"Hellen"(greek word) Diasporic Jew or Greek?

[simchat_torah]

Shalom to all,

I've been looking further into the translation of a simple word in the Greek of the NT that makes, dare I say, as big or even BIGGER difference than the translation of nomos!!! The word is "hellen" - typically translated as "gentile" or "Greek". Take a moment to consider the implications of translating this (and related terms) as hellen-JEWS (not the typical hellen-gentiles, as is assumed). If it hasn't hit you yet, let me give you some food for thought:
1) Rather than "Paul, the apostle to the gentiles" we have "Shaul, the one sent to the Hellenized Jews of the dispersion" -- This would be a paradigm-shift that would rock everything!!! And - if this translation is accurate - would demonstrate just how far replacement has been taken!

2) Rather than "gentiles" as the "uncultivated wild olive branch" being "grafted into the culitvated olive branch (for the first time)" we have "Hellenized (dispersed) Yisra'el" being "grafted BACK INTO (regathered/teshuvah/renewed) the olive branch" from which they had become estranged and understandably "wild" in comparison to.

3) Halacha (Oral Torah) was called a "fence" for the Torah by the rabbis. Part of that "fence" meant that faithful Israel needed to stay seperated from "Hellenized Israel" (for example, not eating in their houses like Kepha was condemned for doing by Shaul). When Shaul speaks of the "middle wall of partition" being "broken down" ...are Christians right in saying this refers to the seperation between "Jew" and "gentile"? The Aramaic (from the Peshita) for "middle wall of partition" is the VERY SAME termonology used by the rabbis for - yep, that's right - "fence" (of the Oral Torah!!!). SO... let's put it together. Shaul (submitted to the beit din headed by Ya'chov [James]) was explaining the halachic decision made by the Beit Din HaNetzarim located in Yerushalaim, namely, that Israelites-Tzadikim (righteous Israelites) were NOT to remain seperated from Hellenized-Israelites-Ba'al-Teshuva (Hellenized Israelites who were returning to Torah, but not YET living righteous lives) BECAUSE the previous halachic decision ("fence") had been "abolished in the flesh of Moshiach" BECAUSE Moshiach had come FOR THE VARY REASON of cleansing Yisra'el of her sins and making possible the REGATHERING of the DISPERSED OF ISRAEL. Ahhhhhh... now THAT makes sense in the context.

4) Getting back to Shaul's self-conception... what was it he saw himself as doing? Was he "sent to the gentiles" because the "Jews" had rejected their Messiah? This sets the stage for the obvious conclusion that "gentiles" replaced "Israel after the flesh" because they are the "spiritual Israel" who accepted what the "Jews" forfeited. Here's where a MASSIVE paradigm shifts takes place. "Jews" (in the Gk) is actually "Judeans" (i.e. the Israelites who were NOT in the dispersion, or Judeans who had moved into the dispersion for whatever reason). Let's try out the (correct?) translation and see what happens. Shaul sees the "Judean Israelites" as not (as a whole) accepting their Mashiach. Therefore, Shaul goes to the "Hellenized Jews" in the dispersion, because Yahoshua is the Messiah of ALL Yisra'el (not just the Judeans). After all, the Neviim (prophets) had spoken EXTENSIVELY (nearly all of them!) about the REGATHERING of the dispersed of ISRAEL. The dispersed needed to hear that their redemption had come. Keep in mind that Shaul saw himself as an example of him who's "feet on the mountain brings good news ("gospel")". According to Isaiah (and nearly ALL the other prophets!), who was it that was to receive this "good news"? Was it "gentiles"? Ahhh, NO! It was the dispersed of Yisra'el of course, the "Hellenized Jews". It was good news because Elohim was to regather them and re-establish Yisra'el to make her a "praise in all the earth" and to RENEW the covenant He had made with them. It was good news because Israel - though they had violated the covenant and been scattered to the four corners of the earth - was now to be regathered and re-established. Who was to make this happen? The "son of David" of course - the Messiah. The same one that Shaul was offering. I tried to ask myself the questions that a 1st century faithful Jew would ask. What in the Scriptures would drive Shaul to be so passionate about being "sent to the gentiles"? - I don't see it. On the other hand, what in the Scriptures would drive him to be so passionate about being "sent to the dispersed (Hellenized) of Israel"? - I see nearly ALL of the prophets VERY PASSIONATELY describing this sort of calling!!! I suspect Shaul would be VERY HONORED to call the dispersed of Israel to do teshuvah, but I think he would be VERY CONFUSED if he was asked to go to the "gentiles". Being "sent to the gentiles" makes absolutely no sense according the Scriptures!!! However, being "sent to the dispersed (Hellenized) of Israel" is in fact the ENTIRE THEME of the prophets!!!!!!! And, notice where in fact Shaul goes - the SYNAGOGUES.

5) I could go on, because the possibilities open a NEW PARADIGM for interpretting Shaul, the Netzarim, and the entire foundation of how they saw: themselves, Hellenized Israelites, and gentiles. Just IMMAGINE... Shaul (the one sent to the Hellenized-Jews) writing to SYNAGOGUES in the dispersion, rather than "Paul" (the apostle to the gentiles) writing to "Christian Churches" he "established (from scratch)" throughout the world. Which truly makes sense... I think Shaul was "sent" to the "hellens" alright (the literal Gk), but I think the "hellens" were hellen-JEWS... after all, if we indeed see his letters as written to synagogues (not "churches") then we can see how "Jews" could be the obvious context for which "hellens" he was refering to. There were several "hellens" and some of them were Jews. This is esspecially interesting in Romans 9-11.


Well... write me back and tell me what you think. I admit, the idea is radical, but radical in comparison to what? It's only radical to Christian theology, which is replacement garbage. On the other hand, NOT interpretting it this way is radical to Jewish theology. This interpretation flows perfectly and consistantly, and I am growing in the opinion that it surely must be the right one... not "gentiles" but "Hellenized Jews" of the dispersion.

Shalom,
Japheth

[simchat_torah]

Well, maybe I can spark a conversation with myself, since it seems pretty lonely in here.... he he he....

I looked up "hellen" in my concordance and greek dictionary, and did some cross-checking for its use in the LXX (this comes in very handy ever since I have been enrolled in my greek classes). I found very quickly another term - "ethnos". This term is usually translated "nation" or "people group". It can mean bloodline, but that specific use is usually the word
"phoo-lay" (used for "tribe" in NT, as in the tribes of Israel). In Isa. 49 (you should look this up) for example, ethnos is translated "gentiles" or "nations". HOWEVER, the context seems to GLARINGLY contradict this translation!!! It seems obvious (to my limited understanding anyway) that it is the dispersed of Israel that is being refered to - look elsewhere from chps 40-55 to see what I mean. Isa 49:1-7 is sometimes called the other "servant's song" because it resembles Isa 53. The "literal meaning" (first level of the so called "four-levels of understanding" - PaRDes as explaned at SANJ) of Isa 53 is obvious - "suffering servant = Israel". The other "levels of understanding" are what's used to point to the Messiah.
Here's the thing. By ALL OTHER wording in Isa 40-55 it seems the dispersed of Israel are who receive the "light in the darkness" and wait for the "justice" (mishpatim) to be delivered to them. HOWEVER (and here's where I think the confusion comes in), it is the "servant" (of YHVH) that brings all these things to the "ethnos" (what's translated as "nations" or "gentiles"). Here's the confusion. The translators ask (I know this because I went to the LXX and the Masoretic Hebrew to translate this myself), "How can 'Israel' be the 'servant' and deliver this 'light' to 'Israel' (as in the dispersed of Israel)???????" That's the question I asked myself in trying to understand these cryptic prophecies. I think other translators have asked these same questions, and have consequently solved this apparent paradox by translating "ethnos" as "nations/gentiles".

HOWEVER, THIS FAILS!!! The context seems to refer to these same "ethnos" people as ISRAEL!!! How can this be??? I asked myself this and pondered...

When I was trying to understand Shaul's writings I was baffled why he contrasted "ethnos" with "Israel". I was also baffled why he contrasted "hellen" with "Israel". These are the two main terms that Christians translators use to prove that their "apostle Paul" was "sent to the gentiles". (By the way, the Greek can also be translated as "amoung the ethnos ["nations"]). I thought to myself, "Isa also seems to contrast "ethnos" with "Israel", but Isa seems to mean this in such a way that "ethnos" is actually the DISPERSED OF ISRAEL!!!

EURRRREEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

What if Shaul read to prophet Isaiah... What if Shaul understood the "servant" to be Israel-the-faithful-remant... What Shaul also used PaRDes (deeper levels of understanding beyond the literal) to understand a more hidden meaning of this "servant" to ALSO indicate the Messiah... What if Shaul understood the contrast between "Israel" and "ethnos" to be contrasting "Israel-the-faithful-remnant" with "the dispersed of Israel"... What if Shaul used "ethnos" to describe the dispersed of Israel in his letters SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE that term was already used in the LXX to describe the dispersed of Israel, thus making it obvious WHO he was refering to and making it easy to make the conection between his ministry and Isaiah's prophecies... What if this has been OBVIOUS the whole time but Christian translators have only perpetuated the the false dogma (like they have in everything else) and they can't see past the dogma anyway because 1900 years of "scholarship" has blinded people to any other interpretation... Then again, what if I'm wrong...

These questions kept me up last night with books all over my floor. It would all come together if the LXX translation of Isaiah uses "ethnos" (contrasted with Israel) to mean the "dispersed of Israel". If that is so, then there can be no other interpretation to Shaul's letters, PERIOD - case closed. Shaul proved his message using "Scripture" and the Bereans (most likely Greek-speaking-Jews) confirmed his message in the SCRIPTURES - Tanach. Isaiah is by far quoted the most (second only to Devarim, Dt.), and understanding Isa would reveal how Shaul viewed his mission!!! Other quotes he uses are revealing. In Romans he quotes Hosea (speaking for YHVH) in saying (paraphrased) "Those I called 'not-my-people' I will call 'my-people'". This is UNARGUABLY refering to the dispersed of Israel in the book of Hosea, so why should we think Shaul is speaking of someone else in his letter? Did Shaul not know what Scripture meant??? It could be argued that Shaul was using PaRDeS to apply this to "gentiles", but I don't see why if there is a better answer. What if Shaul - following the exact same wording as he found in Isaiah - contrasted "Israel" with "ethnos" to mean contrasting "Israel-the-remnant" with "Israel-the-dispersed-and-captive-in-darkness"....... This makes sense when trying to interpret the beginning of Romans chp 11.

Equally as important, "Jews" needs to be translated literally "Judeans". Further research also needs to be done in how first century Jews used the terms "ethnos" and "hellen". For example, if one Jew is speaking with another Jew about Jews, would he simply say "hellen" to refer to a hellenized short for short... or would need to specify "hellenized Jew" rather than simply say "hellen". For example, even today, if an Orthodox Jew is speaking to another Orthodox Jew about another (non-religious) Jew, and he simply calls him "hellenized" he has no need of specified that he doesn't mean "gentile" but he means "hellenized-Jew". This should not seem odd...

Well, in hopes of good responses, Shalom...

Japheth

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Greetings simchat_torah
You have presented some interesting posts.

I personally thought it was common knowledge that Hellenist meant Greek speaking Jews in the Greek Scriptures (New Testament). But I realize now that it is translated Grecian (#1675) in the KJV and not Hellenist. The KJV has done much in the way of causing division, discord and a lack of understanding due to the way it was translated.

But as far as I know the word Hellenist (1675) is only used in Acts 6:1, 9:29 and 11:20.

The Hebrew Scriptures tell us that the Greeks are descended from Noah's son Japheth, Yavan, and although it doesn't say a lot about them it does tell us that there will be conflict between them and the children of Israel, who come from the line of Shem.

Daniel 8:21
And the shaggy goat is the king of Yavan (Greece, KJV) and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Daniel 10:20
And he said, Do you know why I have come to you? And now I will return to fight with the ruler of Parac (Persia, KJV). And when I have gone out, then the ruler of Yavan shall come.

Daniel 11:2
And now I will declare to you the truth. Behold, three kings will yet stand up in Parac, and the fourth shall be rich in all greater riches. And when he is strong by his rulers he will stir up all the kingdom of Yavan.

Joel 3:6-8 (4:6-8)
6) And the children of Yahudah and the children of Yerusalem you have sold to the children of the Yavanim (Greeks, KJV), that you might remove them from their border.
7) Behold, I am arousing them from the place where you have sold them, and will return your reward on your own head.
8) And I well sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Yahudah...

Zechariah 9:13
For I have bent Yahudah as my bow; I filled it with Ephraim and I will stir up your children, Tsion and make you as the sword of a mighty man, against your children, Yavan.

Now the KJV translated Yavan as Greece, but that is not entirely accurate because Yavan predates Greece. Greece is one of those descended from Yavan.

According to Strong's Concordance:

Hellas #1671; Greece or country of Europe.
Hellen #1672; a Grecian or inhab. of Hellas; by extens. a Greek-speaking person, espec. a non-Jew.
Hellenikos #1673; Hellenic, i.e. Grecian in language.
Hellenis #1674; fem. of 1672; a Grecian (i.e. non-Jewish) woman.
<font color=maroon>Hellenenistes # 1675; a Hellenist or Greek-speaking-Jew.</font>
Hellenisti; from the same as 1675; Hellenistically, i.e. in the Grecian language.

<font color=navy>Yavan H#3120
the name of a son of Japheth, and of the race (Ionians, i.e. Greeks) descended from him, with their territory.</font>

According to my dictionary:
Hellene [Greek proper name]
1. Greek Myth., a member of a Thessalian tribe led by Hellen, legendary ancestor of the true Greeks;
2. later, a person of the pure Greek race of the classical period;
3. a modern Greek

Hellenic
1. strictly, pertaining to, or characteristic of, classic Greece; especially, pertaining to the social and cultural aspects of classical Greek civilization, or to classic Greek art and literature;
2. pertaining to the Greeks in general;
3. pertaining to the literary Greek language as distinguished from Romaic, the modern vernacular.

Hellenism
1. a Greek manner of speech;
2. admiration or imitation of the Greeks;
3. the Greek national spirit;
4. the spirit characteristic of the classic Greek period.

<font color=maroon>Hellenist
1. a Jew who spoke Greek in preference to Hebrew;</font>
2. one learned in Greek;
3. a scholar who spread Greek culture during the Renaissance;
4. one who believes that the primary basis for personal culture is to be found in the spirit of the ancient Greeks.

Hellenistic
1. aimin at, or tending toward, the Greek spirit;
2. possessing, or partaking of, Hellenic characteristics with foreign or decadent admixture: used especially of Greek art, literture, and culture after the time of Alexander the Great.

Hellenize
to cause to conform to Greek standards or usages; to imitate the Greeks in language and custom.

<font color=navy>Ionian [Greek Ionios]
1. pertaining to Ionia, the western coast of Asia Minor and the neighboring islands, or to its inhabitants:
2. a member of the main divisions of the ancient Greek race which settled first in Attica, Euboea and Achaia, and later spread to the western coast of Asia Minor and the adjacent islands.</font>

Ionic [Greek Ionikos]
1. of or pertaining to Ionia, the western coast of Asia Minor and the neighboring islands, or to its inhabitants;
2. pertaining to the main divisions of the ancient Greeks which settled originally in Attica, Euboea, and Achaia, and later in Ionia;
3. pertaining to the language spoken by them.</font>

[Sandy]

<font color=green> As regards to ethnos (#1484) in the Greek Scriptures meaning Hellenized Jews, I am not sure. I can see where it may fit in some cases, but as a whole I don't see it.

However there is no "ethnos" in the Hebrew Scriptures, it is "goy/goyim" which does mean "nation/nations".</font>

[Moses]

Hi Japhet, Great to see you here. I love what you have written.
According to my Hebrew dictionary, "A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language"
"GOY"= AN IRRELIGIOUS JEW
The Jews will 'spit' and say 'goy or plurel goym', this they do concerning their own who have left their belief.
How would you spell 'hellen' in greek? I may be mistaken but I don't think there is an "H" in the Greek.

Marietta

[Moses]

Japheth, I was just discussing this very topic with friends before coming online.
I believe that Jesus was sent to and for the lost house of Israel only.

Matthew 15:22-28 Behold, a Canaanite woman came out from that region, and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Messiah, Son of David: my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came to him and kept asking him, saying, “Send her away, for she is shouting out after us.“ He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Luke 19:9-10 And Yahushua said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.” For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Yahushua sent out after instructing them, saying, “Do not go in the way of the gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Luke 19:10 “For the son of man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

John 17:8-9 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Hebrews 2:10 It was fitting that Yahweh, for whom and through whom everything exists, would in bringing many sons to glory, make perfect through suffering the leader of their salvation. For consecrator and consecrated are all of the same stock; that is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers.

The Jews were given the laws of the universe in the very beginning and were to teach mankind as they were ready to receive. However some of the Jews strayed off with the nations and became lost within them. The lost Jews need to be brought back into right standing before the Jews can teach anyone else. We must always remember to clean up our own house before trying to clean out someone else's.
When Jesus and Paul sent their apostles out they were to go into all the world making apostles out of the Jews that were dispersed in all of the world.

Marietta

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello Marietta and Japheth
In the Hebrew Scriptures the words goy/goyim are used not only for any and all nation/nations but also in reference to Israel as a nation.


Genesis 10:5
The coasts of the nations (goyim) were divided by these in their lands, each by his tongue, by their families, in their nations (goyim), the sons of Japheth

Genesis 10:20
These were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands in their nations (goyim)

Genesis 10:31-32
31) These were the sons of Shem, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, according to their nations (goyim)
32) These were the sons of Noah, by their generations, in their nations (goyim). And from these the nations (goyim) were divided in the earth after the flood

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of you (Abram) a great nation (goy)

Genesis 17:4-5
4) I behold My Covenant with you (Abram), and you will be a father of many nations (goyim)
5) And your name will be Abraham; because I have made you a father of many nations (goyim)

Genesis 17:16
I have blessed her (Sarah) and she will become nations (goyim)

Genesis 17:20
and I will make Ishmael a great nation (goy)

Genesis 18:18
and Abraham surely will become a great and powerful nation (goy), and all the nations (goyim) of the earth will be blessed in him.

Genesis 21:13
and also I will make a nation (goy) of the son (Ishmael) of the servant-girl, because he is your (Abrahams) seed.

Genesis 25:32
and <font color=purple>YHUH</font> said to Rebekah, Two nations (goyim) are in your womb; yes, two people will come forth from your body.

Genesis 35:11
and Elohim said to Jacob, I am El Shaddai...
A nation (goy) and a company of nations (goyim) will be from you

Exodus 9:24
...since Egypt became a nation (goy)

Exodus 19:6
and you will become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy nation (goy)

[Moses]

Hi Sandy, Again these are gross mistranslations. I don't have time right now to go through all of the verses but I will go through the first.

Genesis 10:5.
FIRST WORD:mem ahleph lahmed he:
mem=from, of: ahleph
lahmed he:=goddess, curse, to worship as deity

SECOND WORD: nun pe rehsh daleth waw:
nun pe rehsh daleth:=separate, different, odd: waw=the conjunction; and, therefore

THIRD WORD: ahleth yod yod: proper noun; Aii

FORTH WORD: he gamel waw yod mem:
he:=the definate article; the
gamel waw yod mem:=goym, irreligious Jews, nations
OR
gamel waw yod:=body, gentile, irreligious Jew
mem: of, from:

FIFTH WORD: beth ahleph rehsh tsadee taw mem:
beth:=within, in
ahleph rehsh tsadee:=Artz, earth
taw mem:=without blemith, was ended, was complete,
perfect, innocent
in earth's perfction

SIXTH WORD: ahleph yod shin:= man, to man
OR
ahleph:=on, upon
yod shin:=possession, property, existence, substance,
reality

SEVENTH WORD: lahmed lahmed shin nun waw:
lahmed:=unto, towards
lahmed shin nun: to slander
waw: and, therefore

EIGHTH WORD: lahmed mem shin pe cheth taw mem:
lahmed:=unto, towards
mem shin pe cheth:= scab
taw mem:= was ended, complete, innocent, perfection

NINTH WORD: beth gamel waw yod he mem:
beth:=within, in
gamel waw yod: body, goy, irreligious Jew
he mem:=they
he:=the
mem:=from, of


5. from goddess separate therefore Aii the body from within Artz innocent upon existence unto slandering therefore unto scab without blemish within body them


Marietta

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Sandy and Marietta:

Marietta, thank you for the warm welcome.

One thing I have pondered much lately is the use of "commonwealth of Yisra'el". According to Oral Torah, the outcast (or more explicitly the dispersed Isreallite) was not a part of the "commonwealth of Yisra'el". Those verses seem to pertain to the dispersion, as Ephsians is addressed as such. Then the phrase can be more readily understood in this new light.

One thing I do worry about, Marietta, is replacement theology springing from the idea of the Jews as a whole rejecting Y'shua. Of course, it was prophesied by Shaul that this would happen for a time, yet this is what drove Shaul to go to the dispersion. It does not lead to a logical jump of replacement by gentiles. I know you weren't necessarily going there, but I just wanted to have that stated.

Shalom and blessings to all,
Japheth.

[Spying]

Hi Simchat_Torah,

Welcome to the Lo Ammi Forum! Thank you for your posts. You are enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is infectious as well as joy. Children are charmed by it. Enthusiasm overcomes shyness. In the days to come, if you continue to let it flow, you will not be lonely here.

Forgive me if I have been restrained and remiss in my greeting of you. By nature, I am a loner, and I am shy, but I do enjoy playing with other kids as I am caught up in the play.

I view myself as a descendant of Joseph. Whether of Ephraim or Manasseh, I do not know. I have no family history to warrant such a conclusion. I am a gentile, and I am definitely a replacement in a number of areas. Messiah said:
Matt 21:43
43 <font color="red">Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of ELOHIM shall be taken from you, and given to a nation </font color>(ethnos) <font color="red">bringing forth the <B>fruits</b> thereof.</font color> (KJV)Perhaps, you are here to help us show forth those fruits. Again, welcome to Lo Ammi.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying wrote:
<font color=black>Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of ELOHIM shall be taken from you, and given to a nation (ethnos) bringing forth the fruits thereof. (KJV)</font>
Can you back that up with something from the Hebrew Scriptures?</font>

[Thummim]

Spying, just what are the fruits of christianity? The history of christianity seems obscene to me. The things I associate with christianity are pograms, the inquision, the expulsion of JEWs from their homelands, the crusades, the holocaust, etc. How do such fruits make christianity a substitute for the people who bear their Eloheem's name? Don't you realize how antisemitic this verse is? How does christianity warrant being a replacement for the JEWish people in any sense? This verse reminds me of Est.3:13, where the edict is given to distroy all JEWs. Saying such a thing to a JEW, is worse than spitting on them. I'm sure that the author of this verse, knew this, before he wrote it. ....Michael

[simchat_torah]

What is Replacement theology in the eyes of a Jewish Believer? I have posted, in the past, my ideas (and traditional “Jewish Believer’s” take) on various aspects of replacement theology. But now I sit down to actually sum all of it’s teachings up in a nice neat package. (*** How strange it seems to me that Christians were not claiming to be Jews during the Holocaust…. Just a thought)


; )

Has G-d forsaken His people? This would be the first logical step in determining if a new people have now replaced Yisra’el. First let us look at Heb. 6:13 & 17.

“6:13 For when Elohim made a promise to Avraham, since he could swear by none greater, he swore by himself . 6:17 Wherein Elohim, being determined to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath”

Here we can see that His promise was eternal. He could find no greater way to seal His covenant, thus He swore by Himself. To break this….. well, you can imagine the theological magnitude of this….

But what if Yisra’el borke the covenant?

Jeremiah. 46:28 Don't be afraid you, O Ya`akov my servant, says YHWH; for I am with you: for I will make a full end of all the nations where I have driven you; but I will not make a full end of you, but I will correct you in measure, and will in no way leave you unpunished.

G-d will never make an end to Yisra’el. He may punish them, but never fully destroy Yisra’el.

Jeremiah . 31:35 Thus says YHWH, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar; YHWH of hosts is his name: 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before me, says YHWH, then the seed of Yisra'el also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. 31:37 Thus says YHWH: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the eretz searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Yisra'el for all that they have done, says YHWH.

Here we can see that as long as there is a sun, moon, stars, Earth, and sea there will be a distinct people Yisra’el- no matter what they do.

In ancient days, covenants were made in a special way. Sacrificial animals were cut in two and their severed bodies placed in two lines. Both parties entered into the covenant would then walk between the carcasses. By doing so they were symbolically saying, “If I break this binding agreement, if I fail to uphold my side of the pact, then let me suffer the same fate that these animals have suffered.” But something was different in Genesis 15. Only G-d passed through the pieces! This was a one-way deal.

Gen. 15:17 It came to pass that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold, a smoking furnace, and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 15:18 In that day YHWH made a covenant with Avram, saying, "To your seed have I given this land, from the river of Mitzrayim to the great river, the river Perat: 15:19 the Kinim, the Kenizzi, the Kadmoni, 15:20 the Hitti, the Perizzi, the Refa'im, 15:21 the Amori, the Kana`anim, the Girgashi, and the Yevusi."

And
Romans . 11:28 As concerning the good message, some are enemies because of you: but as concerning the chosen people, they are beloved for the fathers ' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of Elohim are irrevocable.

[simchat_torah]

Then some ask, “Why are the Jews living outside the ‘new’ covenant if they are the covenant people?” Shaul had a simple answer to this:

Rom. 9:6-8
“Is it not as though G-d’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Yisra’el are Yisra’el. Nor because hey are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children…. In other words, it is not the natural children who are G-d’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Natural children refers to Yisra’el as a whole. G-d’s children refers to the believing remnant within natural Yisra’el.

We can see a similar parallel within Christianity. There are those who have been born into the ch-rch, and then there are those who are spiritually the ch-rch. These are those who have faith outside of simply being a part of Christianity only because that is what they were raised in. (this is only an example to show Christians what I mean)

On no definite occasion does the Brit Chadasha ever call the ch-rch Yisra’el. In fact, out of the 77 times the words “Yisra’el” and “Israellite” occur in the Brit Chadasha, there are only two verses in which Yisra’el couild possibly refer to the ch-rch as a whole: Gal. 6:16, where Shaul speaks of the “Yisra’el of G-d” and Rev. 7:4, where Yochanan speaks of the 144,000 seald from the twelve tribes of Yisra’el. This is saying something! Seventy-five “definites” and only two “maybes”. I wouldn’t want to side with the “maybes”!

Actually the terms “true Yisra’el” or “spiritual Yisra’el” never occur in the Bible, and it might be helpful to completely avoid using them.

As for the verses open to dispute, in Galations 6:16 the KJV, the NKJV, and the NASB all imply the same thing: “The Yisra’el of G-d” does not refer to the whole ch-rch. It refers to believing Jews. The same can be said for the description of the 144,000 sealed in Rev. 7:4. It most likely describes the harvest of the Jews worldwide. Elsewhere in the Book of Rev. “Yisra’el” means “Yisra’el” (Rev. 2:14) and “the twelve tribes” mean the “twelve tribes of Yisra’el”, as distinguished from the “twelve apostles” (Rev. 21:12-14).

[simchat_torah]

Now let’s examine Rom. 2:28-29
“A man is not a Jew if he is ONLY one outwardly, nor is circumcison MERELY outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such is a man’s praise not from men, but from G-d.

Here he is directing his argument to Jews, as we can see from the context provided in Rom. 2:17-29. Within that context he is defining who the “real” Jew is- spiritually speaking.

In the greek Brit Chadasha, the word Jew occurs over 190 times. More than 190 times it definitely means a Jew nationally and ethnically. Only 2 times could it possibly mean something else. Those two times are: Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 where the reference is mae to “those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of HaSatan.”

I’m afraid my interpretation of the above verses will offend many, so I will leave it up to your interpretation.

But if someone understood Romans 2:2-20 to say that believing Gentiles were spiritual Jews (it is easy from the text to see ‘why’ many Christians believe this about themselves.) that would not change this important fact: Shaul never said that natural Jews were no longer Jews. He only said that the natural Jews were not Jews in this Special, Fuller sense. Just keep reading his letter! After making his point in Rom. 2:28-29 (remember, it is one of the few times in the entire Brit Chadasha that the word Jew is used like this), he goes back to referring to ALL Jews in the normal sense.

If you have any doubt read the next verse!

“What advantage is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? MUCH in EVERY WAY!….” (Rom. 3:1-2)

In other words, since being a Jew outwardly and physically doesn’t guarantee a right relationship with G-d, what’s the advantage in being a Jew, a physically, circumcised, ethnic Jew? Much, in every way, because G-d entrusted His Word to His physical, natural people-the Jews! It really is quite simple. If Shaul was teaching that natural Jews were no longer Jews and that believing Gentiles are not the real Jews, what in the world did he mean in Romans 3:9?

“We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.”

If Jews are not Jews and Gentiles are not Gentiles, what was Shaul trying to to say in Romans 3:29?

“Is G-d the G-d of the Jews only? Is He not the G-d of the Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too.”

And what then would be the meaning of Rom. 15:27 if believing gentiles are now Jews?

“… For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.”

Clearly gentile means gentile and Jew means Jew.
It is one thing to argue that once or twice Shaul used the words “Yisra’el” and “Jew” in a special sense, referring to the whle sh-rch as the “Yisra’el of G-d”, and all believers as “Jews”. (I personally disagree with this, but I certainly wouldn’t call this position dangerous) But it is another thing entirely to turn around and ignore the remaining 268 Brit Chadasha references to “yisra’el” and “jew” and claim that Yisra’el is no longer Yisra’el and Jews are no longer Jews! That most certainly is dangerous.

It is one thing to say, “Shaul used the word ‘circumcision’ in a special sense (Phil. 3:3) to refer to all believers.” It is quite another thing to say, “Those who are physically circumcised on the eigth day are no longer counted as Jews”! Even the book of Dueteronomy recognized two circumcisions; the circumcision of the heart and the physical body.

As basic as this is, later ch-rch interpreters went way beyond the meaning of the Word. First they say, “You see, it is not all who are descended from Yisra’el who are Yisra’el. It is the true believers who are Yisra’el, and we are the true believers. We are Yisra’el! It’s not just believing Jews who are Yisra’el. Everyone who simply believes is Yisra’el too!”

What is so terrible about saying this? Maybe noting so far, but the next step was simply disastrous: “If the ch-rch is spiritual Yisra’el, the new Yisra’el, then there is no need for NATURAL Yisra’el, the OLD Yisra’el anymore. They are no longer the covenant people, we are.”

Allow me to quote just one of THOUSANDS throughout history who have exemplified this attitude:

“All the blessings given to Yisra’el are now ours… forever. As for you Jews, to hell with our cursed race!” (A papal ambassador to Poland during the Holocaust)

But the ch-rch has not cursed Yisra’el. The ch-rch has cursed herself! Shaul’s exhortation must be heard again:

“Do not be arrogant, but be afraid…. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, borthers, so that you may not be conceited.” Rom. 11:20, 25

Look at the strong words Shaul uses: arrogant, ignorant, conceited. What a critically important subject for the ch-rch to understand! Ignorance of G-d’s purposes for Yisra’el breeds conceit. And a conceited ch-rch is a ch-rch resisted by the L-rd, for “G-d opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6

Unfortunately, many in the body today still claim that it is the ch-rch alon who is the true Yisra’el. One well known author has written at length and with great passion saying, “Wake up Ch-rch! You alone are Yisra’el!”

Why don’t we just accept the obvious meaning of the text? Why don’t we just give up all our interpretive gymnastics?

G-d is looking for believers, not acrobats.

Shalom,

Japheth

P.S. Much of the above is borrowed from Michael Brown’s book “Our Hands Are Stained With Blood” chapter 13. I highly recommend this book, but beware, tears will flow as you read the first few chapters. Blessings to all….

[Thummim]

Baruch hashem simchat_torah. Fortunately, I don't think that their are many here that put their faith into something as offensive as replacement theology. I doubt that even Spying can except such dogma. I do not want to imply that he does. Replacement theology is virulent antisemitsm to me. Christianity definately hasn't been a blessing to the JEWish people. I think that the other faiths along with their gods, even if combined in their oppression of JEWs, haven't harmed JEWs half as much as the faith of christianity. Christianity, by defining JEWs as "unsaved killers of (jesus), have made their faith like a fatal virus to this people of YHWH. There's a reason that christianity has been so caustic to JEWs. The Yahudeem have had about as much to do with the death of (jesus) as Americans have had to do with the death of Abraham Lincoln. Through most of the oppression that JEWs have known, they have been surrounded by christians. Now christians are starting to think of themselves as fellow JEWs in (jesus). As you have noted, there were very few of these [brethren] during the holocaust. Why are JEWs usually surrounded by christians while their oppression rages on? Doesn't this show that christianity has not earned a place in the name of YHWH? I'm forced to mention that there were some christians who stood by the JEWs and defended them during the holocaust. The Yahudeem save the names of these people and guard them jealously. If there is really such a thing as saints, these few must be deserving of the title. I've enjoyed reading your various posts. Keep it up. ....Michael

[simchat_torah]

Michael, thank you very much. Shalom to you this day.

P.S. How exactly would you define your beliefs?

[simchat_torah]

This is only for those who are interested in persecutionof the Jews by the ch-rch. Read on only if
you have a strong stomach.

I have only highlighted a FEW of the things that have happened through history.
Beware, if you read beyond this point you may be disgusted.....]


325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter
from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond
measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of
the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious
people..."


367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people
who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.


380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue;
he referred to it as
"an act pleasing to God.


415: St.Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot,
who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures
and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."


418: St.Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of
a synagogue:

"If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's
fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable
disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it
deserves."


694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of
the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen,
Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual
slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of
Jesus.


1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes


1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal
of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a
second target.
As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large
numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or
die!"
12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade.
This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.


1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central
synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back
into the burning building.


1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that
"the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude
because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose
death they wickedly conspire,
they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the
slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..." thus began the slavery of
Jewish people to Catholics in the 13th century.


1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews
and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in
the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished
from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries
(hmmm.... sounds familiar, eh nazis?)


1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This
requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the
oval badge to a Star of David.


1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The
rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the
rats to humans.
As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five
years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for
its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for
someone to blame.
They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the
disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws,
which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that
Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by
poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder
and burn the Jews.

In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000;

Rue Brule...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with
blazing
wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews
were burned.
In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
(the list goes on and on and on... sad isn't it)


This is the last one....

1543: Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to
Christianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
"What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed...
They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in
which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach
any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden
to the Jews...

Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables
of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe
keeping...

===================================
May tears flow for the atrocities of the ch-rch. May healing come to those who have been hurt. May not the witness of the Moshiach be faded by the actions done it his name.

Shalom and good night,
Japheth

[Moses]

Japheth,
You wrote:
>>One thing I do worry about, Marietta, is replacement theology springing from the idea of the Jews as a whole rejecting Y'shua.<<

My reply:
The way I see it, is that Y'shua taught only the Jews and it was the Jews who were his desciples, it was the Jews that welcomed him and spread his words and it was the Jews that spared their own lives for him.
I think one of the greatest misunderstandings comes from the different thinking held as to what a Messiah is, was, or is to be. I think that maybe when this new religion (Christianity) was started they had a completely different view as to what the roll of the Messiah was to be, than the Jews held. Therefore they both believed but with different expectations.
Just some things I have pondered and continue to ponder.

Marietta

[simchat_torah]

Shalom sister.

"maybe when this new religion (Christianity) "

lol lol LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

I usually think such things but rarely say them in public.

Much love,
Japheth

[Thummim]

Shalom simchat_torah. I believe that Yahudah is the parent name of YHWH. With that, I believe that those who persecute the name of Yahudah have no place in the name of YHWH. If you take the image of Eloheem and feed it the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, (this comes from he who decides what is good and evil [YHWH defines such things] ), than these become like YHWH. It's the name of YHWH that will not touch death. This name is the fruit from the tree of life, also. How is the name of YHWH like the name of Yahudah? Well, four of the five letters match. Odds, 22x22x22x22= 234,258 to one. The fourth letter of the hebrew aleph-bet is removed from the fourth position of the name of the fourth son of Leah and Jacob, fourth generation from Abraham. The heavens are made to testify of this through the coruption of the fourth day. Note that you cannot plant the earth before you create the sun, moon and stars. I believe that the letter withheld from the name of YHWH is the daleth from the name of Yahudah. Because this name belongs to David, it makes David a lot like GD (1ki.11:36). This is the true meaning of Isa.9:6 to me. The throne of David bears the name of GD. Thummim completes the name and allows the invoking of YHWH. Thummim means, to complete, Strongs 8550 (in the sense of perfecting knowledge). To put it more plainly, I believe that the tribe of David (Judah), bears the name of YHWH as goes with Deut.12:5. This name is the root of Jesse to me. I believe that you redeem all JEWs by linking their name to the name of their Eloheem. As your name goes, so goes your fate. The name of Yahudah will cease being a byword when all people come to realize that it is the name of GD. When this happens, the glory of YHWH will rise upon his people. I call the name of YHWH a circumcised version of the name of Yahudah. I've written other things concerning my faith, elsewhere in the forum. Basically I'm a JEW in faith. I observe the sabboth, eat kosher and try to keep mitzvah as do other JEWs. My faith binds me to the JEWish people and my faith is JEWish. The chief difference in my faith comes in my belief that there is a connection between the name of YHWH and the people of Israel. Thus they shall link my name with the people of Israel (literally the sons of Israel -bani-), and I will bless them. Nu.6:27 When JEWs were made guilty for being JEWs, they were made guilty for the name of their Eloheem. The name of YHWH is the name of salvation. It cannot become unrighteous. This is how the seed of Israel can become -all righteous. Their righteousness is of me says YHWH. Isa.54:17 ....Michael

[Sandy]

<font color=green>If Iesous/Jesus/Yeshua is the messiah and the New Testament is the New Covenant:
Why is there no sign of the New/Renewed Covenant? Why is the Anointed One of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> not ruling and reigning in Jerusalem? Why is the Talmud and Mishna etc. needed if the Torah is written on their heart? Why are there so many Jewish sects? Why are not Israel and Yahudah one nation dwelling on the land as promised, stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates? Why is everyone still running to and fro teaching his neighbor and his brother about <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and even arguing about his name? Why isn't <font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> dwelling place and sanctuary in their midst? Why are they not secure on their land? Why isn't Israel and Yahudah one nation and one kingdom? Why are the sins of Israel still remembered? Why haven't the Jewish people removed all the hateful things and all the abominations from the land of Israel? etc., etc., etc.
Jeremiah 31:33
BUT THIS WILL BE <font color=red>the Covenant</font> that I will cut with the House of Israel after those days, declares <font color=purple>YHUH</font>:
I will put My Torah in their inward parts and I will write it on their hearts. I will be their Elohim and they will be My people. They will no longer teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, because they will all know Me. From the least of them to the greatest of them... I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sins no more.Jeremiah 32
37) Behold, <font color=blue>I will gather them</font> out of all the lands where I have driven them in my anger and in my fury, in great indignation. And <font color=blue>I will again bring them</font> to this place, and I will make them live in safety.
38) And they will be my people and I will be their Elohim.
39) And I will give them one heart and one pathway, that they may fear me all the days, for good to them and to their sons after them.
40) I will cut an <font color=red>everlasting covenant</font> with them. I will not turn away from them, to do good them. I will put my fear in their heart that they will not depart from me.
41) I will rejoice over them, to do good to them. <font color=blue>I will truly plant them</font> in this land with all my heart and with all my soul.
42) For <font color=purple>YHUH</font> says, As I have brought all that great evil on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I spoke to them.

Ezekiel 11
16)...Though I have sent them far off among the nations and scattered them among the lands, yet I was to them as a little sanctuary in the lands where they had gone.
17) Therefore say, So says <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, <font color=blue>I will gather you</font> from the people and assemble you from out of the lands, in those where you were scattered; and I will give to you the land of Israel.
18) And they will remove all its hateful things and all its abominations from it.
19) I will give to them one heart and I will put a new spirit within them, and I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh and I will give thema heart of flesh.
20) So that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them. And they will be my people and I will be their Elohim.
</font>

[simchat_torah]

Hello Sandy and Thummim.

Sandy, I don't know if I will get to your post tonight, for I am dog tired, but we will see. But definately tommorow afternoon if not tonight. I do have some thoughts and ideas for you to ponder in light of what you just posted.

First I would like to ask Thummim a few questions, and make a few comments.

questions first:
1. How do you derive the name "Yahudah"?

2. The version of Is. 9:6 you are referring to.... Is it the Masoratic or Septuigant? It makes a HUGE difference. First, I am not sure what you are implying upon the text (it simply wasn't stated clearly or I am dumb as a brick and didn't see it). If you could make that clear for this brick-head, that would help. Second, which text are you implying the conditions upon?

3. How is "Yahudah" a byword?

4. I am preposterously confused by this next statement:
"When JEWs were made guilty for being JEWs, they were made guilty for the name of their Eloheem."
What do you mean the Jews were made guilty, for being who they were. I am not sure what you mean by this.

Now comments:

1. The YHWH you refer to is commonly "mis" used. I'm not harking on you, it is just that I've seen this a lot lately. The letters in Hebrew are "Y-d H-y V-v H-y" creating Y-H-V-H. The 'W' comes from the mistransliteration into English. The english texts most commonly use Yahweh, a mispronounciation. Yahveh is the correct pronounciation. Just giving clarification here. Don't take it personally, YHWH is used A LOT, but is simply wrong. If you are going to use the tetragramtron, then why use the W? It just doesn't make logical sense.

2. What historical proof texts do you use to claim:
"that Yahudah is the parent name of YHWH"? The oldest text we have is a silver scroll of a partial text of a Psalm. This silver scroll is held in a museum on Princeton's campus. It has Y-H-V-H on this scroll. The next oldest text is a triagular stone near the Babylonian region, and it too uses Y-H-V-H. Then we also have the Dead Sea Scrolls, all of which use Y-H-V-H. I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that Yehudah is the parent name. Please do not think I am mocking, just curious. It is just quite a statement to say:
"I call the name of YHWH a circumcised version of the name of Yahudah. "

3. Simply because there are similarities between Yehudah and Y-H-V-H how do you know that Yehudah is the true name?

4. How is David made "a lot like G-d"? I am confused again at this statement. You used I Kings 11:36 as a proof text, it says:
" To his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a lamp always before me in Yerushalayim, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there."
How is David made like G-d?
I believe that the Tanach shows that David sits upon the throne of G-d, and is His annointed, but how is he made like G-d?

5. Duet. 12:5 "But to the place which Y-H-V-H your Elohim shall choose out of all your tribes, to put his name there, even to his habitation shall you seek, and there you shall come"
How does this show that the name Y-H-V-H makes His abode with Judah?

6. A Jew is not one who simply has faith that he is one. Many Jews will be quite offended at that. It is a covenant that is brought upon oneself, whether born Jewish or a Proselyte.

Finally, You said that the destiny of a Jew lies in their name. Well, my name, Japheth, means "Expressive Light" in Hebrew.

Shalom Thummim,

J.

[simchat_torah]

Sandy,

I was right, I am now to tired to post an entire message. But just one comment/question should suffice my appetite. In light of my above post, why do you use "U" as compared to a "V"? Why YHUH instead of YHVH?

curious,
Japheth

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Good morning Japheth
I hope you are well rested and refreshed.
I appreciate your responses and find them interesting.

You asked:
<font color=black>why do you use "U" as compared to a "V"? Why YHUH instead of YHVH?</font>
This to me is a very good example proving that the Covenant has not been renewed. We are still arguing over how to pronounce the Name.

Like Thummim, I do not feel that it is just coincidence that YHUH and YHUDH are so uniqely similar.

Do you use a "V" in the short form YHU?
How do you pronounce YHVH?

I personally see the letters YHUH like this:

Y= EE H= AH U= OO H= AH, which translates to YAH-OO-AH and YHUDH as YAH-OO-DAH.</font>

[Thummim]

Yahudah, äãåäé YHVDH
The name of GD, äåäé YHV H
I use the hebrew text, and use a "W" to capture the "U sound" in the name of Yahudah.The hebrew text that I use is the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia commonly known as the Stuttgart bible. Isa.9:6 in the KJV is Isa.9:5 in my hebrew text.In hebrew, it reads; : íåìù -øù ãò -éëà øåëâ ìà õàåé àìô åîù àøëéå åîëù -ìò äøùîä éäúå åðì -ïúð ïá åðé -ãìé ãìé -éë
In a paraphrazed translation, it reads, "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will-be the-government on shoulder-of-him and-he-will-call name-of-him Wonder-of One-counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting Prince-of Peace
I get the name of the one setting on the throne of David as being called GD and father out of these verses. Now David sets down on his throne in the house of Judah (Yahudah).This is the tribe in which YHWH puts his name (Deut.12:5). It is in the tribe of Yahudah that a temple is built to tend "the name". It is the name "JEW" that has become a byword. The germans say "das juden". This is the reason that JEWs were gathered and slaughtered. Not because they are charged with any crime, Not because it was easy to recognise who is JEWish, but because they are JEWs. By byword, I mean a name without honor, simular to a racial slur. I believe that the name of YHWH is derived from the name of Yahudah, Four of the letters match, and in the same order. As I've stated, I see the odds of this simularity being 22 x 22 x 22 x 22= 234,258 to one.It is actually a little longer because of the letters ending up in the same order. Again, I use a "W" in my use of the letters
ä-å-ä-é (YHVH) to denote the sound of a "U". It's just a matter of personal choice.If you remove the fourth letter from the name of Yahudah, you end up with the letters, ä åäé (YHVH)
The space that is left blank doesn't exist in the original hebrew. So if you write in the name of Yahudah, leaving out the
ã, (D) in the same place that is occupied by the name of äåäé, (YHVH) nothing changes. David is like GD in that he lives forever if he can rise up to occupy his throne for ever. This is testified to in Jer.30:9, and also in Eze.34:23. Zechariah makes an interesting statement in Zech.12:8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as GD, as the angel of the LORD before them. David himself chooses the site to build a house for the name of YHWH. Ps. 78:67,68 addresses this. Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: But he chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. and built his sanctuary - etc. Finally, if you allow your name to become defiled, you will pay a price for it. A good name is something to be treasured. ....Michael , the hebrew fonts that I used didn't come out right. They should read right to left. I've made a few changes for the sake of understanding.

[Moses]

Thummim, What you have written is very interestin and thought provoking to say the least.
The word Yahudah yod he vav daleth he: literally means: woe Veda ---OR--- converting to Judaism the.
I find it very interesting that if you combine the meanings they mean: Woe Veda converting to Judaism the blablabla whatever. So does the Veda hold the truth of real Judaism?
According to Kaballah God's name is made up of 72 letters, and then there is a shortened form of 32 and then the shortened form of 4. Also 'Once the name of God is pronounced by mankind, the world will end.'
God's true name is a string of vibration which has the power to transform anything. Thus, "in the 'name' you can say to this mountain to move over there and it will happen."
All the universe is made up of vibrations and the true name of God is a vibrational string that can distroy as well as make whole, but in the hands of the untrained it is pure distruction. Hence, YHWH, which means: 'hand of distruction', or-- 'woe! oh!'----
THE LITERAL MEANING OF YHWH:
-----hand opening secured doorway----
THE LITTERAL MEANING OF YHWDH
---hand opening secured pouring down doorway---
The doorway between universes. "or" Is it the doorway of the Gods in the underworld? Where Satan is bound?

Marietta

[Thummim]

Baruch hashem Marietta. I'm always interested in hearing what anybody has to say concerning the name of YHWH. I look to see salvation come from the name of YHWH to all JEWs. The name of YHWH is the key to the strenth of GD as you seem to apply. I believe that this name is the right arm of YHWH. Without it, YHWH ceases to be the deliverer of his people. The tirshatha knew that the loss of this knowledge separated his people from the ability to make a righteous offering to YHWH. (Neh.7:65) Without the knowledge of Urim and Thummim, you cannot properly serve the name of YHWH. Why build a temple for the name of YHWH, if you've lost the knowledge that goes with this name? Yet with learning the name, you gain YHWH's presence. (Isa.52:6) YHWH cannot change his name without giving up his relationship to his people. His name is the same forever. By name, he is both father and husband to his people. The holocaust could not happen while YHWH stands guard over his people in the strenth of his right arm. I reason the knowledge of the sacred name to go with the secrets of Urim and Thummim. When one comes who understands these these things, Then that messenger of the covenant will purify the sons of Levi. .....Michael

[simchat_torah]

Michael,

Shalom to you this evening.

Again, I mean no disrespect, but there is a problem in the logics. You claim that Yahudah is the parent name of "Y-d H-y V-v H-y", the Tetragrammaton. But merely pointing out similarities shows not that it is the parrent. Rather the opposite could be said. That Y-H-V-H is the parent of Yahudah.

Because there are similarities does not denote one to be originator. It must me explicitly proven that one is the parent before making the conclusion. As stated previously, Y-H-V-H is the oldest, by far and away, name of G-d. It can be shown to date back to at lest 700 b.c.

Marietta has done her homework well, studying the Kabbalah. But honestly even Kabbalah is not accepted blanketly by traditional (Orthodox or Consevative) Jews.
It is taught that you must be of 40 years of age to study Kabbalah. There are deep mystical concepts that are drawn from Torah, and can only be seen if Torah has been studied very closely for a number of years. The 72 letter name of G-d is an addition that was adapted later on during the dark ages. It was not a part of the original Kabbalah. It was said that Y'shua was able to do his miracles because he was outside the Temple and heard the Kohen HaGodal speak the name. As you can see it is quite a ridiculous story, and the 72 letter name was adapted through this story.

There are however, more ancient tradtions that say that the Tetragrammaton is not HaShem's true name. That His 'true' name was known by the ancients and is now lost.

There are also many historical sources that show a possiblity of G-d's name being Yah. That the "Veh" was added as a form of respect, and it can be seen with other names. Such parial texts of Tehillim have surfaced with "Yah" being the name of G-d. However, again the most ancient texts we have available show that His name is the Tetragrammaton. Any theory outside this is just that.... a theory.

Shalom,
Japheth

[simchat_torah]

I have gone over many texts of this forum over the past couple of days. I seem to have a conclusion, but if I am incorrect, please let me know. You seem to not accept Y'shua as the Moshiach, and with good reasons too.

But allow me to just say that your rejection (if it exists, and it is not simply my imagination) comes from two sources.

1) "J-sus" and the teachings of him by the ch-rch.
2) an misunderstanding of who the Mashiach was to be according to Judaism.

The first can be saved for another thread. It can go in several directions.

But I'd like to tackle the second issue here.

***What were the expectations of the Moshiach?***

I have seen in some of your posts that you see one of the Moshiach's purposes was to establish peace and another to establish a rulership.

There are two basic versions of the two Messiah theory:
1. The "rabbinic" two Messiah theory which held to a Messiah the son of Joseph, sometimes called "Ephraim." who would come and suffer to redeem his brothers (like the patriarch Joseph); and a Messiah the son of David who would come and rule from David's throne forever.
2. The "Qumran" two Messiah theory which held to a Priestly Aaronic Messiah and a Kingly Messiah.

I think that there are sages who equate these two theories into a single "dual" messiah theory. I would like to explore this idea further. Personally, as well as many ancient sages, I believe that the "dual" moshiachs are one. But this can be explored further later.

Let's just first examine Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben David.

The Rabbi's have always recognized an apparent conflict between certain Messianic passages. For example:

-----------------
R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses:
It is written:
And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds
of heaven. (Dan. 7:13)
Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowly, and riding upon an ass! (Zech. 9:9)
(b.San. 98a)
The Rabbinic "two Messiah" theory was one of several answers that the Rabbis found for these contradictions.
-----------------------

Rabbi Dosa (who lived around 250 CE) was a chief advocate of the two Messiah theory. The Talmud records that he taught regarding Zech. 12:10:

-----------------------------
What is the cause of the mourning [of Zech. 12:12]--... It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse:
And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. (Zech. 12:10) (b. Sukkot 52a)
----------------------------------------

Yet another tell us that these two are one:
Like Moses, Messiah will be revealed, then hidden, then revealed again. (Bamidbar Rabbah 11:2)

-------------------------------------------
Ephraim Messiah in Rabbinic literature is a Midrash in which the Messiah is being warned by G-d of what awaits him:

Their sins will be upon you like a yoke of iron. They will choke your spirit. Because of their sins, Your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth.
Do you accept this? If not, I will remove the decree from you. The Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, how long will this last?
G-d replies: "Ephraim, my true Messiah, ever since the six days of creation you have taken this ordeal upon yourself. At this moment, your pain is my pain"
Messiah replies: "Master of the worlds, I accept this with gladness in my soul, and joy in my heart, so that not a single one of the House of Israel should perish. Not only for those alive, but also the dead. It is enough that the servant be like the Master.
(Midresh Pesqita Rabbah 36)
--------------------------------------------------


(to be continued)

[simchat_torah]

The following is taken from the Shottenstein Talmud and involves a discussion of Zechariah 12:12:
The Gemara turns it attention to the verse that has just been cited:

What is the nature of this eulogy that the verse describes?

The Gemara replies:

R'Dosa and the Rabbis disagreed about it. One said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah decended from the tribe of Joseph who will have been killed in battle - while one said that it will be for the evil inclination that will have been "killed", i.e. eradicated, at that future time.

The Gemara questions the second view:

It is understandable according to the one who said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah descended from Joseph who will have been killed; that is why
the mourning will be so bitter, as it is written:

They will look toward me, the one they have stabbed; they will mourn over him as one mourns over an only [child] etc.

The death of God's annointed is certainly cause for great grief. But according to the one who said that the eulogy will be for the evil inclination who will have been killed, does that warrant a eulogy? On the contrary, it warrants a celebration! So why will they weep?

The Gemara answers:

It is as R' Yehudah expounded: In the future time, the Holy One, Blessed is He, will bring the evil inclination and slaughter it in the pressence of the righteous and in the presence of the wicked. To the righteous the evil
inclination will appear like a high mountain that can hardly be scaled, and to the wicked it will appear like a strand of hair that can easily be snapped. These will weep and these too will weep. The righteous will weep
and say: "How were we able to overcome such a high mountain?" And the wicked will weep and say: "How were we not able to overcome this strand of hair?"
And so too, the Holy One, Blessed is He, will wonder with them, as it says:
"Thus said Hashem, Lord of Hosts: As it will be wondrous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, so will it be wondrous in my eyes etc."
The Gemara cites a related teaching:

R' Assi said: Regarding the evil inclination: initially it resembles a spider's thread, but ultimately it resembles a cart rope. As it says: Woe unto those who draw iniquity with cords of nothingness and sin as with a cart
rope. What begins as cords of nothingness ultimately develops into cart ropes!

The Gemara cites a Baraisa which relates to the death of the Messiah descended from Joseph:

The Rabbis taught in a Baraisa: THE HOLY ONE, BLESSED IS HE, WILL SAY TO THE MESSIAH DESCENDED FROM DAVID (WHO WILL BE REVEALED, we pray, SPEEDILY IN OUR DAY): ASK A BOON OF ME AND I WILL GRANT IT TO YOU. AS IT SAYS: I SHALL PROCLAIM IT THAT IT SHOULD BE INSCRIBED AS A REMEMBRANCE etc...I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU THIS DAY. ASK OF ME AND I WILL GIVE NATIONS FOR YOUR INHERITANCE...BUT HAVING SEEN THAT THE MESSIAH DESCENDED FROM JOSEPH WAS KILLED, HE [THE MESSIAH DESCENDED OF DAVID] WILL SAY TO HIM: MASTER OF THE WORLD, I ASK YOU FOR NOTHING BUT LIFE itself. [GOD] WILL ANSWER HIM: As for LIFE, BEFORE YOU SAID IT YOUR FATHER DAVID ALREADY PROPHESIED ABOUT IT and his prayer that you should live has already GRANTED IT TO HIM etc.

The Gemara returns to the subject of the evil inclination:

Rav Avira expounded and others say it was R' Yehudah ben Levi: The evil inclination has seven names. The Holy One, Blessed is He, called it "evil" as it says: for the inclination of Man's heart is evil from his youth. Moses
called it "uncircumcized" as it says: And you shall circumcize the foreskin of your heart, i.e. you shall remove the evil inclination from your heart. David called it "impure" as it says: A pure heart create for me O God, i.e. a heart pure of the evil inclination, implying that there is such a thing as an impure heart, for the presence of the evil inclination is an impurity.
Solomon called it "the enemy" as it says: If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will be heaping coals on his head, and Hashem will reward you.

The Gemara adds a homiletic interpretation of the conclusion of this verse:
Do not read the conclusion of the verse: Hashem will reward you (y'shalem lach), but, rather, Hashem will pacify him [the evil inclination] for you (yashlimenu lach).

The Gemara continues:

Isaiah called it "a stumbling block", as it says: Pave! Pave! Clear a road! Remove the stumbling block from My people's path. Ezekiel called it "a stone", as it says: and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and
give you a heart of flesh. Joel called it "the hidden one", as it says: And I will distance the hidden one from you.

The Gemara elaborates on this verse, which describes the ultimate destruction of the evil inclination:

The Rabbis taught in a Baraisa: AND I WILL DISTANCE THE HIDDEN ONE FROM YOU. THIS refers to the EVIL INCLINATION WHICH IS HIDDEN AND LURKS IN MAN'S
HEART. AND I WILL BANISH HIM TO AN ARID AND DESOLATE LAND, that is, TO A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE NO PEOPLE FOR HIM TO INCITE. HIS FACE TO THE FIRST
SEA, FOR HE [the evil inclination] LAID HIS EYES ON THE FIRST TEMPLE AND DESTROYED IT. AND KILLED THE TORAH SCHOLARS THAT WERE IN IT. AND HIS END TO
THE LAST SEA, FOR HE LAID HIS EYES ON THE SECOND TEMPLE AND DESTROYED IT, AND KILLED THE TORAH SCHOLARS THAT WERE IN IT. AND HIS FOUL ODOR WILL RISE, this stench comes from his perversiveness, FOR HE LEAVES THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD AND INCITES THE ENEMIES OF ISRAEL to sin.

The Gemara expounds the final phrase of the verse:

FOR HE HAS DONE GREATLY. Abaye said: This means that he incites Torah scholars above all others. As in the following episode: For Abaye once overheard a certain man say to a certain woman, "Let us rise early and set
out together on our way." Thereupon, Abaye said to himself: I will follow behind them in order to keep them from transgression. He followed behind them for a distance of three parsahs in a meadow. When they reached a crossroads and took leave of one another, {Abaye} heard them say cordially to each other: Our paths lead far apart, so we cannot travel any further
together, but the company would have been pleasant had we been able to do so. Upon seeing this, Abaye said to himself: Were it my enemy who made the
journey with this woman, he would have been unable to restran himself from sin. He went and leaned against a door bolt and was despondent until a certain old man came and taught him: Whoever is greater than his fellow, his evil inclination is greater than his fellow's as well.
-----------------------------------------------------


The following is Footnote 1 from the Shottenstein Talmud (Succah 52a):

Zechariah 12:12

This verse comes from Zechariah's prophetic protrayal of the war of Gog and Magog, and the mournful eulogies that will attend the death of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph, whose advent will precede that of the Messiah, son of David, and who will be killed in that war. From the verse it is evident that even at such a sorrowful time men and women shall gather separately (Rashi).[At the time of the future redemption, the Messiah descended from Joseph will appear first to save the Jewish people.However, he will be killed during the war of Gog and Magog, and the full redemption will be brought about solely through the Messiah descended from David (see Maharsha; see also Targum Yonasan to Exodus 40:11; Bamidbar Rabbah 14:1; Rav Saadiah Gaon, Emunos V'Dei'os 8:5; Ramban, Commentary to Exodus 17:9 and to Song of Songs 8:13; Maharal, Netzach Yisrael 36). It should be noted that, according to Ramchal (Kinas Hashem Tzevaos, Bnei Brak 1980), based on Zohar, the decree of the death of the Messiah descended from Joseph has been nullified. According to Shnei Lchos HaBris (beis David 1:51), the period of the Messiah descended from Joseph will include the ingathering of the Exiles and the rebuilding of the Temple, but not a subverting of the natural order; death and sin will continue to exist. But the period of the Messiah descended from David will usher in a new natural order, in which death and sin will have no place.]

------------------------------------------------------------

The following is an excerpt from Midrash Pesiqta Rabba 36. I have added the personages as to whom is speaking which line.
Conversation between HaShem and Moshiach Ben Yosef (Ephraim):

Their sins will be upon you like a yoke of iron. They will choke your spirit. Because of their sins, your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth. Do you accept this? If not, I will remove the decree from you.The Messiah replies: Master of the worlds, how long will this last?G-d replies: Ephraim, my true Messiah, ever since the six days of creation you have taken this ordeal upon yourself. At this moment, your pain is my pain.Messiah replies: Master of the worlds, accept this with gladness in my soul, and joy in my heart, so that not a single one of the house of Israel should perish. Not only for those alive, but also the dead. It is enough that the servant be like the Master.

-------------------------------------------------------------

(to be continued)

[simchat_torah]

The following is an excerpt from the newsletter from Moshiach.com, a Chabad Lubavitch website and newsletter:
************************************
2. Moshiach Classics: Moshiach ben Yosef
************************************

Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Moshiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Moshiach ben David and Moshiach ben Yossef. The term Moshiach unqualified always refers to Moshiach ben David (Moshiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him. Moshiach ben Yossef (Moshiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Moshiach ben Ephrayim, Moshiach the descendant of Ephraim. He will come first, before the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy.The essential task of Moshiach ben Yossef is to act as precursor to Moshiach ben David: he will prepare the world for the coming of the final redeemer. Different sources attribute to him different functions, some even charging him with tasks traditionally associated with Moshiach ben David (such as the ingathering of the exiles, the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash, and so forth).The principal and final function ascribed to Moshiach ben Yossef is of political and military nature. He shall wage war against the forces of evil that oppress Israel. More specifically, he will do battle against Edom, the descendants of Esau.Edom is the comprehensive designation of the enemies of Israel, and it will be crushed through the progeny of Joseph. Thus it was prophesied, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble.." (Obadiah 1:18): "the progeny of Esau shall be delivered only into the hands of the progeny of Joseph." (Baba Batra 123b)This ultimate confrontation between Joseph and Esau is alluded already in the very birth of Joseph when his mother Rachel exclaimed, "G-d has taken away my disgrace" (Genesis 30:23): with prophetic vision she foresaw that an "anointed savior" will descend from Joseph and that he will remove the disgrace of Israel. In this context she called his name "Yossef, saying 'yossef Hashem - may G-d add to me ben acher (lit., another son), i.e., ben acharono shel olam - one who will be at the end of the world's time,' from which it follows that 'meshu'ach milchamah - one anointed for battle' will descend from Joseph." (Midrash Yelamdenu)The immediate results of this war will be disastrous: Moshiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10). His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Moshiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss.This, in brief, is the general perception of the "second Moshiach," the descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Ephraim.***Quite significantly, R. Saadiah Gaon (one of the few to elaborate on the role of Moshiach ben Yossef) notes that this sequence is not definite but contingent! Moshiach ben Yossef will not have to appear before Moshiach ben David, nor will the activities attributed to him or his death have to occur. All depends on the spiritual condition of the Jewish people at the time the redemption is to take place: The essential function of Moshiach ben Yossef is to prepare Israel for the final redemption, to put them into the proper condition in order to clear the way for Moshiach ben David to come. Of that ultimate redemption it is said, that if Israel repent (return to G-d) they shall be redeemed immediately (even before the predetermined date for Moshiach's coming). If they will not repent and thus become dependent on the final date, "the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a ruler over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, thus causing Israel to repent, and thereby bringing them back to the right path."In other words, if Israel shall return to G-d on their own and make themselves worthy of the redemption, there is no need for the trials and tribulations associated with the above account of events related to Moshiach ben Yossef. Moshiach ben David will come directly and redeem us.Moreover, even if there be a need for the earlier appearance of Moshiach ben Yossef, the consequences need not be as severe as described. Our present prayers and meritorious actions can mitigate these. R. Isaac Luria (Ari-zal) notes that the descendant of Joseph, by being the precursor of the ultimate Moshiach, is in effect kissey David, the "seat" or "throne" of David, i.e., of Moshiach. Thus when praying in the daily Amidah, "speedily establish the throne of Your servant David," one should consider that this refers to Moshiach ben Yossef and beseech G-d that he should not die in the Messianic struggle. As all prayers, this one, too, will have its effect. It follows, then, that all the above is not an essential or unavoidable part of the Messianic redemption that we await. Indeed, it - (and the same may be said of the climactic war of Gog and Magog) - may occur (or may have occurred already!) in modified fashion. This may explain why Maimonides does not mention anything about Moshiach ben Yossef while R. Saadiah Gaon and R. Hai Gaon, as well as a good number of commentators, do refer to him briefly or at length. In view of the divergent Midrashim and interpretations on this subject it is practically impossible to present a more definitive synopsis that would go far beyond the above. Thus it is wisest to cite and follow R. Chasdai Crescas who states that "no certain knowledge can be derived from the interpretations of the prophecies about Moshiach ben Yossef, nor from the statements about him by some of the Geonim;" there is no point, therefore, in elaborating on the subject.

------------------

Midrash Pesiqta Rabbati Chapter 27 describes Messiah’s triumph and the glory which he receives as a due reward for his humiliation and suffering on behalf of Israel.
It is based on Isaiah 41:10:

“The fathers of the world (the patriarchs) will rise again in the month of Nisan and will say to him, Ephraim, our righteous Messiah, though we are your fathers, yet you are greater than we, because you have borne the sins of our children, and hard and evil measure has passed upon you, such as has not been passed either upon those before or upon those after. And you have been for laughter and derision to the nations for the sake of Israel, and you have dwelled in darkness and in gloominess, and your eyes have not seen light, and your skin was cleaving to your bones, and your body was dry as wood, and your eyes were darkened through fasting, and your strength was dried up like a potsherd. And all this on account of the sins of our children. Is it your pleasure that our sons should enjoy the good things which the Holy One, blessed be He, has poured out so abundantly upon Israel? Or, perhaps, on account of the anguish which you have suffered so much for them, and because they have chained you in the prison house (i.e., this would indicate that he also suffered at the hands of his own people), perhaps you are not pleased with them?“He says to them, Fathers of the world, whatever I have done I have done only for your sakes, and for the sake of your children, for the sake of your honor and that of your children, and that they may enjoy the goodness which the Holy One, blessed be He, has poured out over Israel. Then the fathers say to him, Ephraim, our righteous Messiah, let your mind be at rest, as you have put the mind of your Maker at rest and also our mind.”-

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Rabbi Simeon, the son of Rabbi Pasi, said:
In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, exalts the Messiah to the heaven of heavens, and spreads over him the splendor of His glory. . . And the Holy One says: You righteous ones of the world, Ephraim, the Messiah of My righteousness, has not yet received even one half for all he has suffered. . ."
--Midrash Pesiqta Rabbati 27

----------------------------------------------------------

R. Berekiah said in the name of R. Isaac: As it is written, And the Lord showed me four craftsmen (Zech. II, 3), namely, Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah.
[Lit.,the priest anointed for war’, an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph’. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.]


---Song of Songs Rabbah 2:33

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...“the sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet”, “the sceptre” referring to the Messiah of the house of Judah, and “the staff” to the Messiah of the house of Joseph.

---Zohar, Volume 1, Page 25b
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Well, I hope that this helps.

Shalom,
Japheth

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Good evening Japheth
I have previously heard much of what you are saying, so I am somewhat familiar with it.

But, I personally feel the reason there is contradiction and/or confusion concerning the messiah is the same reason there is contradiction, etc., concerning many other issues. Simply being that there is more than one author of the Hebrew Scriptures.

I feel that we have two sets of Hebrew Scriptures which have been combined into one. Possibly, one is from the house of Israel and the other is from the house of Yahudah.

The house of Yahudah's version emphasizes <font color=purple>YHUH</font> as Elohim, while the house of Israel's version refers more simply to Elohim without the name.

These are just my personal ideas.</font>

[Thummim]

Hello simchat_torah. The end chapters of Zechariah are vague in what they represent. We are given some clues however. First, the enemy is identified as Egypt in Zech.14:18,19. We need this information to get an idea of what the author is trying to purvey. A pierced servant is identified by referring to the fate of Josiah in a former battle. This battle takes place against Necco, king of Egypt. Zech.12:11 identifies the place of the former battle as Hadad rimmon in the valley of Megiddon. This battle shows Judah under the domination of Egypt prior to the appearance of the king of Babylon. 2nd Chr.35:22-25 gives an account of these things. If I understand, Judah is to rise up against Egypt and in a disputed set of battles, is in the end with YHWH's help, supposed to come out victorious. There will be a leader who is to be pierced through with an arrow. As with Josiah, all Judea and Jerusalem is to mourn apart from each other for their leader as though he is their only and firstborn son. In the shadow of the holocaust, this is a very small victory. If this really represents a messiah, he is a little one. Of more interest is the fountain that is opened up to cleanse the house of Judah. I read that the prophets of their time shall be ashamed of their prophecies. I think they should be. The conclusion of Zechariah states that there will no longer be a cannanite in the house of Judah. Didn't Judah marry a cannanite in the 38th chapter of Genesis? Perhaps a healing of this breach is being refered to. I read that Judah fights at Jerusalem in Zech14:14. This then, cannot be Armageddon. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to comment on. I do not believe that (jesus) is the messiah. Does the Eloheem that hates the spilling of innocent blood (for which Cain is cursed), require innocent blood to be spilled for the remission of sin? Who can say which name between YHWH and Yahudah is the parent name. What matters most is the link that can be made between these names. A messiah is not what Yahudeem need. They need someone who can redeem their name out of the damage that christianity has done to it. If (jesus) is a messiah, Yahudeem cannot survive another. I do believe that the throne of David bears the name of YHWH. Speaking of David, But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. Ps.89:24 Speaking of Ephraim, And I will strenthen them in YHWH; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith YHWH. Zech.10:12 ....Michael

[Thummim]

I had forgotten a verse of text that puts the name of Yahudah before the name of YHWH. Ex. 6:3 identifies El being known to Abraham as Shaddai and not YHWH. This makes the parent name of YHWH, Yahudah and not the other way around. This also shows earlier text to be dated to when Ex.6:3 is written or after. So whoever writes the text of Genesis, must write it in the time of the other books of the torah. Does this mean that the torah has only one author? It seems to make it more likely that the torah is written by a single author. The author cannot have first hand knowledge of the things which predate his time. This makes it likely that the author chose the name of his Eloheem. He knew the name of Shaddai but (possibly) chose the name of YHWH. I've heard that YHWH poses this verse as a question, but don't believe it. Why would the author than identify the name that Abraham knew his El by as Shaddai? If this line of information were left out, than YHWH could have been saying," Don't you think that Abraham knew me as YHWH, so what's wrong with you?". YHWH-YHWDH? Is there a relationship between these names? I think so. ....Michael

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Good morning to you. The fulfillment or completion of the Scriptures is the pathway of life. Not many find the secret of this fulfillment. The reason they don't is because it is simply not shown to them. It is a gift from YAHWEH. There are many questions for which you may find direct answers in the Old Testament, but all things are not openly spelled out so that everyone may understand everything. That is not the way it is meant to be. Otherwise, all would find the pathway.

Are you the type of person who gets jealous? Some react to unfaithfulness with jealousy. Some don't. YAHWEH gets jealous. YAHWEH is a jealous Adonai. Unfaithfulness makes him angry and wrathful. The Jews by their unfaithfulness, which by the way continues to this very day, have made YAHWEH extremely angry. You have asked for a scripture from the Old Testament that proves that the Jews have been replaced. Well, I will begin by asking you to read and contemplate the curses of Deuteronomy 28 and tell me exactly when you think that they have ended?

If you tell me that they have ended, then I am going to ask you to explain who the foolish race is that YAHWEH said HE would use to make the Jews jealous? This tribe is not a people. They have no descent that they can prove:
Deut 32:20-22
20 <font color="blue">And he said,</font color><font color="990000"> I will hide my face from them </font color>(the covenanted people)<font color="990000">, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no <B>faith</b>.</font color>
21 <font color="990000">They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not EL; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a <B>foolish</b> nation.</font color>
22 <font color="990000">For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.</font color> (KJV)What does the word "foolish" imply? It implies a people who do not have the covenant of Israel which is the Torah. So, YAHWEH says that HE HIMSELF is going to make the Jews jealous by entering into a relationship with those lacking wisdom (see Deuteronomy 4:6 in order to understand that "wisdom" is the doing of the Torah). Now, I ask you, Sandy, is YAHWEH a fornicator? Does YAHWEH have the right and freedom to enter into a relationship with whomever HE desires? So, YAHWEH will enter into a relationship with a people who have been lifted up and removed from the ground of their origin. All these foolish ones are not part of the Old Covenant. They are a foolish people, but YAHWEH does enter into a relationship with them in order to make HIS unfaithful former wife, the Jews, jealous.

So, look around. Where is this foolish tribe who now has a relationship with YAHWEH? Where is Joseph? You are in the dark. You must be able to see in the dark in order to know. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you should work to observe the Sabbath from Friday evening sunset to Saturday evening sunset. That may help enlighten your darkness? Until then, have a good Sabbath daylight, Sandy!

Sincerely, Spying

[Moses]

Greetings Thummim,
You wrote:
>> Without the knowledge of Urim and Thummim, you cannot properly serve the name of YHWH. Why build a temple for the name of YHWH, if you've lost the knowledge that goes with this name?<<

My reply:
I think just maybe the Urim and Thummim were two stones that created the vibrational tone of HaShem. I also think that just maybe these stones are what are called the Philosopher's stone. Again I will emphisize that I believe it is all vibration.

Shalom, Marietta

[Thummim]

That's interesting Marietta. In the context of their location within the tanakh, urim are the names that go with twelve stones. I've always thought of a single stone as being different in it's relationship to the name of El. But there is a second stone that also stands out. It's the stone of Joseph. These stones go with the names that are concerned with most of the stories within the tanakh. That seems like a vibration to me. Twelve stones represent twelve names. But take two of them away and there is not much left. Is this Kaballah? I am concerned with the strenth of names. I'm counting on the name of YHWH being strong enough to redeem the name of Yahudah. YHWH is referred to as a rock. I think this is so because Davids rock has the same name as his stone (Ex.28:21-). I want to bring these two names together. Gen.49:11 shows the connection between the name of Yahudah and the name of Joseph, the vine. These are to become one in the hand of YHWH. That would make a certain sound or vibration. Then the stone of David and his rock (YHWH), would make a particular vibration also when they strike each other. Though I don't understand these concepts, I consider them. There is a kind of sense to this logic. I think more in terms of names than vibrations, but it wouldn't have occured to me that bringing various things together changes the sounds that they make. Thank you for your insight. Perhaps it will shed new light on my concerns. ....Michael

[Moses]

Japheth,
Blessing the comeing of the Lord our God, King of the Universe, whatever his name may be,

You wrote:
>>honestly even Kabbalah is not accepted blanketly by traditional (Orthodox or Consevative) Jews.<<

My reply:
I don't know what you mean by this statement. Could you please make it a little clearer for me?

You wrote:
>>It is taught that you must be of 40 years of age to study Kabbalah. There are deep mystical concepts that are drawn from Torah, and can only be seen if Torah has been studied very closely for a number of years.<<

My reply:
My understanding on this is that, one must prove their loyaltymaturity for at least 40 years through the study of Torah. Torah proves ones loyaty/maturity by the person who is doing the studying finding the Kaballah within the Torah. This does not mean that a person can not find the Kaballah on their own before the age of 40, it only means that a Rabbi/teacher of Kaballah will not teach a preson before the age of 40. This is because a smart Rabbi knows that a person must live at least 40 years to reach a mature nature.

You wrote:
>>The 72 letter name of G-d is an addition that was adapted later on during the dark ages. It was not a part of the original Kabbalah.<<

Could the 72 letter name which has made its was down to 4 letters, change as we gain more knowledge into a single dot or tittle. I think that just maybe, the name only consists of one jot or tittle of a letter and it is the very soft vibration of this jot of tittle of a certain letter that composes the essence of the true name.

The Kaballah is nothing other that the Torah in its pure form. The word Shem in Hebrew means reputation, and according to Merrian-Webster it means: distinguished reputation (verb).

You wrote:
>>It was said that Y'shua was able to do his miracles because he was outside the Temple and heard the Kohen HaGodal speak the name. As you can see it is quite a ridiculous story, and the 72 letter name was adapted through this story.<<

My reply:
I have never heard this story, however it doesn't sound rediculous to me.

You wrote:
>>Such parial texts of Tehillim have surfaced with "Yah" being the name of G-d. However, again the most ancient texts we have available show that His name is the Tetragrammaton.<<

My reply:
What text of Psalm are you speaking of that uses "Yah" as the sacred name? You are aware that yah can be translated as "Woe!" Aren't you? This is all in the hands of the translator.

However, last night I was think about the 72 letter name and it making its way down to 4 letters, I was think that just maybe the name only consists of one jot or tittle of a letter and it is the very soft vibration of this jot of tittle of a certain letter that composes the essence of the true name.

Just something to think about.

Shalom, Marietta

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Marietta,

-------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
>>honestly even Kabbalah is not accepted blanketly by traditional (Orthodox or Consevative) Jews.<<

My reply:
I don't know what you mean by this statement. Could you please make it a little clearer for me?
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sure. What I meant by this was that even in traditional well established Jewish circles the Kabbalah isn't blaketly accepted. But rather it is intended to be a teaching tool, not pure truth.

There are great mysteries within Kabbalah that can only be understood with a deep understanding of Torah.

I wasn't intending to stray people from studying Kabbalah, but there is so much that either has a different meaning than the face value or has other hidden meanings. One should not try to tackle Kabbalah without a firm foundation.

You said:
"The Kaballah is nothing other that the Torah in its pure form. "

Well, actually it is teaching drawing from Torah. And I don't know of any Jewish sect that considers it pure. It is especially meant to be taken as symbollic. Torah is pure. Kabbalah explains hidden mysteries within Torah, but in no way what so ever supercedes Torah.
Torah is ultimate truth.

I must ask at this point what you are referring to when you say Kabbalah. There are many Judaic texts which qualify for this title. There is the book of Creation, the Bahir, and many more. The most famous, and also most cryptic, being the Zohar.
Which text are you speaking of?
And almost more importantly, who have you read (or studied from) to understand the cryptic symbolism used in Kabbalistic writings?

These questions are very important.

----------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
>>It was said that Y'shua was able to do his miracles because he was outside the Temple and heard the Kohen HaGodal speak the name. As you can see it is quite a ridiculous story, and the 72 letter name was adapted through this story.<<

My reply:
I have never heard this story, however it doesn't sound rediculous to me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It is ridiculous in that Y'shua was able to do what he did because of who he was, not from some mystical knowledge. This would lead to new age theology where we can all attain the level of Y'shua if we just had some mystical knowledge that Y'shua had.
He is Moshiach.


Shalom Marietta, and good luck with the studies.
Japheth

[simchat_torah]

I was pondering something last night. Where have you derived Yehudah? Where did you first hear of it being the name of G-d? Are you a "Sacred Name" believer? And what ancient texts use Yehudah as the name of G-d?

The answers to the above questions will help me understand where you are coming from.

Shalom,
J.

[Thummim]

Hi Japheth. Judah ( yod-hey-vav-daleth-hey) is the hebrew spelling for the name of the fourth son of Jacob as found in Gen.29:35. Using the KJV, it says,"And she concieved again and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise YHWH: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing." This is the beginning of the line of Judah. It was about ten years ago when I got this hunch. I could sense the author creating his faith. I thought that the author had to somehow connect the name of his GD to the people of his concern. There needed to be a connection. I followed my hunch and checked out the spelling of Yahudah and became very excited to find that there was only a letter difference between the two. Next I needed to prove that it was more than coincidence. Discovering the breach in the heavens, (the sun was created at the wrong time), and knowing how the neviim had prophecied a problem with the heavens, the proof that I was looking for started to come to me. As goes with the fourth letter, so it goes with the fourth day. I asked myself, would I give my Eloheem an uncircumcised name? This idea of all israel being in covenant with their Eloheem seemed like it should extend further to YHWH. I'm aware that the author knows that you can't plant the earth before the sun is created. He knows about seasons. Even the least educated of people know that there is a time to plant. I began to look at the authors work as though he were creating it himself like an author of fiction. He must set up his story and provide the necessary facts to make it understandable. So I looked for the planted information. There is a problem with firstborns and there is a definate desire to refrain from marrying cannanites. These things work into the story of Judah. How does one connect the name of YHWH to the name of Judah, if that is the authors intent? He might set the name of Judah in breach. Twins (Jacob and Esau), Twins (Perez and Zerah). A latter born keeps getting the right of the first born. It flows perfectly through the generations surrounding the tribe of Judah. It is Judah that ends up with the temple where the name of YHWH will be served. Deut.12:5 points to Ps.78:67,68 where it tells us that the selected tribe for YHWH's sanctuary is the tribe of Judah, and not Joseph. I might add that it also says that the people of YHWH bear his name in many places within the tanakh. "Since the day that I brought forth my people out of the land of Egypt I chose no city among all the tribes of Israel to build an house in, that my name might be there; neither chose I any man to be a ruler over my people Israel, 2nd Chr.6:5". Reading on, it is truly the tribe of Judah, "Yahudah", that is chosen to bear the name. The city being Jerusalem. * [2ndChr.7:14 Ps.89:24 Isa.43:7 Jer.14:9, 15:16 Dan.9:19 and Mi.4:5] make some allusion to this. If one bears the name of YHWH and he defiles himself, doesn't he also defile the name of GD? Jer. 13:11 states," For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith YHWH; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear. The idea is one of a connection between Eloheem and people that exceeds the attachment of any other people to their gods. Isa. 46:3,4 even has YHWH giving birth to his people. Isa.48:1 has the tribe of Judah doing this. Authors hint? YHWH is father, YHWH is husband. Isn't Judah also father? These are a matter of name, the name of a mishpachah (family). Within this family, all the squabbles that happen in any family occur. I truly believe that the name of Yahudah comes before the name of YHWH in an author created tanakh. By the tanakh, the name of Judah is known before the name of YHWH, (to Moses) if we believe that Abraham knew his Eloheem as Shaddai. Ex.6:3 The word interpreted as wonderful in Isa.9:6 KJV is the same word used in telling Mannoah why he cannot know the angels name. (panai) Isa. 9:6 goes on to tell us that he (upon the throne of David) shall be called, the mighty GD, among other things. Davids lamp given to him by YHWH (1Ki.11:36) is the tribe of Yahudah. Through the name of YHWH, he gets his strenth, "In my name shall his horn be exalted". Ps.89:24 The sons of the living GD inherit a name, or so I believe. Hos.1:10. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel and I will bless them. Nu.6:27, *Deut. 28:10 even states thus, And the people of all the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of YHWH; and they shall be afraid of thee. There are many paths to the name of YHWH coming from the name of Yahudah. One of my favorites has nothing to do with the tanakh. It's simply the odds of four of the five letters shared between the name of Yahudah and the name of YHWH being a match. It comes out 22 x 22 x 22 x 22 = 234256 to 1. Something may be going on here. Now my passion is to connect the name of YHWH to all JEWs. I believe that this robe of glory will protect their lives as well as providing them an everlasting blessing. Can a people who look like YHWH, (in his image) also bear his name? It depends on what the author(s) have in mind while they write their tanakh. O YHWH our adonai, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who has set thy glory above the heavens. (literally, as per the problem with the heavens) ....Michael

[Moses]

Japheth,

You wrote:
>>What I meant by this was that even in traditional well established Jewish circles the Kabbalah isn't blaketly accepted. But rather it is intended to be a teaching tool, not pure truth.<<

My reply:
When you find yourself within the midst of truly Jewish circles you will find that they still live in fear and don't share what they truly believe. That is until one is 40 years old and has approved himself. The proving that must be done, is that of loyalty and secreacy.

You wrote:
>>There are great mysteries within Kabbalah that can only be understood with a deep understanding of Torah.<<

My reply:
There are great mysteries within 'Torah' that can only be understood with a deep understanding of 'Kaballah.' However Kaballah can't be understood without the Torah. This is a profound mystery.

You wrote:
>>actually it is teaching drawing from Torah. And I don't know of any Jewish sect that considers it pure.<<

My reply:
What I said is that Kaballah is the pure teachings of the 'Torah'. Torah is Kaballah and Kaballah is Torah, making Torah pure.

You wrote:
>>Torah is ultimate truth.<<

My reply:
Torah is indeed ultimate truth! Kaballah is a commantary of sorts on Torah.

You wrote:
>>I must ask at this point what you are referring to when you say Kabbalah.<<

My reply:
When I say Kaballah I mean Torah.
Torah literally means: a book containing the principles of any branch of science, teaching, theory, system.

Here is something I just translated, using the method of translation I am in the process of learning:

Exodus 6
3. therefore a square unit powers flight power works side encircling sun on horizon and power works experience sun on horizon breaking open within power fields therefore that ‘mi’ (musical note) works opening connecting doorway not to strike/swallow.

You wrote:
>>There are many Judaic texts which qualify for this title. There is the book of Creation, the Bahir, and many more. The most famous, and also most cryptic, being the Zohar.Which text are you speaking of?<<

My reply:
All of the above and none of the above. The above are commantaries of the Kaballah and the Kaballah is a commantary of Torah.

You wrote:
>>And almost more importantly, who have you read (or studied from) to understand the cryptic symbolism used in Kabbalistic writings?<<

My reply:
99% of my understanding has come to me entirely from prayer. I have spent most of my 52 years of life in prayer and study of the bible (all 66 books). I came to a point where I did nothing but pray, day and night, to the point that I didn't know when I was asleep and when I was awake. I developed insomnia and it was during this period that I was given my understanding.
I didn't know that what I was learning was Kaballah, until I started sharing with others and they asked me if it was Kaballah. At this point I started to read a little about the Kaballah. My favorite is Rabbi Y. Ashlag.

You wrote:
These questions are very important.

My reply:
Now answer the same for me.

You wrote:
>>>It is ridiculous in that Y'shua was able to do what he did because of who he was, not from some mystical knowledge. This would lead to new age theology where we can all attain the level of Y'shua if we just had some mystical knowledge that Y'shua had.
He is Moshiach.<<<<

My reply:
Y'shua was able to hear the tone because of who he was. If there is power in the vibrational tone of hashem and it was given to Y'shua through hearing this tone given by the High Priest, what mysticiam do you find in this? All thing are performed in this shem in the scriptures are they not?

Shalom, Marietta

[simchat_torah]

I will address the questions about my specific study of Kabbalah in greater detail later. First I will reply to a few other aspects of the above post.

Y'shua is HaMoshiach. It is because of who he is that he was able to perform what he was able to do. It was not some mystical knowledge that he had. He is the annointed. He is the L-rd. He was given authority over all flesh. He was given authority in this physical world by the Father for who he was, not for some secret name he knew. I could use a plethera of verses to back this up, but hopefully you now see what I am getting at.

Next, what is Kabbalah? and what is Torah?

I think your definition of Torah, you will find to be somewhat misconstrued. Torah has a few definitions:
Righteousness, Wisdom, Instruction, Teaching and yes. laws (mitzvot)
torah (not Torah) simply means revelations. I think that you have the definition of Kabbalah and torah mixed a bit. Kabbalah, as you admitted in your last post, is commentary on Torah. Can Torah be understood without Kabbalah? Yes. Can the same understandings be gained without Kabbalah as with Kabbalah? Yes. But Kabbalah is a teaching tool to guide and help come to these revelations more easily.

Lastly, there is an entirely seperate issue to address. It is mysticism of sorts. How one base a belief on the statement "I was praying and G-d told me this x, y, and z are truth." One could believe this person, but would have nothing to base their belief upon. for example, you saying that G-d's name can be broken down from Y-d H-y V-v H-y to a single soft vibration, and IS the name of G-d, can not be relied upon as truth. (I know you were not claiming this as factual, but I'm using it as a hypothetical situation). This person would have no way of basing that truth upon any foundation. How could they accept it?
I have known many people through the years who want to base theology upon mysticism. It is not wrong by any means to say that HaShem spoke to you, or to give direction someone by the leading Ruach HaKodesh. But we need to be cautious when basing doctrine upon mystical concepts.

Shalom,
Japheth

P.S. I never condemn mystical ways of seeking G-d, it is just not wise to base entire doctrine or theology SOLEY upon such means.

[Moses]

Greetings Japheth,

I think you have misunderstood me. I base all that I believe on the holy scriptures and none else. What you call mystism to me is the holy spirit leading me in my study of these scriptures. Everything that I have been shown is in the scriptures. What I have come to see in the Torah lines up with the Kaballah, however I believe the Torah to be the basis of the Kaballah.
I hope I am making myself clear. It is probably the way in which I present things, that makes it difficult to understand. I need to spend time rereading what I write.
I am eager to hear about your Kaballah studies. I am hoping to learn a thing or two.
Shalom, Marietta

[Thummim]

Baruch hashem Marietta
I’ve been thinking about what you told me, how everything has a vibration. I’ve come to the conclusion that you are right. This vibration is like a tone made by all things, though I do not believe that the vibration of anything is definable by itself. It works better to think of this vibration as a tone that is made when two things strike each other. When things come together, they sound a note which can be pleasant and in harmony or discordant and unpleasant. If I take a stone and ponder it by itself, it returns little information. (no tone) Yet if I take this stone and strike another stone with it, I hear a sound. It is this sound of interaction that defines all things. Now I realize that this is the way we seek meaning in torah. We have to take differing concepts and strike them one against the other to hear the vibrations that the collisions give off. Listening to the sounds, we can follow the desired and similar tones, to find our revelations. Its like ideas moving through time to find a listener. Kaballah than teaches us how to listen. Thank you for this revelation. Perhaps it will shed new light on the name of YHWH and how to link it to Eloheems people. ……………....Michael

The name of YHWH is a strong tower; The righteous run into it and is safe. Prov.18:10

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Jesus in the Jewish Tradition pp. 148-154 by Goldstein

In the days of King Jannaeus, year 3671, a great misfortune befell Israel. There arose a disreputable man of the tribe of Judah named Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah.

Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing.

At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and submitted only against her will.

Later, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of Miriam. Yohanan went to Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah and related to him the tragic seduction. Lacking witnesses required for the punishment of Joseph Pandera, and Miriam being with child, Yohanan left for Babylonia.

Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu. On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition.

One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the son of a niddah. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph Pandera. After this became known, it was necessary for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.

After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene ruled over all Israel. In the Temple was the Foundation Stone on which were engraved the letters of God's Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten.

Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon parchment which he placed in a cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But going to his house he opened the cut and lifted out the writing. Thereby obtaining the use of the letters.

He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, "I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.'" He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, "David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: 'The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.'"

The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Name and the leper was healed. Therefore they worshipped him as the Messiah.

When word of this came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He acquired an ass on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.

The Sages bound and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation: "This man is a sorcerer." Yeshu replied, "The prophets long ago prophesied my coming: 'There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly.'"

Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him. He has not fulfilled the signs and conditions of the Messiah."

Yeshu said: "Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead." A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: "This is a true sign." She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence. Yeshu's dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel.

Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him.

They found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: "Wage no battle." He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone placed upon the waters and sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. And these wonders were reported to the Queen.

Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Name as Yeshu had done.

When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, the Sages and Judah Iskarioto were present also. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth.

The elders asked Iskarioto to do likewise and flying toward heaven he attempted to force Yeshu down to earth, but neither one of the two could prevail against the other. However, Iskarioto defiled Yeshu, so that they both lost their power and fell down to the earth, and in their condition of defilement the letters of the Name escaped from them.

Yeshu was seized, but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the Ineffable Name.

Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and was bound to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover.

Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ass. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto apprised the Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a counter-verse by the Sages.

Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree." They buried him outside the city.

On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden.

Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

The disciples went out among the nations--three went to the mountains of Ararat, three to Armenia, three to Rome and three to the kingdoms by the sea, They deluded the people, but ultimately they were slain.</font>

[Moses]

Michael, Thanks for the reply. I never thought of it quite like that. I like what you have written.
Shalom, Marietta