Final Sacrifice? [Archive] - LO-AMMI DISCUSSION FORUMS

Sandy

01-26-2001, 11:54 AM

New Testament writers tell us Iesous (Jesus/Yahshua) was the final sacrifice and only through his blood can one receive forgiveness. Is that true? Is that what the Hebrew Scriptures say?

New Testament verses appear in brown. Rebuttal from the Hebrew Scriptures appear in blue.

Hebrews 9
26) ...But now one time, on the completion of the ages for putting away of sin through his sacrifice he has been revealed.
27) And as it is reserved to men one time to die, and after this judgment, so the Christos, one time having been offered for the many to bear sins, a second time without sin, will appear to those expecting him for salvation.
Hebrews 10
4) It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
9) Then he said, Behold, I come to do your will Theos. He takes away the first, that he may set up the second,
10) by which we will be sanctified through the offering of the body of Iesou Christou one time.
11) And indeed every priest stands day by day ministering, and offers frequently the same sacrifices, which can never take away sin;

Numbers 15
22) And when you shall stray and not observe all these commands which YHUH has spoken to Moses,
23) even all that YHUH has commanded you by the hand of Moses from the day that YHUH commanded, and onward for your generations;
24) Then it shall be, if it be done in error by the assembly, by ignorance, even all the assembly shall offer a son of the herd for a burnt offering, for soothing fragrance to YHUH, and its food offering and its drink offering according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25) And the priest shall make atonement for all the assembly of the sons of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them.
27) And if one person sins through error, then he shall offer a she-goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28) And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that strayed, when he sins through ignorance, before YHUH, to make atonement for him and he shall be forgiven.
29) Both he that is native among the sons of Israel and the sojourner that lives among them, you shall have one Torah for the one who acts in ignorance.
30) And the person that does anything with a high hand, whether of native or of sojourner, he blasphemes YHUH; and that person shall be cut off from the midst of his people,
31) Because he has despised the word of YHUH and has broken his command. That soul shall be utterly cut off, his iniquity shall be on him.

Hebrews 10
18) But wherever forgiveness is there is no longer offering concerning sins.
19) Having therefore, brothers, confidence for the entering of the Holies by the blood of Iesou,
20) Which he consecrated for us. A way, new and living, through the veil; this is his flesh.
22) ...our hearts having been sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies having been washed in pure water;

Ezekiel 43
4) and the glory of YHUH came into the house, the way of the gate facing eastward.
5) and the spirit took me up and brought me into the inner court. And, behold, the glory of YHUH filled the house.
6) and I heard one speaking to me from the house, and standing beside me was a man;
7) and he said to me, son of man, the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, there where I will dwell among the sons of Israel FOREVER...
18) and he said to me, son of man, so says YHUH; these are the statutes of the altar in the day of its being made to offer on it burn offerings, and to sprinkle on it blood.
19) and you shall give to the priests of the Levites, they who are the seed of Zadok, who approach to me, declares YHUH , to minister to me, a bull, a son of the herd for a SIN OFFERING.
22) ...for a SIN OFFERING...
25) For seven days you shall daily prepare a he-goat for a SIN OFFERING...
27) and when the days are completed, it shall be on the eighth day and forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you declares YHUH.
Ezekiel 44
1) And he brought me back the way of the gate of the outer sanctuary, facing east, and it was shut.
2) and YHUH said to me, This gate shall be shut; it will not be opened and a man shall not enter by it, because YHUH, the Elohy of Israel, has entered by it; so it shall be shut.
3) As for THE PRINCE, as PRINCE he shall sit in it to eat bread before YHUH. He shall enter by the way of the porch of the gate and by his way shall go out.
Ezekiel 45
16) All the people of the land shall be at this heave offering for the PRINCE in Israel.
17) And the burnt offerings shall be on THE PRINCE and a food offering, and the drink offerings, in the feasts and on the new moons and on the sabbaths in all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel. He shall prepare THE SIN OFFERING, food offering, burnt offering and the peace offerings TO ATONE for the house of Israel.
25) And THE PRINCE shall prepare on that day for himself AND for the people of the land, a bull for a SIN OFFERING.
Ezekiel 46
20) and he said to me, This is the place, there where the priests shall boil the GUILT OFFERING and the SIN OFFERING, where they shall bake the food offering so as not to bring out to the outer court, to sanctify the people.
Ezekiel 47
8) and he said to me, These waters go out toward the eastern circuit, and go down into the Arabha and enter the sea. They are brought out into the sea and the waters shall be healed;
9) and it shall be, every soul that lives, which swarms in every place, there where the two torrents go, shall live and there shall be very many fish, because these waters shall come ther and they shall be healed...
12) and all trees for food shall go up by the torrent, on its bank on this die and on that; its leaf shall not face and its fruit shall fail; it will bear by its months, because its waters come out from the sanctuary and its fruit shall be for food and its leaf for healing.
21) And you shall divide this land for yourselves by the tribes of Israel.
22) And it will be, you shall make if fall by lot for an inheritance to yourselve, and to the sojourner who dwells among you, who shall father sons among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the sons of Israel. They shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.
Ezekiel 48
35) ...and the name of the city FROM THAT DAY SHALL BE YHUH SHAMMAH (YHUH IS THERE).

This tells me that Iesous (Jesus/Yahshu) was not the final sacrifice for sin and that parts of the book of Revelation are a plagiarism of Ezekiel.

Sacrifices and offerings for sin will again be required.

The Zadoks are of the seed of the Levites that did not sin against YHUH and they will minister to YHUH, but the seed of the Levites that sinned against YHUH will minister to the people.

Spying

01-27-2001, 08:56 AM

Hi Sandy,

Good Daylight and Happy Sabbath Day to you and yours. Thank you for this topic. I will work to participate on this thread, but several other threads also have my attention. I will also eventually answer here your last post to me on the "Is All Israel Saved?" thread.

In my humble opinion Ezekiel's Temple is a description of the Spiritual Temple in Messiah. Eventually, there may be a third physical Temple in Jerusalem, but any such temple made with hands will not be the fulfillment of what you read about in Ezekiel.

You have quoted both Hebrews and Numbers. What goes on through your mind when you hear the phrases: "take away sin" or "take away sins"? Do you think of sin actually disappearing in your life, or do you think that the writer is saying that our sins are being taken away only in the mind or consciousness of YAH?

Do you therefore equate "take away sin" with the forgiveness of sins? The two may not be the same. I want you to tell me how you view forgiveness and how you view taking away?

Obviously, Sandy when the author of Hebrews speaks of entering the Holy of Holies by the blood of Messiah, he is not claiming that we enter the physical Holy of Holies in the physical Temple with the physical blood of Messiah. The Tzaddikim believe that the physical Holy Place and the Holy of Holies are a picture of the heart of YAH. The Life of Messiah is in his blood. The Tzaddikim believe that our life in Messiah is by Faith. Thus, you could more or less say that we believe that faith and blood are somewhat synonymous. Through faith the Tzaddikim are priests of YAH, and we serve him in the Holiest because we are a part of the very life blood of Messiah.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

01-27-2001, 02:24 PM

Hello Spying
I feel the Scriptures speak for themselves.
Hebrews 10
4) It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away (#851) sins.
9) Then he said, Behold, I come to do your will Theos. He takes away the first, that he may set up the second,
10) by which we will be sanctified through the offering of the body of Iesou Christou one time.
11) And indeed every priest stands day by day ministering, and offers frequently the same sacrifices, which can never take away (4014) sin;
Numbers 15
24) Then it shall be, if it be done in error by the assembly, by ignorance, even all the assembly shall offer a son of the herd for a burnt offering, for soothing fragrance to YHUH, and its food offering and its drink offering according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25) And the priest shall make atonement (3722) for all the assembly of the sons of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them (5455).
Greek #851 aphaireo; to remove (lit. or fig.).
Greek #4014 periaireo; to remove[/u] all around, i.e. unveil, cast off (anchor); fig. to [i]expiate.
Hebrew #3722 kaphar; to cover; fig to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel.
Hebrew #5545 calach; to forgive.

Spying wrote:
In my humble opinion Ezekiel's Temple is a description of the Spiritual Temple in Messiah. Eventually, there may be a third physical Temple in Jerusalem, but any such temple made with hands will not be the fulfillment of what you read about in Ezekiel. Where may I ask does it indicate in the Hebrew Scriptures that Ezekiel's temple will be spiritual and not physical?

Spying

01-29-2001, 06:06 AM

Hi Sandy,

I was informed yesterday in Sabbath Assembly that I may have spoken presumptuously concerning what the Tzaddikim believe concerning the symbolic meaning of the Blood of Messiah. Internally, we still argue concerning many of these things. So, I want you to know that what I just related to you concerning the Blood is my opinion.

Open up a little, Sandy. Don't be so apprehensive about exposing yourself. Again, you didn't tell me anything while at the same time you imply that I have been told every thing. If the scriptures are so clear, why are we even bothering to discuss this issue. I see that apairo and periaireo both have a literal and figurative meaning. "Airo" can variously mean to take up, lift, raise; bear, carry; take away, remove; destroy, kill. "Aireo" can simply mean "to take" in the sense of taking sides. Hence, "airesis" can mean "a sect or faction". "Apo" is a preposition with means "away from". "Peri" is a preposition with various meanings, but when used as a preposition of place, it generally means "about or all around". Thus, when "peri" is combined with "aireo" the verb now has a sense of taking away all around. It can mean to unveil. This is how it is used in 2 Corinthians 3:16. It can also be used to weigh anchor or lift up or cast off anchor. This is how it is used in Acts 27:40. The idea conveyed in both usages is one of complete reversal. "Apairo" is a combination of "apo" and "airo". "Apairo" simply means to take away from. These are the literal usages.

While as you note both Greek verbs can be taken figuratively, who is to say that we should not take Hebrews 10:4 and Hebrews 10:11 in a literal sense? Sin can be removed from the sinner. If sin can be removed or taken away completely, then the sinner is no longer a sinner. He is now a saint. Killing animals has no power to take away my sin; however, if you should kill me, then my sin is removed, is it not? This is the taking away of sin that occurs in the death of Messiah.

On the other hand, you also note that killing animals has the power to atone or make up for my sin, and with the atonement comes forgiveness. This is true. That is what the scripture says. I can atone for my sin by killing an animal if the sin was unintentional. If the sin was intentional, I am out of luck. However, if I should sin again unintentionally, I must atone again. If it is the same sin, my sin may very well have been atoned for, but my sin was not taken away, was it? The problem with the Jews back then is the very same problem that the Christians have today: There is a lot of atoning for sin and alot of forgiving sin, but very little removing of it, very little taking away of sin:
I Jn 3:4-7
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away (airo) our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (KJV)Concerning the House of YAH, YAHWEH promised David that the kingdom of his Seed would be an eternal kingdom:
1 Chr 17:11-14
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. (KJV)This promise was not fulfilled with Solomon because his kingdom came to an end. Therefore, I consider this promise to be messianic. It refers to the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of his kingdom. So, Messiah will build YAHWEH a house according to the above promise. You as well as the Jews do not believe that Messiah has come. You are yet looking for his coming. YAHWEH through Malachi informs us all that a messenger will be sent to prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah:
Mal 3:1
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Sovereign (Messiah), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the YAHWEH of hosts. (KJV)If a messenger must come to prepare the way of the Messiah, and if this Messiah must indeed build a house for YAH, how is it that the Messiah can suddenly come to HIS Temple after the work of the messenger? If you can answer this question, then you will know why a physical Temple made with hands is no longer necessary.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

01-29-2001, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

=snip=
YAHWEH through Malachi informs us all that a messenger will be sent to prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah:
Mal 3:1
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Sovereign (Messiah), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the YAHWEH of hosts. (KJV)If a messenger must come to prepare the way of the Messiah, and if this Messiah must indeed build a house for YAH, how is it that the Messiah can suddenly come to HIS Temple after the work of the messenger? If you can answer this question, then you will know why a physical Temple made with hands is no longer necessary.

Sincerely, Spying
Hello Spying
I am not going to pretend that I have a full understanding of Malachi 3:1, but I will comment on what I do see:
The MESSENGER is preparing the way for YHUH not the messiah. The word that has been translated MY MESSENGER in verse 1 may possibly be Malachi and not MY MESSENGER[/b]. When looking at all of the book of Malachi I see portions of this verse as difficult in regards to its translation.

Malachi 3
1) Behold, I send my MESSENGER and prepare a pathway before ME (YHUH). And suddenly shall come to his temple the ruler you are seeking and MESSENGER, the covenant which delights you. Behold come, says YHUH of hosts.
OR
1) Behold, I send Malachi and prepare a pathway before ME (YHUH)...

2) And who can endure the day of his coming? And who will stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fuller's soap.
3) And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi...

Malachi 4:4-5 (3:22-23)
4 [22]) Remember the Torah of my servant Moses, which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and the judgments.
5 [23]) Behold, I send to you Eliyah, the prophet, before the coming of the great and fearful day of YHUH.

Spying

02-04-2001, 06:48 AM

Hi Sandy,

Yes, Sandy, I desire greatly that you and everyone else listen to the Apostle Paul. This is my testimony concerning him: There has never been save for Messiah himself a greater teacher of Israel than Paul. Most of what I have learned, I have learned from him.

YAHWEH says that HIS doing and HIS thoughts are higher than ours:
Isa 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the YAHWEH.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (KJV)So, the spiritual is for me the conscious activity or doing of YAHWEH. It is higher than my conscious activity or doing. The spiritual is also the conscious thinking of YAHWEH. It is also higher than my conscious thinking. The conscious activity or doing of men is physical, and the conscious thinking of men is physical. Now, there is a relationship between physical and spiritual doing. The former is a reflection of the latter. So, the physical is a representation of the spiritual. The physical makes manifest the spiritual. I hope you are listening here, Bratu. What I am saying is that the physical is actually a "stage" of the spiritual, and physical men are all actors on that stage unwittingly taking part in a high drama.

Now, spirit itself is difficult to approach and define. Spirit is not thought, but spirit knows the thought:
1 Cor 2:10-11
10 But ELOHIM hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of ELOHIM.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of ELOHIM knoweth no man, but the Spirit of ELOHIM. (KJV)So, each of us has a spirit which knows everything about ourselves. When we die, this spirit goes back to YAH. I have heard some say that the spirit leaves the body through the eyes. I have heard others say that the spirit is blue light. I don't know if these things are true. This spirit which leaves, what is it? Whatever it is, it is the stuff of which YAHWEH is made.

I get after the spirit through the words of Messiah Yahushua. Messiah said:
John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (KJV)The Apostle John uses the Greek word, "rhema", which means speech or that which is spoken, to translate what Yahushua actually said in Aramaic or possibly in the Hebrew language. The definite article is used with rhema, and rhema is in the plural. So, we have here a bottom line statement from Messiah that speech is spirit. That is Messiah's definition.

When you think about it, Messiah did have a pattern of thought with respect to speech. The Word of YAH comes into our hearts through the hearing of the ear. We hear physical words through physical hearing. That process is a reflection of what spirit really is. Spirit is everything involved in the ability to hear or listen. We hear spiritually through the preaching of the Gospel of Messiah Yahushua. It comes to all through the physical spoken word, but not all hear the Gospel. What I am talking about here is spiritual hearing. Not all that hear (physically), actually hear the words or speech of life. That hearing is reserved for the chosen. As Messiah often said:
Matt 11:15
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.SPEECH of Messiah. It was lost to this world, and it is again being restored in order that we all might have life. Many heard it in the first century. Many will hear it again.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

02-04-2001, 10:53 AM

Hello Spying
Your wrote:
Yes, Sandy, I desire greatly that you and everyone else listen to the Apostle Paul. This is my testimony concerning him: There has never been save for Messiah himself a greater teacher of Israel than Paul. Most of what I have learned, I have learned from him.Sorry, but I have no desire to listen to Paul. Paul is a double-talker, a Chameleon.

Paul is NOT walking in accordance with the Almighty Creator YHUH when he makes statements like this:
Romans 4:15
For the LAW (Torah) works out wrath; but where there is no LAW (Torah), neither is there transgression.
Let's look at an example of this concept.

We have laws in society which we expect everyone to abide by. These laws work out wrath only to those who break them. The ones that keep them have no problem with the law.

Now if we take away the laws of our society so that no one will be a transgressor what do we end up with?

It amazes me that everyone expects us to abide by our worldly laws, but yet you want us to believe that the LAW (Torah) of YHUH causes wrath. What a contradiction to what it says in the Hebrew Scriptures, such as in Jeremiah: Jeremiah 31:33
...I will put My Law (Torah) in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim and they will be My people.
Another very popular Pauline concept:
Romans 4:13-14 (Paul says)
For the promise was not through Law (Torah) to Abraham, or to his seed, for him to be the heir of the world, but through a rightness of faith.

For if the heirs are of Law (Torah), faith has been made of no effect, and the promise has been nullified.
A serious contradiction considering what it says here in the Hebrew Scriptures:
Genesis 26:3-5
Stay in this land, and I will be with you (Isaac) and bless you, for to you and to your seed I will give all these lands. And I will make rise My oath which I swore to your father Abraham.

...And all the nations of the earth will bless themselves in your seed,

because Abraham listened to My voice
heeded My charge, My commands, My statutes, and My Law (Torah).
So WHY and BECAUSE of what will all the nations be blessed?
BECAUSE Abraham
listened to My voice
heeded My charge My commands My statutes AND My Law (Torah).
That sounds very familiar. Who else was instructed to do these very things so that they would inherit the land?

The many faces of Paul:
Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am indeed a man, a Jew of Tarsus, of Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city.

Acts 22:25
...Paul said to the centurion standing by, Is it right for you to flog a man, even a Roman...

Acts 23:6 (Paul purposely causes discord)
But knowing that the one part consisted of Sadducees, and the other of Pharisees, Paul cried out in the sanhedrin, Men, brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am being judged concerning hope and resurrection of the dead!

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
[list]I become: [list] as a Jew to the Jews
to those under Torah as under Torah
to those without Torah as without Torah
to the weak as weak
to all I have become all things
Paul is a Chameleon.

What is the best way to destroy an organization? Is it not through infiltration, joining them to destroy them from within?

So again, I will say, You want me to listen to Paul? The thirteenth (self proclaimed) apostle, which he does with his usual trickery. 1 Corinthians 15 9) For I am the least of the apostles, who am not sufficienct to be called an apostle... 10) But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace which was toward me was not without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them; yet not I, but the grace of Theo with me...