DD>Here is a brief quote from the 5th chapter of this so-called "<I>well documented</I>" book. Of the four chapters shown <B><I>none</B></I> list or refer to any specific original sources, no footnotes or endnotes, no documentation whatsoever. Everyone who reads this is just supposed to accept and believe everything the author says. After all it <B><I>is</B></I> in a book, so it must be true. Yeah right, so were Goldilocks and the three bears.

"<font color=blue>As to the ministry of Jesus, a very odd account precedes its beginning: his fast of forty days and forty nights. That one can go without food for forty days is possible, but going without water for that period of time would require a miracle!</font>"

<DD>Note, the first lie<B><I>!</B></I> In this supposedly "<I>well documented</I>" book, even the scriptures are misquoted. Nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus did not drink water during this fast. The only gospel account is Matt 4:2.

"<font color=midnightblue><B>And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights he was afterward an hungered.</B></font>"

"<font color=blue>Even assuming that such a miracle occurred, how do we account for the fact that the story is almost identical to the fast of the mythological savior-Sun-gods? <font color=red><B>(Note, which so-called "<I><U>savior-Sun-gods</U></I>", what books, what original sources?)</font></B> The rest of the story is that, in the midst of his tormenting hunger and thirst<font color=red><B>(Note, the second lie! The scripture says nothing about thirst!)</font></B>, Jesus was tempted by Satan himself, who offered him the world if he would worship him.

Because the story was so pagan in content, a number of early church fathers disputed it and did not want it repeated in the Gospels. <font color=red><B>(Note, which early church fathers? How many? Where? Koolaid anyone?)</font>* * *</B> Although the pagan content of the story has long since been forgotten by the Christian Church, it cannot erase the fact that the same account was known in other mythologies<font color=red><B>(Note, which other <I><U>mythologies</U></I>, here the author should have at least listed a few names. But he only names and quotes one!)</B></font> long before the advent of Christianity. For example, there is the "sacred account" of Buddha, who, while fasting, was tempted by the Prince of Evil, Mara, <B>who offered him the rulership of the world!</B> Here is Buddha¡'s reply: "Take heed, O Mara; . . . I know that the pursuit of religion is better than the empire of the world. You, thinking only of evil lust, would force me to leave all beings without guidance into your power. <B>Avaunt! Get thou away from me!</B>" <font color=red><B>(Note, any reasonable person would want to verify this. What and where are the alleged original sources supposedly quoted from? It is a pack of lies exactly like the quote about Quetzalcoatle, below).</B></font>

"Quetzalcoatle, the virgin-born Mexican Saviour, was also tempted by the devil, and the forty day's fast was found among them."</font>

<DD>See the Mexican historical site below. When I read Conder I knew immediately it was a lie, I had just posted the Quetzalcoatle article a short time before. No temptation by the devil, no forty day fast<B><I>!</B></I> Conder is spewing out puke and all the little idiots are lapping it up and telling everyone how good it is.

"<font color=blue>Deciding on a ruse, Texcatlipoca crept into Quetzalcoatl's sanctuary with two minor gods, also evil, and frightened him by demonstrating a new invention: the mirror. . .They served him a delicious meal and Texcatlipoca persuaded Quetzalcoatl to drink a beverage of pulque mixed with honey. The concoction made him drunk and the conspirators then slipped a beautiful dancing girl into his room. He awoke the next morning with a hangover and the horrible realization that he had broken his priestly vow of chastity.

Tormented with remorse, Quetzalcoatl wandered in self-imposed exile for twenty years and then ended up near what is today the Gulf port of Coatzocoalcos. There he said goodbye to a loyal band of weeping disciples, promising to return at some future time. He sailed for Yucatan, where he became equally admired by the Maya, who called him Kulkulcan. Finally, some thirty years later, he died by immolating himself on a self-made funeral pyre.</font>"

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/hist...etzalcoatl.html

<DD>Throughout "<I>Misery Babbles On</I>", linked above, there is not one single identifiable <B><I>"documents in substantiation", "use of historical documents", or "footnotes, appendices, or addenda referring to or containing documentary evidence."</I> None, Nada, Zero, Zilch!</B></I>

<DD>Although the moderator over there at that other forum linked to this regurgitated dog vomit and said it was "<I>well documented.</I>" Earlier when someone quoted a well known living messianic rabbi, Avi Ben Mordecai, she criticized him saying that the TN'K should be our <B><I>only</B></I> source of truth.

"<font color=blue>It gets to the place on these forums, where everyone has something to say and they go to so & so's book, to this reference book or that commentary, this Rabbi, that preacher.. thinking they may find a way from these to prove the other side wrong. Who is gaining here? Honest seeker's of truth search the Scriptures (TN'K), not just so they have a neat argument or someone will say 'boy, you got him with that answer' but in order to find truth.

I really wish that the people who are going to post here would get their act together and begin to seek truth not doctrine. Most of us have been indoctrinated enough already.</font>

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscussion2/_disc43/00000027.htm

<DD>Quoting a book, a reference book, commentary, Rabbi, or preacher is wrong when someone else does it or it proves the wrong thing. And while Lew White's "<I>Fuzzy Lies Conundrums</I>" also has little or no <B><I>"documents in substantiation", "use of historical documents", or "footnotes, appendices, or addenda referring to or containing documentary evidence"</B></I>, she would not permit someone to criticize the book, although, shortly before this, it had been perfectly acceptable for someone to use White to attack Christianity. Yeah boy, that's really "<I>seeking truth!</I>"

"<font color=blue>This is totally ignorant.. Lew White is not part of this forum. He has never spoken to the posters on this forum. If you do not like his book.. by all means do not buy it or read it. But to post insults here, behind a man's back is an action forbidden by Torah.</font>"

http://qumran.com/HoleyBoardDiscussion2/_disc43/000000e7.htm

<DD>Any garbage books spreading lies about Christianity are welcomed and encouraged but any truthful legitimate criticism of those books is not allowed.

[don]

SIRS

If you are trying to suggest the Qumran Bet in anyway is by posting a link to this book is doing it for $$$$$$$$$$$$,then you both are bold faced liar's.

And jesuit don't thank me for anything!

I don't like you!

And if your going to cry about being kick out of qumran Bet at least tell the truth as to the reasons WHY!

[Spying]

Hi Don,

I am not suggesting anything at all about Qumran. My post to you was about salesmanship. It was about our relationship. I wanted you to know that I would not buy the truth you were attempting to sell me through following links. Our relationship is one on one. I'm here; you're here. So, let's talk. Why run here or there pursuing links which cannot be verified or vouched for? I may be in the dueling business, but I am not going to duel with you through links. This forces each individual to take responsibility for what they bring to this table. If you bring myth, I am sure it will be exposed as myth. If you bring the truth, in time it will be exposed as the truth. If someone's truth is over time shown to actually be myth, should we be happy or sad? It depends if I am on your side or not, doesn't it? I have a belief that we are all on the same side, it is just that we have not been made aware of it yet.

So, how should we deal with each other? I think that we should fight like cats and dogs to determine what it true and expose what it false. Name calling does not expose anything save for our own weakness of argument. Complaining does not expose anything save for our lack of maturity. Use the spirit, Don. Read my posts. Reflect on them. Ask the Father to help you understand what I am saying through His spirit. Ask him to give you an answer through the same spirit. You may be pleasantly surprised what will happen. Use the spirit.

I fully expected you to reply to me by using the following scripture which states:
Prov 23:23
23 <font color="blue">Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.</font color>(KJV)In your best Southern drawl, I fully expected to hear you say,
<font color="purple">Hell's bells, Spying, what in all the world is this business of selling the truth? Ain't that the berries? You go get yourself a forum, you get big headed enough so now you all think that we can go sell the truth contrary to the word of ELOHIM. Not me, Brother!</font color>If you were using the spirit, you would have done that to me, and I would have immediately been put on the defensive through one scripture and very few words. You have very few words, and I like that. So, why not make use of your knowledge of the scriptures?

Did you see Simpleman's post to Stranger. It is a perfect example of what I just related to you. Simpleman used the spirit in making reply, and Stranger was put in a hard place, was he not? Go and do likewise!

Sincerely, Spying

[OldShepherd]

Don,

"<font color=blue>If you are trying to suggest the Qumran Bet in anyway is by posting a link to this book is doing it for $$$$$$$$$$$$,then you both are bold faced liar's.
And jesuit don't thank me for anything!
I don't like you!
And if your going to cry about being kick out of qumran Bet at least tell the truth as to the reasons WHY!</font>"

<DD>I say what I mean and mean what I say. I don't leave it for someone to read between the lines. You evidently do not read nor understand the English language. Here is what I said about money.

<font size=4>In response to an objection elsewhere, re: booksellers and merchant preachers. It is irrelevant.</font> <font size=5><B>Either way the guy who wrote the book makes money.</B></font>

<DD>You got that Don? The guy who wrote the book makes money! If you are still having a problem seeing it, get a magnifying glass.

<DD>Slick, if you think you know anything about me and QB then you post all your proof right here. Everything you think I said or didn't say, post the links right here. And oh BTW make sure you have all the private emails between me and Sis. You don't know half what you <I><B>think</I></B> you do.

<DD>My objection was and is that anal retentive cowards are misquoting my posts here, over at QB by name and any response I make is immediately deleted. So it's acceptable to trash people who are not posting at QB but it is not alright to point out all the lies and dog puke in White's book, <I>Fuzzy Lies</I>.

[don]

SPYING i STAND CORRECTED!

tHANKS!