The Wave Sheaf [Archive] - LO-AMMI DISCUSSION FORUMS

ImAHebrew

01-12-2001, 05:14 PM

Welcome and Shalom Yahnathan,

Thank you for coming here and joining with us as we endeavor to unite in Yahushua.

Your E-mail to me was right on in how one should view the fulfillment of Yahweh's Torah. Yahushua IS the Passover, and therefore He would need to have been offered AT the appointed time, and that is why your reasoning was correct concerning the timeframe you presented (Yahushua dying at the time the Passover was to be slaughtered).

The question concerning the timeframe of the Wave Sheaf is also answered by looking at the Spiritual fulfillment involved WITH Yahushua. There are several different explanations concerning the day of the week that Yahushua was sacrificed on. Traditional "Christianity" feels it was on Friday, other's feel it was on Thursday, but I am of the opinion that His death occurred on Wednesday. Wednesday would have been the 14th of Nissan, and then the 15th would have been the High Day Shabbat (Thursday), making the morrow after that Shabbat fall on Friday the 16th of Nissan. Now, when you look to the Spiritual fulfillment of these events, the wave sheaf is the FIRSTFRUITS, and it must be waved on the morrow AFTER Shabbat. Didn't Paul say that Yahushua IS the Firstfruits of those who have RISEN from the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

When was Yahushua RISEN? When was Yahushua WAVED? If you realize that He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset, then three days and three nights later would be Shabbat at sunset. His resurrection took place right at the end of the weekly Shabbat. Then the morrow (the first day of the week) after this Shabbat, His waving/being presented before the Father would take place. The account of Mary Magdalene encountering Yahushua in the garden shows us that He was planning to be appear (be waved) before the Father some time very soon:

John 20:17 Yahushau saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Elohim, and your Elohim.

His ascending to the Father was THE waving of THE Firstfruits of those who had risen from the dead. His request to Mary, appears to be made, so that His waving would not be defiled OR hindered. But then later that evening He tells Thomas to reach out and touch Him:

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

So something must have taken place between the time of Him meeting Mary, and then later that evening with Thomas. I would propose that it was THE waving of the Firstfruits that took place, and this occurred on the morrow AFTER the weekly Shabbat, NOT the High Shabbat. I hope this does make some sense to you, and that we will agree on it?

Yahnathan

01-12-2001, 06:18 PM

Yes ImAHebrew, we agree. I too feel that messiah died prob on a Wed Abib 14 at 3pm and rose either shortly before sunset or at the moment of sunset(As is the case according to the tradition when the wave sheaf should be harvested). I too agree the sabbath in question in Lev 23:11 is the weekly sabbath. This explains how messiah could have died on passover and stayed 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. This also agrees with the account in Joshua 5:10-11 where it is clear that the wave sheaf was waved on the first day of unleavened bread, which would only be poss if Passover Abib 14 fell on a weekly Sabbath that year. This teaches us that the sabbath itself does not have to fall during the feast but the day the sheaf is waved must fall during the feast of unleavened bread. The Karaites also agree with this assessment of the wave sheaf.

Your Friend in Messiah Yahushua,

Yahnathan

01-13-2001, 06:55 AM

Shabbath Shalom All. ImaHebrew I am very happy to learn that YAH has also called you to help create unity among YAH's people. Messiah said that we are to be Echad(unified) just as the Father and Son are Echad(unified). This will never happen until we stop relying on human reasoning and humble ourselfs and except the fact that only YAH can teach us how he intends his torah to be fulfilled. It is very intersting how neither the Saducees nor the Pharacees could have undertood the proper fulfill ment of Passover and Firstfruits without messiah's example. Whom will we put our trust in the Saducees and Pharacees or in Messiah ? When I speak of unity I am not speaking of an organization created by men. I think it is clear YAH has shown us we are not to unite into one organization but rather to be in unity in doctrine. We being scattered and under no authority of man is a good thing. YAH has shown we will be more effective this way. However we need unity in doctrine. I would like to have open discussion on some doctrine among us that is unscriptural. In the Past we have put too much authority in organizations of men. YAH's people are of no one organization of men but are scattered all over the earth. When will we stop putting faith in men and have faith in YAH ?

With Love in the Service of Yahushua,

ImAHebrew

01-14-2001, 06:29 AM

Shalom Yahnathan,

We have much in agreement. It is very important to have unity. Have you ever considered some of the more unifying circumstances that bring people together. One that I have seen at work is the unity brought about through war. War helps a nation to set aside their internal differences as they join together to defeat their enemy. If it works along physical lines, then it should also work Spiritually.

The war that we need to join together in is the war against sin and deception. Being unified in doctrine and faith will help us all work together in defeating the sin and deception in our lives. You are so right. We need that unity of doctrine, but sometimes there does need to be a difference of opinion so that the Truth can be made manifest to all. Bringing up doctrines that are wrong, and trying to correct someone's thinking about them, is all what this forum is about. So feel free to correct or expose anything you feel is false. Everyone associated with the Tzaddikim has the attitude that we can be wrong, and we want to be corrected when we are. :)

Sandy

01-14-2001, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by ImAHebrew
Welcome and Shalom Yahnathan,

Thank you for coming here and joining with us as we endeavor to unite in Yahushua.

Your E-mail to me was right on in how one should view the fulfillment of Yahweh's Torah. Yahushua IS the Passover, and therefore He would need to have been offered AT the appointed time, and that is why your reasoning was correct concerning the timeframe you presented (Yahushua dying at the time the Passover was to be slaughtered).

The question concerning the timeframe of the Wave Sheaf is also answered by looking at the Spiritual fulfillment involved WITH Yahushua. There are several different explanations concerning the day of the week that Yahushua was sacrificed on. Traditional "Christianity" feels it was on Friday, other's feel it was on Thursday, but I am of the opinion that His death occurred on Wednesday. Wednesday would have been the 14th of Nissan, and then the 15th would have been the High Day Shabbat (Thursday), making the morrow after that Shabbat fall on Friday the 16th of Nissan. Now, when you look to the Spiritual fulfillment of these events, the wave sheaf is the FIRSTFRUITS, and it must be waved on the morrow AFTER Shabbat. Didn't Paul say that Yahushua IS the Firstfruits of those who have RISEN from the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Sandy replies:
Messiah was not the first risen from the dead.
Matthew 27:52-53
52) And the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53) And coming forth out of the tombs after their resurrection they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many.

When was Yahushua RISEN? When was Yahushua WAVED? If you realize that He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset, then three days and three nights later would be Shabbat at sunset. His resurrection took place right at the end of the weekly Shabbat. Then the morrow (the first day of the week) after this Shabbat, His waving/being presented before the Father would take place. The account of Mary Magdalene encountering Yahushua in the garden shows us that He was planning to be appear (be waved) before the Father some time very soon:

John 20:17 Yahushau saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Elohim, and your Elohim.
Sandy replies:
How do you decide if that is the truth. Matthew gives a completely different account (as well as does Mark and Luke).
Matthew 28:1, 6-10
1) But after the Sabbath, at the dawning into the first of the Sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to view the grave.
6) He is not here, for he was raised, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
7) And go quickly and tell his disciples that he was raised from the dead. And, behold, he goes before you into Galilee. You will see him there. Behold, I told you.
8) And going away from the tomb, with fear and great joy they ran to tell his disciple.
9) But as they were going to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized his feet and worshiped him.
10) Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee and they will see me there.

His ascending to the Father was THE waving of THE Firstfruits of those who had risen from the dead. His request to Mary, appears to be made, so that His waving would not be defiled OR hindered. But then later that evening He tells Thomas to reach out and touch Him:

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

So something must have taken place between the time of Him meeting Mary, and then later that evening with Thomas. I would propose that it was THE waving of the Firstfruits that took place, and this occurred on the morrow AFTER the weekly Shabbat, NOT the High Shabbat. I hope this does make some sense to you, and that we will agree on it?

ImAHebrew

01-15-2001, 05:09 AM

Shalom Sandy,

I hope everything is found well with you. You have brought up some interesting rebuttals. If I may quote you:

Sandy replies:
Messiah was not the first risen from the dead.

I can understand how you made that statement considering Matt 27, but do you feel those who were resurrected at that time were given eternal life? I look at those who were resurrected in Matt 27 as I look at Lazarus. Did Lazarus continue on living forever, or did he die again? When I stated that Yahushua is the Firstfruits, I meant the Firstfruits unto Eternal Life. Sorry I did not have that clarified. And if Yahushua is NOT the Firstfruits of those risen from the dead UNTO Eternal Life, how do you answer the following Scriptures:

Acts 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Col 1:18 And he (Messiah) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev 1:5 And from Yahushua Messiah, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Now Sandy, concerning Yahushua's waving before the Father on the morrow after the weekly Shabbat as The Firstfruits, what is your explanation of the events? We feel Matthew's account of the women holding His feet can be explained in light of John's account. I would first like to hear your explanation, and I would also like to hear how Luke's and Mark's version gives a different account as to what took place? You made it appear as if Luke and Mark spoke about this encounter, and that they had a different version of the "holding/not touching." Could you elaborate on how you were thinking?

I am not saying that all of this is easily understood, but if we work together IN the Spirit, we can come together in Truth.

Sandy

01-15-2001, 02:37 PM

Hello Spying
I really hope you are not going to get so upset with me that you will be sorry you invited me to join your forum. I am not attempting to be difficult or to cause trouble, I am sincerely looking for truth. So it is my hope that you as well as others here will not become upset and tired of me.

I will attempt to answer your questions.

You wrote:

And if Yahushua is NOT the Firstfruits of those risen from the dead UNTO Eternal Life, how do you answer the following Scriptures:

Acts 26:23 That Messiah should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Let's look at Acts 26:22 and 23 togetherActs 26
22) Then obtaning help from God, I stand until this day, witnessing both to small and to great, saying nothing else than what both the prophets and Moses said was going to happen;
23) that Messiah was to suffer, that first by a resurrection of the dead, a light he shall proclaim to the people and to the nations.
I can find no verification in the Hebrew Scriptures to this statement as indicated by Paul.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Col 1:18 And he (Messiah) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rev 1:5 And from Yahushua Messiah, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Daniel 12:1-3
1) And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the existence of a nation until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.
2) And many of those sleeping in the earth's dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting loathing.
3) And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righness as the stars forever and ever.

Psalm 58
10) The upright shall rejoice when he sees vengeance; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11) And man shall say, Truly, fruit to the upright; truly there is an Elohim judging in the earth.[/list]
Where in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say or indicate that our sins will be washed away by the blood of the Messiah.

Yahnathan

01-16-2001, 04:36 AM

Sandy surly in your study of the talmid you have come accrose the the discussion of the Rabbis concerning the Yahushua ben David and Yahushua ben Joseph. Here we see the allusion even ageed to by many rabbis that the messiah will take the form of both a suffering servent unto death and a Anointed king. How do you explain it. It is my understanding you coralate these messianic prophecys to Israel itself even though Israel is always refered to in scripture as a bride(female) and the Messiah is refered to as Masculine. The key to understanding the the way in which the parts of Yahushua ben Joseph and Yahushua ben David are played out are found in the prophectic nature of the feasts.
Here we see Yahushua ben Joseph portrayed as the seffering sevent and is pictured by the Passover lamb that is slain its blood covers the sins of Israel and protects them from the Angel of Death. Later in the picture of the feasts after a long pause between the spring and fall festivials Yahushua ben David appears at the last trumpet blast to set up the kingdom of Israel forever on earth. Please concider this possibility.

With Love in the Service of The Salvation of YAHWEH,

Sandy

01-16-2001, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Yahnathan
Sandy surly in your study of the talmid you have come accrose the the discussion of the Rabbis concerning the Yahushua ben David and Yahushua ben Joseph. Here we see the allusion even ageed to by many rabbis that the messiah will take the form of both a suffering servent unto death and a Anointed king. How do you explain it. It is my understanding you coralate these messianic prophecys to Israel itself even though Israel is always refered to in scripture as a bride(female) and the Messiah is refered to as Masculine.
Sandy replies:
Surely you are mistaken. Israel is NOT ALWAYS referred to in Scripture as a bride (female).

Israel as YHUH'S son:
Exodus 4
22) And you shall speak to Pharaoh, So says YHUH, Israel is my son, my firstborn.
23) And I said to you, Send my son away and let him serve me; and you refused to send him. Behold, I am about to kill your son, your firstborn.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and I called my son out of Egypt.

Israel as YHUH'S servant
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, are my servant; Jacob whom I have chosen; the seed of my friend Abraham;

Isaiah 44
1) And now listen, my servant Jacob, and Israel whom I have chosen.
21) Remember these, Jacob and Israel. For you are my servant; I have formed you; you are my servant, Israel; you shall not forget me.

Isaiah 48:20
Go out of Babylon; flee from the chaldeans. Tell this with the voice of rejoicing; let this be heard, let it go out to the end of the earth; say, YHUH has redeemed his servant Jacob.

Jeremiah 30:10
And you, my servant Jacob, do not fear, says YHUH. Do not be terrified, Israel.

Ezekiel 37:25
And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, where your fathers dwelt. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever. And my servant, David (this is speaking of the Messiah) shall be a ruler to them forever.

The key to understanding the the way in which the parts of Yahushua ben Joseph and Yahushua ben David are played out are found in the prophectic nature of the feasts.
Here we see Yahushua ben Joseph portrayed as the seffering sevent and is pictured by the Passover lamb that is slain its blood covers the sins of Israel and protects them from the Angel of Death. Later in the picture of the feasts after a long pause between the spring and fall festivials Yahushua ben David appears at the last trumpet blast to set up the kingdom of Israel forever on earth. Please concider this possibility.

I will address this half in a separate post.

With Love in the Service of The Salvation of YAHWEH,

[/B]

Sandy

01-17-2001, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by ImAHebrew
Shalom Sandy,

I hope everything is found well with you. You have brought up some interesting rebuttals. If I may quote you:

Sandy replies:
Messiah was not the first risen from the dead.

=snip=

Now Sandy, concerning Yahushua's waving before the Father on the morrow after the weekly Shabbat as The Firstfruits, what is your explanation of the events?

Passover has nothing to do with the waving of the sheaf.
The purpose of the Passover is this:
Exodus 4
22) And you shall speak to Pharaoh, So says YHUH, Israel is my son, my firstborn.
23) And I said to you, Send my son away and let him serve me, but you refused to send him. Behold, I am about to kill your son, your firstborn.

Exodus 12
26) And it shall be, when your sons say to you, what is this service to you?
27) Then you shall say, It is the slaughter of the Passover to YHUH, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt, when he struck Egypt and he delivered our houses...

The wave offering:
Leviticus 23
9) And YHUH spoke to Moses saying,
10) Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving to you, and have reaped its harvest, and have brought in the sheaf, the beginning of your harvest, to the priest,
11) Then he shall wave the sheaf before YHUH for your acceptance; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12) And you shall prepare a lamb in the day you wave the sheaf, a perfect one, a son of a year, for a burnt offering to YHUH.

Yahshua was crucified at Passover. If he were to be a part of the wave offering he would have had to be killed the day after the sabbath as indicated in verse 12.

The Passover sacrifice was eaten and any remaining was burned (Exodus 12:9-10). No part of it is ever waved or brought to the priest.

We feel Matthew's account of the women holding His feet can be explained in light of John's account. I would first like to hear your explanation, and I would also like to hear how Luke's and Mark's version gives a different account as to what took place? You made it appear as if Luke and Mark spoke about this encounter, and that they had a different version of the "holding/not touching." Could you elaborate on how you were thinking?

I was stating that each account was different.

Matthew 28:1, 6-10
1) But after the Sabbath, at the dawning into the first of the Sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to view the grave.
6) He is not here, for he was raised, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
7) And go quickly and tell his disciples that he was raised from the dead. And, behold, he goes before you into Galilee. You will see him there. Behold, I told you.
8) And going away from the tomb, with fear and great joy they ran to tell his disciple.
9) But as they were going to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized his feet and worshiped him.
10) Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee and they will see me there.

Mark 16
1) And the Sabbath passing, Mary the Magalene and Mary of James and Salome bought spices that coming they might anoint him
2) And very early at the rising of the sun on the first Sabbaths they came upon the tomb,
6) ...He was raised; he is not here...
7) But go, say to the disciples and to Peter, He goes before you into Galilee. You will see him there, even as he told you.
8) And going out quickly, they fled from the tomb...and they told no one...
9) And rising early in the first of the Sabbaths, he appeared first to Mary the Magdalene...
10) She having gone reported to those having been with him, who were mourning and weeping.
11) And those hearing that he lives and was seen by her, they did not believe.

Luke 24
1) And indeed they rested on the Sabbath according to the command, but on the first of the Sabbaths dawn deeping, they came on the tomb carrying spices which they prepared...
6) He is not here; he was raised...
9) And returning from the tomb, they reported all these things to the eleven...
10) And they were Mary the Magdalene, Joanna and Mary of James...who told these things to the apostles.
11) And their words seemed like foolishness to them and they did not believe them.
13) And, behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village being sixty furlongs distance from Jerusalem...
15) And it happened, as they talked and reasoned, coming near Jesus himself traveled with them,
16) But their eyes were held so as not to recognise him.

John 19
1) But on the first of the Sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene comes at dawn, darkness yet being on the tomb, and sees the stone had been removed from the tomb.
2) Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciples...
4) And the two ran together...
10) then the disciples went away again to themselves.
11) But Mary stood outside at the tomb, weeping...
14) ...she turned around and saw Jesus standing and did not know that it was Jesus.
16) Jesus said to her, Mary!...
17) Jesus said to her, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my father, but go to my brothers...
18) Mary the Magdalene came bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord...

None of the accounts agree. In Matthew they seize his feet and worship him. In John he says "do not touch me". Mark and Luke have neither.

I am not saying that all of this is easily understood, but if we work together IN the Spirit, we can come together in Truth.

ImAHebrew

01-18-2001, 08:31 AM

Shalom Sandy,

I hope that you are doing just fine. My days are still very hectic.

It appears your view of Passover and Firstfruits is strictly from a "historical" perspective. When you look at Passover, you see a historical event that transpired in the past, which found it's fulfillment when Yahweh deliver Moses and the Children of Israel out of Egypt, don't you? You should also look at Firstfruits the same way, for it was WHEN they ENTERED into the land that they could then harvest the firstfruits and wave them. What you do today is just a reminder or memorial of those events that were fulfilled way back when. Now, the Tzaddikim look at those events that transpired with physical Israel in a much different fashion. We look at what happened to physical Israel as just a "picture" or "shadow" of a much grandeur fulfillment of "leaving Egypt" and "waving the Firstfruits."

King David prayed to Yahweh asking that his "eyes" be "opened" so that he could behold the wondrous things veiled within the Torah:

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah.
The whole Torah has "wondrous things" veiled within it. Do you believe that we should ONLY view the events and instructions of the Torah along "physical" lines? Haven't you tried to understand what the "figure" or "type" of what the Torah was truly pointing to?

Just consider the "land" that was promised to the children of Israel. Is the inheritance of Yahweh's people just a strip of real-estate in the Mediterranean? No. That Land is symbolic of an eternal inheritance, which is Eternal Life itself. This is what Yahweh is accomplishing in a grandeur fashion. His purpose is to deliver mankind (both Jew and Gentile) out of their sin (Egypt). In the process of delivering us OUT of sin, He has allowed us to wander a little in the wilderness of this physical life. His goal is to bring us INTO His Land, where He resides, and that is Life everlasting. Everlasting life IS the abode of Yahweh, in it you will find the DOING of His judgments and His commands. It is not like Egypt, for in Egypt there is nothing but hard bondage, a slavery to sin. By the mighty Hand of Yahweh, He is delivering His people OUT of sin, and bringing them to a Land that is flowing with milk and honey. This land is also watered by rain from HEAVEN itself. Consider the following verses:

Deu 11:10 "For the land, into which you are entering to possess it, is not like the land of Egypt from which you came, where you used to sow your seed and water it with your foot like a vegetable garden.
11 "But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven,
12 a land for which Yahweh your Elohim cares; the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year.
That rain from Heaven itself is the rain of Yahweh's Word falling on us with it's Spiritual meaning or understanding. But it takes, as King David said, for one's eyes to be opened to see it.

Ezekiel gives us some insight into WHEN Yahweh's people will truly INHERIT the promised land:

Ezek 37:12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says Yahweh, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you will know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14 "And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken and done it," declares Yahweh.'"
Coming forth OUT of the GRAVE is WHEN Yahweh brings His people INTO the LAND. This is WHEN the waving of the Firstfruits MUST occur according to the "Spiritual" fulfillment of the Torah. Yahushua was the FIRST to rise from the grave UNTO Eternal Life. He has entered the Land, and He has been waved AS the One who was first harvested from Mankind. Sandy, does this make any since to you at all?

Sandy

01-18-2001, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by ImAHebrew
Shalom Sandy,

I hope that you are doing just fine. My days are still very hectic.

It appears your view of Passover and Firstfruits is strictly from a "historical" perspective. When you look at Passover, you see a historical event that transpired in the past, which found it's fulfillment when Yahweh deliver Moses and the Children of Israel out of Egypt, don't you? You should also look at Firstfruits the same way, for it was WHEN they ENTERED into the land that they could then harvest the firstfruits and wave them. What you do today is just a reminder or memorial of those events that were fulfilled way back when. Now, the Tzaddikim look at those events that transpired with physical Israel in a much different fashion. We look at what happened to physical Israel as just a "picture" or "shadow" of a much grandeur fulfillment of "leaving Egypt" and "waving the Firstfruits."

King David prayed to Yahweh asking that his "eyes" be "opened" so that he could behold the wondrous things veiled within the Torah:

Psalm 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy Torah.
The whole Torah has "wondrous things" veiled within it. Do you believe that we should ONLY view the events and instructions of the Torah along "physical" lines? Haven't you tried to understand what the "figure" or "type" of what the Torah was truly pointing to?

Just consider the "land" that was promised to the children of Israel. Is the inheritance of Yahweh's people just a strip of real-estate in the Mediterranean? No. That Land is symbolic of an eternal inheritance, which is Eternal Life itself. This is what Yahweh is accomplishing in a grandeur fashion. His purpose is to deliver mankind (both Jew and Gentile) out of their sin (Egypt). In the process of delivering us OUT of sin, He has allowed us to wander a little in the wilderness of this physical life. His goal is to bring us INTO His Land, where He resides, and that is Life everlasting. Everlasting life IS the abode of Yahweh, in it you will find the DOING of His judgments and His commands. It is not like Egypt, for in Egypt there is nothing but hard bondage, a slavery to sin. By the mighty Hand of Yahweh, He is delivering His people OUT of sin, and bringing them to a Land that is flowing with milk and honey. This land is also watered by rain from HEAVEN itself. Consider the following verses:

Deu 11:10 "For the land, into which you are entering to possess it, is not like the land of Egypt from which you came, where you used to sow your seed and water it with your foot like a vegetable garden.
11 "But the land into which you are about to cross to possess it, a land of hills and valleys, drinks water from the rain of heaven,
12 a land for which Yahweh your Elohim cares; the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim are always on it, from the beginning even to the end of the year.
That rain from Heaven itself is the rain of Yahweh's Word falling on us with it's Spiritual meaning or understanding. But it takes, as King David said, for one's eyes to be opened to see it.

Ezekiel gives us some insight into WHEN Yahweh's people will truly INHERIT the promised land:

Ezek 37:12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says Yahweh, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you will know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14 "And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken and done it," declares Yahweh.'"
Coming forth OUT of the GRAVE is WHEN Yahweh brings His people INTO the LAND. This is WHEN the waving of the Firstfruits MUST occur according to the "Spiritual" fulfillment of the Torah. Yahushua was the FIRST to rise from the grave UNTO Eternal Life. He has entered the Land, and He has been waved AS the One who was first harvested from Mankind. Sandy, does this make any since to you at all?

Each of these appointed feasts was to be keep as never-ending statutes, so I hardly think that I believe as you have implied
It appears your view of Passover and Firstfruits is strictly from a "historical" perspective.
I stand by what I have already presented, which I believe is self explanatory.

The Passover:
Exodus 4
22) And you shall speak to Pharaoh, So says YHUH, Israel is my son, my firstborn.
23) And I said to you, Send my son away and let him serve me, but you refused to send him. Behold, I am about to kill your son, your firstborn.

Exodus 12
26) And it shall be, when your sons say to you, what is this service to you?
27) Then you shall say, It is the slaughter of the Passover to YHUH, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt, when he struck Egypt and he delivered our houses...

The wave offering:
Leviticus 23
9) And YHUH spoke to Moses saying,
10) Speak to the sons of Israel, and you shall say to them, When you come into the land which I am giving to you, and have reaped its harvest, and have brought in the sheaf, the beginning of your harvest, to the priest,
11) Then he shall wave the sheaf before YHUH for your acceptance; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12) And you shall prepare a lamb in the day you wave the sheaf, a perfect one, a son of a year, for a burnt offering to YHUH.

Yahshua was crucified at Passover. If he were to be a part of the wave offering he would have had to be killed the day after the sabbath as indicated in verse 12.

The Passover sacrifice was eaten and any remaining was burned (Exodus 12:9-10). No part of it is ever waved or brought to the priest.

I feel that there is way too much spiritualizing of the Scriptures and not enough of taking them at face value.

ImAHebrew

01-19-2001, 01:16 PM

Shalom Sandy,

Thanks for your response. You're right, there is quite a bit of Spiritualizing by us, and hopefully it's something that you may want to look at differently someday.

What's the alternative? Taking everything at face value would present some problems for us. Just consider the Passover? Do you travel to Jerusalem every spring and select a lamb as your Passover, and then slaughter it on the 14th of Abib? According to the face value of the Torah, you would have no other choice, that is unless you somehow try to "spiritualize" away the clear command of Yahweh. Let me present to you the "face value."

1. Every family was to select a lamb and kill it themselves. They could share with another family if their family was too small:

Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
2. It was to be a "forever" requirement for all of the generations to come:

Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to Yahweh throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.3. The Passover was to be offered in the PLACE that Yahweh chose to place His Name:

Deuteronomy 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim, of the flock and the herd, in the place which Yahweh shall choose to place his name there.
4. Now, just where IS the place that Yahweh has chosen to place His Name?

1 Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
So let's recap here. Each family (or several familles together) are required to set aside a lamb on the 10th of Abib, and they are to then slaughter that lamb themselves at the place that Yahweh chooses to place His Name (which NOW is the city of Jerusalem) on the 14th of Abib. It is a perpetual statute for all of the generations to come. In fact, if one fails to offer Yahweh's offering at it's appointed time, that person must be cut off:

Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of Yahweh in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.
So Sandy, if we look at all of these requirements strictly at face value, then there are a whole bunch of sinners bearing their sin. Do you take the requirements of the Passover at face value, or do you spiritualize them away? And take special notice of this face value--there was no temple required nor a priesthood in the offering of the Passover at it's appointed time. In fact, there wasn't even an altar.

I would sure appreciate if you could give me some of your thoughts concerning these things.

Sandy

01-19-2001, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by ImAHebrew
Shalom Sandy,

Thanks for your response. You're right, there is quite a bit of Spiritualizing by us, and hopefully it's something that you may want to look at differently someday.

No, that is not something that I want to look into. The excessive spiritualizing of everything is what I have worked to overcome. That is exactly what Christianity does. If you don't want to face or accept the truth of something just spiritualize it away.

What's the alternative? Taking everything at face value would present some problems for us. Just consider the Passover? Do you travel to Jerusalem every spring and select a lamb as your Passover, and then slaughter it on the 14th of Abib? According to the face value of the Torah, you would have no other choice, that is unless you somehow try to "spiritualize" away the clear command of Yahweh. Let me present to you the "face value."

1. Every family was to select a lamb and kill it themselves. They could share with another family if their family was too small:

Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
2. It was to be a "forever" requirement for all of the generations to come:

Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to Yahweh throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.3. The Passover was to be offered in the PLACE that Yahweh chose to place His Name:

Deuteronomy 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim, of the flock and the herd, in the place which Yahweh shall choose to place his name there.
4. Now, just where IS the place that Yahweh has chosen to place His Name?

1 Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
So let's recap here. Each family (or several familles together) are required to set aside a lamb on the 10th of Abib, and they are to then slaughter that lamb themselves at the place that Yahweh chooses to place His Name (which NOW is the city of Jerusalem) on the 14th of Abib. It is a perpetual statute for all of the generations to come. In fact, if one fails to offer Yahweh's offering at it's appointed time, that person must be cut off:

Numbers 9:13 But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of Yahweh in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.

Do you honestly believe the Jerusalem of today is a place in which YHUH chooses to put his name? The very city that forbids anyone to even speak his name. I don't think so. The Scriptures tell us that a time will come in which Jerusalem will again be the place of YHUH, but it certainly is not in this day and at this time.
Jeremiah 26
5)...but you have not listened
6) so I will make this house (the House of YHUH) like Shiloh and will make this city a curse (Jerusalem) to all the nations of the earth.

Also, do you believe that as long as Israel is dispersed from one end of the earth to the other, among all their enemies, they are in a postion to keep the Feasts according to the directions given in the Scriptures?

So Sandy, if we look at all of these requirements strictly at face value, then there are a whole bunch of sinners bearing their sin. Do you take the requirements of the Passover at face value, or do you spiritualize them away? And take special notice of this face value--there was no temple required nor a priesthood in the offering of the Passover at it's appointed time. In fact, there wasn't even an altar.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The Passover has nothing to do with the priesthood, Temple or any altar. Also, just as you stated, specific instructions were given concerning it. BUT, where are the instructions from YHUH to Israel saying, While you are dispersed among the nations, your enemies, and find that you are unable to keep the Passover as instructed you can spiritualize it. Just crucify a Messiah and he will take the place of the Passover and all the sin offerings. Then write about it in a book and call it the New Testament. It will take precidence over the Torah because it is spiritual. For Israel is spiritual while living among her enemies.

Actually he said, Exodus 12:25 And it shall be, when you come into the land which YHUH shall give to you, as he has spoken, you shall observe this service (the Passover).
Is the nation of Israel in the land as promised by YHUH at this time?


I would sure appreciate if you could give me some of your thoughts concerning these things. [/B]

ImAHebrew

01-31-2001, 07:05 AM

Shalom Sandy,

Sorry for the delayed response, I've been having some horrendous training and work days. I've also been thinking a lot about your objections for doing what the Torah requires of you. Basically, it seems you feel that the Torah's requirements concerning the "forever" demands of the Passover, are null and void as long as you can see Jerusalem and Israel having enemies within. I'm not certain that would be a proper attitude on your part. First of all, Yahweh has allowed Israel to become a nation again, and every Jew that truly desires to return and OBEY, has that ability with Yahweh's help. Didn't Yahweh say:
Deu 30:11 For this commandment (everything that is written in the book of the Torah) which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it"?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, "Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love Yahweh thy Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and Yahweh thy Elohim shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love Yahweh thy Elohim, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which Yahweh sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.Sandy, DOING what Yahweh requires with respect to the Passover is not impossible. It just takes a desire in your heart, and Yahweh will help in your doing of it. And your objection against the place that Yahweh has choosen to place His name, is just that, only an objection. Didn't Yahweh allow Israel's enemies to dwell in the land as they were taking possession of it:
Deu 7:17 If thou shalt say in thine heart, "These nations are more than I; how can I dispossess them?
18 Thou shalt not be afraid of them: but shalt well remember what Yahweh thy Elohim did unto Pharaoh, and unto all Egypt;
19 The great temptations which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the stretched out arm, whereby Yahweh thy Elohim brought thee out: so shall Yahweh thy Elohim do unto all the people of whom thou art afraid.
20 Moreover Yahweh thy Elohim will send the hornet among them, until they that are left, and hide themselves from thee, be destroyed.
21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for Yahweh thy Elohim is among you, a mighty El and terrible.
22 And Yahweh thy Elohim will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.If Yahweh allowed Israel's enemies to remain in the land back then, why wouldn't He also do it now? So, your viewing of Jerusalem as a place that is cursed and not chosen by Yahweh to place His name there, is just an excuse on your part to not do what He has said. Haven't you read what King Solomon had to say about Jerusalem, and the people who would return to it:
1 Kings 8:44 If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray unto Yahweh toward the city (Jerusalem) which thou hast chosen, and toward the house that I have built for thy name: 45 Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.
46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city (Jerusalem) which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause.Yahweh wants His people to return unto Him with their whole heart, and when they do this, He will be at the place He has chosen (Jerusalem). You seem to think that Jerusalem has to be perfectly inhabited before Yahweh will again choose it as the place for His name, and that's just not the case.

Yahweh has allowed for your circumstance. He has written in His Torah that IF you live far from the place that He has chosen to place His name, you can use money to travel and then buy whatever is needed when you get to that place:
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before Yahweh thy Elohim, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear Yahweh thy Elohim always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which Yahweh thy Elohim shall choose to set his name there, when Yahweh thy Elohim hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which Yahweh thy Elohim shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before Yahweh thy Elohim, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.So Sandy, you are in a bit of a pickle. You have no excuse. Every year at Passover, you should be packing your bags and flying to Jerusalem to keep the command of Yahweh.

Sandy

01-31-2001, 08:56 AM

So Sandy, you are in a bit of a pickle. You have no excuse. Every year at Passover, you should be packing your bags and flying to Jerusalem to keep the command of Yahweh.
__________________
Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrewHello ImAHebrew
Is that what you do every year at Passover? Do you pack your bags and fly to Jerusalem to keep the command of YHUH?

Sandy

01-31-2001, 03:04 PM

Dear ImAHebrew
Where in Jerusalem do you find YHUH's name?
If those in Jerusalem who are called Jews are those gathered by YHUH and have the Torah written on their heart, why do they reject his name? If they have the Torah written on their hearts why are they (or any of us) not in agreement as to exactly what the Torah says? If the Torah is written on their heart why do they need the Talmud, Mishna, etc.?
Isaiah 1
11) What do I have to do with your abundant slaughtering, says YHUH. I am full of burnt offerings of rams and fat from fattened cattle; and the blood of bulls and lambs and he-goats does not delight me.
12) When you come to appear before Me, who treading my courts has required this from your hand?
13) Do not continue bringing sacrifices of destruction, it is disgusting incense to me. I can not endure the new moon and sabbath, going to meeting, and evil assembly.
14) My soul hates your new moons and your appointed feasts. They are a burden upon me. I am tired of bearing them.
16) Wash yourselves, purify yourselves. Put away the evil of your doings from my sight; stop doing evil.
17) Learn to do good; seek justice; reprove the oppressor; judge the orphan; strive for the widow.

Isaiah 66
1) So says YHUH: "Heaven is My throne and earth the footstool for my feet. Where then is the house that you build for Me? And where then is the place of My rest?
2) And all these things my hand has made, and all these things exist, Says YHUH. But to this one will I look: to the afflicted and contrite spirit and trembling at my word.
3) He slaughtering the bull is as one striking a man. He sacrificing the lamb is as one breaking a dog's neck. He offering a donation is as one offering swine's blood. He marking incense is as if blessing evil. Yes, they have chosen their way and they delight in their abominations.

Jeremiah 7
22) But I did not speak with your forefathers, and did not command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about the matters of burnt offerings or sacrifices.
23) But this is what I commanded them, saying, "Hear My voice, and I will be Elohim to you and you shall be My people; and walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it may be well with you.
24) But they did not listen or incline their ear, but walked according to the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.
31) They have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command nor did it come into my heart.

Amos 5
21) I hate, I despise your feast days; and I will not delight in your solemn assemblies.
22) Though you offer me burnt offerings and your food offerings, I will not be pleased; nor will I regard the peace offerings of your fat animals.
23) Take the noise of your songs away from me; and I will not hear the melody of your instruments.
24) But let justice roll down like waters and rightness like an ever-flowing stream.

Micah 6
6) With what shall I come before YHUH, And bow myself before Elohy Most High?
Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves, sons of a year?
7) Will YHUH be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8) He has declared to you, adam, what is good;
And what does YHUH ask of you, but to do justice and loving kindness, and walk humbly with your Elohy.

ImAHebrew

02-26-2001, 03:32 PM

Shalom Sandy,

It’s been a while since I have written on the forum, and I should have responded to you sooner, but I was watching as you and Spying discussed some interesting topics, and I refrained from posting. I hope you do not mind. You have a lot of energy and I appreciate your zeal, I just wish it could turn toward the direction of the Spiritual. Your reluctance in looking at the Spiritual is certainly understandable, based upon the voiding and twisting of Yahweh’s Torah by “Christianity.” However, I would like to ask that you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. From our perspective, traditional “Christianity” is as far off basis as was traditional Judaism some 2000 years ago. Even up to our time, traditional Judaism is still looking at Yahweh’s word with blinders on, but at least they do give Yahweh’s Torah some validation, thereby allowing them to come into a fuller understanding of the Spiritual side of Yahweh’s word. With all that being said, let us continue with our conversation.

To recap, this tread started with questions concerning the wave sheaf and firstfruits, and you objected because of how we Spiritualized the fulfillment of them. You wanted to look at Yahweh’s Torah with “face value.” So, I proceeded to do that with you, and pointed out your reluctance to take Yahweh’s word at “face value.” You did not want to take it at “face value,” even when I clearly showed it was something that you should be doing. In fact, you even pointed out the following to me:
Each of these appointed feasts was to be keep as never-ending statutes, so I hardly think that I believe as you have implied. So we agree that the keeping of Passover and the waving of Firstfruits was/is required throughout the generations of Israel. Then you throw in a new wrinkle, the only way that you would be required to keep these commanded Holy Days would be if Yahweh FIRST gathers His people and re-establishes His Name in Jerusalem. To me, that is just a cop-out on your part, it’s sort of like, “I’m not going to do it until either you do it for me, or you make me do it,” attitude. Look back at when Yahweh gathered His people from the exile in Babylon. They saw their plight, they saw that Jerusalem was in distress, and their desire was to repent and return to the city that Yahweh had chosen to place His Name. Here is Nehemiah’s prayer:
Neh 1:5 And said, I beseech thee, O Yahweh Elohim of heaven, the great and terrible Elohim, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:
6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.
7 We have dealt very corruptly against thee, and have not kept the commandments, nor the statutes, nor the judgments, which thou commandedst thy servant Moses.
8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:
9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
10 Now these are thy servants and thy people, whom thou hast redeemed by thy great power, and by thy strong hand.
11 O Yahweh, I beseech thee, let now thine ear be attentive to the prayer of thy servant, and to the prayer of thy servants, who desire to fear thy name: and prosper, I pray thee, thy servant this day, and grant him mercy in the sight of this man. For I was the king's cupbearer.Notice that Nehemiah reminds Yahweh of the word commanded through Moshe. This word was that IF Yahweh’s people would turn unto Him and KEEP His commandments, TO DO THEM, THEN Yahweh would gather His people and BRING them to the place that He has chosen to place His Name. Sandy, you try to make it appear that Yahweh will FIRST gather His people and THEN He will turn them to keep His commandments and DO THEM. It appears to me that you have it a little backwards, that is, IF you want to take Yahweh’s word at “face value.”

We, on the other hand, take Yahweh’s Word from a much deeper and Spiritual level of understanding. The “Jerusalem” that we are “gathered” to, the Spiritual City that Yahweh has chosen to place His Name at, is the Spiritual City of Truth:
Zec 8:3 Thus saith Yahweh; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of Yahweh of hosts the holy mountain.
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their Elohim, in truth and in righteousness.
Yahweh is an Elohim of Truth (Deu 32:4, Psa 31:5, Isa 65:16, ect.), so it just stands to reason that He would want His permanent dwelling place to be a “City of Truth.” It is the Tzaddikim’s position that the Eternal dwelling place of Yahweh will be WITH a people of Truth, and that the gathering of those people will not be on a strip of land in physical Palestine, but will be in a heavenly or Spiritual Palestine. And the One gathering will have the Spirit of Elohim upon Him, and it won’t be with “physical sight or hearing” that He gathers His people with, rather it will be with “Spiritual sight and hearing,”:
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of Yahweh shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of Yahweh: and he shall not judge after the sight (physical) of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing (physical) of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.See Sandy, we are presently gathered at the place that Yahweh has chosen to place His Name, that place is The Truth, and we come before Him as He has commanded us, doing everything that is required of us. And if we do still have need to perform something, we don’t try to make lame excuses saying that He hasn’t placed His name anywhere, instead, we delve into the Word of Truth, and try to find out how it can be performed. So, shouldn't that be the attitude of all those who seek to dwell in the Truth, the City of Jerusalem?

Sandy

02-28-2001, 07:54 AM

Hello ImAHebrew
I do not deny that there are things that are spiritual, but I do not believe that the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is spiritual. The Scriptures repeatedly say that the sons of Israel will be gathered and returned to the land of their forefathers.

Ezekiel 37
21) ...Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.
22) And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall no longer be two nations and they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
23) and they will no longer be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, not with with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, there where they have sinned; and I will cleanse them. And they shall be to me for a people and I will be to them for Elohim.
24) And my servant David will be king over them. And there shall be one shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in my judgments and keep my statutes and do them.
25) And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, there where your forefathers dwelt on it, they and their sons and the sons of their sons, continually. And my servant David shall be a ruler to them continually.
26) And I will cut a Covenant of peace with them; it shall be a continual Covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them. And I will put my sanctuary in their midst continually.
27) And my tabernacle shall be with them. And I will be their Elohim and they will be my people.
28) And the nations shall know that I, YHUH sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in their midst continually.

ImAHebrew

02-28-2001, 08:49 AM

Shalom Sandy,

Your belief concerning Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and the sons of Israel gathering back into the physical land of Canaan begs the question of how long will they dwell in the land after they are gathered?

You know my belief is that the Land is symbolic of Eternal Life. So, when Yahweh promises His People that they will be gathered INTO the Land, and inherit the Land, it is just His Spiritual Way of telling us that we will come INTO Eternal Life with Him. Obviously, IF the Land represents Eternal Life, then there is no question as to how LONG we will dwell in the Land. But IF the land represents a strip of real estate in Palestine, could you please tell me how long you think Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and the physical sons of Israel will be dwelling there?

Sandy

02-28-2001, 11:50 AM

First of all the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) covers a lot more territory than the strip of land now known as Palestine (see Genesis 15:18-20).

And as I said: The Scriptures repeatedly state that the sons of Israel will be gathered and returned to the land of their forefathers.

If the land is merely spiritual the Scriptures would not tell us that the sons of Israel will be RETURNED to the land of their forefathers, the very same land where their forefathers dwelt.

The Scriptures say over and over again that they will be brought back to the land of their forefathers.

Ezekiel 37
25) And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, there where your forefathers dwelt on it, they and their sons and the sons of their sons, continually. And my servant David shall be a ruler to them continually.
26) And I will cut a Covenant of peace with them; it shall be a continual Covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them. And I will put my sanctuary in their midst continually.
27) And my tabernacle shall be with them. And I will be their Elohim and they will be my people.
28) And the nations shall know that I, YHUH sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in their midst continually.

Where does it say they are going to dwell?
How long does it say they will dwell there?
Who does it say is going know that YHUH has sanctified Israel when he is in their midst, when they are RETURNED AND LIVING ON their land.
How long does it say YHUH'S sanctuary will be in their midst?

ImAHebrew

03-01-2001, 05:49 AM

Shalom Sandy,

I hope you are in good spirit. The subject we are discussing is very important, and I recognize the difficulty you have in accepting how the Land is symbolic of Eternal Life. In your last post you say this:
If the land is merely spiritual the Scriptures would not tell us that the sons of Israel will be RETURNED to the land of their forefathers, the very same land where their forefathers dwelt.We need to look at how the forefathers dwelt in the land a little closer. Have you ever wondered WHY Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just strangers and sojourners in the land? Now, they were promised they would possess the land, but the only land they were given as a possession was their burial site. Don’t you find that interesting?

Here is what Abraham said about himself and what he ended up possessing:
Gen 23:3 And Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spake unto the sons of Heth, saying,
4 I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.In this next Scripture Yahweh tells Isaac to sojourn in the land that he will eventually possess:
Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;Then Isaac blesses Jacob and also tells him that he is a STRANGER in the land and that he would eventually inherit the land:
Gen 28:4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which Elohim gave unto Abraham.The forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) all died without possessing the land. The only land they ended up possessing was where their dead bodies laid, which was in a cave in a field bought by Abraham:
Gen 49:29 And he charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered unto my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite,
30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace.
31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.
32 The purchase of the field and of the cave that is therein was from the children of Heth.
33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.What you need to recognize here Sandy, is that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just strangers and sojourners in the Land. They did not establish a permanent possession of the Land…they died. That should give you a big hint as to what Yahweh is telling us. If the Land is symbolic of Eternal Life, the sojourning of the forefathers in the Land, is a picture of how Elohim has given us a temporary residence in His eternal existence. Yahweh breathe the breath of life into the dust of the earth, and man became a living soul. Mankind IS sojourning, or is as a stranger in Yahweh’s Eternal Life. The breath of life did not permanently remain in the dust of the earth. Man returned to the dust, and the breath of life returned to Yahweh. So it ends up that mankind possesses the grave, and has to wait there until the promise of inheriting the Land is fulfilled. And Yahweh has chosen for Himself a peculiar people that is the First from among mankind to dwell in the Land of Eternal Life, of which Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all of the blessed of Yahweh receive. When is the inheritance fulfilled? It surely wasn’t when physical Israel crossed the physical Jordan River. Crossing the Jordan River is a picture or is symbolic of crossing from death into life. The children of Israel crossed that physical river, and they took possession of the physical land, but Yahweh promised that the Land would be possessed forever:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Ex 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.Physical Israel FAILED to possess the physical land forever, but that will not be the case with Spiritual Israel. Why? Because Yahweh also said that the Land belonged to Him---He is the possessor of Eternal Life:
Lev 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.Can you start to see it Sandy? Yahweh is the forefather of us all, and He has allowed us to sojourn in His Land of Eternal Life (the Promised Land). He has given us a short breath of existence in His Land, and the whole picture and story of our physical forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the children of Israel) is just an image or shadow of what He is doing for mankind. Ultimately, the gathering and final inheriting of the Land is fulfilled when Yahweh brings us forth out of the grave to receive the Land of Eternal Life:
Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith Yahweh Elohim; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:(Their own eternal existence) then shall ye know that I Yahweh have spoken it, and performed it, saith Yahweh.Just consider these things Sandy, someday they may make some sense to you. My hope is that no one will be able to take away the Land that I do own---Eternal Life.

Sandy

03-01-2001, 08:22 PM

Jeremiah 32
37) Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands...and I will AGAIN bring them to THIS PLACE and will make them live in safety.
41) And I will rejoice over them, to do good to them. And I will truly plant them in THIS LAND with all my heart and with all my soul.
42) ...As I have brought all the great evil on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I spoke to them.
The whole thing has to do with the blessings and the curses. When Israel as a nation turned away from YHUH they were driven out of the land promised to them, and they were dispersed and spread to the far corners of the earth.

But YHUH says:
Jeremiah 32
37) Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands...and I will AGAIN bring them to THIS PLACE and will make them live in safety.
I am sorry to hear that you are yet another group who see themselves as "spiritual Israel", thinking to replace natural Israel.

Sandy

03-01-2001, 09:06 PM

ImAHebrew wrote:
Ultimately, the gathering and final inheriting of the Land is fulfilled when Yahweh brings us forth out of the grave to receive the Land of Eternal Life:

Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith Yahweh Elohim; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:(Their own eternal existence) then shall ye know that I Yahweh have spoken it, and performed it, saith Yahweh.
You quoted Ezekiel 37:12 as proof to your statement, but Ezekiel 37:11 very clearly and specifically says: these bones are all the house of Israel

I personally believe "their graves" represent their situation of being cast out of the land and having to dwell among the nations.

Ezekiel 37
21)...I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.
25) And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, where your fathers dwelt in it. And they shall dwell in it, they and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever...

You said above:
Ultimately, the gathering and final inheriting of the Land is fulfilled when Yahweh brings us forth out of the grave to receive the Land of Eternal Life:
How do you justify your statement on the face of what it says in Verse 25 above?

ImAHebrew

03-04-2001, 09:00 AM

Shalom Sandy,

You do stand by your guns, and it will take some effort to turn your thinking, but Yahweh is strong. He gave DeAnna some very good words for you on the “Eye of the Storm” Thread, and they apply very well to what we are discussing here. She brought to your attention that “Canaan” means “lowland,” and the Hebrew root from which Canaan comes (Strong’s 3665) means to be humble, brought low. Examine closely what Yahweh tells the children of Israel concerning their leaving of Egypt (sin), and the fact that they would no longer be slaves (to sin), and that they would then walk uprightly:
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your Elohim, and ye shall be my people.
13 I am Yahweh your Elohim, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright…Then notice how Yahweh tells them in the verses that follow that they would reap severe consequences for not following Him. Then Yahweh tells them IF they would HUMBLE themselves, confessing their iniquity, He would remember His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and remember the Land:
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.Humbling oneself is a way in which Yahweh will allow you to dwell with Him. Yahweh dwells (inhabiteth) in Eternal Life (eternity), and those who are contrite and humble in spirit, will dwell with Him, in eternity:
Isa 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, WITH HIM also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.Can’t you see it Sandy? To possess the Land (Eternal Life), one has to dwell in humility (Canaan). And you don’t have to be a physical descendent of Israel:
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the STRANGER, that join themselves to Yahweh, to serve him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Yahweh Elohim which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.Yahweh is going to gather ALL those who are meek and humble in spirit, and establish them in the Land. IF, this gathering is just for physical Israel, to a physical land, then we have to throw out all kinds of Scriptures, and various requirements of the Torah. Have you even considered the dividing of the Land amongst the tribes?

Sandy

03-04-2001, 04:23 PM

Hello ImAHebrew
You wrote:


Ultimately, the gathering and final inheriting of the Land is fulfilled when Yahweh brings us forth out of the grave to receive the Land of Eternal Life:

If the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants as a possession is not real land, but instead the land of Eternal Life and spiritual:
Why are they still having children? (Ezekiel 37:25)

Ezekiel 37
12) ...I will open your (natural Israel's) graves and cause you (natural Israel) to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
14) And shall put my spirit in you (Natural Israel) and you (natural Israel) shall live, and I shall place you (natural Israel) in your own land
21) I will take the children of Israel (natural Israel) from among the nations, there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.
25) And they (natural Israel) shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt. And they (natural Israel) shall dwell on it, they (natural Israel) and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever...

You wrote:
Yahweh is going to gather ALL those who are meek and humble in spirit, and establish them in the Land. IF, this gathering is just for physical Israel, to a physical land, then we have to throw out all kinds of Scriptures, and various requirements of the Torah. Have you even considered the dividing of the Land amongst the tribes?
I see know reason why any Scriptures would have to be thrown out. I have not said that only natural Israel will have a possession in the land or have a part in various other promises made by YHUH.

I said that I do not believe in a spiritual Israel that takes the place of natural Israel.

I wrote this on the "Eye of the Storm part 2" thread concerning the land.

With whom is the Covenant made and who will possess the land? Of course it is the nation of Israel (natural Israel), YHUH'S people, his special possession. The Covenant and the land of promise was not made with all the people on the earth. It was made with the nation of Israel and they will dwell there, and the ruler/messiah whom YHUH will raise up from the line of David will rule and reign.

And, here in Ezekiel it shows there is also provision made for non Israelites who are upright before YHUH and wish to dwell among the sons of Israel; and it also shows how the land is divided.

Ezekiel 47
21) And you shall divide this land for yourselves by the tribes of Israel.
22) And it will be, you shall make it fall by lot for a possession to yourselves, and to the sojourner who dwells among you, who shall father sons among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the sons of Israel. They shall be allotted a possession among the tribes of Israel.
And as you have pointed out with some very good Scriptures there a number of wonderful promises to non Israelites who are upright in the eyes of YHUH.

But no one receives anything in place of or instead of natural Israel. Everything is to natural Israel first. It is through natural Israel, which is the seed of Abraham, that the other nations are blessed.

Genesis 22:18 (also 12:3, 18:18, 26:4)
And in your (Abraham's) seed (natural Israel) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed as reward because you have obeyed my voice.

Sandy

04-02-2001, 08:40 AM

I am still waiting for an answer to this question.

If the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants as a possession is not real land, but instead the land of Eternal Life and spiritual:
Why are they still having children? (Ezekiel 37:25)

Ezekiel 37
12) ...I will open your (Israel's) graves and cause you (Israel) to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
14) And shall put my spirit in you (Israel) and you (Israel) shall live, and I shall place you (Israel) in your own land
21) I will take the children of Israel from among the goyim (nations), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.
25) And they (Israel) shall dwell on the land that I gave to my servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt. And they (Israel) shall dwell on it, they (Israel) and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever...

Thummim

04-02-2001, 05:32 PM

Sandy, you make your point obvious. There is no replacement for the people of YHWH. The land is real and the people are real. These are not promises to be "spiritualy" interpreted. The real people inherit the real land. YHWH didn't make his promises to spirits, but to living people. Isn't this a process that is well underway already? ........Michael

Sandy

04-02-2001, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Thummim

Sandy, you make your point obvious. There is no replacement for the people of YHWH. The land is real and the people are real. These are not promises to be "spiritualy" interpreted. The real people inherit the real land. YHWH didn't make his promises to spirits, but to living people. Isn't this a process that is well underway already? ........Michael
You see that and I see that, but ImAhebrew and Spying have made these statements:
Ultimately, the gathering and final inheriting of the Land is fulfilled when Yahweh brings us forth out of the grave to receive the Land of Eternal Life:

Can’t you see it Sandy? To possess the Land (Eternal Life), one has to dwell in humility (Canaan). And you don’t have to be a physical descendent of Israel: They have never answered my question that I asked them concerning this.

Spying

04-03-2001, 07:15 AM

Hi Sandy and Thummim,

How long can any group of people live and enjoy the land? I have lived in and enjoyed Missouri for a number of decades. I might be blessed to enjoy several more. At the most, how many decades do I receive? Do you see? The promises to Abraham make no sense without the resurrection. The promises to his Seed make no sense without the resurrection. The resurrection cannot occur unless one's spirit is reunited with one's body (one's land). Where is that promised in the scriptures?

The Tzaddikim have told you over and over and over again that the promises must be taken in a spiritual sense; otherwise, they don't have any meaning. Without resurrection, they are vanity. You have chosen not to believe. You do not believe because you cannot see. That's ok. That's not your fault.

Messiah Yahushua is the Seed. He has received what has been promised, and you are up a creek without a paddle if you think that you or anyone else are ever going to permanently inherit anything apart from him.

I don't have a whole lot of time, but you know what, keep talking. YAH is listening! If in the Kingdom of ELOHIM, this Missouri boy is reunited with the land of his sojourning, and in looking around, I see Messiah, and I see Abraham, and I see all in Messiah's Body, but I do not see anyone else including the both of you, who inherits the Land of Canaan? Enough said!

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-03-2001, 07:57 AM

Spying, in no way did you answer the following question.

If the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants as a possession is not real land, but instead the land of Eternal Life and spiritual:
Why are they still having children? (Ezekiel 37)

Ezekiel 37
12) ...I will open your (Israel's) graves and cause you (Israel) to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
14) And shall put my spirit in you (Israel) and you (Israel) shall live, and I shall place you (Israel) in your own land
21) I will take the children of Israel from among the goyim (nations), there where they have gone and will gather them from all around and will bring them into their own land.
25) And they (Israel) shall dwell on the land that I gave to my servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt. And they (Israel) shall dwell on it, they (Israel) and their sons and the sons of their sons, forever... This is a perpetual inheritance passed on from generation to generation. This is not speaking about eternal life or something just spiritual. The grave represents Israel in the state of being cast out of the land and made to dwell among all the nations of the earth. Being brought up out of their graves represents Israel being gathered and brought back to the land of their fathers, the land called Israel, which spreads from the Nile all the way to the Euphrates.

It is you who cannot see. You have a Christianized mindset. You are blinded by the Greek Scriptures. You made this statement, which is totally a Christian argument:
Messiah Yahushua is the Seed

Thummim

04-03-2001, 02:11 PM

Spying, what are you saying? I know of a physical land with topography that is given as a possession to YHWH’s chosen people. Topography, such as the mountains of Israel or rains and rivers, makes the land a reality, for a real peoples, too possess. The peoples are flesh and blood peoples, and not angelic beings. This is indicated in the following verse, {Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of YHWH, and in the audience of our Eloheem, keep and seek for all the commandments of YHWH Elohenu: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you forever} 1Chr.28:8. Is your spiritual concept of this land, in exclusion of the physical land? Is your spiritual Israel somewhere above the clouds where only spiritual beings with wings can possess it? Or are you talking about the actual land of Israel? You’re right in saying that we do not understand your concept of the land. Spiritual possession does nothing for the needs of real flesh and blood people who derive their sustenance off the land. The land is mentioned in relationship to the things that it produces, within many of the writings inside of the tanakh. The promise made to Abraham is physical and doesn’t only include Abraham. “Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which YHWH sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and their seed after them. (Deut.1:8). This verse shows that the promise is not just Abraham’s, it also belongs to the seed of all Jacob’s children. Before we deal with spiritual concepts of the land, we should deal with the real land. A real people needed to have had a homeland to speak for them prior to the holocaust. With inheritance in hand, many of these JEWish peoples, who were slaughtered, might be alive still. Would you deny the JEWish peoples their own land, even unto their deaths? Many, who think like you, that is only spiritually of their land, granting them no claim to it, would leave the JEWish people’s naked and dying as befell this people, thanks in part to christianity. The land is a necessity to all JEWs. ….Michael

Spying

04-05-2001, 08:23 AM

Hi Sandy,

They all had physical children so that YAHWEH could eventually fulfill the promises to their Seed, who is Messiah Yahushua. No doubt, we will argue out and debate this concept. You call it a Christian teaching. There are a host of Christian teachings that the Tzaddikim do deny as truth, but this is not one of them. We proclaim with the Apostle Paul that Messiah Yahushua is the Seed to whom the promises were made. We see this concept of the singular, Seed, in other places also. The promises that were made to the Seed of David do also fit into this picture. The Seed of David and the Seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are one and the same. So, it is necessary that we do argue about these things.

I am gratified that you are beginning to look at the Old Testament Scriptures and interpret them in a spiritual sense. I may not agree, but I do like your manner of interpreting the "grave" in Ezekiel 37 as not being a physical grave, but a spiritual grave. I like that approach. Here is what I see you saying. All the generations of the House of Israel and all the Jews of the House of Judah that have been carried away into exile never to return to the physical land, their physical descendants, you say, will be gathered and returned to the physical Land of Canaan from their spiritual graves, and they and their descendants will never be removed from the Land again, all according to the promises of YAH. Both you and Thummim look and see that this is occurring today. Eventually, the both of you must be willing, as ImAHebrew has suggested, to begin to divide the Land amongst the various tribes, must you not? After all, Jews, from the Tribe of Judah, should not inherit land that belongs to Ephraim and Manasseh. Proof of descent must be verified in order for the inheritance to be awarded. How are you going to go about proving that very thing? How do the tribes, who have lost their identity or their genealogy, prove that they are descendants so that they can receive what has been promised? Even many of those who claim that they are Jews cannot now prove their line of descent. Without proof, how can they inherit? What court will award inheritance to anyone who happens to come along and lay claim to it? So, if anyone should ask, I for one would like to see their proof, and especially when the claimants begin to take real physical land and homes from other peoples.

Now, what happens, if the graves are physical graves? A whole lot of exiled peoples get a chance to inherit the physical land at the resurrection, do they not? And not only will they inherit the physical land, but being deemed a part of Messiah, they will inherit, with Messiah and Abraham, this whole world as Paul does indicate:
Rom 4:13
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world (kosmos), was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (KJV)Open you mind a little, Sandy. Dare to dream. It is possible to inherit this world if you can prove your descent.

Now, Stranger will attack Paul by going back to the Law, and he could very well point out that no where does the Law promise the world to Abraham. Ha, so Paul must be all wet here! No doubt, we will have fun debating whether the promise of land possession ultimate means world possession and domination as Paul does indicate, but I will tell you what, you can have your rightful portion of Palestine, if you can prove your descent, until you in turn pass it on to your own children on the day that you die. I will settle in part for a small spring and creek in the Ozark hills of Missouri, the apple of my eye, if I at the resurrection through Messiah am blessed to receive it for an eternity (forever).

Have a great day, Sandy.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-05-2001, 11:05 AM

Hello again Spying, our discussions bring us all into better knowledge. Eze.37:22 takes the nations of Israel and ends the need to divide them into separate nations forever. It reads, "And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. We can go on further and restate Isa.48:1, which has Judah giving birth to the whole house of Israel. Again, Judah stands in the place of YHWH, as mother to this peoples. (Isa.46:3=Isa.48:1) It is going on now. Yahudah is giving birth to the sons of Israel. In time, their king will be with them. He stands in the name of Davids tribe, in the name of his Eloheem. (Isa.9:6,7). Judah is the chosen tribe. "He has chosen Judah to be the ruler" (1Chr.28:4=Deut.12:5) (Gen.49:11=Eze.37:22), the tribe of Judah is attached to the tribe of Joseph, the tribe of Joseph became the tribes of Samaria. The only purpose of the colt is to show the connection made between these tribes in the tying of the colt to the choice vine, which is Joseph. {Judah and Samaria are the whole peoples}.
What do the peoples get for their obedience to YHWH's commandments? Isn't it the land? It's like a contract. YHWH gives his peoples the land for their adherence to his ways. If their is no land given, what then do they get? The land is the center of the promise and it is the peoples, the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc-, who inherit the land. The peoples of the promise are returning to their land in the name of Yahudah, the JEWs. This tribe will be one peoples on their promised land. This peoples will inherit a name as befits a bride betrothed to their Eloheem. And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for YHWH Elohenu shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name. The brides name, comes from her husband (YHWH), as is infered by this name change. "The nations shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of YHWH shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of YHWH, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy Eloheem. Thou shalt no more be termed forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Heph'zi-bah (my delight is in her), and thy land Beu'lah (married): for YHWH delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. (to it's peoples) YHWH is to the name of Yahudah, like a wedding ring upon it's peoples. The tribe of Yahudah bears the name of YHWH, and the tribe of Yahudah is now the tribe of all the peoples. The marrage is ready. The bride shall take on the name of her husband. Your spiritual understanding will lead you to the wrong wedding. The JEWs of Israel, are the bride of YHWH. ....Michael

Spying

04-05-2001, 12:58 PM

Hi Thummim,

You are absolutely right: The Seed can only inherit the Land through obedience to the contract. The acceptance of the contract is this:
Exod 19:8
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that (the) YAHWEH hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto (the) YAHWEH. (KJV)What is more, any of the Seed who do not fulfill or live according to that agreement are indeed cursed. For this scripture says,
Deut 27:26
26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. </font color (KJV)Through their disobedience, they curse Abraham, and prove that they are not his Seed. So, if you are a Jew, and if you desire to inherit the physical land, you must be obedient to all the words of the Torah, not neglecting the smallest dot as Messiah has said,
Matt 5:18-19
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)Why must the whole Torah remain? It must endure because the Torah does identify who exactly the King of the Jews is. The King of the Jews is he who does do the whole Torah, and the King of the Jews is he who teaches the whole Torah. Where is your king, Thummin? Show me one Jew who keeps the whole Law? Does he teach other Jews to keep the whole law? If you should find such a king, then he does live by every word which comes forth from the mouth of YAH. Such a king shall live by the statutes and judgments of YAH. As it is written,
Lev 18:5
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the YAHWEH. (KJV)So, the life of the King of the Jews is based upon performance. Messiah is of the tribe of Yahudah. He performed; therefore, Messiah inherited the Land. You are very correct in looking for the coming of this King. He teaches even the Gentiles how to keep the Torah so that we can also live by every word. You are right in rejecting the Yahushua of this world. The Yahushua of this world is lawless, degrading the Torah, but Adonai Yahushua lives forever through his keeping of the Torah. Come quickly, my Adonai.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-05-2001, 04:05 PM

Spying, your ideas would empty the hope of many JEWs very quickly. There is a path to walk called halacha. What is important, is that you stay on the path. It is understood that no one can walk the path perfectly. Isn't that why atonement exists? Noah and Abraham may have been perfect in their walks with YHWH. Those who follow them, however, spend much time with their faces buried in the ground. Moses and Aaron both offended their Eloheem. Neither could make atonement for their sins. Yet you do not think that they have been struck, from the book of life, do you? David and Solomon offended their Eloheem also. They too find a place in the heart of YHWH. Perfection is something that christians like to throw in the face of JEWs. Perfection isn't required. A determination to be observant of YHWH's will is. You may fall down as often as your feet hit an obstacle. Your required to get up and resume your walk down the path again. How fast you walk the path of righteousness is not important. That you continue down that righteous path is. Those who are in the name of YHWH, are an "all righteous" people. Remember that the righteousness of this peoples comes from their Eloheem. Contrary to your beliefs, YHWH doesn't need help vindicating his people of their failings from any one else. Your messiah is a curse to all JEWs because christianity is a curse to all JEWs. "He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; He will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea." (Mi.7:19) Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the (exalted Eloheem) Shall I come before him with burn't offerings, with calves of a year old? Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and walk humbly with thy GD. YHWH's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod and who hath appointed it. (Mi.6:6-9) This matter of names is hard for you. When you accuse the wife by name, you also accuse the name of the husband. {For all people will walk everyone in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of YHWH our Eloheem for ever and ever.} (Mi.4:5) The righteousness of this peoples is YHWH's concern. You toss JEWs in your hell as easily as do all christians. They are attached to their Eloheem in a way that christians will never be. He, YHWH, is their righteousness. He can even forgive Manasseh if he wants to. YHWH is king of his and all peoples. And YHWH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHWH, and his name one. {the only name of the Eloheem} (Zech.14:9) This has nothing to do with your messiah. It has everything to do with this people's husband, their Eloheem, whose name they bear. "Assuredly, my people shall learn my name, Assuredly [they shall learn] on that day that I, the one who promised, am now at hand." Isa.52:6 JPS. This sacred name has something to do with the redemption of this peoples, from the wrath of this world. (jesus) failed this test. He didn't clothe his people with the sacred name. He didn't prepare them for their marriage to their GD. He didn't redeem them at all. (Isa.61:10) Believe that YHWH has redeemed his peoples and that he doesn't recount their sins. "The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but YHWH shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy Eloheem thy glory. The sun shall no more go down; neither shall the moon withdraw itself: for YHWH shall be thy everlasting light, and the days of thy morning shall be ended. (if christianity will allow) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I YHWH will hasten it in his time. Isa.60:19-22 (remove the fourth day/daleth) ....Michael

Sandy

04-05-2001, 05:45 PM

Hello Spying
You wrote:
I am gratified that you are beginning to look at the Old Testament Scriptures and interpret them in a spiritual sense. I may not agree, but I do like your manner of interpreting the "grave" in Ezekiel 37 as not being a physical grave, but a spiritual grave. I think it would be helpful if you would explain what the word spirit or spiritual means to you.

What I interpreted is an allegory not a spiritual representation.

You wrote:
Here is what I see you saying. All the generations of the House of Israel and all the Jews of the House of Judah that have been carried away into exile never to return to the physical land, their physical descendants, you say, will be gathered and returned to the physical Land of Canaan from their spiritual graves, and they and their descendants will never be removed from the Land again, all according to the promises of YAH. Both you and Thummim look and see that this is occurring today. I do not see that as occurring today. I do not believe that the majority of those who are called Jews in Israel today are of those to be gathered and returned to the land. The reason being that none of the other conditions have been met or are taking place.

The Messiah/King is a signal:
Isaiah 11
10) ...the root of Jesse that stands as the peoples signal, nations will inquire of him...
11) And it will be in that day, AGAIN a second time, the hand of YHUH will procure the remnant of his people that remains...
12) ...and will gather the outcast of Israel and the scattered of Yahudah, collecting them from the four corners of the earth. That is the OPPOSITE of what took place concerning Iesous/Jesus/Yahushua. The temple was destroyed and the Israelites were scattered NOT gathered.
Jeremiah 23
5) Behold, the days come, says YHUH that I will raise to David a branch of uprightness and a king will reign and act wisely, and will do justice and rightness in the earth.
6) In his days Yahudah will be SAVED and Israel will dwell SAFELY. And this is his name by which he will be called YHUH Tsdqnu (YHUH our Uprightness). Iesous/Jesus/Yahushua is NOT the root of Jesse, or branch of uprightness raised out of David, that fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah and Jeremiah.
Ezekiel 34
23) And I will raise up over them one shepherd and he shall feed them, my servant David, he shall feed them and he shall be their shepherd
24) And I YHUH will be their elohim and my servant David shall rule among them...
25) And I will cut a Covenant of Peace with them...
26) And I will make them and the places around my hill a blessing...
27) ...and they shall be SECURE on their land... Iesous/Jesus/Yahushua did NOT rule then nor does he rule among the Jews in Israel today nor at any time over the last two thousand years There is NO Covenant of Peace No one is living securely on the land The Jews nor anyone else in Israel are a blessing nor are there blessings around the hill of YHUH as spoken of in verse 26 above.

Thummim

04-06-2001, 08:49 AM

--- Shalom Sandy. Some of the things that you wrote to Spying, spark my interest. [AGAIN a second time the hand of YHWH will procure the remnant of his people, that remains.] The first time is the exodus from Babylon. The only other time is right now. Don’t you believe that this is the second gathering? It seems to me that you have to build the house before you can live in it. Do you believe that the second gathering comes later and that these people, who have taken possession of the land, are not the right people spoken of as being gathered from the four corners of the earth? They definitely are coming from all over the world. They are JEWish, as evidenced by their oppression. The world hasn’t allowed this people to loose their identity. What people would be a candidate for replacing them, as the peoples to inherit the land?
[The Messiah/King is a signal]: Don’t you need a kingdom before you can have a king? This is how the people came to be a kingdom under Saul. First you gather the people, then you appoint a king. We agree that (jesus) isn’t King, or Messiah. We both look for a redeemer who redeems. Why can’t the JEWish people, also be a branch of uprightness to David? As to gathering the dispersed of Israel (Ephraim), I addressed this in another post on this thread. The people are no longer to be, two peoples (Eze.37:22), but melded into a single people with one king. My timeline for these changes is concurrent with present events. Do you have a different timeline? Addressing the matter of the [Root of Jesse], I think that we both agree that this root is Yahudah. Am I wrong here? Assuming that, the throne of David left the earth after the reign of Jehoiachin, the eight year old son of Jehoiakim, in order for David to have an everlasting throne, as the prophets declare, YHWH has to sit on that throne as king. Can YHWH be the righteous king who reigns until the rebirth of the earthly throne of David? If we gather a people out of the world, to allow the possibility of a kingdom, then a king of peace can take the throne and turn conflict into peace. I assume that his knowledge will lead a {war torn people?} to the declaration, “speak comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished” (Isa.40:2). [In his days Yahudah will be saved and Israel will dwell safely. And this is the name by which he will be called, YHWH Tsdqnu (YHWH our uprightness)]. Can the name of YHWH make a people righteous? Can the name of YHWH make a people a nation of priests? It can if the people find the name of YHWH to be short by a letter. It is the unlearned name of (GD), which is to be learned (Isa.52:6), that signals this special time, to me. YHWH will reveal his name to his enemies. I gloat over the possibility that the name of YHWH might be JEW (YaHW DaH), having the fourth letter withheld from the name, in the manner that this people withhold a letter from the term {G-D} and {L-RD}. Why do the people do this? Why should we believe that they haven’t done it before, and for the same reason? So if the people truly bear the name of their GD, then the name of YHWH becomes the name of their defence. There is a link between the name of YHWH and the name of YHWDH (Yahudah). This is the tribe that YHWH chooses for the throne that he now sits upon. (1Chr.28:4) If YHWH sits down in the name of Yahudah, Doesn’t he bring righteousness to the name of its people? If the throne of David is to continue beyond Jehoiachin, only YHWH can keep it everlasting, by occupying it. Either this is so, or the prophets who prophesize an everlasting throne for David, are liars. YHWH, himself, would wed the names of YHWH and Yahudah into a single name. YHWH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHWH, and his name one {name}. (Zech.14:9) The JEWish people are more secure on their own land, then they have been, in almost two millennia in other lands. I look forward to improvements here. They will come in time, given the strength of a wise mans presence. We’re asking a lot of the tanakh, to be word on, perfect. {it isn’t, as we both know} Sometimes I think that the world, wants to keep the JEWish people within the pages of their book, as though it was their cage. I’ve tried to argue that a people need to evolve. Even YHWH can be shown to change with the evolution of time. “But everyone shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his (own) teeth shall be set on edge.” (Jer.31:30). This goes with YHWH’s new covenant and signals his evolving into new perception of justice. I need to note something, no one is living securely on their own land. The JEWish peoples are more secure than most peoples. Perhaps, we need to change our concept of what security is. I would rather walk down a street in Israel, than a street, here in America. …..Michael

Sandy

04-06-2001, 07:40 PM

Hi Thummim
I am not sure what you mean by this statement:
They are JEWish, as evidenced by their oppression.

Sandy

04-06-2001, 10:56 PM

Hi Thummim
According to Isaiah 11 this signal (or banner), the stump/root of Jesse, the branch will be raised up and then the gathering.

I see the possibility that this root of Jesse that is raised up that becomes the signal or banner as the cause or reason of the exodus or return of the descendents of Israel back to Israel. I also see it as most likely enmass not something spread out over an undetermined number of years.
Isaiah 11
10) And it shall be in that day, the root of Jesse that stands to signal peoples, to him nations shall seek...
11) And it will be in that day, Adony shall add a second time, his hand to obtain the remnant of his people that remains...
12) And he will raise a signal to the nations and will gather the outcast of Israel and the scattered of Yahudah, collecting them from the four corners of the earth. It is possible this person who is the root of Jesse, the signal (or banner), is not actually made king until after the gathering is complete.

Thummim

04-07-2001, 09:18 PM

Happy pesach Sandy. Isa. 56:8 sets up two gatherings of YHWH's people. It says, "YHWH Elohenu, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered." This allows for the gathering before the gathering, which allows us both to win this argument. In the context of the previous verses which speak of YHWH's name being everlasting and the house of YHWH becoming a house of prayer for all people, we can call this verse prophetic and move it into our own time. On JEWs being known to be JEWs through the oppression of the world, I mean that their oppression has marked their travel into our present time. We know that this people are JEWs, because the world would not let them forget that they are JEWs. There is no better candidate for the ingathered people, than these. 1Chr.28:4 tells us that Judah is the chosen tribe of the king. It ties into Deut.12:5, where YHWH says that he will choose one tribe out of the twelve to be the place where his name is to be served. Judah is also the root of Jesse. There are twelve roots, each represented by a different stone. Davids stone bears the name of GD. It is the name of YHWH that the banner is raised in. (Ps.20:5) It is the name of Judah that the king sits down in. Isa.9:6 is identified as talking about the throne of David in the next verse. 1ki.11:36, identifies this tribe as belonging to David. It is to the name of {YHWH}, as it relates to the name of Yahudah, that the nations seek out and are drawn to. The name of YHWH and the name of Yahudah are the same name. The prophets know this. I seem to be {typeing} myself blue in the face on this point. If you think in terms of these two names being the same name, the tanakh becomes less confusing. Praise Yah is the name of Judah as well as the name of YHWH.What happens when the JEWish people discover that they share a name with their GD? ....Michael

Sandy

04-08-2001, 12:07 PM

Hello Thummim
Sorry if it seems I am looking to win or something. I am not looking to win a debate, but to find truth, whatever it may be.

You wrote:
Isa. 56:8 sets up two gatherings of YHWH's people. It says, "YHWH Elohenu, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered." I don't believe I have ever said there are no non-Israelites to be included. But they are a minority not the majority. And it is Israel that is gathered first. Everything is always to Israel first.

As to your translation of Isaiah 65:8, it doesn't really match what it says according to the Hebrew text.
Isaiah 65
8) Oracle (saith) Adony, YHUH, from gathering my outcast Israel, again I will gather upon him to his gathered ones.

9) All life of the field come to eat, all living in the forest.
10) His watchmen are blind. they all do not know, they are all dumb dogs that cannot bark; dreaming, lying down, loving to slumber.
11) Yes, dogs harsh of soul, never satisfied. And they are shepherds unable to discern. They all look to their own way, each man to his own gain, from his own end. You wrote:
In the context of the previous verses which speak of YHWH's name being everlasting and the house of YHWH becoming a house of prayer for all people, we can call this verse prophetic and move it into our own time. Yes, I agree we can call it prophetic, but as to moving it into our own time, I am not so sure. One reason for this is that the house of prayer, YHUH'S house/the Temple doesn't exist in our own time.

BTW what does a house of prayer have in common with sacrifices and burnt offerings?

Also, are you absolutely sure verse 8 of Isaiah 56 is referring to the previous verses or is it possible that it is referring to the verses that follow, which I have shown above?

Thummim

04-08-2001, 03:02 PM

Shalom Sandy. You force me to do some deeper research into these verses. What is being spoken of here, is the regathering of Israel. In the timeset of these verses, Israel, not Judah, has been removed from the land by the Assyrians. The prophet speaks of these people. The assumption of the prophet, is that YHWH will gather these tribes back to the land of Israel. The author is definitly talking about the return of the captive people of Assyria and when and how they will return, and why YHWH let them be carried off in the first place. The prophet in Isa.11:12 speaks of the gathering of both peoples of YHWH. Perhaps the two gatherings refer to both houses of Israel. A separate gathering for Judah and then a gathering for Israel. This ingathering is supposed to take place at the time of Assyria's existance, as evidenced in the many mentionings of Assyria in the text. That places the second gathering well into the past. As to weither this second gathering ever occured, I doubt it. Judah came out of Babylon, as you know. The tribes called "Ephraim" no longer exist in the context of Assyria's existance. YHWH's house of prayer is identified as being on the holy mountain. This is definitively speaking of the house built for the name of GD. As to what temple sacrifice has to do with prayer, I don't know. But previously in the chapter, the offerings of strangers are said to be exceptable to YHWH. I suppose that YHWH enjoys a good steak every now and then. The strangers who join themselves to YHWH will be allowed to make atonement for their sins. This is likely a way of the prophet saying that strangers who attach themselves to YHWH's peoples, will be exceptable to him. As to a temple being built in our own time, I think it likely. If it's of any interest, the tribe of Judah raises it's standards in the name of it's Eloheem. (Ps.20:5 KJV) Weither Israel (the tribes of Ephraim), will ever be regathered out of a world that swallowed up the existance of this people, I doubt it. Likely they will come from the JEWish people as indicated in Isa.48:1. I believe that there will only be one people from now on. This is Ezekiel's outcome (Eze.37:22). This also seems to be prophecied in the book of Genesis, where Judah binds his foal and the foals colt to the choice vine, which I believe to be the tribe of Joseph >>(Ephraim). (Gen.49:11) These ingatherings within the context of a missing people, are open to wild interpretations. Isa.9:6,7 are not given in the context of the temple, but rather in the context of Davids throne, or the tribe of Judah. The word, (temple), is mentioned in the sixth chapter of Isaiah, then not again until the fourty fourth chapter of Isaiah. All other references to it are by inference, such as that of Isa.56:7. There is very little mention of the temple in the book of Isaiah (three times). This might have something to do with the time in which it was written. Likely the temple had already been distroyed when the texts of Isaiah were written. I must say, I do not believe that their will be another people to be gathered to the land of Israel. That would be an assault against the JEWish peoples. Only a continuing, of the gathering of the JEWish peoples out of all the countries in which they live, do I anticipate. If another peoples, lays claim to the land, I'm going to grab my uzi! ....Michael

Sandy

04-08-2001, 03:45 PM

Hi again Thummim
That was a great post. Things you say are so down to earth and usually so easy to understand. I really enjoy your posts.

Spying

04-17-2001, 06:01 AM

Hi Thummim,

So, you do doubt that the descendants of the House of Israel, all the lost tribes carried away into captivity, will be gathered together again! Read the scriptures, Thummim. What do they say?:
Isa 5:5-7
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of (the) YAHWEH of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. (KJV)

Isa 5:13-14
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. (KJV)

Isa 5:24-26
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness (who is their root?), and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of (the) YAHWEH of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of (the) YAHWEH kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far (the Cross), and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: (KJV)With these words Moses does agree:
Deut 30:3-9
3 That then (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of (the) YAHWEH, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for (the) YAHWEH will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: (KJV)Moses in this prophecy is speaking of all Israel. For the most part Thummin, you only are able to look at Jews as being Israel, and, therefore, you do not look for Israel among the nations as do I. However, should YAHWEH be faithful to HIS word, salvation does come to all Israel and not just to the House of Judah, the Jews. Indeed, YAHWEH will rule over all and not just a part of Israel:
Ezek 20:33-35
33 As I live, saith the ADONAI ELOHIM, surely with a mighty hand (the spiritual fulfillment of the Law, Sandy), and with a stretched out arm (the Cross), and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people (who are the people here), and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. (KJV)This pleading occurs through the preaching (sprinkling) of the Gospel. The face to face is occurring now amongst those who have received the spirit in the latter days:
Deut 4:26-31
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And (the) YAHWEH shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither (the) YAHWEH shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM is a merciful EL), he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. (KJV)So, Thummim, when you look at a Gentile, you see a Gentile. When I look at a Gentile, I see an Israelite, and I am very thankful for the faithfulness and mercy of YAHWEH towards us all.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-17-2001, 07:44 AM

Hello Spying
Your wrote:
When I look at a Gentile, I see an Israelite
The people of other goyim (nations), whom you mistakenly call gentiles, are not Israel. Certain non Israelite people who wish to join Israel and dwell among them become like Israel and then the Torah is the same for both. But you are very mistaken when you say all goyim (nations), whom you call gentiles, are Israel.

Thummim

04-17-2001, 11:09 AM

…Shalom Spying, This is what I believe concerning the families of YHWH. They will be gathered as a single people, the whole house of Israel into {Yahudah}, the tribe of Jacob that bears the name of YHWH. This name is the name that goes on the marriage document (ketubah) between YHWH and his people. This ketubah is hatorah and to a greater extent, the tanakh. YHWH will take his people to himself, as does any husband, through his own name. It is necessary that all YHWH’s people belong to his own name. Israel will be a part of the JEWish people. Literally, Yahudah will give birth to the sons of Jacob, completing the ingathering. {Isa.48:1} = Hos.1:11, Eze.37:22 The greatest gift that the JEWish people will get from their Eloheem is a name beyond reproach that will make the people a nation of priests as well as disallowing the people from touching death (YHWH doesn’t), and further making all the seed of Israel righteous (as the name of YHWH always is) . There will be peace. Who wants to make war with YHWH? The law will be in the hearts of all Yahudeem, as it is in many already. The root of Jesse {the name of Yahudah}, will be the ensign to which all the JEWish people gather. The banner of the tribe of Yahudah is the name of YHWH. {Ps.20:5} Into the image of YHWH {Gen.1:26}, comes the name of YHW(d)H. YHWH is the righteousness of his peoples. , that is “YHWH, our RIGHTEOUSNESS”. It is their tree of life. Their righteousness is of their own Eloheem. This is my personal belief concerning the purpose of the tanakh. >>>>The name of YHWH is the engine that makes it work.
Isaiah, the fifth chapter, belongs to the time previous to the coming of the Assyrians. It is their banner that is raised. Their banner is not a cross. These chapters will be very confusing to you as they describe a time when Israel constantly makes war with it’s brother Yahudah, and not a virgin birth. You cannot understand the full context of this chapter of Isaiah without reading many other chapters of Isaiah and the stories relating to it, as put together in the books of the Kings, as well as the Chronicles. I believe Jotham or Ahaz to be king at this time. My dating of this chapter is 760 BCE. As to who is their root, this line of text doesn’t run backwards. It refers to these particular people, being spoiled by their lack of faith in their own Eloheem. Israel is swallowed up into the body of the world’s peoples, because there is nothing to keep them distinct from them. The tribe of Yahudah is different. It will come out of its captivity newly covered, by faith in it’s torah. The people have their torah to sustain themselves during this time, in place of their priests and their temple. Literally, they take their faith into their own hearts. Later in Isaiah, the house of Yahudah, is given full pardon, by their Eloheem, after serving their time in captivity. {“I have blotted, as a thick cloud, thy sins: return unto me, for I have redeemed thee. Isa.44:22}” Six verses later, this redemption is dated to the time of Cyrus. Christianity, of course, doesn’t allow that YHWH blotted out the sins of these Babylonian exiles. Neither have you. You need to believe in what is happening now. The JEWish people are returning to their land. How did they survive dispersion, if they did not make themselves a distinct people? Wasn’t it the torah that separated them from all other peoples? If they had abandoned the law which made them distinct, as many christians have desired, they would have ended up like the tribes of Israel did. If Yahudah gives birth to the tribes of Israel, they will be born into the name of their Eloheem. They won’t be married to a lamb, but they will be married to YHWH.
Christians don’t realize that a passover lamb is not a sin offering. {Nu.28:16,22} A sin offering is made in addition to the passover being killed. Also, a sin offering, is an offering made by fire. It’s a “whole burnt offering”. One thing christianity always gets wrong, the offerings are atonement’s, they do not expiate sin. They are a penalty for having sinned. For this reason, Moses couldn’t cross the Jordan into the promise land by making atonement for having sinned. YHWH still wouldn’t have forgiven him because he didn't allow YHWH to be the deliverer of his own people. Instead, Moses and Aaron took it upon themselves to be the deliverers of YHWH’s people. They did not (sanctify) YHWH as saviour. Now, christianity forces upon this people, a redeemer who won’t redeem, disallowing YHWH to be the peoples redeemer. This is the same sin that Moses was guilty of. If christianity will not allow YHWH to be deliverer of his own people, Christianity is guilty of the sin of Moses. Now, will YHWH allow the christians to cross over, when they won’t (sanctify) YHWH’s name either? The JEWish people refuse to follow another deliverer. They know the voice of their own shepherd. YHWH will deliver them through his own name. ….Michael

Spying

04-21-2001, 06:13 AM

Hi Thummim,

I have appreciated your last two posts to me. I am somewhat behind everyone on the Sacred Names issues, and I have made it a policy on the forums not to debate the issue because of my lack of knowledge concerning them. Dorota (LoveforYah) and her husband, Genyu, just gave to me a very nice gift of a Bible with the Sacred Names inserted. It is my favorite version, the KJV. Normally, the Tzaddikim do not use the Sacred Names in our assemblies, but we did use them almost exclusively this past feast. We were blessed by the presence of Genyu, Dorota, and their daughter, and they were a very positive influence on us with respect to their sincerity and their actual using of the Sacred Names. I am a firm believer that one learns by doing. I have a lot of doing to do with respect to the Sacred Names so I suppose I have a lot of learning coming my way.

I am not opposed to incorporating the name, Jew or Yahudah, into the Sacred Names. That makes sense to me. Many of your beliefs concerning the tribe of Judah can be applied to Messiah who was of that tribe. In other words, I accept some of what you believe; only I look for the true fulfillment in Messiah Yahushua, who is the true praiser of YAH. There is no worship of YAH outside of accomplishing His will and work which is the true food of the saints. Right now there is great famine in the world. The Physical Jews do know alot about that will and work, but they are only looking at both through a physical doing. They will not begin to understand spiritual doing until they are willing to apprehend the work of Messiah Yahushua and begin to share in his doing.

All trees are known by their fruit, and it is the root that establishes and supports and feeds the tree. That Israel is compared to a vine by the scriptures is beyond any doubt. YAH brought this vine out of Egypt:
Ps 80:8-9
8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
9 Thou preparedst room before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land. (KJV)In my mind, Egypt is symbolic for flesh with no life or unregenerate mankind, sinful mankind. The root of unregenerate mankind is Satan who was in the Garden of ELOHIM and who also has his origin in ELOHIM:
Ezek 31:7
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. (KJV)When YAH created man, YAH who is the root of all was basically grafting Himself into the tree of Satan. YAH placed His good spirit in flesh, and YAH subjected that good spirit to corruption in order to eventually purify the very root, the very spirit which Satan had corrupted. So, everything that mankind has experienced is part of a warfare that was waged to reclaim and make eternal spirit again pure. This is a warfare that YAHWEH has won through Messiah Yahushua.

So, Israel is a transplanted vine from the tree of Satan which has been cultivated and cared for by YAH Himself in order that this vine should bring forth good fruit:
Isa 27:6
6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit. (KJV)But what did Israel actually accomplish? Israel sinned. This is her record:
Deut 29:16-29
16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them)
18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from (the) YAHWEH our ELOHIM, to go and serve the elohim of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
20 The YAHWEH will not spare him, but then the anger of (the) YAHWEH and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and (the) YAHWEH shall blot out his name from under heaven.
21 And (the) YAHWEH shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which (the) YAHWEH hath laid upon it;
23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which (the) YAHWEH overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath (the) YAHWEH done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of (the) YAHWEH ELOHIM of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
26 For they went and served other elohim, and worshipped them, elohim whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
27 And the anger of (the) YAHWEH was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And (the) YAHWEH rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
29 The secret things belong unto (the) YAHWEH our ELOHIM: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (KJV)(Continued in next post)

Spying

04-21-2001, 06:29 AM

(Continuation of post to Thummin on "Roots")

The House of Judah was not exempt from this drunkenness and thirst. She proved herself worst than the House of Israel:
Jer 3:8-18
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith (the) YAHWEH.
11 And (the) YAHWEH said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith (the) YAHWEH; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith (the) YAHWEH, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against (the) YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith (the) YAHWEH.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith (the) YAHWEH; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith (the) YAHWEH, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of (the) YAHWEH: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of (the) YAHWEH; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of (the) YAHWEH, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. (KJV)Thummim, it is abundantly evident that the root of both Judah and Israel is rotten to the core. What possible good would be accomplished by returning and planting the same root in the physical land of Israel? How could you not have the exact same result as occurred in the past? Look at the fruit that the nation of Israel does now display! Look at the relationships that she has with her neighbors! She attacks and destroys not knowing if she is killing the innocent. She cuts down fruit trees. Is it not written?:
Prov 12:3
3 A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved.(KJV)The nation of Israel has been moved to cut down orchards. One word from the United States and Sharon is moved. So, whose root does now grow in the land? This is the very root that the poor will feed upon (My food is the doing of the work and will). As it is written:
Isa 14:29-32
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That (the) YAHWEH hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (KJV)Thanks be to YAHWEH ELOHIM, that YAHWEH has already founded Zion through Messiah Yahushua. Messiah is the branch that becomes the root of all the living, the very Tree of Life.

Have a good Sabbath, Thummin

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-21-2001, 09:11 AM

Hello Spying
You wrote:
When YAH created man, YAH who is the root of all was basically grafting Himself into the tree of Satan.
What a strange thing for you to say. First you say that YAH is the root of all and then turn around and graft him into the tree of Satan!! You are giving far too much credit to the one you call Satan. Do you really think YAH merely joins himself to evil? Does he not say that he is the one who creates evil?

I make peace and create evil
(Isaiah 45:7 )

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth both evil and good
(Lamentations 3:38 )

So says YHUH; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you
(Jeremiah 18:11)

Under such circumstances, how can one honestly put the blame on Israel or anyone other than
YHUH himself?

YHUH says: I will put my Torah in their inward parts and I will write it on their hearts
(Jeremiah 31:33)
I will give them one heart and one pathway
(Jeremiah 32:39)
I will put my fear in their heart that the will not depart from me
(Jeremiah 32:40)
I will give to them one heart
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
I will put a new spirit within them
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
I will give them a heart of flesh
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
And what is the purpose of these acts performed by YHUH?
So that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them
(Ezekiel 11:20)

And cause you to walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them
(Ezekiel 36:27)

YHUH says, As I have brought all that great evil on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I spoke to them
(Jeremiah 32:42)
It is obvious that YHUH could have accomplished these things from the very beginning, but chose not to. WHY?????

Thummim

04-22-2001, 08:12 AM

If a man or woman, serves their sentence, should they be set free? After serving their time in Babylon, YHWH testifies that the debt of the peoples of Yahudah, is expunged. Do you disagree with YHWH? When does YHWH lay a new charge against this people? Does (jesus) believe this people to be, once again guilty of the sins they have already atoned for? After YHWH vindicates his people and brings them out of Babylon, it seems to me that they should be esteemed righteous with YHWH. Why recharge them? Do you want to be judged in this way? ....Michael

...I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: Return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa.44:22
...That saith of Cyrus, he is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, thou shalt be built {again}; and to the temple, thy foundation shall be laid. Isa.44:28

...Please Spying, let my people go!

Spying

04-23-2001, 07:06 AM

Hi Sandy,

Your attitude towards Yahushua is beginning to change. It may be imperceptible to you, but I can see it. YAHWEH is softening all of our hearts towards each other. Thummin is right. We are becoming friends. How do you think that we are all going to be able to get along with each other for an eternity? How will we ever learn to bear up under the abuse and selfishness that we normally and inadvertently without thinking heap upon each other? The only way we can truly learn is through experience. We learn by doing, and we all begin by doing wrong, by engaging in evil. We truly learn the evil of our doings when the evil is done to us. It is very difficult to overcome the desire to repay evil with evil. Friendship requires that we learn to repay evil with good. It is good to insist on individual and collective accountability. Repentance is good. It is good to forgive. It is good to make amends. It is good to restore. It is good to bear each other's burdens. By engaging in this good in this life, we are learning the secrets of how to live together in peace for an eternity.

Do not think it strange that YAHWEH would graft Himself into Satan's tree in order to ultimately destroy the works of Satan. YAHWEH is holding Satan accountable. Satan is paying with everything that he has. All is being taken from him. Imagine a spirit being left with no spirit. This is the fate of Satan.

Now, Satan has lost because he is predictable. He can only follow a certain pattern that is always directed inward seeking to maintain his standard of existence. YAHWEH is willing to lose everything in order that others might share in His existence. YAHWEH has set the standard. Satan is against the standard. YAHWEH has determined what is good. Whenever good is determined to be good, evil is created thereby. This creation of evil is automatic if good truly is good. So, YAHWEH is the source of evil, but Satan is the one who has made evil his good. Vengeance belongs to YAHWEH. Thanks be to YAHWEH ELOHIM that vengeance is now in the hands of Messiah Yahushua.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-23-2001, 02:10 PM

Hello Spying
Your wrote:
We learn by doing, and we all begin by doing wrong, by engaging in evil. We truly learn the evil of our doings when the evil is done to us. It is very difficult to overcome the desire to repay evil with evil. You think the way we learn is by engaging in evil? I cannot agree with such a philosophy.

We do learn (hopefully) from our mistakes, but we also learn through the actions of others to whom we look up to.

The Hebrew Scriptures clearly say: An eye for an eye, etc.

It is the Greek Scriptures (NT) that teach to turn the other cheek, etc., which as far as I am concerned leaves much to be desired.

I do believe in the saying: Treat others as you wish to be treated.

I do not believe in the saying: Do as I say, not as I do.

As to your comment:
Your attitude towards Yahushua is beginning to change. It may be imperceptible to you, but I can see it. You are dreaming. I see Iesous as being the first Christian martyr NOT the Messiah.

Spying

04-25-2001, 06:27 AM

Hi Thummin,

I have leveled this charge against all men: All men are guilty of slaying an innocent man, Messiah Yahushua, through their sin. This sin can be either individual or collective, but it is our sin. YAHWEH redeemed the Children of Israel through His greatness and brought them out of the Land of Egypt. How many of these redeemed entered the Land of Canaan? Only two. If YAHWEH, can lay a charge against His redeemed (from the reproach of Egypt) and hold them guilty and accountable, why do you object that I should charge all sinners with the death of Messiah, making no distinction between Jew and Gentile, if they are indeed guilty of sin? How is it that YAHWEH does blot away our sins and transgressions? Does YAHWEH truly remove our sin from each of us, or does YAHWEH merely hid our sin from Himself? In other words, Thummin, what does it mean to be redeemed from Egypt and Babylon, to be redeemed from sin and confusion? Who is it that returns? Does the sinner return as a sinner? Or is it the one who has been redeemed from sin and death, who does return?

By your comments to me, you show yourself to be somewhat Christian in your thinking. Traditional Christians do not believe in the power of YAHWEH to remove sin from the sinner. Oh, they believe in the power of YAHWEH to cover and hid sin in order to leave the sinner comfortable in his sin. What you are doing is applying that same mentality to the Jewish people. You are not doing them a favor if they truly are still engaged in sin.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-25-2001, 08:16 AM

Hello Spying

You wrote:
All men are guilty of slaying an innocent man, Messiah Yahushua, through their sin. You continually ignore the fact that YHUH States a person dies for their own sins. Another person cannot die in our stead.

Iesous was a martyr NOT the messiah.

He plainly states:
John 10:17-18
...I lay down my soul that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down from myself...

Thummim

04-25-2001, 10:25 AM

Spying, are you going to argue that YHWH didn't redeem his people and forgive their sin as stated in Isa.44:22?

Spying

04-27-2001, 05:58 AM

Hi Thummim,

YAHWEH did redeem the Babylonian captives just like YAHWEH redeemed Israel from Egypt. If the redemption of one generation means the redemption of all generations, then there never would have been captives in Babylon to redeem. YAHWEH did forgive the sin of Israel in Egypt. If their forgiveness means the forgiveness of all generations, then YAHWEH Himself does not believe in the power of His own forgiveness. Think about it.

I know that you are moved to apply the redemption written about by Isaiah to present day Jews, but it does not mean that it will happen for them just because it happened for their ancestors in ancient Egypt or Babylon. I believe that there does exist a redemption that is generational, but not in a physical sense. You must look at the spiritual to see it. Don't look at physical generations; rather, look at spiritual generations. There are many present day Jews who have the same Father and Mother as I do. There were many Jews 2000 years ago who had the same Father and Mother as I do presently have. There are also many Jews today whose Father is not YAHWEH and whose Mother is not Yahushua. Pray that they be given His spirit (His seed or sperm) through Messiah Yahushua, our redeemer.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-27-2001, 08:10 AM

...After the JEWish peoples come out of Babylon, where does YHWH lift the redemption of JEWs? Isn't the promise, not to be angry again? (Isa.54:7-10) Isn't this redemption to be an everlasting one? (Isa.45:17) ....Michael

Spying

04-27-2001, 08:55 AM

Hi Thummim,

Did not the Jewish people come forth from Babylon? Were they not restored to Palestine? Did they not rebuild the Temple? If YAHWEH did not lift his redemption from the Jews, why did he allow the Romans to destroy the restored Temple? Why did YAHWEH again exile and scatter the Jews amongst the nations if they were permanently redeemed and forgiven by any other means than though Messiah Yahushua? No, the destruction of the Second Temple and the Diaspora of the Jewish Nation is an indictment against them that they do not ignore, and you, Thummim, if you love the Jewish peoples as you say, you should not ignore the indictment either.

Quit denying the obvious. YAHWEH was angry again. That is why there is no physical Temple today. That is why there are still Jews captive today, but you know, you are on the right track when you recognize that the redemption written about by Isaiah is eternal. Everlasting redemption can only come to an eternal people. If I have everlasting redemption, then I am eternal. If you attempt to make everlasting redemption a physical generational thing, then you are going to eventually fall into the same ditch with the rest of the blind who are scurrying around to build the third physical Temple in order to prove to the world their redemption, that is, until they die.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-27-2001, 09:22 AM

Spying, S... happens, it happens to JEWs, it happens to christians. Your argument, puts all people that S... happens to, in the wrath of YHWH. I would rather believe that YHWH needs the strength of his name to work his wonders. If my Eloheem is allowed to be "all powerful", than he also becomes "all accountable" for the events that happen in this world. Everything happens because YHWH allows it to happen?. I do not have an all powerful Eloheem in the context of my own time. But sooner or later he will turn things about so that he can catch his enemies in his net. My view of the tanakh is built upon the name of my Eloheem (HaShem) eventually turning the events of this world into the direction that he wants them to go. I don't take all evil as a sign that my (GD) desires all evils, to take place. This article I just posted on another forum. It might help you to better understand my faith. This post deals with an article about the simularities that exist, between the Hebrew faith and older ancient faiths. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Any author must use the knowledge of his own time to build his story upon. I supposed us all to have known that the author(s) of the tanakh were not present at the creation of their universe. Some of the “virgin” ideas of this author are found in the creation of man in the image of his Eloheem, planting the earth before the sun, moon and stars exist, dividing light from dark, twice, combining his gods into a single “plural” GD having a single voice and making the naming event (Gen.2:18), a central focus followed through the line of Shem. (the name). In these things, the author sets up his personal faith and makes it unique from all others. Discovering that an author uses his own knowledge in his literary work, allows a deeper look into the authors mind. The author has ideas to express that he wants to reveal in his work. A simple idea here, is breathing the name of his Eloheem into his {GD’s} people. Becoming connected to an Eloheem by his name and worshipping him through his name, shows the authors of the tanakh, to exceed the ways of worshipping the previous gods. Create a name, create a law for the name, build a house for the name, connect the people to the name, vindicate the people and give them righteousness through the name and finally give them eternal life through the name, these are the unique ideas of the authors of the tanakh. YHWH is the excellent name of Psalms 8:1 and it connects the throne of David to his Eloheems name making an everlasting throne for David to sit upon. (Ps.89:24) The key to the tanakh is in the name of Yahudah. I agree that the author(s) had to work with the knowledge that they possessed at the time. But it’s what they did with that knowledge that connects us to our Eloheem. HaShem is what the tanakh is all about. ….Michael

Spying

04-29-2001, 09:28 PM

Hi Thummim,

Humm, bad things just happen, uh? So, the destruction of the first Temple just happened? So, the destruction of the second Temple just happened? Should we conclude the same about the origin of good things? I guess both physical Temples were originally built in the same manner. They just happened, didn't they? YAHWEH is not really in charge, is He? Is that really your YAH? Poor old, reactionary YAH! He is just constantly reacting to bad happenings until He should decide through the greatness of His names to bring His salvation to His people so that bad things can now happen to the very captors of His people, the Gentiles. At least when this bad thing should happen to those evil Gentiles, then we will all surely know that bad things just don't happen, won't we? You are correct. YAHWEH does have a net, and the whole world has already been caught in it through the cross of Messiah Yahushua. YAHWEH is in charge, and YAHWEH does believe in accountability. Is this not what Moses prophecies in the Law?
Deut 29:27-28
27 And the anger of (the) YAHWEH was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And (the) YAHWEH rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day. (KJV)So, YAHWEH did hold Israel responsible:
II Ki 17:18
18 Therefore (the) YAHWEH was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.(KJV)And not only Israel, but YAHWEH also has held Judah accountable:
Jer 32:28-30
28 Therefore thus saith (the) YAHWEH; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it:And the Chaldeans, that fight against this city, shall come and set fire on this city, and burn it with the houses, upon whose roofs they have offered incense unto Baal, and poured out drink offerings unto other gods, to provoke me to anger.
30 For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have only done evil before me from their youth: for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith (the) YAHWEH.(KJV)Shame on you, Thummim, thus far your faith contradicts YAHWEH'S testimony!

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

04-29-2001, 11:02 PM

Spying, do you believe that every bad thing that happens is the will of YHWH? ,{I don't}
....Michael

Thummim

04-29-2001, 11:46 PM

Spying, there is no prophecy concerning the destruction of the second temple that I know of, within the tanakh. How do you reconcile the everlasting redemption of Isa.54:7-10? Isa.44:22 sets the captives free (by Cyrus). They are the redeemed of YHWH whose sins have been pardoned. If YHWH is not sufficient to guaranty these verses, how then is (jesus)? He doesn't aid in their resolution either. I wait for the blessing of the JEWish people to be realized. I don't wait on (jesus). I trust in the name of YHWH. Don't think that (jesus), through christianity, has been a blessing to this people. Christians have always surrounded the torment of the JEWish peoples.The inquision, crusades, expulsions, pograms, the holocaust, christians have always been there, but not as friends. Christianity is not a faith for JEWs to depend upon. After almost two millenia, wouldn't it be foolish to expect christianity to become a redeeming faith for these peoples? You ask JEWs to lay their bodies down so that christians can again torment them. You have no idea what your asking of this people. ....Michael

Spying

04-30-2001, 03:29 AM

Hi Thummim,

Again, your belief contradicts scripture. The story of Job teaches that YAHWEH sends both good and bad into our lives depending upon the lesson that He desires that we should learn. YAHWEH is our Heavenly Father, and YAHWEH is very good at fathering. He knows how to love and hate. He knows to reward and punish. He knows how to give life and take it. There is not one thing in your life that happens to you that is contrary to His will for you. So, give honor and due respect to your Heavenly Father, Thummim!

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-30-2001, 07:49 AM

Spying wrote:
The story of Job teaches that YAHWEH sends both good and bad into our lives depending upon the lesson that He desires that we should learn. Spying, what lesson do you think Job was suppose to learn?

Thummim

04-30-2001, 08:00 AM

.....The crusades, the inquisition, expulsions, pograms and the holocaust, these you believe to be the will of YHWH? And every tear shed by a parent for a child ... I know what is written in the tanakh. If these things were written by YHWH, then I would know that they belonged to him. If the tanakh were without error, and the hand of YHWH penned all these words, I would have a desision to make. I can choose between the gods I will worship, choosing the one which I deem to be the most righteous, and follow after his ways. The choices I myself make, say something of my own righteousness. I choose to follow after YHWH Elohenu because he is JEWish and has a lot to do with what it is to be JEWish. I cannot abandon YHWH, for doing so would be a move away from the JEWish people. Nazi's can believe in the biblical god and still justify killing JEWs. My faith is a belief in the {family} of JEWs which includes YHWH as its Eloheem. This is a different way of believing in a god. I cannot assault the name of Yahudah without also assaulting the name of my GD. These two are family. If I were to strike YHWH, the wound would show up on JEWish flesh. The authors can say that David will have a heir to sit on his throne forever. I have to interpret scripture in my own way, to make it so. I also have to interpret YHWH being responsible for evil, in a context that allows me to distinguish his ways from those of unrighteousness. The potter is responsible for his pot. So also, YHWH can claim the sin if he creates the sinner. There are a lot of soft spots in my faith. I'm always having to fill them in to keep on a more righteous path. If a nazi says, "it was my duty to follow orders", is that any less than a christian saying, "I was only following the will of my (Gd)." Blind faith is a bad idea. How we fill in the soft spots of our faith can make the difference between us being either righteous or unrighteous. Once in a while, we have to let the heart judge the matter and follow it. ....Michael

Spying

04-30-2001, 11:03 AM

Hi Thummim,

From my perspective, Thummim, as I have already charged concerning all men that their sin strikes YAHWEH, you have demonstrated to me that you have already struck YAHWEH by your false testimony concerning Him. YAHWEH is the one who has stated that bad things happened to the Jews as a direct result of action taken by YAHWEH. You falsely have said that YAH did not cause such action in order to support and maintain your faith in the Jewish people. Thus, your faith in the Jewish people has brought you into direct conflict against YAH. You look at the whole experience of the suffering of the Jewish people, and you are unwilling to recognize that this suffering is the result of their disobedience, that is, if the Torah is true. This is the indictment of the Old Testament Scriptures. The Jewish people determined these scriptures. You have faith in the Jewish people, how can your faith allow you to then turn around and deny any word that they have determined to be the word of YAHWEH? You not only have borne false witness, but now you are also speaking from both sides of your mouth. You are in denial concerning the requirements of YAHWEH, and you are in denial concerning the disobedience of the Jewish people.

Messiah Yahushua is YAHWEH, and Messiah Yahushua is Jewish. His flesh is the flesh that has directly suffered because of your sin. If it is truly your heartfelt desire that Jews not suffer, then deal with your own sin. Repent! It is that simply. The revolution that you are looking to start can begin with you. You want to see others whole and well, then seek after their wholeness and wellness by believing the truth concerning them and by telling them the truth concerning themselves.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

04-30-2001, 12:39 PM

Spying wrote:
Messiah Yahushua is YAHWEH That is absolutely false.

Nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures does YHUH say: he will become a human he himself will be the prophesied messiah The Hebrew Scriptures clearly indicated that YHUH and the messiah are NOT one and the same.
Jeremiah 30:9
They will serve YHUH their Elohim and David their king, whom I will raise up to them.

Ezekiel 34:24
I YHUH will be their Elohim and my servant David shall rule among them...

Thummim

04-30-2001, 03:04 PM

....O my people, remember what Balak, king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of YHWH. Mi.6:5 --> How shall I curse, whom GD has not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom YHWH hath not defied? Spying, why do you remind me of Balak? You keep asking me to curse this people by the sins that they have already atoned for.

Behold, all they that were incensed against theeshall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war aganst thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. Isa.41:11,12

When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. Isa.43:2

I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. (as you do) Isa.43:25

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee Isa.44:22

But Israel shall be saved inYHWH with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. (forever) Isa.45:17

In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Isa.45:25

They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them Isa.49:10

But thus saith YHWH, even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children. Isa.49:25,26

He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near me. Behold, YHWH Elohenu will help me, who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up. Isa.50:8,9

Therefore the redeemed of YHWH shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. Isa.51:11

For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith YHWH thy redeemer. For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee. neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith YHWH that hath mercy on thee Isa.54:7-10

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgement thou shalt condemn. this is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of me., saith YHWH. Isa.54:17

Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land forever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I YHWH will hasten it in his time. Isa.60:21,22

And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of YHWH: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. Isa.62:12

....Spying, I assure you that (jesus) did not atone for my sins, nor would I allow him to. The suffering of the JEWish people is not the result of their sins, but the result of the sins of those who persecuted them! Christianity has a lot of guilt to atone for, in that it defiled the name of a righteous people, declared so by their own Eloheem. Christianity will not vindicate the innocent who own the tanakh, but it has no problem vindicating itself. There's something in the formula that you don't understand, which tied the hands of YHWH. In it will be seen the transgression that all christians cannot atone for. What it did to YHWH's people, it did to YHWH's name. ....Michael

Spying

05-03-2001, 07:04 AM

Hi Thummim,

You are in denial. Here is what YAHWEH through Moses has said about cursing:
Deut 27:11
11 And Moses charged the people the same day, saying, (KJV)

Deut 27:14
14 And the Levites shall speak, and say unto all the men of Israel with a loud voice, (KJV)

Deut 27:26
26 CURSED BE HE THAT CONFIRMETH NOT ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW TO DO THEM. And all the people shall say, Amen. (KJV)So, your fight is not with me. Is Levi now doing his job as commanded by Moses? Do all Jews say, "Amen", in recognition of this existing curse? If you deny the existence of this curse, then you yourself are cursed:
Deut 29:14-19
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the YAHWEH our ELOHIM, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them: )
18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the YAHWEH our ELOHIM, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: (KJV)Is it a blessing to the Jewish people not to shout to them the truth? You can preach smooth things, Thummim, but you cannot remove these curses except by complete submission and compliance to every word demanded by YAHWEH. If YAHWEH removes these curses from anyone, you will then behold a very serious doer of YAH'S Torah. So, from my perspective, Thummim, you yourself are actually cursing your Jewish brothers by teaching them that they have now been redeemed by YAHWEH without personal repentance evidenced by their complete compliance with the Torah.

Sincerely, Spying

Sandy

05-03-2001, 09:48 AM

The curses were not the only thing proclaimed to Israel that day. They were also told of the blessings.
Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15
1) If you will listen carefully to the voice of YHUH your Elohy, taking heed to do all his commands which I command you this day, YHUH your Elohy shall set you on high above all nations of the earth.
2) And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you, if you will listen to the voice of YHUH your Elohy.

15) And it shall be, if you will not listen to the voice of your Elohy, to take heed to do all his command and his statutes which I am commanding you today, that all these curses shall come on you and overtake you.

Deuteronomy 29:1,4 (28:69)
These are the words of the COVENANT which YHUH commanded Moses to cut with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the COVENANT which he made with them in Horeb.

4) Yet YHUH has not given to you a heart to know and eyes to see and ears to hear until this day.

Deuteronomy 30
1) And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessings and the curse which I have set before you, and among all the nations where YHUH your Elohy shall drive you, shall bring back to your heart these things;
2) and shall turn back to YHUH your Elohy and listen to his voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children with all your heart and with all your soul;
3) then YHUH your Elohy will turn your captivity, and he will have pity on you and will return and gather you from all the nations where YHUH your Elohy has scattered you.
5) And YHUH your Elohy shall bring you into the land which your fathers possessed and you shall inherit it, and he shall do you good and multiply you above your fathers.
6) And YHUH your Elohy will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love YHUH your Elohy with all your heart and with all your soul that you may live.
7) And YHUH your Elohy will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those that hate you, who have persecuted you.
8) And you shall return and obey the voice of YHUH and do all his commands which I Command you today.

15) Behold, I have set before you today life and good and death and evil.

19) I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life that you may live, you and your seed;
20) to love YHUH your Elohy, to listen to his voice and to cling to him. For he is your life and the length of your days, to live in the land which YHUH has sworn to your fathers; to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give it to them. I find it interesting that there is no need for a messiah or saviour for Israel to receive the blessing. According to this their turning back to YHUH with all their heart and soul is the requirement to: Be returned from their captivity and brought back to the land of their fathers
Receive the BLESSINGS
Receive life and good
Be free of the CURSES
Note that when this takes place all the curses now removed from Israel will be placed upon their enemies, on those that hate Israel, who have persecuted Israel, and these enemies of Israel never receiving any of the blessings.

Thummim

05-03-2001, 10:03 AM

....For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith YHWH that hath mercy on thee. Isa.54:9,10

....Note how Isa.54 follows Isa.53. Without Isa.54, there is no reason for Isa.53 to exist. You must denigh them together. If there is no redemption for this people....? Imagion us both coming before YHWH. My sin is that I vindicate YHWH's people and refuse to curse them, your sin is that you don't vindicate them, but curse them by YHWH's own lips. Who do you think wins mercy from the husband of the JEWish people? Balak, I will take my chances, granting redemption to the JEWish people, whither I am damned or blessed for it.

....Note this also, without Urim and Thummim, what authority has Levi? Ezra2:63, Neh.7:65

....If you {curse or allow to be cursed} the people who bear the name of YHWH, don't you also curse the name of YHWH? It's as easy to bless as it is to curse this people, by the words of the tanakh. Why risk cursing those whom YHWH does not want cursed? No matter how hard I would try to push a curse out of my lips, against the JEWish people, it would not come out. I would bite my tongue off first. ....Michael

Spying

05-04-2001, 05:23 AM

Hi Sandy,

The Children of Israel did receive the blessings. In a physical sense they did enter and take possession of the Land. Then, they turned away from YAHWEH, and they lost the Land. Now, they have again a foothold in the Land. So, we could recognize as many do that they are now being blessed by YAHWEH. How long will they be so blessed by YAHWEH? Only as long as they are suffering for YAHWEH. What do I mean by that?

The Jews will only be able to keep the Land through complete reliance and submission to the will of YAHWEH. Alliances with the nations of this world will not keep the Land for them. The only alliance that will do them any good is an alliance with YAHWEH. Failure to cement such an alliance is a mistake that the Children of Israel have made repeatedly in the past. So, the pressure is now on the Jews to do better than their forefathers should they desire to keep the Land. I want them to keep the Land if that is really what they want, but there is a price that continually has to be paid by every generation in order to maintain possession, and that price is perfect obedience to the rules and regulations of YAHWEH.

Now, as a father, I know how difficult it has been to pass my values to my children. What is important to me is not important to them. I desire that you comprehend that with respect to YAHWEH, the Children of Israel, and the Land. YAHWEH is no different than any other parent. He expects obedience, and He expects that you like it. If you don't obey, you are going to be disciplined. That is the real world of YAHWEH, and the Jews know it. So, I am not cursing them by telling them how it is.

Look at it in this fashion. The Jews are the light of the world only in so far as they are doing and it is happening according to the will of YAHWEH. If they are obeying YAHWEH, they are giving light to the world. If they are disobeying YAHWEH, they are also giving light to the world through enduring their punishment. YAHWEH would rather they obey, but believe me, they are going to be a light either way. That is their role under the Law.

There is a better way, but, of course, but I am not certain that there is any desire here to discuss that better way.

Sincerely, Spying

Thummim

05-04-2001, 07:33 AM

....Spying, who are the people whom YHWH will not allow to be cursed? They are imperfect before him. Moses complains about them. {Nu.11:11} Miriam and Aaron think that YHWH should speak through them as he does through Moses, and of course YHWH repremands them. {Nu.12:2, 10} The people murmur against YHWH and he thinks about choosing another peoples for himself. {Nu.14:2, 11-12} Korah incites the people to rebel. {Nu.16:21} This is not a sinless people.

These events define a people whom YHWH will not allow to be cursed. Does YHWH ask that his people be perfect before him? YHWH promises to curse those who curse Abraham and his seed and to bless those who bless Abraham and his seed. It is an imperfect people whom YHWH refuses to allow, to be cursed by Balak. Doesn't this show that the curse does not work the way that you think it does? So you can be imperfect to the point of YHWH wanting to distroy you and YHWH still refuses to curse them?. The idea of atonement presupposes that the people will transgress YHWH's mitzvot. YHWH does not curse his people even in the face of such transgressions as listed above. We must conclude that the curse is given as much as a threat to YHWH's people to keep them in line. Isn't this what any good father does? Rather than beating on his children all the time, the father threatens them with his authority. Isn't this what you do to your own children?

A promise not to be angry forever with his people requires YHWH to have a really deep love of them. If I curse your children because they have offended you, would you be pleased? Wouldn't your reaction be to curse me, rather than to bless me? I've told you that you can also bless YHWH's people by the tanakh. Why don't you try it? It doesn't require much effort to do so. ....Michael

Sandy

05-04-2001, 09:38 AM

Spying, it is YHUH himself who brings about the accomplishment of his will between the children of Israel and himself.

YHUH says: I will put my Torah in their inward parts and I will write it on their hearts
(Jeremiah 31:33)
I will give them one heart and one pathway
(Jeremiah 32:39)
I will put my fear in their heart that the will not depart from me
(Jeremiah 32:40)
I will give to them one heart
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
I will put a new spirit within them
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
I will give them a heart of flesh
(Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26)
And why does YHUH do these things?
So that they may walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them
(Ezekiel 11:20)

And cause you to walk in my statutes and keep my judgments and do them
(Ezekiel 36:27)

YHUH says, As I have brought all that great evil on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I spoke to them.
(Jeremiah 32:42)

Spying

05-26-2001, 08:16 AM

Hi Sandy,

I really like your last post. It emphatically relates that YAHWEH, HIMSELF, will do a great work. How does YAHWEH go about accomplishing the work that you have described in your post? Men have arms and hands with which we do our work. YAHWEH is no different. HE works with a strong right arm and hand. I submit to all that the strong right arm and hand of YAHWEH is Messiah Yahushua. Messiah's activity is the spiritual work of YAHWEH. This activity is glorious. This activity gives off light to lighten the world:
Isa 40:4-5
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of (the) YAHWEH shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of (the) YAHWEH hath spoken it. (KJV)

Isa 40:9-10
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your ELOHIM!
10 Behold, (the) ADONAI ELOHIM will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (KJV)

John 14:10-12
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (KJV)

Isa 59:16
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. (KJV)

Isa 53:1-3
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of (the) YAHWEH revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (KJV)

Isa 63:2-5
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance (the Cross) is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. (KJV)

Ps 98:1-3
1 O sing unto (the) YAHWEH a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory. 2 (The) YAHWEH hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our ELOHIM. (KJV)

Jer 21:5
5 And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath. (KJV)

Ezek 20:32-35
32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.
33 As I live, saith the ADONAI ELOHIM, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. (KJV)Saying:
John 19:28
28 ..... I THIRST. (KJV)"Thirst" in a spiritual sense is the inability to perform righteousness. At this point in his pleading with us, ADONAI ELOHIM, is transferring the flag. We have a choice in our response. We can through our sin continue to give him vinegar to drink:
John 19:29
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. (KJV)Or we can acknowledge and repent of our sin and abolish the opportunity for it to be said concerning any of us:
Ezek 18:2
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (KJV)Surely, we have all sinned and the Son of Man's teeth have been set on edge. This must not continue to be so in spiritual Israel. This is the truth of it. This is how it is:
Ezek 18:3-4
3 As I live, saith the ADONAI ELOHIM, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (KJV)And we all have died through the glorious work of Messiah Yahushua. Thank you, YAHWEH, for the opportunity to perform your righteousness that we now have in You!

Sincerely, Spying