Is all Israel saved? (Romans 11:26)

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

Fundamental to the faith of the Tzaddikim is our belief that the whole of mankind did sacrifice or slay Messiah Yahushua through their sin. This was accomplished according to the requirements of the Torah of Moses. According to the administration of this Torah (Messiah died according to the Scriptures, 1 Corinthians 15:3), it is also the belief of the Tzaddikim that YAH was able through Messiah to turn this sacrifice back upon mankind itself. While it is not presently my purpose to write about the mechanics of how this all occurred, it is sufficient to note that the death of this present world did indeed spiritually occur in the death of Messiah. The Apostle Paul understood that he himself was crucified with Messiah (Galatians 2:20), and he further intimates that the world itself is also crucified through the cross of Messiah (Galatians 6:14). Of course, this crucifixion of the world also leads to the death of the world (2 Corinthians 5:14). Believe us, Messiah did not die so that this sinful world could continue to live as is commonly supposed. Otherwise, how could Paul write and speak about these things as actually happening? Looking around with our physical eyes, we see a world that appears to be very much alive, so what is Paul getting at? According to the perspective of YAH, in Messiah this world is dead. This world died with Messiah. Accordingly, this world has already been judged and executed according to the inner workings of the Torah (John 12:31-32). These are spiritual happenings which must be viewed and understood with spiritual and not physical eyes. Whose eyes? You and I have physical eyes. So, surely not our eyes! In Paul's thinking the only human who is presently alive is Messiah (Romans 6:6-8, Galatians 2:20). Therefore, if we as physical men begin once again to understand these things, is this not because we possess the mind and eyes of Messiah through whom we live and think and see (1 Corinthians 2:12-16)? Of course, this living and thinking and seeing is spiritual. I am not talking about doing these things in the physical.

So, if the whole world is dead in Messiah Yahushua, and it is, then this whole world is also a dead body, it is not? Yes!!! In the eyes of YAH this physical world is indeed a dead body, and in the eyes of YAH, there is nothing more defiling than a dead body. Even mankind itself has a fear and aversion to corpses. We don't like them lying around, do we? How long do you yourself think that YAH will tolerate a dead body lying around? One day? Two days? Three days? What would you do if you were YAH, and you were confronted with a decomposing dead body? What action would you take? You might bury it if you could somehow tolerate the stench, wouldn't you? How long has it been since all of mankind died with Messiah? It's been about two days, hasn't it (a day is like a thousand years)? Do you think that the stench of this dead rotting world is beginning to invade the nostrils of YAH? Fellows, we are in trouble. Let me tell you what I would do with a decomposing dead body. I would dump a bunch of gas on it and lite it afire, and I don't believe that YAH's intentions are much different:

1 Cor 3:13
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(KJV)

Heb 6:8
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (KJV)

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the YAHWEH will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (KJV)

Is that your fate, Brothers and Sisters (Romans 7:24)?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

So, if you are not to be burned up, then you must consider yourselves saved. How were you saved from the abominable body of death which is this world? And please don't anyone tell me that you were saved by the substitutional death of Messiah Yahushua. If Messiah substitutionally died for you, then why must you be buried in baptism (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4)? Do we not bury only the dead? Or do some also bury the living? Why bother with the burial of baptism if we did not die? You must be buried in baptism because you did die with Messiah, and you know what, we are saved by that burial, aren't we (1 Peter 3:21)?

So, it does appear that this world was put to death by the very death which the world gave to Messiah, and it does appear that some have been saved from that very death, and it does appear that some are now presently again being saved from that very death. Those being saved are called the Elect. The Elect are the ones being called forth from the dead body, which is this world, to receive the life which is in Messiah Yahushua. As the death of the world occurred in Messiah so also does the life of the world occur in Messiah. He is the Head of the Elect, the Firstborn from the dead. The Elect were chosen to receive this life through the spirit of Messiah which is also freely given to many of us. This spirit was poured out upon all flesh, and in due time, all in the dead body will come to life through that spirit, but for the time being, only the Elect are given opportunity to come to life in Messiah. We come from all races. We come from all nations. We seek each other out as long lost friends. For the most part, we appear to be Gentiles, but we have many Jewish brothers and sisters who cannot presently see who we really are. In due time, they will.

Have you ever wondered why you were chosen as a part of the Elect?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

I know I have wondered, but I no longer wonder! We have been saved because YAHWEH keeps His promises. What promises? Consider these:

Gen 17:4-8
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be an ELOHIM unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their ELOHIM.
(KJV)

Abraham was promised that he would be the father of many nations. Abraham was also promised that Canaan would be his everlasting possession. Notice that the Land was also promised to the Seed as a everlasting possession. We are informed by the Apostle Paul as to the identify of this Seed. Paul categorically states that the Seed is Messiah (Galatians 3:16). He further states that all those who are baptized into Messiah become also Abraham's Seed (Galatians 3:27-29) because all who are baptized into Messiah belong to him. We have already seen how those who are baptized into Messiah are baptized into His death. Many of these believers come from the nations (Matthew 28:19-20). They need not be Jewish. They can be Gentiles.

Indeed, if you are Jewish by race, you should not automatically be considered the Seed. Both Paul and Messiah make arguments along these lines. Messiah clearly taught the Jews that if they should desire to claim Abraham as their father, then they must of necessity do the deeds of Abraham (John 8:39-40). Similarly, Paul taught that recognizably physical Israel and physical Ishmael and physical Esau are not necessarily the Seed (Romans 4:16, Romans 9:6-13). They may very well be descendants of Abraham, but they are not of the Seed. According to Paul, only the children of the promise are of the Seed. Therefore, Paul clearly teaches that not all physical Israel is of spiritual Israel:

Rom 9:6-7
6 Not as though the word of ELOHIM hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (KJV)

Those Jews who are honest will not dismiss these clear teachings of Paul and Messiah. Similarly, Gentiles who are honest should recognize who it is that does now own the Land of Canaan: Abraham, Messiah, and all the Elect both Jews and Gentiles who belong to Messiah. The Land does not belong to those Jews who now live in it and claim it as their own apart from Messiah.

So, when Paul states in Romans 11 "and so all Israel shall be saved", to whom does he refer? Does he refer to the saving of physical Israel or to the Israel of promise?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

Obviously, you should by now know where I stand on this issue. When Paul states that "all Israel shall be saved", he is referring to the Israel of promise. This is why it is necessary that the true Gospel be taught and preached to all nations because the Israel of promise (both Jew and Gentile) can be found to reside in all the nations. The vast majority of the Elect like myself (a gentile) are lost sheep of the House of Israel. Our parents were carried away into captivity for their Sabbath breaking and idolatry, and any identity or association that we had with YAHWEH was completely lost. I myself was as the blind, unseeing, totally ignorant of my origins or the ways of YAH. Then YAH according to His manifold promises did gather me out of this world through Messiah in order that I might dwell with them and learn their thoughts and ways. They are my parents, and I hope that I am honoring them as they desire.

I have many Brothers and Sisters, and if you are reading these posts, you are probably one of them. Let me tell you how it has been with you. Your soul has developed an itch which you cannot quite reach to scratch. Regardless of whether you were religious or irreligious in the past, you now sense that you need to do more or become more than what you were. Maybe you are not that far as yet. Perhaps, you are just now beginning to feel the heat that YAH is sending your way to challenge your current beliefs. That is good. Accept the challenge. Defend for all your worth. You will do nothing but learn until eventually you awaken to see your slavery to sin in the dead corpse which is this world (Messiah crucified). Then you will in haste leave Egypt and follow Messiah. You will, like Abraham, get up out of your father's house (Satan, the dead corpse) and go to and dwell in the Land (Messiah) that YAH will show you. You are a recipient of the promises through Messiah Yahushua.

No doubt many of you have been drawn or have gravitated toward Judaism thus far in your life. You feel a kinship towards the Jews that you just cannot explain. Understand, Brothers and Sisters, that the spirit that is drawing you toward Messiah is a Jewish spirit. Messiah is Jewish. The things that are important to him are going to become important to you. You are his lost sheep. He is seeking and finding you, and he is bringing each of us into his fold, his house. Remember that all the promises of YAH have their fulfillment in Messiah. You owe your allegiance to him and to him alone. Listen to his voice and follow him.

Consider these promises:

Deut 30:1-8
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the YAHWEH, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. (KJV)

Have these things been happening to you in your life? They are happening with the Tzaddikim.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

So, when will all Israel be saved? All Israel is saved because the true Gospel has been preached to all nations. This brings about the fullness of Israel. Physical Israel is again a nation so the Gospel of YAHWEH can again now come to her. In due time this will happen, but for now the Gospel must go forth to the Lost Sheep among the nations so that the natural branches which were also broken off through the death of Messiah Yahushua have opportunity to again be made jealous of the mercy shown to the Gentiles. Remember: You have received mercy in order to teach all nations to become disciples of Messiah. All nations include physical Israel. So the Elect, at first primarily Gentiles, will teach physical Israel (Judaism) the way of YAHWEH and then all Israel will have been saved. Think about it. That is an extraordinary happening.

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Shalom,

Ok, I must admit to a bit of trepidation as I begin my first real post to this forum. Why? I really don't know. I have been interested in understanding your point of view for a while now. Yet I am at such a busy time in my life that I am not sure I have the time or resources to do so properly and with intellectual integrity. I will just have to do the best I can.

Let's start at the begining.

You wrote:

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

Fundamental to the faith of the Tzaddikim is our belief that the whole of mankind did sacrifice or slay Messiah Yahushua through their sin.


Let's say for the sake of understanding that I disagree with this premiss. I am not so sure that I can take as a given that ALL of mankind offered Yeshua as a sacrifice.

No one that I know was around to slay anyone either. :)

Please convince me otherwise.

With hesitant anticipation,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Would you let me get away with saying that I'll try? :) I think in a certain fashion that you have taken a giant step with your post. I know that YAH is pleased. Those who pursue after truth and wisdom often find themselves short of time. After awhile there is no time for anything but the pursuit of righteousness once truth and wisdom are found. Those who stand up for all three often do so with great trepidation.

Do you feel an obligation to love YAH your ELOHIM with all your soul, all your heart, and all you might? Does this commandment have meaning for you?

Deut 6:4-5
4 Hear, O Israel: The YAHWEH our ELOHIM is one YAHWEH:
5 And thou shalt love the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (KJV)
How about these commandments? Do you with a whole heart pursue these requirements?

Deut 10:12
12 And now, Israel, what doth the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM require of thee, but to fear the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thy heart and with all thy soul. (KJV)
I really don't have to ask, Simpleman. I know that you do. I also know that you have failed to live up to these commandments in your life. These commandments do not say, "You must try." You are told what to do and you are expected to do it. So, just exactly how far do you carry your fear, your service, your walk, your love of YAH? The Apostle John states in no uncertain terms just exactly what it means to love YAH:

I Jn 5:3
3 For this is the love of ELOHIM, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.(KJV)
Do you limit your love toward YAH? Do you try :) to keep all of HIS commandments? What do you do when you fail?

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Spying,

I will attempt (is that better than to try? :) ) to get to the heart of your questions.

I fail almost every day in my feeble attempt to live up to all of the comandments of our Father(mostly on inside issues of the mind). I have done in the past many things that would be considered as grevious sin in the eyes of other people as well as my Father. I have repented and do so almost daily for the multitude of things I have done and still do that are unpleasing to my Father. The Father is faithful to forgive me and lead me into righteousness. I believe that He will continue with me until the end. I will continue to mature and grow to be more like Him in word and deed. Praise Yahweh!!

As to ALWAYS trying :) my best. I don't even do that.

I hope that I have answered in a manner that will help you to answer my original question.

In Messiah,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Good morning and happy Sabbath to you and your fine family. Give your kids a hug for me and tell them it is from Spying.

How did you like Bratu's last response to me? There appears to be a difference between your response and his, but bottom line both say practically the same thing. Bratu is going to disobey YAH and live, and Simpleman is going to disobey YAH and live. Bratu lives because he doesn't believe in the power of YAH; Simpleman lives because he believes in the faithfulness of YAH. If YAH is faithful and powerful, why does HE not remain true to HIS word by allowing the both of you to yet live?

Does not YAH say that the soul who sins shall die?
Ezek 18:20-21
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(KJV)YAH demands and expects obedience like any parent. YAH hears alot of excuses, but does HE accept them? Not if YAH is faithful to HIS word!

YAH says through Moses:
Deut 8:1-3
1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the YAHWEH sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)If this is the case, and it is, should we not get serious about every word, that is, if, indeed, YAH is faithful?

Sincerely, Spying?

[simpleman]

I was working on this for a while. I was comming to post it when I came here and found your response to my last post. I hope that this will answer your question about how I will continue to live.

Spying,

I have been giving some thought to your ideas. I have some thoughts to share. I hope they will make you think a bit if nothing else. As I said, I do not have much free time right now so I am sure that you can find further verses that apply. :)

First I want to address the Passover sacrifice. As we know, the original Passover happened as the event allowing the people to leave Egypt. Most people believe that Egypt represents this world’s system. I would agree with that. I do not see the Passover dealing with sin as much as freedom from sin. Anyway, a man, let’s call him spying, would select a lamb, perfect of course. This lamb would live with his family for a time and then spying would take the lamb and sacrifice it. The family’s job was to consume the lamb completely. Let’s look at Yeshua. He is called Yahweh’s lamb.

John 1
36And looking at Yeshua as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of Elohim!"

I agree that He was our perfect Passover sacrifice but our job is to consume Him. Yahweh’s lamb was sacrificed by Yahweh. Yeshua told people that unless they ate His flesh and drank His blood that they would have no part of Him. This would also seem to go along with the “last supper” thing. Also with this part of Isaiah:

Isaiah 53
10Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the of Yahweh shall prosper in His hand.

The concept of consuming a sacrifice is not only with Passover. I am sure you will see the similarities between this command and the Passover comands.

Exodus 29
32Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 33They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. 34And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.

I believe that Yeshua was filling more than one sacrifice on the cross. Notice that the verse says, “When You make His soul an offering for sin,” I believe that Yeshua fulfilled the sin offerings on the cross too.




Exodus 30
10And Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement; once a year he shall make atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most holy to Yahweh."


I am sure that you know how the high priest would make atonement for the unintentional sins of the people. Yeshua is our high priest. From the cross He said to forgive them for they know not what they do. This is laid out pretty well in Hebrews chapter 10. Anyway, as well as Yahweh sacrificing His Passover lamb, Yeshua, as high priest, also made the atonement sacrifice at this time.

John 10
18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."


The other type of sacrifice for sin was to be made by each individual that sinned. I believe that this is the place where we must realize that it was us and our sin that held Yeshua to the cross too.

Leviticus 4
22"When a ruler has sinned, and done something unintentionally against any of the commandments of Yahweh his Elohim in anything which should not be done, and is guilty, 23or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a male without blemish. 24And he shall lay his hand on the head of the goat, and kill it at the place where they kill the burnt offering before Yahweh. It is a sin offering.

Leviticus 5
5"And it shall be, when he is guilty in any of these matters, that he shall confess that he has sinned in that thing; 6and he shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin.
7"If he is not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring to Yahweh, for his trespass which he has committed, two turtledoves or two young pigeons: one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering.

Thus, in a sense, I agree with you that we sacrificed Yeshua. But only if we recognize our sin and let Him be our sacrifice. Not all of mankind has done or will do so. We all have freedom from this world by Yahweh’s Passover sacrifice if we consume it. We all have atonement by Yeshua’s sacrifice if we identify with it and accept/understand it. We will only receive forgiveness for our intentional sins as we repent and realize that our sin put our Savior on the cross.

I am sure that I missed some things and this is just a basic outline. I believe you are literate enough in Scripture to fill in my gaps. In fact right now I am thinking about and wondering with which sacrifice we died with Him. I am also fairly sure that I have something wrong. I usually find out years later that I do. :) At least this will make for some fine conversation and maybe give you something to think about. Many people only recognize the Atonement part, that Yeshua gave Himself. You guys are the first I have seen that use the Passover part but use it in the way of the personal intentional sin offering yet want to make it for everyone. Even if they never recognize their sin...?


Shalom,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Thank you for being willing to place your thoughts on paper so that others can examine them.

It is written that Messiah Yahushua is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 10:4). After all, is this not his stated goal?:
Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)We all know what it means to have goals. We all know what it means to work towards a goal. If a person publicly declares a goal, do we allow them to claim that they have reached their goal if they have in any fashion changed the terms of the goal prior to reaching it. Not at all. That is not being honest. That is not being fair to all those who have honestly stuck to the terms and conditions of their goals and have worked consistently to attain their goals no matter the difficulty. Messiah knew all of that when he stated his goal. Messiah knew that the terms of the goal should not be changed until the goal is reached. I mean this issue really revolves around a bottom line condition of the Law itself. There exists a fundamental requirement of the Law that is stated at least twice in the Law for emphasis:
Deut 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the YAHWEH your ELOHIM which I command you.(KJV)

Deut 12:32
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)Now, I am very pleased that you have gone to the effort in your personal studies to take the time to look at some of the various issues that Messiah must have encountered as he himself contemplated bringing about the various circumstances in which he could claim that the Law had been fulfilled. There do exist a lot of them. When you begin to look at the various and sometimes conflicting animal sacrifices, you begin to see the enormous complexity of Messiah's goal to fulfill the Law.

When we are asked to judge whether or not someone has attained their stated goal, what should we properly do? We should take a good look at all the terms of the goal before we declare a winner, shouldn't we? Messiah doesn't expect any preferential treatment. It is as simple as this: <B>Examine the terms and see if he actually accomplished them?</b>The Book of Hebrews was written because this examination and scrutiny was occurring during the time of the Apostles. As a Jew, I could very simply look at the Law and at the Christian claim that Messiah was a priest and reach the conclusion that Messiah had no business being a priest because Messiah was not a Levite of the House of Aaron. Well, if the Christians should claim that Yahushua was a priest, and they do, then somebody has changed the rules, haven't they? If they have changed the rules, then I have no need or compulsion to take any of their claims seriously, do I? So, it is very important, Simpleman, that we look at the requirements instead of simply dismissing them, and especially, if we are to consider the needs of our Jewish brethren, we need to look and learn how to explain.

Consider the Passover Lamb. Paul in writing to both Jews and Gentiles indicates that Messiah is the Passover Lamb of both:
1 Cor 5:7
7 ........... For even Messiah <b>our</b> passover is sacrificed for us: (KJV)Now, does Paul by this statement mean to imply to all of us that Messiah is an actual physical lamb. We all know better than that. We all must recognize and state the obvious here, that Paul in his thinking is operating on a spiritual level, a notch above the physical. Messiah could not physically be a Passover Lamb because Messiah was a man and not an animal. In the same manner, Messiah could not be a priest because he was of the tribe of Judah and not a physical Levite. Yet, we all accept sheepishly that Messiah was a priest; eventhough, we have no real awareness of how Messiah could possibly be a priest.

So, Simpleman, in no uncertain terms, here is what the Torah requires concerning the slaying of the Passover Lamb:
Exod 12:3-6
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:.......
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and <B>the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel</b> shall kill it in the evening. (KJV)In order for the Torah to receive its fulfillment through Messiah, then somehow we must be able to prove how the whole assembly of Israel killed Messiah. The Law does not allow it to happen any other way.

Now, I have indicated on this thread that I consider myself to be a member of physical Israel; eventhough, I cannot prove my physical roots. It is not necessary that I prove those roots. I consider myself first and foremost to be a spiritual Israelite through Messiah Yahushua. He is the spiritual Passover Lamb, and I am a spiritual Israelite who did slay his lamb at the proper time and in the proper manner according to the requirements of the Law.

Now, you can say to me: "Spying, Messiah died two thousand years ago. You are dreaming. How could you possibly have been there?" If you are concentrating on the physical, then there is no way I could have been there, but there is a spiritual way I was there, and so were you. Do you think it possible?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Can someone please explain to me what the Passover has to do with sin (or the sins of the world)?

<font color=navy>John 1:29
On the next day, John sees Jesus coming toward him, and said, Behold! The Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.</font>

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Brothers and Sisters,

So, if you are not to be burned up, then you must consider yourselves saved. How were you saved from the abominable body of death which is this world? And please don't anyone tell me that you were saved by the substitutional death of Messiah Yahushua. If Messiah substitutionally died for you, then why must you be buried in baptism (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-4)? Do we not bury only the dead? Or do some also bury the living? Why bother with the burial of baptism if we did not die? You must be buried in baptism because you did die with Messiah, and you know what, we are saved by that burial, aren't we (1 Peter 3:21)?
=snip=
Sincerely, Spying

<font color=green>Sandy writes:
What is said in 1 Peter 3:21 is just the opposite of what happens with Noah and the ark.

What is baptism? Is it not immersion? Immersion is to to be made fully wet or totally submerged.

1 Peter 3
20) ...in the days of Noah having prepared an ark in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water
21) which figure now also saves us, IMMERSION

In Genesis 6-9 Noah and his family were saved from the water by residing in the ark which YHUH told Noah to make.
[list=1]
Was Noah and his family submerged or covered by the water?
Wasn't Noah and his family kept totally out of the water and remained completely dry because YHUH shut them up in the ark?
Isn't being kept out of the water and staying completely dry the opposite of being submerged (baptized/immersed) in water and made totally wet?
Which one saved Noah and his family: The ark or the water?
If Noah and his family were saved by the ark (FROM the water) and everyone submerged in the water (baptized) was NOT saved but drowned (destroyed) isn't Peter's statement a complete contradiction of what actually took place?
Think about it. The people who were submerged (baptized) were destroyed and the ones kept out of the water were saved.</font>

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Simpleman,

Good morning and happy Sabbath to you and your fine family. Give your kids a hug for me and tell them it is from Spying.

How did you like Bratu's last response to me? There appears to be a difference between your response and his, but bottom line both say practically the same thing. Bratu is going to disobey YAH and live, and Simpleman is going to disobey YAH and live. Bratu lives because he doesn't believe in the power of YAH; Simpleman lives because he believes in the faithfulness of YAH. If YAH is faithful and powerful, why does HE not remain true to HIS word by allowing the both of you to yet live?

Does not YAH say that the soul who sins shall die?
Ezek 18:20-21
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(KJV)YAH demands and expects obedience like any parent. YAH hears alot of excuses, but does HE accept them? Not if YAH is faithful to HIS word!

YAH says through Moses:
Deut 8:1-3
1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the YAHWEH sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the YAHWEH doth man live. (KJV)If this is the case, and it is, should we not get serious about every word, that is, if, indeed, YAH is faithful?

Sincerely, Spying?
<font color=green>Sandy writes:
How do you justify that with the deeds of king David? Not only did he commit adultery with Bathsheba but he conspired to have her husband placed in a situation where he would be killed. The innocent child that was born out of that adultery was struck by YHUH and it died on the seventh day.
Leviticus 20:10
A man who commits adultery with a man's wife, who commits adultery with the wife of a neighbor, the adulterer and the adulteress are surely to be put to death.

2 Samuel 11
2) And it happened at evening time, David rose up from his bed and walked up and down on the roof of the king's house, and he saw from the roof a woman bathing and the woman was very good of form.
3) And David sent and asked about the woman, and one said, Is this not Bathsheba...the wife of Uriah the Hittite?
4) And David sent messengers to summon her, and she came to him and he lay with her...
5) And the woman conceived, and sent, and told David...
14) And in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab...
15) And he wrote in the letter saying, Place Uriah in the front of the strongest fighting and withdraw from him that he may be struck and die.
17) ...And Uriah the Hittite died.
18) And Joab sent and told David...
26) And Uriah's wife heard that her husband Uriah was dead, and she mourned for her husband, and the mourning time passed by and David sent and gathered her to his house; and she became his wife and bore a son to him. And the thing which David had done was evil in the eyes of YHUH.

What did YHUH do to David and Bathsheba? Did He do according to His own instructions/Torah concerning adultery and murder? NO! He did not. What did YHUH say and do?
2 Samuel 12
13) And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against YHUH, and Nathan said to David, YHUH has also put away your sin; you shall not die.
14) Only because you have made the enemies of YHUH scorn by this thing, also the son who shall be born to you shall surely die.
15) ...and YHUH struck the boy whom the wife of Uriah had borne to David and it became sick.
18) And on the seventh day the boy died...
24) And David comforted his wife Bathsheba and went in to her and lay with her, and she bore a son and he called his name Solomon, and YHUH loved him.

So David and Bethsheba were not killed according to the command, but the innocent child was struck and died and David was allowed to have Bethsheba for his wife.</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Boy, my e-mail alarm sure has been sounding telling me that someone has responded to my thread! Thank you for the replies and the good questions.

Allow me to give you my personal impression of the Lamb, but before I do please be aware that the Tzaddikim take John's designation of Messiah as the Lamb of ELOHIM very seriously. We truly believe that this Lamb does take away the sin of the world. We do not believe as the world does teach that the Lamb dies to remove the penalty of sin. YAH is not concerned about your penalty, but HE is concerned about removing your sin. If your sin is truly removed, it is gone. This has happened and is happening in the lives of the Tzaddikim.

As you should know by now, I view the sacrifices in a symbolic or spiritual sense with the focus on Messiah Yahushua. The Passover Lamb is unique because it must be slain before the Children of Israel could commence to leave Egypt. Egypt in my thinking is a picture or shadow of this world. It is very difficult to be born into this world without becoming a slave to the world. We are first enticed by our flesh, and then most of us give ourselves over to sin. Having sinned, we find ourselves in slavery to sin powerless to change our condition. Slowly, we find ourselves also submitting to the ways of this world rather than the ways of YAHWEH. Something momentous and wonderful must happen before we have deliverance from our flesh and all the allurements of this world. This wonderful happening is the death of the Lamb.

What must die in you, Sandy, before you have freedom from sin? The first thing that must perish is your submissive attitude. You must be willing to make a complete break with your sin. You must be willing to defiantly stand against your sin and the ways of this world. You must believe that you can win, that you can triumph over your sinful self. In order words, Sandy, the little lamb in you must die.

What convinces you of your death? For me it was the death of Messiah. Looking at his death, I knew that he died according to the Law. He died for me, but he did not die in my stead. That is an abomination according to the scriptures that the innocent should suffer in the place of the guilty. Besides how would the death of anyone else in my stead help me to escape Egypt and the slavery of my sin? If I am a slave to sin, someone else does not need to die. The slave to sin needs to die. The sinner needs to die. So, Messiah through sacrifice was able to bring about my lawful death through a behind the scenes operation of the Law which is occurring spiritually that Messiah could see and understand. This world has absolutely no awareness of this operation. I have a hope that you also will see and understand what is truly going on in Messiah's death.

When YAHWEH sees the death of the sinner in the blood of the Lamb, YAH passes over your former life of sin, and you become aware that you better not tarry any longer in Egypt. Hope this has been helpful.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Hi Spying
I hope you don't find me too much of a pest, but I am overflowing with questions.

I understand what you are saying, but I do not see the verification of what you are saying in the Hebrew Scriptures.

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Thank you again for all your good questions and statements.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump, does it not? If the whole lump is leavened save for just a speck, in Noah's and his family's case this speck was just eight people, how would you go about ensuring that they might remain unleavened if you were YAHWEH? If the whole world is evil except for eight persons, how would you go about saving the eight? In this particular case, the eight were saved through water. That water immersed the whole unleavened lump (the world), and YAHWEH, thereby, saved Noah and his family. Water baptism does the same for us today. Through baptism you bury your dead sinful self, and this is for certain, if you accomplish that burial, there is no need for YAHWEH HIMSELF to then turn around and again cleanse HIS earth of your rotting, stinking corpse. Have you been baptized for the remission of your sins, Sandy?

Again, I hope that this has been helpful.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

I am sorry Spying, but to me that is still pretty much the basis of Christian doctrine.

The Scriptures say that the Israelites were delivered from their bondage (hard labor) not their sins.
Genesis 15
12) And it happened as the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell on Abram; and behold, a terror of great darkness fell on him.
13) And he (YHUH) said to to Abram, You must surely know that your seed shall be a sojourner in a land not theirs; and they shall serve them and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14) and I also will judge that nation whom they shall serve...

Exodus 1
13)And Egypt made the sons of Israel to serve with harshness.
14) And they made their lives bitter by bondage/hard work...

Exodus 2
23) ...and the sons of Israel groaned from the hard labor and their cry went up to Elohim from their bondage.
24) And Elohim heard their groaning and Elohim remembered his Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Exodus 6
5) And I also have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, whom the Egyptians have in bondage and I have remembered my Covenant.
6) Therefore, say to the sons of Israel, I am YHUH and I will bring you out from under the burdens of Egypt and will deliver you from their slavery. And I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.

Exodus 13:14
And it shall be, when your son asks you in the future, saying, What is this? You shall say to him, YHUH brought us out from Egypt by the might of his hand, from the house of bondage.

Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6
I am YHUH your Elohy, who has brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deuteronomy 6:12
You shall be on guard that you not forget YHUH who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Deuteronomy 26
5) And you shall speak and say before YHUH your Elohy, My father was a perishing Aramiy (Aramean), and he went down to Egypt with few men and lived there and became a nation there; great, mighty and many.
6) And the Egyptians dealt ill with us and afflicted us and put hard bondage on us.
7) And we cried to YHUH the Elohy of our forefathers, and YHUH heard our voice and saw our affliction and our labor and our oppression.
8) And YHUH brought us out from Egypt by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and by great terribleness, with signs and with wonders.
9) And he has brought us to this place and has given to us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey.
10) And now, behold, I have brought in the first fruits of the ground which YHUH has given me. And you shall place it before YHUH your Elohy and bow yourself before YHUH your Elohy.
11) And rejoice in all the good which YHUH your elohy has given to you and to your house, and the Levite and the sojourner who is in your midst.
I see nothing here concerning or related to sin. The Passover is not related to the sins of Israel, but to the killing of the firstborn of Egypt. The blood of the Passover animal placed on the door posts was a sign for the angel of YHUH to passover that dwelling place.
Exodus 12
26) And it shall be, when your sons say to you, what is this service to you?
27) Then you shall say, It is the slaughter of the Passover to YHUH, who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt, when he struck Egypt and he delivered our houses...
I do not see the bondage of Israel in Egypt as a representation of sin.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

Thank you again for all your good questions and statements.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump, does it not? If the whole lump is leavened save for just a speck, in Noah's and his family's case this speck was just eight people, how would you go about ensuring that they might remain unleavened if you were YAHWEH? If the whole world is evil except for eight persons, how would you go about saving the eight? In this particular case, the eight were saved through water. That water immersed the whole unleavened lump (the world), and YAHWEH, thereby, saved Noah and his family. Water baptism does the same for us today. Through baptism you bury your dead sinful self, and this is for certain, if you accomplish that burial, there is no need for YAHWEH HIMSELF to then turn around and again cleanse HIS earth of your rotting, stinking corpse. Have you been baptized for the remission of your sins, Sandy?

Again, I hope that this has been helpful.

Sincerely, Spying

<font color=green>
YHUH does not say that he is destroying the whole world so that he will not have to worry about Noah and his family being corrupted. He said he is destroying all flesh on the earth because the sons of the elohim were corrupting (or ruining) his creation.

Genesis 6
1) And it came about that the adam began to multiply on the surface of the earth and daughters were born to them.
2) And the sons of the elohim saw them, the daughers of the adam that they were good and they took for themselves wives from all those whom they chose.
4) The nephilim were on the earth in those days. And also after when the sons of the elohim came in to the daughters of the adam and bore to them, they were the powerful ones (or warriors)...
5) And YHUH saw that the evil of the adam was great on the earth...
6) And YHUH repented that he had made the adam on the earth...
7) And YHUH said, I will wipe out the adam whom I have created from the surface of the earth, from adam to animal to creeping thing and to the birds of the heavens...
8) but Noah found grace in the eyes of YHUH.
9) ...Noah, an ish (Noah is an ish, not an adam), who had been upright and perfect in his generations (meanining he was not a mixed offspring born from the sons of the elohim mating with the daughters of the adam)...
If, as you say, YHUH destroyed the whole evil world to save the eight from evilness, then he failed. What did Noah do? He planted a vineyard (although I do not know were he obtained the seed or the plants for this vineyard) and drank the wine and became drunk. His son Ham saw his father in a compromised situation while in a drunken stupor and told his brothers about it. When Noah sobered up and was made aware of what took place he cursed his son Ham (Genesis 9:20-25). So it didn't take long for evilness to rear it ugly head.

And what about Sodom and Gomorrah. The evilness of that place was so bad that YHUH destroyed them, saving only Lot and his two daughters, who by the way committed incest with their father after getting him drunk (Genesis 19:30-38).</font>

[Sandy]

Hi Spying,
You asked me if I have been baptized for the remission of my sins?

The answer is yes, but if I had to do it over again I would not.

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Everything is a matter of perspective. I can very easily look at the Flood and conclude that YAHWEH saved Noah and his family by destroying the world. I arrived at this conclusion because it did appear to me that this is exactly what YAH did to this world through the Cross of Messiah. The whole world died with Messiah and in the process only the Elect are saved through that death, and I am blessed to be one of the Elect. Without the destruction of my sinful self, I would have no hope of overcoming. Does this mean that I am now perfect or that I have now completely overcome. No, it does not, but it does mean that I believe that I will completely overcome because this sinful world was completely destroyed in the death of Messiah. So, you see, Sandy, I have no trouble believing in a spiritual world and system which others like yourself cannot see. To you it is make-believe; to me it is the real world.

I want you to know again that you are welcome here. Your questions and challenges insure that we will always have a full plate of food in front of us. Everything important has not been detailed in the Hebrew Scriptures; otherwise, why would YAHWEH instruct Moses concerning the coming of the Prophet in this manner?:
Deut 18:18-19
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (KJV)Because you do not believe that Messiah is that Prophet, you must hope yet for another prophet's coming. If that yet coming prophet only gives you the words that have already been given, then why must he come and speak, and why must you listen to him if you already have the words? No, that Prophet must come with more than has already been given. That is why it is absolutely necessary that we listen to Messiah's words of life. It is my hope for you that you do grow to listen and see.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Seriously, are you questioning the faithfulness of YAHWEH because YAH chose to extend mercy to David? Do you not also believe the Hebrew Scriptures which abundantly indicate that YAH is merciful? If YAH is required to always operate according to the Torah which HE gave to you and me, then there is no room for HIS mercy as you have noted. But we do believe that YAH is merciful, don't we? Perhaps, deep down, you must still believe like the Christians who teach that YAHWEH's justice is so unyielding that YAH is required to slay an innocent man in our stead in order for him to be merciful to us? I don't mind telling you that such thinking is fruitless. The story of David and Bathsheba is very instructive concerning the faithfulness of our Heavenly Father to all of His word, and not just the Torah.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Why would you not be baptized again? Please explain?

Torah, you do believe in the Torah, don't you? Concerning baptism, <B>that Prophet</b> said:
Matt 3:15
15 And Yahushua answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. (KJV)What is righteousness? The Psalmist states that all of YAH's commandments are righteousness:
Ps 119:172
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. (KJV)Apparently, Messiah could see a commandment in the Torah which indicated to him that he needed to be baptized. You are acquainted with the Torah, aren't you? Could you show me in the Torah where it is commanded that the Messiah be baptized? Indeed, it might be helpful for you if you could discover and examine that commandment? Who knows, maybe you might in the process discover a commandment which commands that you also need to be baptized? Who knows, it may change your whole perspective?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

Everything is a matter of perspective. I can very easily look at the Flood and conclude that YAHWEH saved Noah and his family by destroying the world./

<font color=green>
Does YHUH say his purpose for destroying the world is to save Noah and his family?

Why did YHUH destroy the earth and all flesh:
Genesis 6:5-6 And YHUH saw that the evil of the adam was great on the earth...And YHUH repented that he had made the adam on the earth...
What does YHUH say he is going to do about it:
Genesis 6:7 And YHUH said, I will wipe out the adam whom I have created from the surface of the earth, from adam to animal to creeping thing and to the birds of the heavens...
What does YHUH say about Noah?
Genesis 6:8 but Noah found grace (favor) in the eyes of YHUH.

Genesis 7:1-3
1) And YHUH said to Noah, You and all your house come into the ark, for I have seen your uprightness...
2) From every clean animal you shall take to yourself...male and female...and the animal that is not clean by two, male and female.
3) And of the birds of the heavens by seven, male and female, to keep alive seed on the face of the earth</font>
[quote]I arrived at this conclusion because it did appear to me that this is exactly what YAH did to this world through the Cross of Messiah. The whole world died with Messiah and in the process only the Elect are saved through that death, and I am blessed to be one of the Elect. Without the destruction of my sinful self, I would have no hope of overcoming.
<font color=green>So how many times and in how many ways must one die to be saved?
We die through baptism
We die through the cross of Messiah</font>


Does this mean that I am now perfect or that I have now completely overcome. No, it does not, but it does mean that I believe that I will completely overcome because this sinful world was completely destroyed in the death of Messiah. So, you see, Sandy, I have no trouble believing in a spiritual world and system which others like yourself cannot see. To you it is make-believe; to me it is the real world.
<font color=green>But I am very aware of a spiritual world (or you could call it another dimension), but I do not think that means we are to spiritualize away the material world and system of the Hebrew Scriptures (which by the way is what Paul does). I do not see YHUH telling us that we are going to live in a spiritual world in the age to come.

It still all boils down to the fact that Noah, and all that were with him (which included animals), was saved by the ark not the water. The ark represents life and restoration (Genesis 6:19 7:3) and the water represents death/destruction (Genesis 7:21-23). Those who drowned in the water did not rise up again out of the water (as in baptism) but were completely destroyed.</font>[/list]


I want you to know again that you are welcome here. Your questions and challenges insure that we will always have a full plate of food in front of us. Everything important has not been detailed in the Hebrew Scriptures; otherwise, why would YAHWEH instruct Moses concerning the coming of the Prophet in this manner?:[quote]Deut 18:18-19
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (KJV)Because you do not believe that Messiah is that Prophet, you must hope yet for another prophet's coming. If that yet coming prophet only gives you the words that have already been given, then why must he come and speak, and why must you listen to him if you already have the words? No, that Prophet must come with more than has already been given. That is why it is absolutely necessary that we listen to Messiah's words of life. It is my hope for you that you do grow to listen and see.

Sincerely, Spying
<font color=green>You are right that I do not believe that Messiah is the prophet spoken of in the above quoted verses. The following will explain why.
[list]Deuteronomy 18
15) YHUH your Elohy shall raise up to you a prophet from among you, of your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him
16) according to all that you desired of YHUH in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not her again the voice of YHUH my Elohy, nor let me see this great fire any more, lest I die.
17) And YHUH said to me, They have spoken well what they have said.
18) I shall raise up a prophet to them from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.
19) And it shall be, whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it at his hand.

Joshua 1
5) There shall not be any man able to stand before you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not fail you nor will I forsake you.
6) Be strong and brave. For you shall cause this people to possess the land which I swore to their fathers....
16) And they answered Yahushua, saying, We will do all that you command us; and we will go everywhere you shall send us.
17) According to all we heard from Moses, so we will listen to you. Surely YHUH is with you, as he has been with Moses.
18) Whoever rebels against your mouth, and will not listen to your commands in all that you say to him, he shall be put to death...

Joshua 3:7
And YHUH said to Yahushua, This day I will begin to make you great in the eyes of all Israel, so that they shall know that as I was with Moses, I am with you.

Joshua 4:14
On that day YHUH made Yahushua great in the sight of all Israel and they feared him all the days of his life, even as they feared Moses.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Sandy,

Seriously, are you questioning the faithfulness of YAHWEH because YAH chose to extend mercy to David? Do you not also believe the Hebrew Scriptures which abundantly indicate that YAH is merciful? If YAH is required to always operate according to the Torah which HE gave to you and me, then there is no room for HIS mercy as you have noted. But we do believe that YAH is merciful, don't we? Perhaps, deep down, you must still believe like the Christians who teach that YAHWEH's justice is so unyielding that YAH is required to slay an innocent man in our stead in order for him to be merciful to us? I don't mind telling you that such thinking is fruitless. The story of David and Bathsheba is very instructive concerning the faithfulness of our Heavenly Father to all of His word, and not just the Torah.

Sincerely, Spying
<font color=green>Spying, I was responding to your statement

Does not YAH say that the soul who sins shall die?
Ezek 18:20-21
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(KJV)
I was attempting to show that is not always the case. Using king David's situation with Bethsheba as an example.

Yes, YAH showed mercy in that he spared David's life, but he did not have mercy on the child.

In this case the sinner lived and the innocent child was struck and died.

You titled this post Fruitless Thinking so am I to assume that you believe I am to ignore such things in the scriptures?

[simpleman]

Shalom Spying,

I am looking forward to discussing this topic if we ever get to it. :)

You wrote:Exod 12:3-6
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:.......
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (KJV

You made bold the line "and the whole assembly....

I would make bold the line <b> "every man a lamb </b>.... if I knew how :)<b>Thanks Hyssop </b>

I am waiting to be convinced of your ideas on this topic. It seems that it may be difficult at present.

In Messiah,
Simpleman





[Edited by simpleman on 01-16-2001 at 05:05 PM]

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

The program that runs this forum is very good. That means we each don't have to be so accomplished in order to do all the impressive stuff within our posts. If you look down to the bottom of this page, you will see a link entitled "vB codes". Follow it, and it explains how to quote, how to embold, and so on. If you have any problem, let me know.

We have alot of good capabilities with this program. We can delete our own posts. We can edit them. The management here has placed a time limit on both of those functions. I don't recall if you were at the EliYah Forum when William got mad, and he went through every thread in which he had participated, and he wiped out all of his posts, and basically destroyed the train of thought of each thread. After a certain period of time, that cannot happen on this forum.

One major drawback of this type of forum and also its primary strength is that multiple participants can converse on the same thread. It does appear that the conversation is being side-tracked, but if we are disciplined, and if we are charitable, then we can always resume our previous conversation if we have been interrupted. I don't like to be interrupted. It breaks my concentration, but I firmly believe that we all have to be accountable to each other, and be willing to give an account to whomever asks of us. Does that mean that I feel that I am obligated to answer every post directed to me? Yes, I do. Am I required to answer? No! I converse and answer as time permits. I do also get side-tracked. So, there are going to be a lot of times that I don't answer.

If I may make a suggestion to you, establish a test thread, practice there with the "vB codes" until you become familiar with how they work, and then you as the starter of the thread, can delete the thread if you desire. You have about 2 hours before you won't be allowed to delete it or so I have been told.

I really want to get back to our conversation as soon as I am able.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

There exists a physical law. You can see it with your physical eyes. It is written down in the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Ten Commandments are known by almost all.

There does also exist a spiritual law. You cannot see it with your physical eyes because it is not written down any place in a physical sense. This spiritual Law has already been written down in your heart. That is why you are here searching and asking questions about the Law and specifically about the Passover Lamb.

The physical law is a shadow of the spiritual law. You can learn about the latter by learning about the former, but remember the physical Law is only a shadow of the spiritual Law. It is a reflection. It is an image. The physical Law is real, but it is not the realest thing. Everything about the physical Law has a correspondence in the spiritual. Consider light and darkness. These are subjects that we have been discussing thus far on this forum. We all know, unless of course we are blind from birth, what physical light is. We see it every day with our physical eyes. Physical light is a shadow or image of something in the spiritual realm. On the physical level, light makes physical life possible so spiritual light should make spiritual life possible. YAH is a spirit so it would not be unreasonable to conclude that HIS spiritual life is intimately connected with spiritual light. Do physical light and spiritual light ever come together. Are they ever united. The same question can be asked about physical life and spiritual life. I believe that they are united in Messiah YAHUSHUA.

Now, the physical Law requires as you have noted <B>every man a lamb</b>. If you are one who desires life, and I am certain you do, then you are obligated under the Law to fulfill this commandment. At this point, some will take me to Paul and claim that they are not under the Law. Because they imagine themselves to be free from the Law, they absolutely feel no obligation to accomplish what the Law requires them to do. In this case, the Law requires them to sacrifice a Passover Lamb.

On the other hand, we have the Jew who admits that he is under the Law and who admits that he is looking forward to someday again killing a Passover Lamb. Many Gentiles have felt the desire to fulfill this requirement according to the physical. That's ok. Whenever you read and study the physical Law, I don't believe that you can help be develop a desire to want to fulfill it. So, as long as you are only looking at the physical Law with physical eyes, you have no other option. You must kill a physical lamb, <B>every man a lamb</b>.

Historically, most Christians claim that Messiah is the Passover Lamb, but rarely have they taken the time to figure out exactly how Messiah is <B>their</b> Passover Lamb. They do claim him as such. If he is their lamb, how did they kill him as the Law requires? On the other hand, men like Stranger reject that Messiah is the Passover Lamb because Messiah obviously was a man and not a lamb. Such men are looking at the Law with physical eyes only. One must make the transition from the physical keeping of the Law to the spiritual keeping of the Law before one can see how YAHUSHUA is the Lamb.

The psalmist said:
Ps 119:105
105 <font color="blue">Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.</font color> (KJV)Solomon said:
Prov 6:23
23 <font color="blue">For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:</font color> (KJV)Surely, neither of these statements are suggesting that the Word and Law of YAH are actually physical light. These statements are to be taken in a spiritual sense. The Word and Law of YAH are spiritual light. If the Law instructs you to kill a Passover Lamb, and that killing is involved in the way of life, then it is necessary if you desire life, that you must prove how you have killed your lamb. How did you kill Messiah, Simpleman?

I will give you a hint: Paul states that Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures i.e. the Word and the Law (1 Corinthians 15:3).

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Hi Simpleman,

There exists a physical law. You can see it with your physical eyes. It is written down in the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Ten Commandments are known by almost all.

There does also exist a spiritual law. You cannot see it with your physical eyes because it is not written down any place in a physical sense. This spiritual Law has already been written down in your heart. That is why you are here searching and asking questions about the Law and specifically about the Passover Lamb.

The physical law is a shadow of the spiritual law. You can learn about the latter by learning about the former, but remember the physical Law is only a shadow of the spiritual Law. It is a reflection. It is an image. The physical Law is real, but it is not the realest thing. Everything about the physical Law has a correspondence in the spiritual. Consider light and darkness. These are subjects that we have been discussing thus far on this forum. We all know, unless of course we are blind from birth, what physical light is. We see it every day with our physical eyes. Physical light is a shadow or image of something in the spiritual realm. On the physical level, light makes physical life possible so spiritual light should make spiritual life possible. YAH is a spirit so it would not be unreasonable to conclude that HIS spiritual life is intimately connected with spiritual light. Do physical light and spiritual light ever come together. Are they ever united. The same question can be asked about physical life and spiritual life. I believe that they are united in Messiah YAHUSHUA.

<font color=green>Please define: spirit and spiritual.

Are you saying that one is to live on two levels: a physical and a spiritual?

Are you saying that someday the physical world will be removed and only the spiritual will remain?</font>

Now, the physical Law requires as you have noted <B>every man a lamb</b>. If you are one who desires life, and I am certain you do, then you are obligated under the Law to fulfill this commandment. At this point, some will take me to Paul and claim that they are not under the Law. Because they imagine themselves to be free from the Law, they absolutely feel no obligation to accomplish what the Law requires them to do. In this case, the Law requires them to sacrifice a Passover Lamb. On the other hand, we have the Jew who admits that he is under the Law and who admits that he is looking forward to someday again killing a Passover Lamb. Many Gentiles have felt the desire to fulfill this requirement according to the physical. That's ok. Whenever you read and study the physical Law, I don't believe that you can help be develop a desire to want to fulfill it. So, as long as you are only looking at the physical Law with physical eyes, you have no other option. You must kill a physical lamb, <B>every man a lamb</b>.

<font color=green>Why does everyone call it a lamb? The Passover animal was a year-old male from the sheep or the goats (Exodus 12:5). This is not some cute cuddly little lamb as eveyone likes to portray. It did not even have to be from the sheep.</font>

Historically, most Christians claim that Messiah is the Passover Lamb, but rarely have they taken the time to figure out exactly how Messiah is <B>their</b> Passover Lamb. They do claim him as such. If he is their lamb, how did they kill him as the Law requires? On the other hand, men like Stranger reject that Messiah is the Passover Lamb because Messiah obviously was a man and not a lamb. Such men are looking at the Law with physical eyes only. One must make the transition from the physical keeping of the Law to the spiritual keeping of the Law before one can see how YAHUSHUA is the Lamb.

<font color=green>How do you justify your spiritual theory with Genesis 22 where Abraham offers his son (as instructed by YHUH), but then YHUH stops him and replaces his son with an animal, which is opposite of your spiritual theory.</font>

The psalmist said:
Ps 119:105
105 <font color="blue">Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.</font color> (KJV)Solomon said:
Prov 6:23
23 <font color="blue">For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:</font color> (KJV)Surely, neither of these statements are suggesting that the Word and Law of YAH are actually physical light. These statements are to be taken in a spiritual sense.

<font color=green>So are you saying that because an allegory has been used it has to be spiritual and not just simply an allegory?</font>

The Word and Law of YAH are spiritual light. If the Law instructs you to kill a Passover Lamb, and that killing is involved in the way of life, then it is necessary if you desire life, that you must prove how you have killed your lamb. How did you kill Messiah, Simpleman?

<font color=green>I have a very difficult time believing that YHUH accepts doing something in the spiritual sense that he has forbidden in the physical.</font>

I will give you a hint: Paul states that Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures i.e. the Word and the Law (1 Corinthians 15:3).

<font color=green>You want us to listen to Paul? The thirteenth (self proclaimed) apostle, which he does with his usual trickery. 1 Corinthians 15 9) For I am the least of the apostles, who am not sufficienct to be called an apostle... 10) But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace which was toward me was not without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them; yet not I, but the grace of God with me...</font>

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Hello Spying,

I am glad to be talking with you again. I understand where you are going with your question (I think). The difference between your view of Messiah as passover Lamb and my view is in the idea of who's lamb is He. You see, I believe that as far as fulfilling the passover sacrifice, Messiah is the Lamb of Yahweh. Yahweh is our Father who killed the Lamb for His family. We partake of the Lamb that He gave for us. I do agree, as can be seen by my other post, that we have a part in Messiah's death also. I just do not equate that sacrifice fulfillment with the Passover but with the sin offering. To me, the Passover celebrates the freedom from this world's system. Understanding this gives us the ability to choose how we will behave and live. I do not see this as a sacrifice for sin but a sacrifice to give freedom from sin. Yahweh gave that sacrifice. I do aknowledge that my sin killed Messiah. I also see Messiah offering up Himself. I believe that many things were happening at once on a spiritual level.

I started this converstion with a question. Do you remember it? It has been a while. :) Please tell me how "all mankind" sacrificed Messiah. I believe that He was the passover lamb for all of "Israel" yet not all have made their sin offering. Some are not even aware that they need one. Also a new question, in relation to the Passover lamb and sin, please help me see the connection.

Shalom,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Thank you for your reply. I recognize what you are saying, and I want to ask you a few questions first hoping that you will recognize the answers on your own before I give my answers. What father would kill his own son? I know there must be a name for that? What it is called? Now, a father might kill a bad son who was in the process of doing evil or attempting to do what is evil, but, I mean, what father would kill his only good son, an innocent son who always does what is pleasing to him and who only goes about doing good? Think about it, Simpleman; really think about it. Would you ever contemplate doing such a thing as killing one of your innocent sons? You don't realize when you say such a thing just how slanderously evil you make YAH appear! Now, who do you suppose is the author of such a teaching? You know when I informed Bratu that HaSatan is now redundant, I was speaking from YAH's point of view. HaSatan is very active in this world. HaSatan is as deceptive as ever. Now, this is going to be hard for you to accept, but the teaching that you have just expressed about FATHER YAHWEH is right at the top of HaSatan's favorite deceptions list.

No where does the Law require YAH to kill HIS Good and Righteous Son! You can look for it, but you will not find it. This is no such requirement. Messiah said he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. So, if there is such a Law, show it to me. It amazes me that we are all looking and reading the same Law, especially the laws concerning the Passover Lamb, and that any of us could conclude that the Law requires FATHER YAH to kill HIS own good Son. It is not only not in the Law, but it is ABOUT as unlawful a thing as I can think of! The Word of ELOHIM is light. Consider these statements:
Prov 6:16-17
16 <font color="blue">These six things doth the YAHWEH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:</font color>
17 <font color="blue">A proud look, a lying tongue, and <B>hands that shed innocent blood</b>,</font color> (KJV)

Prov 17:15
15 <font color="blue">He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the YAHWEH.</font color> (KJV)I am hoping that in contemplating these words that a light will come on in your mind. This is such a critical area of thinking whenever one begins to wonder and question concerning the nature of our Heavenly Father. HaSatan does not want you to discover what FATHER YAH is like. He will do everything he can do to turn off the light that is now beginning to shine in your mind. Just remember that I told you that.

When we talk about the Passover Lamb, we are dealing with the Law. We have to become lawyers in our thinking. We have to willing to become as picky and technical with the Law almost as much as Sandy is with "Sandy speak". So, when I tell you that the Law does not require FATHER YAH to kill the Passover Lamb, go to the Law and see if I am telling you the truth.

Now, if it is not in the Law, who is it that would want you to believe that YAH is required to do it?

Sincerely, Spying

P.S. Now, when you start studying about the Passover Lamb, you are going to discover the Law of the Passover of the Second Month (Numbers 9). Now, this Passover also has tremendous application for Messiah, but for now, ignore how it might be fulfilled in and through Messiah. Just look for what the Law requires concerning the slaying of the Passover Lambs.

[simpleman]

Spying,

Shalom and blessings to you and your family. I will think about what you have written but I must say that I am disappointed in your reluctance to answer my questions in a straightforward manner. I have continued to answer your questions as best and honestly as I can.

I kind of expected you to respond about how Yahweh could not lawfully kill His son. The trouble with that point is that you can not show me where it is commanded in the law for me to kill someone else’s innocent son either. We must either view Messiah as a lamb sacrificed or not. If we decide to skip the spiritual understanding and view him as a person being murdered, then the law allows no killing of him unless he is guilty of a death punishable offense. I would also like to ask if you believe that as high priest Yeshua laid down His life as an atonement sacrifice? I do believe so. If He did, then using your reasoning I would need to find where it is lawful for a man to kill himself. Do you see the difficulty opened up by this reasoning? We end up making Messiah’s death no more than an unjustified murder. This seems to be the way perhaps Lou or Sandy would see it. I do not see it that way.

I would also like to make another point but it will only be received as valid if you believe that the Father and Son are echad. Both Yahweh. If you do not see it this way, I don’t judge you and don’t want to argue it, but my point will make no sense. :)

Abraham made a covenant with Yahweh. He cut animals in half, in the way of the Chaldeans, and was prepared to walk between them with Yahweh. What the parties to a covenant were saying by this is that if they broke their part of the agreement, the other party could do to them as had been done to the animals. The more important the covenant the more animals were used. Yahweh caused Abraham to be unable to walk between the pieces and took his place there. This made Yahweh liable (like a co-signer for a loan) to pay not only if He failed in the covenant but also if Abraham failed. Knowing that we believers/Israelites are all children of Abraham naturally or spiritually, we were all part of that covenant. Check out Abraham and his descendants and let me know if their part of the deal was kept. I don’t think it was. Therefore it is perfectly legal that Yahweh pay the penalty for our failure. I believe He did so in the person of Messiah Yeshua. Since He was representing both parties of the covenant, only He could legally lay claim to what was due of Him for the failure of Abraham and/or his descendants. This aspect of His sacrifice is not essential for us to agree upon in order for my argument that Yahweh sacrificed His son and that Yeshua laid down His own life to be seen, but I do believe that it adds to the legality of the whole thing.

I know that it is foreign for you to believe that perhaps the deceiver’s biggest lie is not that Yahweh sacrificed His son but may be instead that He didn’t. What greater love is there than to lay down one’s life for his friends? If they (Father and Son) are one, than whose life did the Father lay down but His own?

At any rate, let us stick to one view of Messiah in regards to the sacrifice. Is He a lamb or a son? Who was slain before the foundation of the earth? Who slew Him?



Shalom in Messiah,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Your reply was top notch. I do thank you for it. There is only so much that one can entertain and reply to in a post. Short posts are better than long posts. TrustInYHWH taught me that. (I wonder does anyone happen to have TrustInYHWH's e-mail address?)

Have you ever know spies to be openly forthcoming? Even so, I beg to disagree with you :). I think that I did give you a direct answer. I think that you are moving toward the connection, but I am not certain. I wanted you to be fully aware that when anyone begins to teach that Yahushua is this or that, or that Yahushua has accomplished this or that, I want you to be fully aware that everything expressed about him or thought about him must fit into a lawful context because Yahushua himself was under the Law and himself subject to the Word of YAH. This is why Paul says that everything happened according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). This is why Messiah said:
Luke 18:31-33
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, <font color="red">Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and <B>all things that are written</b> by the prophets concerning the Son of man <B>shall be accomplished</b>.</font color>
32 <font color="red">For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:</font color>
33 <font color="red">And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (KJV)</font color>So, whenever you or anyone should say to me that Yahushua was a priest, I should properly go to the Hebrew Scriptures to see what is required of priests. Everything has to fit. If you should tell me that Messiah was a priest and that he did offer up a pig, I will tell you that you are wrong. Unclean animals were never sacrificed. The Law plainly states the type and quality of the animals required. If Messiah offered himself, then in a spiritual sense, he would have to prove to be a clean animal, wouldn't he? Messiah cannot be a priest except according to the scriptures. Messiah cannot offer anything except according to the scriptures.

Now, when you bring YAHWEH ELOHIM into this picture, it is a different story. YAHWEH ELOHIM is above the Scriptures. HE is the giver of the Law, and HE HIMSELF is not subject to the Law in the same manner required of the Children of Israel. Obviously, the Law is an expression of the will of YAHWEH so YAHWEH will act according to HIS will, but I for one do not believe, as the Jews teach, that the Law is the total expression of the will of YAHWEH. There is more to the will of YAHWEH than just the Law of Moses. So, we make a mistake should we attempt to put YAHWEH under the Law.

Now, it may very well be that YAHWEH did kill his son as you have taught, but if HE did, then I for one will adamantly go to my grave proclaiming that Messiah did not die according to the Scriptures. The Law does not require YAHWEH to offer anything, but it requires many things of the priests, and it requires many things of you. This is how you must begin to look at these things before the connection will become clear to you.

At this point, I want to switch gears here and answer your questions about YAHWEH. I also believe that Yahushua is YAHWEH, but not in the same manner that you view them. I see Yahushua as being the core of YAHWEH, the seed of YAHWEH, so to speak. YAHWEH is much more than just Messiah himself.

YAHWEH is the lamb killed before the foundation of the world. HaSatan killed YAHWEH. Now, I am not speaking about physical death here, but physical death and physical murder are a shadow of what occurred between YAHWEH and HaSatan. The Cross of Messiah is partially a reenactment of that death which occurred before the foundation of the world. The Cross of Messiah is also a regathering of YAHWEH ELOHIM. Now, what do I mean by that statement? YAHWEH ELOHIM were scattered after their death. The Cross brings them all back together again. About a third of YAHWEH ELOHIM were lost through the death of YAHWEH. Through the Cross these lost legions are replaced. Who are the replacements? They are called the <B>ELECT</b>. This is why we are going to judge Angels, Simpleman. We can through the Cross see what actually happened before the foundation of the world. We can see the guilty parties. YAHWEH desires that our judgment be correct. This is why the Tzaddikim insist that Messiah died according to a pattern, and this pattern is contained in the Scriptures, and for the most part, in the Law. This is why HaSatan so desperately wants to confuse the picture. He wants to corrupt our judgment. The world up to this point has believed HaSatan, but no more. There is a shot heard around the world, and that shot is the Cross of Messiah.

Have a good Sabbath, Simpleman. May YAH continue to bless you and your family.

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Spying,

Thanks for your interesting reply. I, however interesting your position appears, do not seek to move to the topic of the nature of Yahweh until the current topic is covered to our mutual satisfaction. Is this ok?

I always understood your "spying" name to signify that you saw yourself as one of those sent to spy out the land. If I am correct, than I must be one to whom you are reporting your findings. In that case, I think even spies are forthcoming. :)

Here are the questions I see as left unanswered:

As far as His death, do we look at Yeshua as a lamb to be sacrificed or as the Son of Yahweh? This is important in determining if Yahweh may have had a part in the sacrifice. I do not think you can have it both ways and call Him a lamb for you & me but a Son where Yahweh is concerned.

Your original statement was that all mankind offered up Yeshua. I still do not see any proof of this opinion.

You make a conection between the passover sacrifice and a sin sacrifice. I have not seen you do this from Scripture as of yet.

Answer these questions and I will be glad to move on to the nature of Yahweh. You appear to have some interesting views.

Shalom to you and your family,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Surely, it is ok with me. I was not working to switch to a new topic. I was merely answering these questions:
Who was slain before the foundation of the earth? Who slew Him?Your understanding is correct, and you now have a distinct advantage over me. As it is written:
Prov 25:2
2 <font color="blue">It is the glory of ELOHIM to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.</font color> (KJV)In Messiah Yahushua we are both kings (a king is someone who rules over the land given to him). So, we do well in searching out this matter, the very things which ELOHIM have concealed.

Concerning reporting, it is written:
Isa 53:1
1 <font color="blue">Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the YAHWEH revealed?</font color> (KJV)It matters to me that you and others believe. So, you can understand why I proceed slowly and cautiously.

Messiah Yahushua is the Lamb of ELOHIM. Messiah Yahushua is also the Son of ELOHIM. I gave you a big hint concerning the Lamb when I told you about Numbers 9. Did you go there? Here is what the Law states concerning the Lamb:
Num 9:13-14
13 <font color="blue">But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the <B>offering of the YAHWEH</b> in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.</font color>
14 <font color="blue">And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the YAHWEH; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall <B>he</b> do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.</font color> (KJV)Indeed, the Passover Lamb is the offering of YAH, but the Law is very clear who must bring and keep the Passover according to the ordinance and manner thereof. Yah has offered (in the sense of give, John 3:16) the Lamb, but the Law is very clear, as you have already seen, who exactly it is that must slay the Lamb. As you have noted, Simpleman, <B>"Every man a lamb"</b>. What good would it do for YAH to slay HIS offering, when YAH clearly requires you to do it?

Allow me to show you the big advantage that the strangers like ourselves have over the Jews. Look at what Paul says in Romans concerning Gentiles:
Rom 9:30-32
30 <font color="blue">What shall we say then? That the Gentiles (the strangers), which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.</font color>
31 <font color="blue">But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.</font color>
32 <font color="blue">Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;</font color> (KJV)Now, to this point in your life, you have not followed after the Law of righteousness. You haven't really felt it to be important, but you do believe that Yahushua is your Passover Lamb. What prevents you from believing in faith that you yourself did bring and slay the Passover Lamb as required by the Law? If you somehow killed Messiah, then you have attained righteousness, haven't you?---Because the Law requires you to kill the Passover Lamb. If you somehow do what the Law requires, is not the Law happy, and have you not attained unto righteousness? It sure is, and you sure have! Now, there are two ways of doing what the Law requires as Paul notes. You can bring and kill a physical Passover Lamb as the Jews still desire to do (this is what Paul calls a work of the Law), or you can in faith simply believe that Yahushua is your Lamb, and that you did kill him.

Now, it is not easy to accept this faith, indeed the fact that you are a murderer, Simpleman, but that is exactly what the righteousness of faith teaches:
Gal 2:16-17
16 <font color="blue">Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of YAHUSHUA MESSIAH, even we have believed in YAHUSHUA MESSIAH, that we might be justified (made righteous) by the faith of MESSIAH, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.</font color>
17 <font color="blue">But if, while we seek to be justified (made righteous) by MESSIAH, we ourselves also are found <B>sinners</b>, is therefore MESSIAH the minister of sin? ELOHIM forbid.</font color> (KJV)Do you have a desire to be justified (made righteous) by the faith of Messiah? Messiah saw himself in the Scriptures. Messiah knew and believed that Moses wrote about him. If we desire to be made righteous by the same faith, we must grow to believe that Moses wrote about us also. We are <B>every man</b>, Simpleman.

Now, I have accepted and acknowledged my righteousness that I have through faith in Messiah. To me it is as filthy rags. Messiah died because of my sin. Thus, my sin is the direct cause of his death. Most Gentiles do now teach otherwise concerning the righteousness of faith. They don't want to lay claim to this righteousness. They would rather have it said that YAH killed the Lamb. Why? It takes them off the hook. By their belief, they are no longer proven to be sinners. As long as they believe that way, they don't have to face their sin. It is a real turnabout, Simpleman. In Paul's day, it was the Jew who did want to accept the righteousness of faith. Today, it is the Gentile who does not want to accept the righteousness of faith. Yes,<font color="blue">"who hath believed our report?"</font color>

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Spying,

I really enjoy discussing these issues with you. I am having a bit of a hard time because you seem to switch between definitions of terms within the same post. I really need to see if you look at the sacrifice of Messiah as a legal (within the law or fulfilling the law) sacrifice or as a murder. At one point you seem to say that the law is happy or satisfied if I kill Messiah. Then you turn around and call it murder! I don’t see how it can be both.

You speak of every man a lamb but leave out the point that each man’s lamb was sufficient for his household. I believe Yeshua to be sufficient for the whole house of believers/Israel. Who would be the Father or man in that case?

You also seem to think that christians continue in their sinful ways. This has not been my experience. Perhaps you know the wrong christians. :)

You place much importance on my acceptance of Yeshua as my Passover lamb. This I readily do. You place equal importance on my understanding that I sacrificed Yeshua due to my sins. This I also accept and believe whole-heartedly. I just see these as 2 separate and distinct ideas. Is this too hard to reconcile? Am I to be lost if I die with this belief?

Is it possible that you have decided on what is correct and leave no room for new ideas in this area? I have shown a way to see our sacrificing Messiah as well as Yahweh sacrificing Messiah and Messiah offering himself on our behalf. I see no reason why our Father could not sacrifice for our household unless you keep switching back and forth on terms like lamb and son. How is it ok for us to sacrifice Yahweh’s lamb but not ok for Him to do so?

At any rate, I have no need to prove my belief to anyone. I do not have a “group” with a doctrine or a web site. I do not have anyone looking to me for answers except my family. You would appear to have the burden of proof here. You should be ready with answers to the questions of serious brethren. I restate my questions:

#1. Son or Lamb? Sacrifice or murder?
#2. How is the Passover lamb connected with the sin offering?
#3. Where does it say that all mankind sacrificed Messiah?

Perhaps you are answering but I am too simple to pull the answers from your posts. To help me, why not number your answers, and answer directly first with supporting thoughts afterwards. Perhaps I will then be able to see that we are not going around in circles, as it seems.

I hope that I have not come across as angry. I really am not. I feel like you have something of substance to share but that either I am missing it or you are not giving it to me. We seem so close in our understanding and yet also miles apart. :)

Shalom,
Simpleman

[Phinehas]

Spying,

First of all let me thank for the opportunity to post at this forum.

I have been watching this thread since you first started it a month ago. Your view on salvation, and what Yahshua's death means to us is of great interest to me. Now a
month is a long time to follow a discussion on an internet forum. In order to fully understand the discussion requires one to either periodically check back through the
various arguments that have been made along the way, or to take the time to sit down and read through all the posts in one sitting. To make sure I wasn't missing any part
of the discussion I decided to print out all 26 pages of postings that have been made thus far and read through it last evening. It was actually quite an enjoyable task.

For the first time I was able to clearly see not only what view you are espousing, but also your method of presenting your point. If I may, let me present my view of what
you are trying to accomplish with your style of teaching.

You see the scriptures as a book that deals with ideas, concepts, and principles. When tackling a concept you view the word as perhaps a puzzle that has many, many
pieces that must all come together to form a complete picture. You start by building the borders of the puzzle and slowly filling in the pieces towards the center. As the
puzzle fills in we start to get a clearer picture of what you are showing us until at last the final missing piece is put into place and we have a beautiful, complete concept,
with no holes, no flaws, no missing pieces. We have an airtight argument with total harmony from beginning to end. I think this is the proper way to make your case, but it
has some potential dangers and shortcomings.

One shortcoming is that it takes patience on the part of all parties involved. It is a slow-moving process. It has the potential to allow people to lose interest(both teacher
and student). Care must be taken to keep interest in the subject piqued. A second shortcoming, actually more of a danger I think, is that when your puzzle is coming to
completion, when you are ready to drop the final piece into place, the puzzle doesn't look quite as you expected. That final piece can sometimes change the whole
complexion of the picture. When this happens it can deal a fatal blow to your entire argument.

I have watched as Simpleman has presented some excellent evidence that at least gives a legitimate alternative to your view about Messiah's death. It seems we are at
somewhat of a standstill in our understanding at this point. So finally to my point. Early on in the discussion Simpleman brought Isaiah 53 into the picture. Not as a main
point of discussion , but as support for another argument he was making. Well, I want to bring Isaiah 53 to the forefront of this discussion. I know you believe that Isaiah
53 is a pointed reference to the Messiah, and not a reference to the nation of Israel as many believe. So what will it be Spying. Is Isaiah 53 the final piece of the puzzle
that will bring the concept you are espousing to perfection, or is it the fatal flaw that causes the picture to blow up in our faces.

With anticipation of a forthright response,

Phinehas

[Spying]

Hi Phinehas and Simpleman,

Thank you for your responses. I want to welcome you, Phinehas, to this forum and to this thread. You are loyal and bold almost to the point of rashness. I enjoyed your analysis, and I do have quite a bit to say about it. Before I retired two nights ago, I complained to YAH that Simpleman was responding as if I only had responsibility to teach him. It is very easy as we become absorbed in our conversations on these boards to forget that others are listening to our conversations. I was gratified to see you post. You are proof that others are listening and watching.

We are putting a puzzle together. We are painting a portrait, but I have not begun at the border as you suggest. I have always been focused on the center of the puzzle or portrait which is Messiah and him crucified, buried, and resurrected. I generally begin with his death, and, as it has been progressing on this thread, specifically with the Passover Lamb. Often, I will also use the Red Heifer. Messiah stated that he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Isaiah is one of the prophets so Isaiah 53 and specifically Isaiah 53:7-10 cannot be ignored if Yahushua is the Messiah. However, in laying the foundation which is Messiah, I do not start with the prophets as the churches of this world primarily do. They like Isaiah 53, and they take it and interpret it as they desire, but in doing so they have not laid the foundation which Messiah laid. Messiah in explaining himself to his disciples began with Moses:
Luke 24:27
27 <font color="blue">And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.</font color> (KJV)

Luke 24:44
44 <font color="blue">And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.</font color> (KJV)The Apostle Paul generally did the same:
Acts 28:23
23 <font color="blue">And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of ELOHIM, persuading them concerning Yahushua, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.</font color> (KJV)So, I am following the pattern of some impressive teachers as I teach concerning Messiah Yahushua. I always insist that we begin with the Law because the Law is rock solid. The Law is foundational. What does it mean that it should be said the Messiah is the Lamb of ELOHIM or the Lamb of YAH? How do we even begin to possibly understand what that means without starting at the Law? Everyone reads Isaiah 53, and each thinks that they know what is says. They give their interpretation based not upon law, but based upon what they believe in their heart must be right? How do we determine if they are right?

Let me ask you both? If Messiah is the Lamb of YAH, is Messiah also in the same manner the Passover Lamb of YAH? There is a difference you know. The Passover Lamb is the offering of YAH, but YAH does not kill the Passover Lamb. So, why begin and end with Isaiah 53, thinking that you know everything about who killed the Lamb of YAH. We must begin at the Law, and we must look at all the sacrifices before we start drawing conclusions, before we start hacking away at the pieces of the puzzle in order to make them fit. There are many different animals required in the Law. No where does the Law require YAH to kill a sacrifice. Fathers and Sons are talked about in the Law. No where does the Law require a father to kill a good son. Now, the Law requires that fathers deal with evil and rebellious sons. That is a totally different story, but no where is the foundation laid whereby an innocent son should be put to death to suffer the penalty of death for the sin of the father. So, why do so many look at Isaiah 53 and think that it teaches so, and that it takes precedence over the Law? It absolutely does not! It is the whores and the merchant preachers of this world who hold to this teaching. I will fight their teaching with every inch of my being. I will not be coupled with them! You, of all people, should know better, Phinehas!

Specifically, the Passover Lamb is a peace offering. That means certain things. There are many different types of animal offerings. I teach that they are all brought through the work of Messiah Yahushua, and I teach that we have killed them all through our sin. The animal offerings are all slain through our sin. Just because I say that, does not mean that I am saying that the Passover Lamb is a sin offering. Only sin offerings are sin offerings.

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but after we get the foundation right, after we get the center of the puzzle correct, then we will begin to understand what the Lamb of YAH really implies. If we have to adjust our teaching at that point, then so be it.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello Spying
You wrote:
Specifically, the Passover Lamb is a peace offering.Please show me where in the Hebrew Scriptures it states the Passover animal is a peace offering. Micah 6
6) With what shall I come before <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, And bow myself before Elohy Most High?
Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves, sons of a year?
7) Will <font color=purple>YHUH</font> be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8) He has declared to you, mankind, what is good;
And what does <font color=purple>YHUH</font> ask of you, but to do justice and loving kindness, and walk humbly with your Elohy.

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

Shalom to All,

I would like to present my first post in lue of Sandy and Spyings discussion. I am only on page one, so please bare with me.

Sandy makes a good point about the ark, and also when comparing this to the Passover Lamb, the meaning does not mean taking away the sins of the world, but the blood on the doorposts was also one that sent Israel into the inner chamber of protection, much like the ark. The Ark is also a protective thing as to the two cherubs cover the mercy seat wherein the law is kept. These inner chambers are those which are protective zones when the indignation or wrath of Yah upon sin comes to earth.

Isaiah 26: 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the YHVH cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more
cover her slain.

Spying says:
Allow me to give you my personal impression of the Lamb, but before I do please be aware that the Tzaddikim take John's designation of Messiah as the Lamb of ELOHIM very seriously. We truly believe that this Lamb does take away the sin of the world. We do not believe as the world does teach that the Lamb dies to remove the penalty of sin. YAH is not concerned about your penalty, but HE is concerned about removing your sin. If your sin is truly removed, it is gone. This has happened and is happening in the lives of the Tzaddikim.

As you should know by now, I view the sacrifices in a symbolic or spiritual sense with the focus on Messiah Yahushua. The Passover Lamb is unique because it must be slain before the Children of Israel could commence to leave Egypt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, I have just been lead to do a study on the sin offering. The sin offering was always a female Lamb. This means that it would not apply to Y'shua. Thus we are back to the inner chamber dwelling place.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Yah and His Righteousness.

This immersion thing is a Christian philosophy, whereas the inner chamber is an Israel Knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding. I think the error most times is that many forget that the Jew and Gentile are twain made one new creature - Spiritual Israel. The Christian theology shall not remain, nor the Jewish, but a spiritual Israel shall be born. In this, I ask you to consider the error of both their ways. Christians disobey the Law, Israel worships Baal. New Covenant Peculiar People have the Law written on their heart - an inner chamber in an inner Kingdom, where His (Yah's) Righteousness is found.

In regards to a dead world, I agree. I believe this is Gehenna itself and the devil's realm, the furnace of affliction for refining purposes. If you can't take the heat, you won't become gold. I agree that Israel is not physical Israel. They are merely converted Khazars, not much different from converted heathen/Gentiles.

I will end at the mystery of inquity and the dying to self, so the Spirit may have Control and thus issue forth the Father's decrees in the inner chamber of the heart. If the inner chamber of water is the womb of being born born again, then fine. But the Male Lamb does not take away the sins of the world. This is an error in interpretation.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

In combination with this statement is the command to obey the commandments. Propitiation means an appeasing of the Father's wrath, it is true, but the Father has been a forgiver of sins always when the Righteous remain righteous and do no wiskedness. The issue was humans failing to stay righteous. Y'shua comes to teach how to overcome sin in the flesh. There was no need to appease YHVH. Obedience is better then sacrifice in his eyes. Do you really think that human sacrifice is a doctrine of the Most High who can transfigure a being from flesh to light? Slaying the son is a spiritual teaching. Die to self. Kill the human self and rise to the Spiritual self. There is no condemnation for those walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Yes, Obey the commandments by the same power that raised Y'shua from the dead..... Love Yah with all your heart, mind and soul in the inner chamber, so the indignation will pass you by. Put blood on the doorposts of your heart. But the blood is not a sin offering. In my humble studies, Overcoming the flesh is the doctrine.

Looking foward to your reply,
Ishshah Yir'iyayh
Woman who fears Yah.




[Edited by Ishshah Yir'iyayh on 02-01-2001 at 09:24 AM]

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

Shalom,

Zech 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Notice that the high Priest comes, but the branch is still to come. Joshua.....

Y@howshuwa` {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} or Y@howshu`a {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} • AV - Joshua 218; 218 • Joshua or Jehoshua = "YHVH is salvation"

He is given the white robe and told to obey:

Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the YHVH, and HaSatan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the YHVH said unto HaSatan, The YHVH rebuke thee, O Satan; even the YHVH that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the YHVH stood by.
6 And the angel of the YHVH protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the YHVH of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

The change of garment that occured to Joshua to remove his iniquity from him, is the same as Y'shua helping us overcome the law of sin in the flesh to get a white robe, but obedience is next and the branch is still to come. The mystery of transformation unto transfiguration is a great one that only the Spirit can perform. But this manifestation goes all the way to new bodies. Satan represents skin from in the Garden. The serpent sheds its skin. Flesh that is against spirit is actually the serpent's making - And Yah put on them 'coats of skin'. There is your Egypt, Death, Toil - the curse to work the earth with labour. The new body submits to the Will of the Father and is prepared like Esther - the purifacation and perfection (12 months) the final Year - NOW - unto perfection before meeting with the KING. Will he hold forth the Sceptre unto you? Are you cleansed with the cleansing of the Bride of Israel?

Looking foward to your comments
Ishshah Yir'iyayh

[Phinehas]

Spying,

I can see you are going to stretch the boundaries of my thought process. I'll take that as a good thing. Breaking out of one's comfort zone is vital for growth and enlightenment. I sense you are being stretched a little thin right now as you attempt to put forward your arguments on different fronts. I won't press too hard. I need to address and clarify a couple of points.


You said:

"That is a totally different story, but no where is the foundation laid whereby an innocent son should be put to death to suffer the penalty of death for the sin of the father. So, why do so many look at Isaiah 53 and think that it teaches so, and that it takes precedence over the Law? It absolutely does not! It is the whores and the merchant preachers of this world who hold to this teaching. I will fight their teaching with every inch of my being. I will not be coupled with them! You, of all people, should know better, Phinehas! "


I need clarification from you on this point. Are you saying that many people look at Isaiah 53 and declare that Yahshua(the innocent son) is put to death for the sins of Yahweh(the father)? I could never agree with such an abominable doctrine and have never heard it presented in such a manner. Perhaps I'm living in a bubble.

You also stated that the writings of Moses are the centerpiece of your argument. You surely remember Yahshua telling us the scripture cannot be broken. It must all flow together as one piece. In the sense of being first, perhaps the writings of Moses are primary. In the sense of importance to our understanding, I see no difference between Genesis and Malachi. The scriptures you quoted from Luke and Acts do afterall contain the word "and" between Moses and Prophets. I see them standing on equal footing. It is all revelation from Yahweh.

Having said that, let me go back to my original question. You have to do something with Isaiah 53. I think you make a mistake in assuming I'm necessarily adversariel towards your position on Messiah. You know I'm not one for too much complexity. We are all looking for clarity from you on this issue. Will you honor that request?

May you be blessed,
Phinehas

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello :) Ishshah Yir'iyayh
First of all I wish to say I enjoyed your posts.
Your view concerning the ark was interesting and intriging.
Also, I did not realize that the sin offering was always female.

I do have a couple of questions or comments on some other things that you mentioned.

You wrote:
Zech 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Notice that the high Priest comes, but the branch is still to come. Joshua.....I am not sure I understand what you mean by this statement considering what it says in Zechariah 6:11-12.Zechariah 6
11) Take silver and gold and make crowns and set on the head of Yahusha ben Yahutsadaq, the high priest.
12) And speak to him, saying, So says <font color=purple>YHUH</font> of hosts, Behold! A man whose name is Branch...
[list] What is the law of sin? Who is the Bride of Israel?

[simpleman]

Spying,

I read with interest your complaint to our Father about me as your selfish student. I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do. It has never been my intention to place myself in the position of being your student. I felt that we were two equals sharing ideas with hopes of gaining deeper understanding. I guess I was wrong. I am not able to do this stuff any other way than I have been. I am a goal oriented individual. I do not handle cute hints and round about answers very well. I guess it comes from being a manager and a father of 7 soon to be 8. I value direct information that can be evaluated in the light of Scripture. I do not see myself as a child that needs to be spoon fed in tiny increments or led by the nose to some hidden point. I have been honest and direct in all of my answers and have put my clear thoughts right out there to be seen and picked apart. I can do this because I really want the truth more than I want to look wise and all knowing. I still have hopes that I can learn something from you and just maybe teach you something as well. You have asked me pointed questions throughout this conversation which I have done my best to answer. Again, I know no other way to do this stuff. Perhaps I will be able to see your point as you carry on with someone else. I will hang around the back of the class :) for a while so as not to distract your other "students". Maybe someone that you see as an equal will come along and warrent a direct response from you. I really am sad that I never seemed to get to the meat of your "doctrine".

Blessings to you and your family,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Don't you know by now that I like you? Don't you know that your ideas and opinions are important to me? I am sorry. I should not have let you know that I was complaining to YAH about you. I know that I should always keep a positive face and never let anything negative be communicated about a brother. So, when I complain about things, it is usually to YAH, and even in that, I was not mad at you or anything. It is just that I had no intention of answering your questions #1, #2, or #3 in a list fashion. Where did you learn to do that? Did you learn that from Seventh Angel? He always tried to do that to me!

I think if you look back at my post, you will see that I did discuss #1, and that I directly answered #2. I don't think that I discussed #3 at all. That is still on the table.

It is not my style of teaching to spell everything out. You are often going to have to work to discover the answers that you do get from me. Men are not equal. I am an elder of Messiah Yahushua. If you are not an elder, you are not equal to me. That does not mean that I consider myself more important than you. All it means is that I have a job that is different from yours, a job that requires me to serve you in a certain way. If you are not an elder, then you are in a student position with respect to me. Just yesterday, I had to question my son about his inability to get along with one of his teachers. He told me that that particular teacher was ignorant and harder to get along with than all the other teachers. I told him to make the best use of the opportunity. At the very least, he would learn how to get along with a stupid teacher! I look at you in similar fashion. Until you are an elder, you are going to have to learn how to get along with stupid elders. Make the best of your situation, Simpleman. Do not shrink back. I am not going to let you do that.

Have a good Sabbath Day!

Sincerely, Spying

[simpleman]

Spying,

I hope that I did not sound as if I thought that you didn't like me or respect me. I know that you do. You have said so on at least twice that I can recall. What I was trying to get to was the relationship we have on this board in particular. As you stated again, you see yourself as teacher/elder and me as student. I understand authority and submiting to stupid teachers (though I don't see you as one)but I have never seen myself under your authority. Our different views of our places in this relationship, specific to this forum and teaching, have I believe caused us to see things differently.

You may well be an elder in the body. I do not know you well enough to call you one. You may be a teacher in the assembly. Again, I do not know you well enough to know. Who has decided you are an elder? How large is your particular branch of the Body? This is cyberspace. A person can claim many things. The only way to work here for me is to give everyone an equal status until they prove differently. I have not elevated anyone here to the status of elder in my thinking. Again, possibly many are due that status. I have no way of knowing as of yet.

Seventh, although I respect him much, did not teach me to ask numbered questions. :) If you look back at the old boards you will see I did the same to him. It is much harder for a person to answer legitimate questions than to have a scripted teaching. A true teacher loves honest questions. It shows that a student is really seeking to understand.

Since you don't want me to hang back, let us leave the passover for just a moment.

Do you see the Messiah's sacrifice as a fulfillment of the atonement sacrifice? If so, who killed that one? Because I am so open you already know my thinking on the matter.

Good Sabbath to you,
Simpleman

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Not all things are exactly spelled out in the Scriptures.

The basic laws concerning the peace offerings are located in Leviticus 3. The basic laws concerning the offering of the original Passover Lamb are of course located in Exodus 12. The rules and regulations contained therein only applied to the original Passover. In the Wilderness, the Children of Israel only celebrated one Passover. Even for that Passover, do you imagine that the Children of Israel had side and upper door posts on their tents upon which to strike the blood? No, they didn't, so some changes were made with respect to the keeping of even the Wilderness Passover.

If you turn to 2 Chronicles 35, you will read an account of the manner in which the Children of Israel kept the Passover in the days of Josiah. Look at what these two verses say:
2 Chr 35:11-12
11 <font color="blue">And they killed the passover, and the priests sprinkled the blood from their hands, and the Levites flayed them.</font color>
12 <font color="blue">And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the YAHWEH, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.</font color>(KJV)Now, turn back to Exodus 12. Where does it say that priests should sprinkle the blood? Where does it say that the Levites should flay the Passover Lambs? Where does it require that any burnt offerings be removed from the Lambs? Indeed, the Exodus 12 makes no such allowances or requirements. If, however, we turn to Leviticus 3, you can plainly see a number of those requirements:
Lev 3:7-11
7 <font color="blue">If he offer a lamb for his offering, then shall he offer it before the YAHWEH.</font color>
8 <font color="blue">And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons shall sprinkle the blood thereof round about upon the altar.</font color>
9 <font color="blue">And he shall offer of the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire unto the YAHWEH; the fat thereof, and the whole rump, it shall he take off hard by the backbone; and the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,</font color>
10 <font color="blue">And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away.</font color>
11 <font color="blue">And the priest shall burn it upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire unto the YAHWEH.</font color> (KJV)So, we can conclude that at least by the time of Josiah, that the Children of Israel were offering the Passover Lambs as peace offerings.

Now, Sandy, this brings up a very interesting question. If Messiah Yahushua is the fulfillment of the Law, which practice concerning the Passover did he fulfill? Did he fulfill the role of the Passover Lamb of Exodus 12, or did he fulfill the role of the Passover Lamb as contained in 2 Chronicles 35? Why do I suddenly feel like I just handed you a loaded gun with which to bear down on me?

Have a good Sabbath Daylight, Sandy.

Sincerely, Spying

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

I love your questions Sandy,

You have such a great spirit.

You said: I do have a couple of questions or comments on some other things that you mentioned.
Zech 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Notice that the high Priest comes, but the branch is still to come. I am not sure I understand what you mean by this statement considering what it says in Zechariah 6:11-12.

Zechariah 6
11) Take silver and gold and make crowns and set on the head of Yahusha ben Yahutsadaq, the high priest.
12) And speak to him, saying, So says YHUH of hosts, Behold! A man whose name is Branch...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You didn't post the rest of the scripture.....

and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Y'shua said he would tear down the temple, and Christianity stopped the daily sacrifice, although he made a mystical statement of three days rebuilding it. These three days could be 3,000 years. But, I do not read this scripture as the Branch and Joshua being the same person, whereas others might. The Spiritual Body Temple is a New Testament explanation of the Y'shua manifestation. One I do believe in because I seem to be living it by His High and Mighty Hand and Calling, by no real doing of my own, Praise Yah. The literal Temple still comes, and in reality, the Mosaic Law includes the Tabernacle, and not a Temple, again that covering of protection, the tent of S'hkinah / Torah. But that is just the humbles sights Yah has given me. Please share.

Jeremiah 10:18 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will sling out the inhabitants of the land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so.
19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.
20 My tabernacle is spoiled, and all my cords are broken: my children are gone forth of me, and they are not: there is none to stretch forth my tent any more, and to set up my curtains.
21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.

So many mysteries: Abrahamic Covenant, Noachian Covenant, the order of Aaron verses the Order of Melchizedek. Then, the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the time of the he goat mentioned by Daniel says this:

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

It seems there is the smiting and healing of Yah and something David said:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

It seems that all this stopping the sacrifice was for a time of cleansing. But the sacrifice will be restored in the Temple. There is much involved in rightly dividing the Word.

The mystery of the Horns is another thing to contemplate. Sometimes a horn scatters and another Gathers. This is a mystery also. This is why I don't believe in the New Testament entirely yet as Messiah's cause. It appears that the coming of this manifestation is to smite. Many things don't match the Old and so much matches the Anti-christ, although, on the other side of the Jordan and perfection we are peculiar people meeting Y'shua, almost as if we met the true Messiah by being inner Kingdom Seekers. Yah is so mysterious to me. I believe in Y'shua (Yah's Salvation) For the Son must come in the Father's Name, the Glory must be the Fathers or it is Lucifer lifting himself up above the Father. So the doctrine of Christ is one thing and perfection seems to be another. I sure hope I am not rambling. Bless-ed is the true Name and Messiah, verses Chrsitianity and Political moves by thieves of glory. Feel free to ask more questions, I do not wish to offend anyone's beliefs. I am just sharing some of my own. I hope I am not way off topic now. Sorry if I am, Spying.

You asked: What is the law of sin?

Paul talked about the Law of sin in the flesh. This is the mystery of Inquity and the purpose of Sanctifacation, the cleansing of the Sanctuary. This is where the whole thread becomes interesting to me. The immersion or the washings are something I call crossing the river Jordan. I link that to Hebrews 6.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,
and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Beyond the doctrine of Christ is perfection, but again, crossing into the promised land, even unto Jerusalem, the waters always parted for Israel, but drowned the wicked. So drowning is a way to kill the wicked, as in Spyings treatise of the dead world. He is saying something deeper then I think he even knows. For this world is Gehenna. Maybe you do know that Spying, but is that another thread?

Sandy, You asked: Who is the Bride of Israel?

That was a little poetic statement from me that was refering to Esther when she went before the King, sorry I wasn't clear. But aren't we too supposed to be engraffed Israel, neither Jew nor Gentile, but the twain made one? And Jacob was made Israel.

Isaiah 27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.

This is the mystery. The altar is supposed to be trodden down, but it is done by the he goat. This is where I am troubled about the New testament. For Yah says wait. Please do offer your sights, they are a blessing.

Much Luv
Ishshah Yir'iyayh

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello Ishshah Yir'iyayh
Thank you for your post and it is nice to exchange thoughts with a "Woman who fears Yah".

I am in agreement that the verses we have been discussing in Zechariah may be prophetic. But I also believe that Yahusha was being called BRANCH (as a symbol).

I am not sure if I am understanding you correctly, are you saying: Y'shua of the NT is the BRANCH
he shall build the temple of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> as stated in Zechariah 6:13
but then in the next sentence you also say: "Y'shua said he would tear down the temple" (NT supposedly referring to his body),I personally do not believe Iesous/Y'shua of the NT is the Branch. He did not fulfill the things stated in Zechariah 6. He did not build the temple, in fact the temple was destroyed and has not existed for almost 2000 years.

Another example:
Zechariah 9
10) And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem. And the battle bow shall be cut off and he shall speak peace to the nations. And he shall rule from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth.
Iesous/Y'shua did not speak peace to the nations.Matthew 10:34
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.And he did not nor is he ruling from sea to sea etc.

To me, the NT is a book of plagiarisms of the Hebrew Scriptures and further distorted through Greek philosophy and Hermenetics.

You wrote:
<font color=black>The Spiritual Body Temple is a New Testament explanation of the Y'shua manifestation...</font>Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> for Israel, <font color=purple>YHUH</font> says, Who spread out the heavens and set the earth; and forms the spirit of mankind within him.

You wrote:
<font color=black>I hope I am not way off topic now. Sorry if I am, Spying.</font> I personally do not find you off topic. It is hard to stay in a slot when discussing the Scriptures, because one thing leads to another. And as to so many mysteries, I agree.

You wrote:
<font color=black>I believe in Y'shua (Yah's Salvation) For the Son must come in the Father's Name...</font>
Where in the Hebrew Scriptures does it indicate that the "messiah" or the "Branch" will be <font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> son? Does it not say that he will be from the seed of David?
Jeremiah 23 (Jeremiah 33:14-16)
5) Behold, the days come, says <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, that <font color=brown>I will raise to David a Branch of Rightness...</font>
6) And in his days Yahudah will be saved and Israel will dwell safely. And this is his name by which he will be called, Rightness of <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.
Here again, the Iesous/Y'shua of the NT did not fulfill these things.

The messiah may very well be called Yahusha, as indicated in Zechariah, but I do not see him as <font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> only begotten son. I see him as the seed of David and being raised up or established by <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.

You wrote:
<font color=black>Paul talked about the Law of sin in the flesh...</font>Paul uses the word law (nomos) very liberally. Paul has lots of laws law of faith (Romans 3:27)
law of the husband (Romans 7:2)
law of Theos (Romans 7:22)
law in my members (Romans 7:23)
law of my mind (Romans 7:23)
law of sin (Romans 7:23)
law of the spirit (Romans 8:2)
law of righteousness (Romans 9:31)
law of Moses (1 Corinthians 9:9)
law of Christ (Galations 6:2)The Hebrew word torah means instruction not law.

You wrote concerning my question, who is the Bride of Israel?
<font color=black>That was a little poetic statement from me that was refering to Esther when she went before the King, sorry I wasn't clear. But aren't we too supposed to be engraffed Israel, neither Jew nor Gentile, but the twain made one? And Jacob was made Israel.</font>I believe the grafting-in to be strickly a NT thing. If I am understanding the Hebrew Scriptures we choose whether or not to dwell in the midst of <font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> people, thereby becoming one with them by walking in the ways of <font color=purple>YHUH</font>. The nation of Israel was/is suppose to be our teacher, but so far that is not happening. They were to bring the knowledge of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and his ways to the other nations. I have not seen anything in the Hebrew Scriptures saying that the other nations become Israel.

You wrote:
<font color=black>The altar is supposed to be trodden down...</font>I am not sure what you are referring to here.

[Spying]

Hi Phinehas,

Good morning and happy Sabbath Day to you. I am intrigued by you. If we have just met, then your sense of perception is very good. This means to me that the spirit is strong within you. You seem familiar to me, but I can't quite place you. This is one reason why I like the anonymity of pseudonyms. One never knows for sure who one is talking with. I don't mind saying that I am excited by your analysis of my method of teaching. I, myself, am partially here in order to put a puzzle together. At some point in time, some group of people will put it all together. From the depths of my heart, I want to be blessed to participate in the receiving and the doing of all truth. The real truth comes from many sources. So, I need others if I ever hope to receive all truth. I need Simpleman, I need Stranger, I need Bratu, I need ImAHebrew, I need Seventh Angel, I need Sandy, I need you all :D, and you know what? You all need me :).

You are correct about me being stretched a little thin. Writing is difficult for me. I have always felt that expressing oneself through the written word is the closest thing that a man can do to giving birth. It is quite painful, but boy can it sure reap some tremendous rewards. I will work to honor your requests. Thank you for your patience!

May you and yours also be blessed.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Ishshah Yir'iyayh,

:) I will be happy when someone shortens your name. I am paranoid about names. I once talked with DeAnna for months before I learned how to spell her name correctly. I actually typed your name while going back and forth several times to make sure that I was spelling it correctly. I know; I need to learn how to copy and paste. I am so happy to see you at this forum, Ishshah. You are most welcome to this thread! You have heart. The spirit is also strong within you. You are a good man :) to stand next to in a fight.

I suppose that there could be a few things off topic in the teaching of Israel, but I don't think that we need to worry about that right now. Even so, when I am focused, it is a difficult task to get me off topic. Anyways, I am delighted to make your acquaintance. Again, welcome to this forum!!

Ishshah, are you certain that all sin offerings are female?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

are you certain that all sin offerings are female?<font color=green>I too am wondering concerning this. I do not understand that statement.</font>

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

In regards to the Lamb being a sin offering:

Leviticus 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.

Lev 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin
7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.

Here we see there are other sin offerings, But they are not Lambs.

3532 kebes {keh-bes'} • from an unused root meaning to dominate; a ram (just old enough to butt)

Some of the other Lamb scriptures are actually RAM and not Lamb:A misinterpretation. I find this important because of Daniels prophecy of the Ram and the hegoat. The hegoat waxes great and four horns come from it. This is another issue I have with the Lamb as a sin offering. It was a Ram that replaced Isaac on the Altar. And the Lamb, when used, was supposed to be one years old. I just don't see how Iesous is that Lamb.

Let me take a moment to explain to Sandy where I satnd with the Iesous, Y'shua things. I don't think they are the same. I said that Iesous said he came in the father's name. Thus, if Jesus was a true name and Messiah, then his name would have been Y'shua coming in the name of Yah (ie. Yah's Salvation) In the case of Iesous, he comes in the name of Zues or Theos - Greek gods. In the Old Testament it says WAIT. After this research of the lamb and the goat today, I will definately wait.

Lev 14:10 And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil.

A ewe lamb is a female. Here it is a burnt offering and not a sin offering, however.

Numbers 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

A ewe lamb for a sin offering.
Here are other scriptures for sin offerings:

Exod. 29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.

Exod. 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it

Exod. 30:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

Lev. 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

Lev. 4: 8 And he shall take off from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,

Lev. 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.
22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his
blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement
for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and
the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:

A Male Goat? Yet this scripture is very confusing because the word used for goat is a female goat, but then it is followed by requesting a male.

5795 `ez {aze} • 1) female goat, she-goat, goat, kid

Leviticus 5: 6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.
8 And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide it asunder:
9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.
12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.
13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
14 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver,
after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it
not, and it shall be forgiven him.
19 It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

Lev. 6:30 And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire

Lev. 8:2 Take Aaron and his sons with him, and the garments, and the anointing oil, and a bullock for the sin offering, and two rams, and a basket of unleavened bread;

Lev. 8: 14 And he brought the bullock for the sin offering: and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the bullock for the sin offering.

Lev. 9:10 But the fat, and the kidneys, and the caul above the liver of the sin offering, he burnt upon the altar; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev. 9:15 And he brought the people's offering, and took the goat, which was the sin offering for the people, and slew it, and offered it for sin, as the first.

Now, here is the goat for a sin offering again. If Iesous is the goat and not the Lamb, then much has been revealed.
Here are the scriptures with goat as a sin offering.

Lev. 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

Lev. 9: 15 And he brought the people's offering, and took the goat, which was the sin offering for the people, and slew it, and offered it for sin, as the first.

Lev. 10:16 And Moses diligently sought the goat of the sin offering,

Lev. 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

Lev. 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before
the mercy seat:
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that
remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Well, my friends, this concludes my search. This explains Daniel and the cleansing of the sanctuary by the goat. Iesous is the hegoat and that which overthrew the Ram and cleanses the sanctuary as the Abomination. Mysterious but true.

Lev. 16:27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their
skins, and their flesh, and their dung.

Num. 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

Now we have here a she-goat.

Num. 28: 22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.

Num. 29: 22 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.

Num. 29:31 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

Num. 29:34 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

8163 sa`iyr {saw-eer'} or sa`ir {saw-eer'} • from 08175; TWOT - 2274c,2274e • AV - kid 28, goat 24, devil 2, satyr 2, hairy 2, rough 1; 59 • adj 1) hairy n m 2) he-goat, buck 2a) as sacrificial animal 2b) satyr, may refer to a demon
possessed goat like the swine of Gadara (Mt. 8:30-32)

Praise Yah, bless-ed is the Yah of Israel who reveals to them who seek His Truth.

Num. 29: 38 And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.

Ezek. 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

Other sin offerings:

Lev. 12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the
tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:
7 Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.

Lev. 12:8 And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she
shall be clean.

Lev. 14: 22 And two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.

There is more but it is time to stop.
Sandy, I will answers your other questions at another time, Yah willing, and I am sure he is, but say not what we will do tomorrow.

Ishshah Yir'iyayh

PS. Spying, you can't call me Ish, because that means man, although you called me man already with a smiley next to it. I am woman.....You can't call me Yir'iyayh alone without the woman part because it is actually a man's name - Oh My!. I will pray that Yah gives you the talent to cut and paste :)

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

In regards to the Lamb being a sin offering:

[Spying]

Hi Phinehas,

Thank you for your response. I see that you still are insisting that the puzzle can be put together in a helter skelter fashion. If the scriptures are all equal, that would most certainly be possible, but the scriptures are not all equal. Messiah was asked, and we will entertain his answer shortly:
Matt 22:36
36 <font color="blue">Master, which is the great commandment in the law?</font color> (KJV)Now, according to your expressed opinion, Messiah should have answered in this fashion: "You, Sir, know full well that all the words of YAH are equal. Why do you ask me which one is great?" Phinehas, Messiah did not answer in that fashion. Messiah rather said:
Matt 22:37-40
37 Yahushua said unto him, <font color="red">Thou shalt love the YAHWEH thy ELOHIM with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. </font color>
38 <font color="red">This is the first and great commandment.</font color>
39 <font color="red">And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.</font color>
40 <font color="red">On these two commandments <B>hang</b> all the law and the prophets.</font color> (KJV)So, if one part of the Law is greater than another, and all the Law and the Prophets depend upon that greater part, you stand on shaky ground when you insist that all the Word of YAH is equal, and that the Law is not foundational. You cannot close your eyes and ears to what the Law says and teach anything you want about Messiah with impunity.

Messiah was born under the Law. He was subject to the Law. The Law plainly commands:
Deut 4:1-2
1 <font color="blue">Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the YAHWEH ELOHIM of your fathers giveth you.</font color>
2 <font color="blue">Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the YAHWEH your ELOHIM which I command you.</font color> (KJV)So, here is the deal! If you teach Messiah from Isaiah 53 in a manner which contradicts the teaching of the Law, you are not teaching Messiah according to the Scriptures. If you are not teaching Messiah according to the Scriptures, you no doubt are teaching a false Gospel. If that should prove to be the case, then you deserve to be pinned to the ground with your own spear!

There are many false teachings which abound concerning Messiah. The belief that YAH killed his son in the stead of mankind to pay our penalty for our sins is contrary to what the Law teaches. The Law does not allow for such an eventuality.

As you do fully recognize, we must be willing to entertain and determine what Isaiah 53 means, but we are not going to discover the true meaning by ignoring the Law.

Sincerely, Spying

[Phinehas]

Spying,

I trust your Sabbath was enjoyable and refreshing.

Do I think the puzzle can be put together in a helter skelter fashion? By no means. Let me ask you a question Spying. Is your placement in the body superior to mine, or mine to yours? Perhaps in position, but certainly not in purpose.


1 Corinthians
12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but Elohim hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part
which lacked:
12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
12:27 Now ye are the body of the Messiah, and members in particular.
12:28 And Yahweh hath set some in the assembly, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of
healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

As you have already recognized, we all work as one to accomplish the will of the Father. We need one another. Are some parts more honorable? Do some parts do more work? Do some parts take a position of prominence, while other parts offer support? Of course all of this is true. Now I see the same pattern in the Word. Of course there is a foundation upon which we build. Of course we build upon the law, of which Messiah is the personification. None of this negates the fact that every piece of the puzzle must fit. Spying you, no doubt, have much to offer in your teaching. My goal is to get you to present it in a manner that is palatable.

As I already said, I’m not necessarily adversarial to you teaching about Yahshua’s death. But even as you strive to present it from a firm foundation, you don’t address the most basic objection many have to your position. Perhaps your teaching is just too complicated for an internet forum. Experience tells me that sometimes a foundational teaching needs to be presented in person during the course of several sabbaths. Sometimes the intricacies are missed when we can’t hear the voice inflections, or see the facial expressions of the one conveying the teaching. Remember, just as you earned the respect of the Tzaddikim, you must earn the respect of those who view your thoughts in this forum.

Far be it from me to teach anything, but the true gospel! Far be it from me to say we should ignore the law. Nevertheless, Isaiah 53 is THE stumbling block for most who question your perception of Messiah. I’m just asking that you show us Isaiah 53, not as a stumbling block to your view, but as support for it. I know Isaiah 53 must stand upon the foundation. My desire is for you to show us how. Since you initiated this thread we expect you to lead the way. Perhaps if your desire isn’t strong enough, Yahweh will raise up someone else to do the job.

May you be blessed as you report what you’ve seen.

With much love brotherly love,

Phinehas

[Spying]

Hi Simpleman,

Good morning to you. Yours is a very good question! I may not fully know what you are thinking, but I think I know what you are asking. Indeed, what do we do with the sacrifices that are offered and killed by the High Priest?

If Yahushua is the fulfillment of all the animal sacrifices, and if Yahushua is the High Priest, then at some point in time, we should be able to ascertain that Messiah offered himself, should we not? Here is some of what the Law requires of the High Priest on the Day of Atonement:
Lev 16:11
11 <font color="blue">And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall <B>kill</b> the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:</font color> (KJV)

Lev 16:15
15 <font color="blue">Then shall he <B>kill</b> the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:</font color (KJV)Now, someone, let's say someone like Sandy, can look at these two requirements and object that Messiah could not be both the bullock and the goat because the Law requires that the bullock and the goat to be slain at two different times. Obviously, Messiah only died once. So, how could Messiah in his death be the fulfillment of both? Another, like Ishshah Yir'iyayh, could claim that Messiah is the fulfillment of the male offerings above, but Messiah could not be the fulfillment of the female offerings because Messiah was a man and not a woman. On a similar note, the sacrifice of the Red Heifer takes place not at the altar like the bullock and the goat, but outside the camp away from the altar. How, could Messiah's death on the Cross be considered both within and without the camp? A Chief Priest, not the High Priest, officiates at the offering of the Red Heifer. So, now we have different priests involved, and not only do we have a problem of time, we also have a tremendous problem of place in the fulfillment of the Law. This becomes a logistical nightmare when we consider all these needs in order that the Law might receive its fulfillment (in order that all the pieces of the puzzle might fit in place).

Now, the letter to the Hebrews was written to partially answer some of these criticisms. I do not have the expertise and insight to explain how everything fits together in the fulfillment of the Law, but I think I know that in order for the Law to receive its fulfillment, <B>in Messiah</b>, mankind becomes one, time also becomes one, place becomes one, and the priesthood becomes one, and YAHWEH becomes one with man. This all happens according to the working of Messiah who said:
John 4:34
34 <font color="blue">Yahushua saith unto them,</font color> <font color="red">My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.</font color> (KJV)Messiah saw the Word of YAH and especially the TORAH of YAH as an expression of the will of YAH. The goal to fulfill the Law and the Prophets was food for Messiah. We eat physical food in order to live. Messiah understood that eternal life comes from eating spiritual food. If we begin to eat this food, we have eternal life. In other words, those who are doing the will of the Father, do have eternal life. So, it would behoove us all, if we do have the desire for life, to learn about the will of the Father, and not only to learn, but also to eat as did Messiah. How do we begin? We begin by learning though the spirit of YAH concerning those things which belong to YAH, HIS thoughts, HIS will, HIS FOOD (Leviticus 3:16). After we begin to learn, we begin to eat. I am eating right now by writing on this forum.

When did I begin to learn? I began by taking very seriously the Law. Why? I was forced to. I had no choice in the matter. When Messiah revealed himself to me in Numbers 19, I had no choice but to take the Law seriously. I had no choice but to understand that every dot of the Law is important. Nothing about the Law is to be discarded; rather, it all must be fulfilled in a manner that takes into account everything required. This is the majesty of the glorious faith of Messiah, and it is also the reason I reject as false, the substitutional teaching of this world concerning the work of the author and finisher of our faith, Messiah Yahushua.

May your day be blessed.

Sincerely, Spying

[LoveforYah]

Shalom to all

This is my first post on this Forum and i hope and pray not the last one.... The question whether all Israel should be saved has been on my mind lately.... i do not know whether i am a physical israel or not, but i do thank my Heavenly Father Yahweh for changing me to a spiritual Israel, HalleluYah!!!!

My heart rejoices to see so many people that want to know our Heavenly Father who loved us so much that gave HIS only BEGOTTEN son that everyone who believes in Yahshua will not die but live for ever. I thank Yahweh every day for saving me. For giving me the opportunity to know HIM the Creator of Heaven and Earth as my Father, my Abba, My Tatus (daddy in polish). What i am going to share with you tonight HE has shown to me some months ago. This post has been posted on EliYah's forum when the question of Yahshua being our Passover Lamb was discussed. Some of you already have already experienced what i am about to share with you and what Yah bids me to share again.

Yes, Yahshua is our Passover Lamb. We all know the story of Exodus.... However, i have just noticed in chapter 12 verses 3,4 "...every man a lamb, according to their father's house, a lamb for a HOUSEHOLD: and if the HOUSEHOLD is LITTLE for a lamb, then shall he and his neighbour next to his house take one according to the number of the souls:..." Well, what Yahweh showed me is all of our households are to small for the lamb therefore we are to "eat it" with our neighbours (brothers and sisters) Verse 6 says "...and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at evening. And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side posts and on the two side posts and on the lintel, upon the house in which they shall eat it". Yahshua was nailed to the cross with His hands (2 posts) and HE was put a crown of thorn on HIS forhead (lintel of the house - our body). So.... Yahshua represents the door... John 10 7-11 "Yahshua therefore said to them again, truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep/ All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did ot hear them. I AM THE DOOR; BY ME IF ANY MAN ENTER IN, HE SHALL BE SAVED, AND SHALL GO IN AND GO OUT, AND SHALL FIND PASTURE. The thief come not, but that he may stal, and kill, and destroy: I came that may have life, and may have it abundantly. I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD: THE GOOD SHEPHERD LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR THE SHEEP." Thank you my Heavenly Father for Yahshua, for the door which we can come to you....Yahshua, thank you for dying for me.... Thank you for letting me in and be saved and come in and find pasture..... Thank you for being my Shepherd.
Yahweh also told the Israel to put HIS commandments on the door-posts of their house... It was shown to me the we are Yahweh's tabernacle... what a privilage for us to have the Allmighty One live in us through Yahshua the Messiah. Deut. 6; 4-9 "Hear, O Israel, Yahweh is our Elohim, Yahweh is one, and you shall love Yahweh your El with all your heart, and with all your sould and with all you might. And these word, which I cammnd you THIS DAY, shall be upon your Heart (door of our house=our heart) and you shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in you hour, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up (DBR).And you shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they sahll be frotlets between your eyes. An you shall write them on the door-posts of your house and on your gates"

In Gen. 4;7 Yahweh tells Adam very clearly that "if you do well, shall it not be lifted up? and if you do not well, sin crouches at the door...." Sin crouches at the door.... i by Yah's, mercy must stay behind the door, "behind Yahshua". Yahshua must be before me... "i must decrease so HE will increase". My prayer is that i will always stay in Yah's tabernacle... Luke 24;52-53 ...and they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy and were CONTINUALLY in the TEMPLE, blessing YAHWEH". HALLELUYAH, Praise Yahweh for giving us the the privilage to be with HIM. For giving me Yahshua to live day by day, but not i but Yahshua through me.

I have read this all those posts tonight, and i must admit that there are some things that i do not understand. One this i am certain though is that by HIS grace only i did know that i am guilty of Yahshua's death as much as the pharasees. Although i was not there i did it when i came to an age of distinguishing between good and evil. Yet i did not know HIS name, i knew He gave HIS only SOn for me, a sinner.... Today, by HIS mercy and grace i am HIS daughter... i am saved by HIS Passover. Yahshua my and yours Redeemer has shed HIS blood for me.
Another thing that i don't quite understand yet is me sacrificing Yahshua. Through my walk with HIM i knew i had to sacrifice myself, i know "i" had to die in order to live in HIM.... The sacrifice that "i had to" make was something that i held very dear to my hart...i had to sacrifice my family... When Yahweh first showed me that i must be cleansed by Yahshua's blood for what i have done i did not quite understand... i knew if i do what Yahweh is asking me to do i will loose what i loved the most...that was my family...but, HALLELUYAH !!!! i came clean and just like Abraham got his son back so did i, i got my family back.... I truly don't know if i could sacrifice Yahshua now, for i do believe i have done it not knowingly for i was still a sinner when i realized that it was my SIN that KILLED Yahshua. It was my SIN that caused YAHWEH great pain. I know one thing that Yahweh requiers of man "but doing justly, loving mercy, walking humbly with Yahweh my El".... For it says in the Bible that Yahweh does not desire sacrifices, but HE desires mercy. David says in Psalm 51; 16-17 "for you delight not in sacrifice, else i would give it; You have no pleasrue in burnt-offerings. The sacrifices of Elohim are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O Elohim, you will not depsise". Paul in Hebrews writes, Hebr. 10; 12-20 "but HE , when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of Yahweh; from now on waiting until his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. For by ONE OFFERING he has perfected forever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after he has said, This is the covenant that I will make with them, after those days, says Yahweh, I will put my laws on their heart, and upon their mind also will i write them and their iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Yahshua (door)by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say HIS FLESH" HalleluYah!!! "through the veil" "through the door" we can enter Yahweh's Sabbath... HalleluYah. Paul talks about that in Hebr. 4 7-10 "He again defines a certain day "today" sayin in David so long a time afterward, today if you shall hear his voice harden not your hearts. FOr Yahshua had given them rest he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the pople of Yahweh. For he that is entered (through the "door" Yahshua) into his rest has himself rested from his works, as Yahweh did from his" for we only have "TODAY AND NOW". Thank you Yahweh for Sabbath... Thank you for rest.... Thank you for all your blessings to your children....

Well, Shalom to all again

Yahweh bless you and keep you and may HIS wonderfull face shine upon you all

your sister in Yahshua
Dorota

[Spying]

Hi Phinehas,

Why do I feel like I have just been put in my place, whatever my place in the Body may be? :) I am beginning to like you, Phinehas. I have hit you several times now just about as hard as I can hit someone, and you calmly keep coming back for more.

Whatever position I occupy in the Body, it is a position of service. It is my hope to serve rather than to be served. I agree with you fully that no one within the Body is indispensable. We can all be replaced. So, through and by the grace of YAH, I strive to serve. I pray often that I be granted the privilege to complete my service, the duty to which I have been called.

I share your concern about the viability of an internet only ministry. There is much gain through the spoken word that cannot be readily attained through the written word as you do note. Our teaching is really from our point of view no different than Paul's. Paul is very difficult to understand, and so are the Tzaddikim. We are still working through many things, and we are going to work through many things on this forum. We are aware and know that we must keep it simple, that we must state things over and over and over again, and still we run a great risk of not being understood, but here is the kicker, someday many of us will be blessed to meet face to face. DeAnna can tell you that such meetings bear much fruit because we have all struggled beforehand to understand each other through the written word.

Concerning Isaiah 53, allow me to offer my humble opinion, but remember, it is only the opinion of one. The opinion of two or three is far better than one. I have struggled thus far internally within myself concerning whether or not Messiah obtained his goal of spiritually fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. In other words, I have deeply questioned whether or not the puzzle has been put together. Paul seems to be also of a contrary opinion. Paul made this statement concerning the Law:
Rom 4:15
15 <font color="blue">Because <B>the law worketh wrath</b>: for where no law is, there is no transgression</font color>. (KJV)I understand this statement to mean that the very purpose of the Law is to get someone in trouble. The Law is not laid down for the righteous. It comes into being because sinners are sinners, and sinners need to get in trouble. They need to be punished and cleansed . This should be applicable in both a physical and spiritual sense. Now, Messiah asks this rhetorical question while suffering on the Cross:
Mark 15:34
34 <font color="blue">And at the ninth hour Yahushua cried with a loud voice, saying,</font color> <font color="red">Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?</font color><font color="blue"> which is, being interpreted,</font color><font color="red"> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?</font color> (KJV)The above question could very well indicate to all of us that something has gone wrong. On the other hand, the substitutionalists believe that everything is progressing as planned, that YAH turns HIS back on Messiah because Messiah is suffering in the stead of all of us (in the spirit of how Isaiah 53 is commonly interpreted), and absolutely no mercy must be shown to sinners, so of necessity Messiah must suffer alone. Now, I reject the substitutional aspect of this teaching, but I do not reject the idea that everything is progressing as planned. I do know for certain that Messiah becomes one with all sinners in his suffering and death, that the Cross is a vehicle whereby all sinners are put to death. For now, just allow in your mind that it is possible that this is so. So, if everything is progressing as planned, why does YAH forsake Messiah? There are a number of possibilities. Messiah was totally innocent. YAHWEH does not approve of the innocent being punished. Another possibility could very well be that Messiah, by following his goal to fulfill the LAW, was forced to bring all of mankind into the spiritual Temple of YAH thereby bringing about its desecration. These are the type of issues that must be settled in my mind before we categorically state what Isaiah 53 means.

Paul makes this statement:
Col 1:24-25
24 <font color="blue">Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Messiah in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:</font color>
25 <font color="blue">Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of ELOHIM which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of ELOHIM;</font color> (KJV)This is really an interesting statement which also must be considered in determining what Isaiah 53 means.

So, Phinehas, there you have the scope of my present thinking about Isaiah 53. I hope it has been helpful to you and others. I am going to post below a translation of Isaiah 53 made by Hyssop.

Sincerely Spying

ISAIAH

Chapter 53

<font color="blue">1 Who has believed our report? And upon whom has the power (lit. forearm) of H' been revealed?

2 And he grew up before Him (lit. to his face) as a sapling, and as a root from dry earth; he has no form and no glory. And we would see him, and there is no sight (vision, appearance), and we would desire him.

3 Despised and rejected of men, a man of pains and known of sickness (disease). And he looks as hiding his face from us (could be "from him"), despised and we did not esteem (consider/think) him.

4 Surely, our sicknesses he carried and our pains (sufferings), he suffered (endured) them. And we considered (thought) him infected (contaminated), struck of Elohim, and tortured.

5 And he is desecrated from our crimes, oppressed (depressed) from our iniquities. The torture (chastisement) of our peace is upon him, and in his wound (or in his company) we were healed (lit. it was healed to us).

6 All of us, as sheep, have gotten lost; a man to his way, we have turned. And H' harmed in him with the iniquity of all of us.

7 He was oppressed, and he was consenting (he did not resist), and he will not open his mouth: as a lamb to the slaughter, he will be led, and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb. And he will not open his mouth.

8 From rule and from judgement he was taken, and with his generation who will converse? Because he was cut (lit. verdicted) from the land of life, from the sin of my people (Isaiah's people) a blow/stroke is to him.

9 And one gave his grave among the wicked and his deaths among the rich. Upon no wrong he did, and no deceit is in his mouth.

10 And H' desires to oppress him; he made him sick (lit. he made sick) if his soul will put guilt, he will see a seed, he will lengthen days. And the desire of H' in his hand will succeed.

11 From the travail of his soul he will see; he will be satisfied (lit.satiated). In the knowledge of him, my servant will make righteous a righteous one to the many. And their iniquities he will endure.

12 Therefore, I will distribute him among the many, and he will distribute the mighty as spoil (could be understood as "he will distribute the spoil among the mighty"); because he poured out his soul to death and with sinners he was counted. And he carried the sin of many and for the sinners he will intercede.</font color>

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying wrote:
<font color=black>Rom 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. (KJV)

I understand this statement to mean that the very purpose of the Law is to get someone in trouble. The Law is not laid down for the righteous. It comes into being because sinners are sinners, and sinners need to get in trouble. They need to be punished and cleansed...
</font>

You want us to believe that the LAW (Torah) of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> causes wrath.

What a contradiction to what it says in the Hebrew Scriptures:Jeremiah 31:33
...I will put My Law (Torah) in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim and they will be My people.

Genesis 6:4-5 (Abraham had the Torah)
...And all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves in your (Isaac) seed,
WHY?
because Abraham LISTENED TO MY VOICE and KEPT My charge, My commands, My statutes AND My Torah.

Deuteronomy 30:10-19
10) For you SHALL LISTEN TO THE VOICE OF <font color=purple>YHUH</font> your Elohim, and KEEP His commands and His statutes which are written in this book of Torah. For you shall turn back toward <font color=purple>YHUH</font> your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul.
15) Behold, I have set before you TODAY LIFE and good, and death and evil,
16) because I am commanding you TODAY to love <font color=purple>YHUH</font> your Elohim, to walk in His way, to KEEP His commands, His statutes, His judgments, and you shall live...
17) But, if you turn away your heart and if you do not listen and are drawn away, bowing down to other elohim, serving them;
18) I have declared to you TODAY that you shall surely perish...
19) ...Therefore choose life...According to this the Torah gives life, but Paul says it causes wrath.
Psalm 19:7
The Torah of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> is perfect (complete, true) converting the soul

Psalm 119:142
<font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> Torah is steadfast (firm, true, sure)

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Spying
Now, Messiah asks this rhetorical question while suffering on the Cross:[quote]Mark 15:34
34 <font color="blue">And at the ninth hour Yahushua cried with a loud voice, saying,</font color> <font color="red">Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?</font color><font color="blue"> which is, being interpreted,</font color><font color="red"> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?</font color> (KJV)
<font color=green>BUT WHICH ACCOUNT IS CORRECT???
There are three completely different versions.

Matthew 27:46
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani...

Mark 15:34
Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabachthani...

Luke 23:46
Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit...

John 19:30
It is completed/finished...

[Spying]

Hi LoveforYah,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your comments on this thread. I know that you do love him for your story is similar to my own. Some of us, and I don't know why, are required to be willing to give up everything that we love as we are coming to know YAH or rather as Paul says "to be known by HIM". When we show our willingness to lose on HIS behalf, we suddenly gain back what we think that we have lost and then generally also receive much more. I don't know for certain, but I think that both you and I suffer from lack of faith, and YAH gives us such experiences to build and increase our faith. Thank you, YAH, for my sister, Dorota!

Spiritual life is the reward of those who are engaged in spiritual activity. As Sandy has noted above, the Law requires that we choose life rather than death. The problem for all of us on this thread including Sandy is that we have chosen death. All of us have engaged in evil activity and thereby deserve death. And what we all have chosen will come to pass. All of us will die. All have died from Messiah to the present because all have chosen sin.

Now, most of us on this thread believe that the life and work of Messiah have made a difference in this rather bleak situation. If all have died from Messiah to the present, what has changed? If all presently on this forum will die in the future, what has changed? Whether we believe or don't believe that Messiah Yahushua has made a difference, we all still suffer the same fate, don't we? We all still die. Yes, the Law does still work wrath, and our physical deaths prove that this working is still very much alive.

Now, most of us believe that faith makes a difference in this situation, don't we? Sandy believes that all she has to do is wait for the Messiah to come along to show her what she must do, and then she will chose to do it, and Sandy will now suddenly have life because the Law is now suddenly working peace for her. She doesn't believe that she is really required to keep the Law right now because she doesn't really know how, but when Messiah comes, she will be shown how to keep it. She better hope that Messiah comes before she dies, doesn't she? The Law works wrath.

Now, Dorota, you and I are different. We believe that Messiah has come, and we believe that he has made a difference. And we have proven by our actions that Messiah has made a difference in our lives. The Law promises life to those who choose life. You chose to give up everything important to you to follow after that life. What have you received back in return? It is very obvious to me to you have received insight into the spiritual. Why? Obviously, so that you can walk according to the spiritual. If you want physical life, you must keep the Law perfectly in a physical sense. Likewise, if you desire spiritual life (eternal life), then you must keep the Law perfectly in a spiritual sense. We are what we eat or do.

So, how is it that you and I begin to keep the Law in a spiritual sense? We do it through faith, Dorota. If you truly believe that your sin killed Messiah Yahushua as you have written, look at what you have accomplished by that admission. Just look in the Law and read all of the requirements demanded of the sinner. The sinner must bring a sacrifice. He or she must bring it at a certain time at a certain place under the authority of a certain priesthood. You have accomplished all these requirements through Messiah, but here is the real kicker, in order for you to take advantage of this grace, you are forced to admit that you are a sinner, and you are forced to admit that you did through your sin take part in the execution of an innocent man. This is a horrible predicament that you are now in if YAH lets you see these things. If you in faith accept this grace, what are you now doing? Strange as this may sound, you are now walking according to the Law in a spiritual sense from your heart in faith. YAH has taken the requirements of the Law and the work of Messiah and the very thing that is most natural to all of us, our sin, and meshed them all together to create a pathway for us in our walk towards eternal life. So, we all begin our spiritual walk in Messiah through faith by grace as Paul does teach, but this is not a substitutional righteousness as Satan and the world would have you believe. It is the real thing. I am not proud of what I did to Messiah, but I am eternally grateful for what YAH and Messiah have done for me through their grace. I am grateful for the spiritual walk that they have began in me. I am thankful for my eternal life, and for your eternal life, my sister. Welcome to this forum!

Sincerely, Spying

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

This is a most profound scripture in lue of the present discussion.
<font color="#990099">
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.</font>

But before I go into that, one must consider death and what death is. It is a disease and decay. When the serpent was lifted up on the pole in the wilderness, it was a serpent which overcame the serpent bite. The same antidote cures. This death, begets life. The poison saved from the very same poison. This is why the hegoat saves and cleanses the sanctuary. He who has the keys to death and hell, is the serpent lifted up on a pole to cure from death and hell. This is were Messiah is Prince of the Abomination. The Abomination heals the abomination. Now, let it be known that I am convinced that Christ is not Y'shua. There are two Anointed Branches of the Olive Tree that are by the Lord of the whole Earth. There are two cherubs over the Mercy Seat. The Branch Israel awaits for, has not come yet. There are some Ambassadors of the Kingdom who do know this Branch however.

In regards to Hebrews 6, going past the Doctrine of Christ/death/serpent lifted up on a pole, there is perfection. The reason that Yah must permit, is because these things are on the other side of the cross and are given. Unless you first fully die, then walk in the Spirit, and hear the words, "Well done" you will not be given these riches in glory. You can no longer just stand at the gate, but must enter therein and that means giving up the world and the doctrine.

Spying, you say that we must be willing to give up. Here is a prime example of moving on to perfection. One must give up the Doctrine of Christ. This mystery can only be know by those who have been given entrance into the Kingdom. These are those who see the Kingdom before physical death.
<font color="#990099">
Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. </font>

But you cannot teach this until you are given permission to live it. It is the latter rain teachings, and the teachers are now being taught and prepared to teach this message.

In this walk of Jordan unto Jerusalem, we could say it is the second mile of Y'shua, in a sense. It is here we are turned over to the Father's care and no longer in need of an intecessor. It is here that the Law begins to be written on the heart. It is here that a person is one with the Father and not just in visitations, but in countinence and the fulness of the Godhead Bodily, made in his Image. Oh, I can still fall. But truely every temptation has an escape. Here is sinlessness, even while in the body still.

Now this makes for a strange New Covenant Doctrine: Beyond the doctrine of Christ is the Doctrine of the Father restored. Look at David's words:
<font color="#990099">
Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
</font>
Of course we must also recognize that restoration takes time and in this time of El is Yah (Elijah, the latter rain begins to pour down. The treachers are still necessary however. The sacrifice will be restored later. Yah quit accepting it because of the filth of Israel in their worship to Baal. They too had fallen into unbelief.
<font color="#660066">
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.</font>

So all are correct but not in the fullness. One says Law, and yes the Law will be restored, but not without the broken heart and contrite spirit, for pride must diminish, although Paul did express an exempt:
<font color="#990099">
2 Co 10: 8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
</font>
But when the New Covenant Law on the Heart is said to be a Spiritual application, a writing on the heart, not the stone, does this mean that the application will also be different? Will this law take on a different meaning in an esoteric sense verses literal sense? We do not yet know. But the Law will return nonetheless. And according to David, restored as before, given by clean priests.

In Yah's Majestic Service
He who riddeth upon the heavens, not in them.
Ishshah Yir'iyayh

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying wrote:

<font color=black>Now, most of us believe that faith makes a difference in this situation, don't we? Sandy believes that all she has to do is wait for the Messiah to come along to show her what she must do, and then she will chose to do it, and Sandy will now suddenly have life because the Law is now suddenly working peace for her. She doesn't believe that she is really required to keep the Law right now because she doesn't really know how, but when Messiah comes, she will be shown how to keep it. She better hope that Messiah comes before she dies, doesn't she? The Law works wrath.</font> Spying believes that all he has to do is believe that the Messiah came along and died for him, therefore he automatically has life because the Law is now working peace for him. Paul said so and therefore it has to be true. It doesn't matter to him what <font color=purple>YHUH</font> says.
Exodus 32:30-35
30) And it happened on the next day, Moses said to the people, You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to <font color=purple>YHUH</font>. Perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.
31) And Moses went back to <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and said, Oh, this people has sinned a great sin, and they have made for themselves elohy of gold.
32) And now if you will, lift up their sin. And if not, I pray, blot me out from your book which you have written.
33) And <font color=purple>YHUH</font> said to Moses, The one who has sinned against me, I will blot him from my book.

Ezekiel 18
4) Behold, all the souls are mine. As the soul of the father and the soul of the son they are mine. The soul that sins it shall die.
5) And a man that is upright and does that which is just and right;
6) Who has not eaten on the mountains; and his eyes have not lifted up to the idols of the house of Israel; and has not defiled his neighbor's wife and not come near to a menstruating woman;
7) and has not oppressed a man; he who returns his pledge to the debtor and has not robbed by robbery; has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the naked with clothing;
8) he who has not loaned on interest and has not taken increase; he has kept his hand from injustice, having done true justice between man and man;
9) he who has walked in my statutes and has kept my judgments to deal truly. He is upright and surely he shall live, declares <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.

20) The soul that sins, it shall die. A son SHALL NOT bear the iniquity of the father and a father SHALL NOT bear the iniquity of the son. The uprightness of the upright shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
21) And the wicked, if he will turn from all his sins which he has done and keep all my statutes and do justice and uprightness, surely he shall live; he shall not die.
22) All his transgressions that he has done, they shall not be mentioned to him, in his uprightness he shall live. I will not listen to Paul. I choose <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.
Psalm 37
3) Trust in <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and do good; live in the land and feed on faithfulness.
4) And delight yourself in <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, that he may give you your hearts desire.
5) Roll your way on <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and trust in him and his work.
6) And he will bring forth your uprightness like the light; and your judgment like the noonday.
7) Rest in <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and wait patiently for him...
8) Abstain from anger and cease from fury; also do not inflame yourself toward evil.
9) For evildoers shall be cut off; and the ones waiting on <font color=purple>YHUH</font> will possess the earth.
10) But yet a little and the wicked is not...
11) The humble shall possess the earth and shall delight themselves in abundant peace.
Even though it says in the Hebrew Scriptures that the Torah is what converts our soul
Psalm 19:7
The Torah of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> is perfect (complete, true) converting the soul
Spying wishes us to believe that the Torah of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> (which is to be written on the hearts of his people) works wrath.

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying wrote:

<font color=black>Now, most of us believe that faith makes a difference in this situation, don't we? Sandy believes that all she has to do is wait for the Messiah to come along to show her what she must do, and then she will chose to do it, and Sandy will now suddenly have life because the Law is now suddenly working peace for her. She doesn't believe that she is really required to keep the Law right now because she doesn't really know how, but when Messiah comes, she will be shown how to keep it. She better hope that Messiah comes before she dies, doesn't she? The Law works wrath.</font> Spying believes that all he has to do is believe that the Messiah came along and died for him, therefore he automatically has life because the Law is now working peace for him. Paul said so and therefore it has to be true. It doesn't matter to him what <font color=purple>YHUH</font> says.
Exodus 32:30-35
30) And it happened on the next day, Moses said to the people, You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to <font color=purple>YHUH</font>. Perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.
31) And Moses went back to <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and said, Oh, this people has sinned a great sin, and they have made for themselves elohy of gold.
32) And now if you will, lift up their sin. And if not, I pray, blot me out from your book which you have written.
33) And <font color=purple>YHUH</font> said to Moses, The one who has sinned against me, I will blot him from my book.

Ezekiel 18
4) Behold, all the souls are mine. As the soul of the father and the soul of the son they are mine. The soul that sins it shall die.
5) And a man that is upright and does that which is just and right;
6) Who has not eaten on the mountains; and his eyes have not lifted up to the idols of the house of Israel; and has not defiled his neighbor's wife and not come near to a menstruating woman;
7) and has not oppressed a man; he who returns his pledge to the debtor and has not robbed by robbery; has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the naked with clothing;
8) he who has not loaned on interest and has not taken increase; he has kept his hand from injustice, having done true justice between man and man;
9) he who has walked in my statutes and has kept my judgments to deal truly. He is upright and surely he shall live, declares <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.

20) The soul that sins, it shall die. A son SHALL NOT bear the iniquity of the father and a father SHALL NOT bear the iniquity of the son. The uprightness of the upright shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
21) And the wicked, if he will turn from all his sins which he has done and keep all my statutes and do justice and uprightness, surely he shall live; he shall not die.
22) All his transgressions that he has done, they shall not be mentioned to him, in his uprightness he shall live. I will not listen to Paul. I choose <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.
Psalm 37
3) Trust in <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and do good; live in the land and feed on faithfulness.
4) And delight yourself in <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, that he may give you your hearts desire.
5) Roll your way on <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and trust in him and his work.
6) And he will bring forth your uprightness like the light; and your judgment like the noonday.
7) Rest in <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and wait patiently for him...
8) Abstain from anger and cease from fury; also do not inflame yourself toward evil.
9) For evildoers shall be cut off; and the ones waiting on <font color=purple>YHUH</font> will possess the earth.
10) But yet a little and the wicked is not...
11) The humble shall possess the earth and shall delight themselves in abundant peace.
Even though in the Hebrew Scriptures it says the Torah is what converts our soul
Psalm 19:7
The Torah of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> is perfect (complete, true) converting the soul
Spying wishes us to believe that the Torah of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> (which is to be written on the hearts of his people) works wrath.

[Phinehas]

Spying,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on Isaiah 53. Sometimes, because our human reasoning gets in our way we have a difficult time understanding the spiritual thought processes of Yahweh our father. Nevertheless, we both know it is ultimately necessary to fully understand His thoughts, to be one with Him as Yahshua is. That is the only way we will share eternity with Him. I've seen your thoughts on the red heifer. I too believe it points directly to Messiah. I hope you can eventually complete this picture you are striving to paint. Simpleman challenged you with some very good questions, that I, and I'm sure he :) would like you to respond to.

For now, I will leave this issue to you. It looks like you have several fires to control on this thread by those who presently have no inclination to accept the word of Yah in its fullness.

Phinehas

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Someday you are going to look back on you perception of the teaching/doctrine of Paul and be ashamed of the things that you have said against and about him. All of us deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt until we are absolutely convinced that further enlightenment would not change our perception. You rail against Paul, and I can tell you for a fact that you do not understand Paul, just like I can tell you for a fact that you do not understand the Tzaddikim. We don't hold that against you. You are powerless to understand concerning the things we teach because you mind has not been opened to understand them. That is not your fault. I do have great hope for you, and I believe that eventually you will understand. That will be a great day in my mind. :)

Paul is not a substitutionalist, and neither am I. No one can fulfill the Law for me in my stead. If someone can die in my stead, then they deserve to live in my stead. Should that be the case, then I would have no life. I want to live, Sandy, therefore, I take very seriously the Law. If the Law requires me to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy in order that I might have life, can I have life if I do not keep the Sabbath? No, not according to the Law. I am cursed if I do not keep the Sabbath. If the Law states that Sabbath breakers deserve to die, can I get around the Law by having someone die in my stead? No. The Law says choose life and live. It absolutely does not say "Let someone else die in you stead". You know that the Tzaddikim do not teach substitutionalism? At least, you should know if you do read what we write? If you read what we write and still you feel that we are teaching against the Law, you are bearing false witness against us and against Paul. We will gladly bear it patiently, but slander and false witness is still slander and false witness. Someday, the truth will be revealed.

Now, all that we are teaching is this: There is a physical keeping of the Law, and there is a spiritual keeping of the Law. If you are keeping the Law perfectly in a physical sense, then you have physical life. You will live. You will not die. No ifs, ands, and buts about it. Correspondingly, if you are keeping the Law perfectly in a spiritual sense, then you have spiritual life. Spiritual life is eternal. Either way, you only have or receive through your own doing. So, you are bearing false witness when you say that we teach that we have peace through the doing of someone else.

Obviously, you can look at your own life, and you can determine whether you are keeping the Law perfectly in a physical sense. On the Sabbath issue alone, you could be in big trouble, Sandy, if you should turn out to be wrong about what you practice. Wrong practice is not an excuse. You could be in big trouble about fasting on the Day of Atonement. Contrariness is not an excuse. Do you remove leaven from your home during the Days of Unleavened Bread? Only you and your practice determine whether you are going to live or die. Why not choose life?

Now, the difference between the Tzaddikim and yourself is one of focus. We believe that our focus must be on the spiritual keeping of the Law. Why? We desire more than just physical life. We desire eternal life. Look at the Sabbath Commandment in a spiritual sense. We believe that the spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath Day involves complete rest from sin. So, if I am fulfilling the Sabbath Day in a spiritual sense, I am keeping the Law in physical sense, am I not? I mean no one can rest from sin without remembering the Sabbath Day to keep it holy in a physical sense, and no one can rest from sin without physically fasting on the Day of Atonement. So, the Tzaddikim actually go up and beyond the call of duty with respect to many aspects of the physical keeping of the Law because, from the heart, it is our desire to rest from our actual physical sin.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying, because I responded in like-kind you accuse me of bearing false witness. Have you not written concerning me:
Sandy thinks this Sandy says this Sandy believes this way or that way and do you remember the one you wrote called Sandy speak You wrote:

<font color=black>Now, the difference between the Tzaddikim and yourself is one of focus. We believe that our focus must be on the spiritual keeping of the Law. Why? We desire more than just physical life. We desire eternal life. Look at the Sabbath Commandment in a spiritual sense. We believe that the spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath Day involves complete rest from sin. So, if I am fulfilling the Sabbath Day in a spiritual sense, I am keeping the Law in physical sense, am I not? I mean no one can rest from sin without remembering the Sabbath Day to keep it holy in a physical sense, and no one can rest from sin without physically fasting on the Day of Atonement. So, the Tzaddikim actually go up and beyond the call of duty with respect to many aspects of the physical keeping of the Law because, from the heart, it is our desire to rest from our actual physical sin.</font> <font color=black>Eternal life?</font>
Genesis 3:22-23
And <font color=purple>YHUH</font> elohim said, Behold, the adam has become as one of us (or like us), to know good and evil. And now turning he will put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat and live forever. And therefore <font color=purple>YHUH</font> sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground which he was taken from. That seems to indicate that one must have access to the tree of life to have eternal life. Something that in the future will be made available to the people of <font color=purple>YHUH</font>.

<font color=black>the spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath Day involves complete rest from sin</font>

Are you referring to the seventh day in this statement? If so please show something from the Hebrew Scriptures to verify this.

The seventh day was blessed and set apart because: Genesis 2:3 (Exodus 20:11)
...on it he took sabbath (or ceased) from all his work which Elohim had created to make.[/u]
Please take note that in Genesis 2:2 it says: "Elohim completed his work in the seventh day and he ceased (took sabbath) in the seventh day from all his work which he had made." It doesn't necessarily say that he did not do any work at all. It says he completed his work in the seventh day. Therefore he set the seventh day apart from all the other days and commanded the Israelites to do no work on that day.

Also this was done before the sin of the adam, because it says in: Genesis 1:31
And Elohim saw everything that he had made and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning the sixth day. Please explain to me how someone keeps something spiritually vs physically? Just one example would be sufficent.

[LoveforYah]

Shalom to all :)

Again i would like to take the opportunity to say thank you for welcoming me to this forum....HalleluYah

If i could only go back to that evening or day when i really realized that it was MY sin that killed Yahshua and truly go through the thoughts that were going through my head... because of my sin, Yahshua and Yahweh suffered and also my family, because of my sin salvation of my family was in dangour, the enemy always attacks a family. For some reason he knows that this that starting point... but PRAISE YAH for HIS SALVATION for HIS Son. Is anyone on this forum willing the share the experience of being born again, of truly being created by Yah according to HIS image?
Yes, the wage of sin is death... and i knew what does the law says death... No body wants to die. Till today i remember how i was pleading with Yah that it was long time ago, that "i" am not the same person any more and why is HE asking me to do it... Today i praise HIM, i praise HIM because it is truly Yahshua living in me that is doing all the work and that it is not i who made me new but Yahweh through HIS Son. one thing i still do remember is that i was discusted with myself....i believe that once one relizes what he/she has done they can not help but only to weep. Every day Yah gives me is a new morning.... it is a new mercy that HE gives me, for HIS glory only.
When it comes to law i am still praying that HE will enlarge my heart for i do not see physical law/spiritual law. i know i need help understanding it properly. from what i know for today Yahweh has put in the 10 commandments in my heart. You, know Spying you talked about removing the leaven from our house for the feast of unleaven bread. please pray for me that i may see that for i truly believe that we should constantly pray that the leaven/sin be removed from our houses/hearts. Paul says "little leaven leavens the whole batch".... i don't know why but from the first posts that i read on Eliyah's forum my spirit was drawn to waht you were sharing and i have learned a lot however i still do strugle in seeing the implication of physicial to spiritual for i believe that we are to live daily for Yah just like Yahshua did and does, Yahshua did say to the pharasees after they accused HIM of breaking the Sabbath that "My Father wokrs till today".... As i mentioned earlier the 10 commendaments Yahweh did write in my heart and i know it was HIM not me, for i did not like Sabbath and now i just love that day.... it is the best day of the week.... a day when we come with brothers and sisters to worship HIM. i am awaiting a sincere respond to glorify Yahweh our Father through Yahshua

In HIM
your sister
DOrota

[Spying]

Hi LoveforYah,

Good day to you! It is a good day, yet the Sabbath is approaching, and the Sabbath Day is always a better day and a welcomed relief and sanctuary.

It is so very true that we are drawn to each other as you do recognize. Some of those being drawn have not the recognition that they are being drawn, but they are being drawn nonetheless. "Yahushua in us" is a powerful force. There is no greater power or force. Right now, Yahushua, though the Cross and his resurrection, is the owner of all spirits. Have you ever wondered how it is that Yahushua would have extra spirit to give to each of us? Messiah said:
Matt 25:29
29 <font color="red">For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.</font color> (KJV)Messiah is the only one who "hath" because through the Cross all spirit was taken from us and given back to Messiah through the resurrection. As Messiah states:
Matt 28:18
18 <font color="red"><B>All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.</b></font color> (KJV)This power rightly belongs to him as it is written,
Eccl 12:7
7 <font color="blue">Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto ELOHIM who gave it.</font color> (KJV)In death, the spirit must return to the one who gave it in the first place. All of us were gathered to and died with Messiah through the Cross. When we died with him on the Cross, all of our spirits were released when he breathed his last. This spirit was poured out over his death body (all of mankind) into the HANDS of that Body in order that the spirit might be given to his Elect according to the working of his great purpose. Ultimately, all this spirit had to be given back to Messiah who is the HEAD of the Body at his resurrection. This argument proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Messiah is YAHWEH ELOHIM to all those who have been given eyes to see it.

Of course, when I write about these things, LoveforYah, there are some who read who think that I am crazy because they are quite convinced that they are alive and not dead. You probably only see bits and pieces of what I am saying, but the point is, what you see will grow just like your love for the Sabbath Day did grow.

The spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath Day conveys great promise to all of us. It tell us all that we are going to win our struggle against the sin which does plague us in our present lives. This is the true rest that ELOHIM seeks from each of us, and it is a rest that begins with the recognition that we did through our sin kill an innocent man. ELOHIM graciously though that same sin did allow us to assemble and die with Messiah at the Cross. Now properly, only Messiah is alive, and we who live, only live in him. All of this occurs in a spiritual sense that is not easy to see and understand. These are the "above things" that Paul exhorts us all to dwell upon.

Have a good Sabbath, LoveforYah.

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Sometimes when two individuals clash in their ideas, the clash takes on a personality of its own. I would ask you to take a new and fresh look at Messiah Yahushua and strive to look at his teaching in a more symbolic and spiritual sense. Many were offended by Messiah statements because they could not help but understand him to be speaking literally. Examine this statement:
John 6:51-57
51 <font color="red">I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. </font color>
52 <font color="red">The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?</font color>
53 <font color="red">Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.</font color>
54 <font color="red">Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.</font color>
55 <font color="red">For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.</font color>
56 <font color="red">He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.</font color>
57 <font color="red">As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.</font color> (KJV)Humor me, and allow yourself to think about the above statement in this context:
Gen 3:22-24
22 <font color="blue">And the YAHWEH ELOHIM said,</font color> <font color="990000">Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:</font color>
23 <font color="blue">Therefore the YAHWEH ELOHIM sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.</font color>
24 <font color="blue">So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.</font color> (KJV)Is there a relationship between Messiah and the Tree of Life? Messiah speaks about his flesh and blood in language that is similar to the fruit of the Tree of Life. Both, if eaten, give Eternal Life to the eater. A flaming sword guards access to the Tree of Life. Do you believe that a physical, burning sword turning every direction guards the Tree of Life, Sandy? Do you believe that someday mankind will again find a physical Tree of Life in a physical Garden with physical fruit on the tree that once eaten imparts eternal physical life to the eater? If you do, then how are you going to get by that sword? For it is written:
Eph 6:17
17 <font color="blue">And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of ELOHIM:</font color> (KJV)Moreover,
Heb 4:12
12 <font color="blue">For the word of ELOHIM is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.</font color>(KJV)In order get to the Tree of Life, Sandy, all must get by the Sword. All must reach out the hand and take from that Tree in order to eat. The sword guarding that Tree is two edged (physical and spiritual), and it turns all directions. How are you going to get your hand past that Sword without losing your hand or your life? If you can somehow learn to wield the Sword, you have no problem.

How do we know if someone has learned how to use the Word of ELOHIM? How do we know if someone can rightly handle the Word of Truth? Can we not see it in what they do?:
Matt 7:16-20
16 <font color="red">Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?</font color>
17 <font color="red">Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.</font color>
18 <font color="red">A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.</font color>
19 <font color="red">Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.</font color>
20 <font color="red">Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. </font color> (KJV)Now, the problem, that we all have in handling the Word of Elohim, is that each of us have brought forth evil fruit. As it is written:
Gal 5:19-23
19 <font color="blue">Now the works</font color> (fruit) <font color="blue">of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,</font color>
20 <font color="blue">Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,</font color>
21 <font color="blue">Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of ELOHIM.</font color>(Obviously, all who do such things are not eating from the Tree of Life)
22 <font color="blue">But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,</font color>
23 <font color="blue">Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. </font color> (KJV)(These are eating from the Tree of Life and only these are eating the Body and Blood of Messiah)So, we must learn to use the Sword to put to death the deeds of the flesh. Properly used, the Sword can pierce to the heart, and we can become converted and bear good fruit. Only the mind that is set upon ( is eating) the above things, the spiritual things of Messiah, only such a mind wields the Sword. The promise is there, Sandy:
Matt 26:26-28
26 <font color="blue">And as they were eating, Yahushua took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said,</font color><font color="red"> Take, eat; this is my body.</font color>
27 <font color="blue">And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,</font color><font color="red"> Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.</font color> (KJV).If we are eating and drinking, you will know us by what we do. Come, eat and drink these blessings with us.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying, I was a Christian until I began reading and studying the Bible on my own. I have come out of Christianity and will never, ever, embrace any part of their doctrine again.

If you, or any one else, wish to accept and symbolically take part in something that is forbidden by <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, that is your perogative. But I choose not to.

You have so much in common with Christianity. They too spiritualize everything. They proclaim Jesus to be: the Tree of Life, the seed of the woman, the seed of Abraham, the rock, living water, the sacrifice of all sacrifices, the God of gods, the Lord of lords, etc., etc., etc.

Christianity is THE CHURCH.

Do you know what CHURCH means?

CHURCH
[< Anglo Saxon circe < West Germanic kirika, < kuriakon (doma), Lord's (house) < kurios, lord]

The CHURCH (the Lord's house) claims that they are Spiritual Israel, thereby usurping and placing themselves over natural Israel and claiming all the promises made to natural Israel for themselves, which they have also spiritualized.

The CHURCH has done away with the Torah (the instructions) of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and replaced it with so called GRACE and FAITH.

The CHURCH has removed the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH and replaced it with Sunday the first day of the week and call it the LORD'S Day (pretty fitting considering the Church is the Lord's house).

The CHURCH has taken away all the SET TIMES/SET FEASTS of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and replaced them with Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Lent, etc., etc.

The CHURCH has invalidated the Hebrew Scriptures by calling it the Old Testament and replaced it with the so-called New Testament (Greek Scriptures).

The CHURCH gives more honor, praise, glory and credit to the words of Paul than to the words of the Almighty Creator.

The New Testament is the book of the CHURCH whose deity is Iesous/Jesus/Yeshua; In it Iesous makes the claim that he is the light of the world (John 8:12), thereby usurping the role of <font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> servant, the nation of Israel, whom he says will be his light to the nations (Isaiah 42:6, 49:6).

The claims are never ending.

[Thummim]

Shabbot Shalom Sandy. If YHWH were to make known his will, I bet it would read like 613 mitzvot. A person could choose to honor the will of YHWH or to disregard it. Christians like to say that we have to keep the mitzvot perfectly. If you fail in one, you fail in them all. I'm convinced that it is already excepted that people cannot keep themselves perfect in this regard. There wouldn't be a sin offering made daily if it were not excepted that this perfection is unobtainable. The mitzvah establish a direction to walk in (Halacha). If your heart is right with GD, he does not condemn you. I like you, am convinced that christianity has usurped the authority of the tanakh. I cannot see how I can, in anyway, call christianity a blessing to JEWs. Christianity has always proved itself caustic to JEWs. I was once a christian. It abhors me to think that I was ever a part of a faith that so hurt JEWs. Fortunatly it is well in my past. My ties are now to the JEWish people. I still cannot figure out why YHWH would desire the innocent to atone for the transgressions of the lawbreakers. Why not make the transgressors atone for their own sins? Isn't this the way that YHWH set things up? When Cain slew Able, was YHWH pleased? Now suddenly GD desires the sheding of innocent blood to remiss sins? No, innocence and purity are not the same thing. This sounds like a gentile faith to me. One brings the unblemished and not the innocent to atone for sin. Through the books of St. John and Acts, I circled the term, {the JEWs}. This tells me something about these books. Those who say, "the JEWs", do not speak like JEWs. Would we speak this way about Americans? The Americans did so and so? Being an American, I do not speak this way. I am an American. I do not speak, divorced from my people. This affinity Is even more shared by JEWs. The JEWs are a mishpacha (family). This sense of family is more pronounced in this people than in any other peoples that I know of. One more thing, if you underline all the words for multitudes and crowds in the NT, you will find it hard to think of (jesus) as being rejected by his people durring his lifetime. The man was constantly mobbed. Twice they even tried to make him a king. Christians like to think of us as "backsliden". But the truth is that our faith has evolved through much research and soul searching. Baruch hashem ......Michael,

[Sandy]

But the truth is that our faith has evolved through much research and soul searching. Baruch hashem ......Michael,

<font color=green>Isaiah 54:7
For a little moment I have left you, but <font color=blue>I will gather you with great pity</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

The Tzaddikim believe that eating is doing. We are what we eat. If Messiah's food is to do the will of YAHWEH and to accomplish YAHWEH's work, then whenever Messiah eats or does these things, whatever Messiah eats becomes his flesh, does it not? Read that sentence again, and absorb what I am saying. When we eat meat or food, that food is used by the body to create "flesh" and "bone". So, when Messiah asks us to eat his flesh, what is he really saying?: <font color="red">Create <B>"flesh"</b> and <B>"bone"</b>, my Brothers and Sisters. Do ye also the will of our Father, and accomplish ye also the work of our Father. Eat all of it so that now I can confess, <B>THIS IS BONE OF MY BONE AND FLESH OF MY FLESH.</b></font color>

Yes, we are dealing with symbols here, Sandy. But these symbols are about doing something (eating something). That doing is eating from the Tree of Life, and it is a real doing. It is true food. One does not solely eat this food by eating the symbols (the bread and the wine) as is commonly supposed and taught by the teachers of this world. One only eats the flesh of Messiah and drinks his blood by doing, that is, by performing the will of YAHWEH and by accomplishing HIS work.

How do you know that you are not already eating? I know that I was eating long before I had any real awareness of it.

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>My food is The Hebrew Scriptures

Proverbs 10:3
<font color=purple>YHUH</font> does not allow the soul of the upright to go hungry...

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

I also was a Christian who came out of Christianity never to return. In real life away from this cyber world, whenever the Tzaddikim are asked what we are, we generally reply: "Christians think that we are Jews, and Jews think that we are Christians, and we are rejected by both. In practice, we observe and celebrate the Days that Yahushua observed and celebrated." This is generally enough information to satisfy the human desire to categorize. Once a person is placed in a category, curiosity is satisfied.

Now, I am curious. Do you really think that the Tzaddikim are Christian in our teaching and practice?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Your wrote:
<font color=black>Christians think that we are Jews, and Jews think that we are Christians, and we are rejected by both.</font>
So welcome to the club.

You wrote:
<font color=black>Do you really think that the Tzaddikim are Christian in our teaching and practice?</font>
I don't know about the Tzaddikim. I said to you that because you tend to spiritualize everything you sound a lot like the Christians. Plus you believe in the Greek Scriptures.</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

If your food is only the Hebrew Scriptures, how is it that these words of the Prophet Isaiah can ever be fulfilled?:
Isa 28:11
11 <font color="blue">For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.</font color> (KJV)Clearly, YAHWEH spoke to the Hebrew people in the Hebrew language. What is this other tongue with which the YAHWEH will speak to the Jews? Obviously, if the whole word of YAHWEH was given to the Jews, then there is no need for any other tongue, let's say, like the Greek tongue. The Jews have the Hebrew Scriptures. What are you going to do, Sandy? Are you going to use your English to teach the Jews their own Hebrew Scriptures? Do you plan to show them how to keep their own Law? Do you plan to keep the Law better than they? Is that how you plan to make the Jews jealous?

Oh, I know, you are going to go to the Jew and tell them in the English language that the Sabbath begins at daylight on Saturday morning. Oh, I forgot, you going to make them jealous by teaching them that the 24 hour Day really begins with morning light.

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

I would like to address the 28th chapter of Isaiah. This chapter must be understood in the context of the time that it is written. The time is prior to the over running of Samaria By Assyria. It is approximently 725 years BCE. The tribes of Ephraim (Samaria) have made a covenant to deliver their lives from death. Yet YHWH is deliverer. The leaders of the peoples called Ephraim have looked elsewhere for a deliverer. So they must learn all over again just who is deliverer. Assyria (the stammering lips of a strange people) is going to discover the hiding places of this people (the bed is shorter than a man can streach himself on it=no hiding place) and this people will be carried off. This is the cornerstone that is referred too, >[YHWH is your Eloheem!] Do not seek deliverance elsewhere. This prophecy concerns both houses of Israel. Judah will however consult their eloheem, (ask for a sign, Isa. chap 7), and be delivered until the Babylonians come by 110 years later. It was understood that the Assyrians would come. They had a bad reputation in the area. These prophecies have nothing to do with (jesus). The report to be understood is this, [The Assyrians are on the way. (Isa.28:19)] Verse 26 probably goes with verse 10 in chapter 28 of this book. ....Michael

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Yes Thummim, I agree with you.</font>

[Spying]

Hi Thummim,

Please, don't quit now, you are on a role. How about dealing with verses 21-22 in the context of the time following Isaiah:
Isa 28:21-22
21 <font color="blue">For the YAHWEH shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may </font color><font color="990000"><B>do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.</b></font color> (the Cross)
22 <font color="blue">Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the ADONAI ELOHIM of hosts </font color><font color="990000"><B>a consumption</b></font color><font color="blue">, even determined upon </font color><font color="990000"><B>the whole earth.</b></font color> (KJV)Pray tell, Thummim, being wise in your own conceits, when did YAH make a consumptive end of the whole earth? Did the Assyrians do this work? How about the Babylonians? Oh, that's right, the Assyrians and the Babylonians, are not YAH, are they? Maybe we had better look for another!

How about Messiah Yahushua? After all, Messiah claimed in no uncertain terms that his food was to finish the work of YAHWEH:
John 4:34
34 <font color="blue">Yahushua saith unto them, </font color><font color="red">My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish</font color><font color="990000"><B> HIS WORK.</b></font color> (KJV)So, Thummim, it is pretty plain to me that someone is telling a lie. Perhaps, you and Sandy could explain to me how you are going to escape the comsumptive end that you must admit is yet coming on the whole earth right out of Isaiah 28? Oh, that's right, you do have a covenant, don't you? Don't mock YAHWEH! Rather, believe in the Messiah!

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>I wonder how someone who truly knows Hebrew, but knows nothing of Christianity or the Greek Scriptures would translate Isaiah 28:9?

Joel 3:6-8 (4:6-8)
And the sons of Yahudah and the sons of Jerusalem you have sold to the Greeks (Jovanim), that you might remove them from their border.
7) Behold, I am arousing them from the place where you have sold them and I will return your reward on your own head;
8) and I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Yahudah...</font>

[Thummim]

Spying, I'll let the author himself explain these verses to you. First let me explain that the hebrew word aretz often better translates "land", and not world. It refers to the world, not as we know it, but as the author knows it. [Isaiah 14:24-27; The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, surly as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off him, and his burdon depart from off his shoulders. This is the purpose that is purposed upon the WHOLE EARTH: and this is the hand that is streached out upon all the nations. For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is streached out, and who shall turn it back.] The 28th chapter of Isaiah has nothing to do with christianity. The author is explaining an event that is coming upon his people. Instead of giving victory as at Baal-perazim, (2Sam.5:19-25; 1Chr.14:9-16) he will inflict punishment.[ JPS footnote ] I am not lieing at all. I have never intentially lied in my entire life that I can recall. It only seems like a lie to you because of your teachers. To break loose of these constraints, you need to do some research. Do not believe all that you are told. This is how lambs are really led to slaughter. It's very hard to find out that what you've believed with all your heart, is wrong. Both Sandy and I have run into this wall. .....Michael

[Spying]

Hi Thummim,

First of all, my teachers are YAHWEH ELOHIM and HIS Messiah, Adown Yahushua, and I have never know them to lie to me.

YAHWEH ELOHIM is over all the earth (erets):
Ps 83:18
18 <font color="blue">That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth </font color>(erets). (KJV)The earth, the world, and they that dwell therein belong to the YAHWEH:
Ps 24:1
1 <font color="blue">The earth </font color>(erets) <font color="blue">is the YAHWEH'S, and the fulness thereof; the world </font color>(tebel)<font color="blue">, and they that dwell therein.</font color> (KJV)The Hebrew word "erets" is used many times in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is commonly translated as both "earth" and "land" in the English translations. In the Hebrew Scriptures the word "erets" is first used in Genesis 1:1:
Gen 1:1
1 <font color="blue">In the beginning God created the heaven and the <B>earth</b>.</font color> (erets) (KJV)YAHWEH gives us HIS definition of the word "erets" in Genesis 1:10:
Gen 1:10
10 <font color="blue">And ELOHIM called the dry land </font color>(yabbashah) <font color="blue">Earth </font color>(erets)<font color="blue">; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and ELOHIM saw that it was good.</font color> (KJV)So, "erets" is dry "yabbashah". Earth is dry land. Hence, "erets" is often translated as land.

Eventhough, it is written that the earth belongs to YAHWEH, it is also written that YAHWEH has given the earth to the children of men:
Ps 115:16
16 <font color="blue">The heaven, even the heavens, are the YAHWEH'S: but the earth </font color>(erets) <font color="blue">hath he given to the children of men.</font color> (KJV)How did YAHWEH give the land to the children of men?:
Gen 2:7
7 <font color="blue">And the YAHWEH ELOHIM formed </font color><font color="990000">man </font color>(adam) <font color="blue">of the </font color><font color="gray"><B>dust</b></font color> (aphar) <font color="blue">of the </font color><font color="990000">ground </font color>(adamah), <font color="blue">and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a <B>living </b></font color>(chay) <font color="blue"><B>soul</b>.</font color>(KJV)So, YAHWEH gave HIS spirit to the earth or land. Through Adam and Eve, this spirit is given to all the children of formed dust. We all are living earth. We have our being, we each possess our earth or land though the spirit of YAH which has been given to the land or earth. This is how the earth or land was given to men as a possession. As it is written:
Ps 104:30-31
30 <font color="blue">Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
31 The glory of the YAHWEH shall endure for ever: the YAHWEH shall rejoice in his works. </font color) (KJV)The face of YAH is being renewed through the creation of man. Man is the image and glory of YAHWEH (1 Corinthians 11:7).

This is the beginning of the story.

Sincerely, Spying

P.S. I leave this sidebar tidbit for our newest member, Gwen. Adam's natural complexion was reddish. Many believe that the mark of Cain was a change or darkening of his skin color to black. However, the ground was cursed because of Adam's sin. Something may have changed with respect to the color of the ground right there at that point. Cain later was also cursed for killing his brother. What is a curse? A curse is angry breath emitted with force from the mouth of the one speaking, in these cases, YAHWEH's heated breath or air. Have you ever looked at freshly plowed earth? No matter what color of earth it is, it is always darker in appearance. What happens to the color of freshly plowed ground when hot air is blown across its surface. It lightens in color, doesn't it? It may very well be the exact opposite of what most think. All in all, the white race has proven itself to be the most proficient killer of its brothers.

[Thummim]

With YHWH as our teacher, you would think that we would all believe the same thing. Obviously, we don't. Aretz in the context of Isa. chapter 28 is better translated "land". I don't wish to imply that there is not occasion to translate it as "world". Since we know that the (whole earth) did not end up in a consumation of the [kol-ha-aretz], interpreted as( the whole earth), isn't it better to interpret it as (the whole land) as is the case with many other english translations? What is important to understand, is what the author is trying to tell us, concerning this time. The 28th chapter of Isaiah still has nothing to do with christianity. To try to post-date this prophecy out of it's time only confuses people. I merely have attempted to explain it for the sake of understanding. It is no longer prophecy, it has become history. It does not forecast the destruction of the whole earth as we know it. Assyria is gone. YHWH did a job on it as was prophecied. ---Michael

[Spying]

Hi Thummim,

Is the giving of "erets" to mankind a permanent arrangement? Not at all. Whenever we die, we lose possession of our land, don't we? Do we every receive our land again? Most have a belief that they will receive their earth again through the resurrection. This is for certain, we were each given a possession of land which we all through death ultimately lose, and our hope of any renewed possession of erets again is now only through the resurrection. Why must there be a resurrection?

There will be a resurrection because of the nature of the promises of YAHWEH. Abraham was promised an inheritance of land that YAHWEH had first been apportioned to others after the flood:
Gen 10:31-32
31 <font color="blue">These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.</font color>
32 <font color="blue">These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth (erets) after the flood.</font color> (KJV)So, the land promised to Abraham had been designated for others. Abraham was from another land. How could Abraham therefore hope to possess land that rightly belongs to others? When you think about it, about the most that any of us should hope of possessing in the resurrection is our original possession, our own bodies. Yet, Abraham was promised land first given to others. If there is a general resurrection, why should not the original owners also receive their own land again? Why should their land go to another? Interesting, isn't it? And not only that, this very land which is promised to Abraham is actually first promised, not to Abraham, but to his <font color="990000"><B>Seed</b></font color>:
Gen 12:7
7 <font color="blue">And the YAHWEH appeared unto Abram, and said,</font color><font color="990000"> Unto thy <B>Seed</b> will I give this land:</font color><font color="blue"> and there builded he an altar unto the YAHWEH, who appeared unto him.</font color> (KJV)So, Abraham's <font color="990000"><B>Seed</b></font color> would receive the Land first. Only in a later promise was this same land promised also to Abraham:
Gen 13:15
15 <font color="990000">For all the land which thou seest, to <B>thee</b> will I give it, and to thy <B>Seed</b> for ever.</font color (KJV)So, how could YAH give the land first to his Seed and then also to him? At this point, what do you think were the thoughts of Abraham? He had just lived though an episode in his life where the land was not big enough to support two families, had he not? Now, YAHWEH informs him that his seed will be as the dust of the earth, many of them living in the land at the same time together? I doubt if Abraham's thinking about the Land up to this point is anything much more than in physical terms. Just exactly how is he himself to be given the land? What would the giving of that gift eventually mean for all the other inhabitants of the land, etc? No doubt, Abraham understood the "for ever" nature of the promise to refer to the successive generations of his seed, just like many still do today. So, all the promises could yet be worked out in physical terms, in much the same way that many today look for these promises to be fulfilled (I am speaking here of you, Sandy). Yet, the next promise given to Abraham throws a monkey wrench into all thinking, Abraham's thinking as well as ours, that we should think about these promises solely in physical terms:
Gen 15:7
7 <font color="blue">And YAH said unto him,</font color><font color="990000"> I am the YAHWEH that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give <B>thee</b> this land to <B>inherit</b> it.</font color> (KJV)Now, YAHWEH has just informed Abraham that the gift of land to him would be one of inheritance. Abraham was no dummy. He knew what is meant whenever someone starts talking about receiving an inheritance. In order to receive an inheritance, someone has to die, don't they? If Abraham is to inherit the land, who is it that must die? Surely, all the inhabitants of the land including their offspring would have to die in order for Abraham to inherit the land. We can really see the wheels starting to turn in Abraham's mind here: A gift is one thing, YAH, but how could it be that I should inherit the land? So, what does Abraham, the man of faith do? He has a great desire to know how this is to work out so he asks YAH:
Gen 15:8
8 <font color="blue">And he said, ADONAI ELOHIM, whereby shall I know that I shall <B>inherit</b> it?</font color> (KJV)And YAH shows Abraham exactly how he is to know. I do not have the insight to interpret the vision that Abraham received in order that Abraham might surely know, but I suspect that this is where Abraham was shown the Day of YAHWEH that is spoken of by Messiah:
John 8:56
56 <font color="red">Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.</font color> (KJV)Abraham knew full well that YAHWEH was the possessor of Heaven and Earth:
Gen 14:22
22 <font color="blue">And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the YAHWEH, the most high ELOHIM, the possessor of heaven and earth, </font color>(KJV)So, what must happen before Abraham could inherit from YAHWEH? What must happen before Abraham could inherit all the land of his sojourning? Both all the inhabitants of the land and YAH must die. And that is exactly what Abraham saw in his vision. Isaiah describes this event in this fashion:
Isa 10:16-23
16 <font color="blue">Therefore shall the ADOWN, the JEHOVAH of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory </font color>(mankind) <font color="blue">he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire </font color>(the Cross).
17<font color="blue">And the light of Israel </font color>(Messiah) <font color="blue">shall be for a fire, and his Holy One </font color>(Messiah) <font color="blue">for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers </font color>(the wicked) <font color="blue">in one day;</font color> (the Day of YAHWEH)
18 <font color="blue">And shall consume the glory of his forest </font color>(the Gentiles)<font color="blue">, and of his fruitful field </font color>(all Israel)<font color="blue">, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.</font color>
19 <font color="blue">And the rest of the trees of his forest </font color>(Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob?) <font color="blue">shall be few, that a child may write them.</font color>
20 <font color="blue">And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel </font color>(Jew and Gentile)<font color="blue">, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the YAHWEH, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.</font color>
21 <font color="blue">The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty EL.</font color>
22 <font color="blue">For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption </font color>(the Cross)<font color="blue"> decreed shall overflow with righteousness.</font color>
23 <font color="blue">For the ADONAI JEHOVAH of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. </font color>(John 19:18)(KJV)This is how all the inhabitants are consumed from Abraham's land. One cannot inherit from a spirit save in a spiritual manner. Notice: The remnant return unto the mighty EL. I say, again: Believe in Messiah!

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

Spying, ---again, Isa.28 has nothing to do with christianity! This chapter is written concerning it's own time, a time that is now history to us. I can believe in a messiah who redeems his people. I can't believe in christianity as being a blessing to JEWs. I know what christianity has always been to JEWs. I firmly wish that this faith had never existed. That would have redeemed many JEWish lives from the grave. Because of how christians have treated JEWs, crosses now, will always remind me of the slaughter of JEWish innocence! It seems that we are destined to always disagree with each other.To me, the name of (jesus) is like an arrow whose only purpose is to wound JEWish flesh (and spirit). .....Michael

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello Spying
You wrote:
<font color=black>Gen 15:7-8
7 And YAH said unto him, I am the YAHWEH that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, ADONAI ELOHIM, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? (KJV)</font>
The Hebrew word that has been translated inherit in these verses is yarash (#3423) and does not mean "inherit" in the sense that you have presented it. It means to possess or occupy:

Yarash
to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to impoverish, to ruin
The Hebrew word nachal (#5157) means to inherit in the sense that you have presented.

nachal
to inherit (as a [fig.] mode of descent), or (gen.) to occupy; causative to bequeath, or (gen.) distribute, instate.

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying wrote:
<font color=black>Gen 15:8
8 And he said, ADONAI ELOHIM, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? (KJV)
</font>
Then you said:
<font color=black>And YAH shows Abraham exactly how he is to know. I do not have the insight to interpret the vision that Abraham received in order that Abraham might surely know, but I suspect that this is where Abraham was shown the Day of YAHWEH that is spoken of by Messiah:</font>
And then you turn right around and say:
<font color=black>So, what must happen before Abraham could inherit from YAHWEH? What must happen before Abraham could inherit all the land of his sojourning? Both all the inhabitants of the land and YAH must die. And that is exactly what Abraham saw in his vision</font>.
<font color=purple size=5>YHUH</font> <font size=4>does NOT die!</font>

And if you continue to read past Genesis 15:8 it tells us what Abraham saw:

Genesis 15
12) And it happened as the sun was setting a deep sleep fell on Abram; and behold a terror of great darkness fell on him.
13) And he said to Abram, You must surely know that your seed shall be a sojourner in a land not theirs and they shall serve them. And they shall afflict them for four hundred years;
14) And I also will judge that nation whom they shall serve; and afterward they shall come out with great substance.
15) And you shall come to your fathers in peace. You shall be buried in a good old age.
16) And in the fourth generation they shall come here again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Isa 10:16-23 certainly is not Abram's vision.
</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

Honestly, I did not have any awareness prior to your post that there were two different Hebrew words for "inherit". I think I saw an earlier reply from you, Sandy. Did you make and then delete an earlier post to me on this subject?

I feel that you are partially correct. In my mind, I was using "inherit" more in the sense of "nachal" rather than "yarash" in the first half of my post. Later, I was thinking of "inherit" more along the lines of "yarash". In order for Abraham to "yarash" the land, then the original inhabitants of the land, along with all their offspring, must of necessity be dispossessed. That was a major part of the actual point I was making in my post on "Inheriting Erets!" without knowing that there existed a distinction between "nachal" and "yarash" in the Hebrew language. Here is what I said:
<B>Surely, all the inhabitants of the land including their offspring would have to die in order for Abraham to inherit the land.

What must happen before Abraham could inherit all the land of his sojourning? Both all the inhabitants of the land and YAH must die.</b>Both of these statements prove to you that I was thinking that dispossession must occur. It is an absolute necessity when you consider original ownership. Abraham can only inherit the land in so far as there no longer exist any other legitimate claimants to the land.

Even if we are to ignore the reality that YAHWEH HIMSELF must also be dispossessed in order for Abraham to "yarash" the land, I believe that I have presented you and Thummim with a credible argument that all the inhabitants of Abraham's land have been dispossessed through the Cross, that is, through Messiah's suffering and death. Through his death, all of mankind have died (2 Corinthians 5:14). If all have died, then only Abraham is left standing. When this is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, then Abraham of necessity will "yarash" the land.

Here is the problem that you do now have because you know that "yarash" is indeed true. All the physical inhabitants, the Palestinians and their offspring, must be physically dispossessed from their land in order for present day Jews to begin to "yarash" the land. And not only must they be dispossessed (driven from within the physical borders of Israel), but they must also be killed; otherwise, someone can still lay claim to possession of the land. The physical bodies of the Palestinians are a part of the physical land. We each come from our land, our ground. So, unless, we are dispossessed from our land through death (the spirit leaves the ground), we still have grounds for claims of ownership. If there do exist conflicting claims, then there is no "yarash". So, every Palestinian man, woman, and child the world over must be hunted down and killed if the Jews are to "yarash" the land.

Would that be ok with you, Sandy? How about you, Thummim?

Sincerely, Spying

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Hello Spying
Yes, I made an earlier post concerning the words "Yarash" and "Nachal", and no I did not delete it. It is the next to the last post on page 6 of this thread.

<font color=purple>YHUH </font> dispossessed????? I don't think so.

There is also a word translated possessor, which is from qanah #7069 and means: to erect, i.e. create; by extens. to procure, espec. by purchase (caus. sell); by impl. to own.

Genesis 14:22
And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to <font color=purple>YHUH</font>, El Elyon, the possessor (qanah) of the heavens and earth...
If <font color=purple>YHUH</font> is the Elohim of Genesis 1, then he is not just a possessor of the earth but the creator. As the creator he can do what he wishes with his creation. If he wishes to give the land of Canaan to his chosen people that is his perogative.

You wrote:
<font color=black>Here is the problem that you do now have because you know that "yarash" is indeed true. All the physical inhabitants, the Palestinians and their offspring, must be physically dispossessed from their land in order for present day Jews to begin to "yarash" the land. And not only must they be dispossessed (driven from within the physical borders of Israel), but they must also be killed; otherwise, someone can still lay claim to possession of the land. The physical bodies of the Palestinians are a part of the physical land. We each come from our land, our ground. So, unless, we are dispossessed from our land through death (the spirit leaves the ground), we still have grounds for claims of ownership. If there do exist conflicting claims, then there is no "yarash". So, every Palestinian man, woman, and child the world over must be hunted down and killed if the Jews are to "yarash" the land.</font>
That is slightly ridiculous. People have been dispossessed from there land many times over. Borders and bounderies have changed many times. The United States of America is a prime example. The native Americans still live here and yet they have been dispossessed. When you own land here and die, don't your children inherit that land?

[Thummim]

Shalom all. If a land is deeded to a people by the owner, they become heirs to it. Abraham possesses what is deeded to him. What he does with the land is for the owner to decide. Did Abraham believe that he alone would occupy it? To possess or to occupy? Aren't we just playing with words? A burial place is purchased in the land by a patriarch. Does he have to occupy the land to possess it? And why is slaughter a prerequisite to inheriting the land? ....Michael

[Spying]

Hi Thummim,

If I, out of the goodness of my heart, should suddenly make you my heir, then upon my death you would become the owner of all my worldly goods. However, if I should choose to deed my worldly possessions to you, you become the immediate possessor or owner of all that I possess. Nothing that I know of was "deeded" to Abraham save for his grave which Abraham did purchase with his own money. Indeed, the land was promised to Abraham, but the only portion of it that he ever possessed was the grave. This is important to understand. If YAHWEH had in any fashion ever given or transferred (deeded) the land of Canaan to Abraham, why then did Abraham seek to purchase a burial place from the Canaanites? Why would anyone offer to pay for or purchase what they already own? The truth of the matter is that Abraham did not receive what was promised to him. As it is written:
Heb 11:13
13 <font color="blue">These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.</font color> (KJV)Is this not the very confession that Abraham confessed before the children of Heth, when he sought to buy a burial place for himself and his family:
Gen 23:4
4 <font color="blue">I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.</font color> KJV)Now, ownership of a grave is important if you are disposed to look at a grave in a symbolic (spiritual) sense, but most are unwilling to take that step. Regardless of what it may ultimately mean that Abraham did pass ownership of the grave to his heirs, we see today many (the Jews) who have again entered the land of Canaan. They think of themselves as Abraham's seed, but they are not willing to do as Abraham did. They are not willing to live as strangers and sojourners amongst the Palestinians. The Jews have no deed for any of the land that they do now possess in Palestine through dispossession. The Jews have coveted, they have made war (slaughtered), and they have taken what does not belong to them. These things Abraham did not do.

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

Shalom Spying. Abraham is not exactly a stranger to the land of Cannan. Abraham dwelt in the land of Cannan, and lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom. Gen.13:12 He is a stranger in the sense that he is a sojourner in the land. It is this land of Cannan (that Abraham dwells in), that is promised to him. And YHWH appeared unto Abram, and said, unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto YHWH, and called upon the name of YHWH. Gen.12:7 This is the deed, And YHWH said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, "Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, To thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever." Gen.13:14,15 The torah is a deed if you except the word of YHWH. It's upon this deed that all JEWs claim the land. The torah is a written work which probably predates any existing deed upon the land. What is a deed, but a transfer of ownership. Can YHWH give the land to Abraham and his seed? The New Testement is a commentary, at best, made upon the tanakh. As you've seen, it is subject to as many errors as any other commentary. I would not place anything written within the NT over the text of the tanakh. Whether you except this claim upon the land, is your personal choice. Any such deed can be challenged. ....Michael

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Spying wrote:
<font color=black>Now, ownership of a grave is important if you are disposed to look at a grave in a symbolic (spiritual) sense, but most are unwilling to take that step. Regardless of what it may ultimately mean that Abraham did pass ownership of the grave to his heirs, we see today many (the Jews) who have again entered the land of Canaan. They think of themselves as Abraham's seed, but they are not willing to do as Abraham did. They are not willing to live as strangers and sojourners amongst the Palestinians. The Jews have no deed for any of the land that they do now possess in Palestine through dispossession. The Jews have coveted, they have made war (slaughtered), and they have taken what does not belong to them.</font>
Spying, you live in the United States. How exactly do you think it came about that you and I came to dwell here in the good old USA? Our forefathers were not willing to live as strangers and sojourners amongst the natives of the land. They coveted, made war (slaughtered) and took what did not belong to them. So how can you justify your judging the Jews?


Deuteronomy 2
4) ...You shall pass over into the border of your brothers, the sons of Esau, who live in Seir and they shall be afraid of you...
5) You shall not fight against them, for I will not give their land to you...for I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession.
9) ...Do not trouble Moab nor stir yourself up against them in battle, for I will not give their land to you for a possession. For I have given Ar as a possession to the sons of Lot.
10) The Emim lived there in days gone by...
12) And the Horites lived in Seir before, and the sons of Esau dispossessed them and destroyed them and lived in their place, as Israel has done to the land of his possession, which <font color=purple>YHUH</font> has given to them.
24) Rise up, set out and cross over the river Amon; behold, I have given Sihon the king of Heshbon, the Amorite, and his land into your hands. Begin to possess and stir yourselves up against him in battle.
33) And <font color=purple>YHUH</font> delivered him...and we struck him and his sons and all his people.
34) And we captured all his cities...and utterly destroyed every city; men, women and little ones. We did not leave a remnant.

Deuteronomy 3
3) And <font color=purple>YHUH</font> also gave Og the king of Bashan into our hands and all his people. And we struck him until not one survivor was left to him.
6) And we utterly destroyed them, as we had done to Sihon the king of Heshbon, destroying every city; the men, the women and the little ones.
21) ...You have seen all that <font color=purple>YHUH</font> has done to these two kings; so <font color=purple>YHUH</font> will do to all the kingdoms to which you are passing over.

Deuteronomy 4
25) When you father sons and son's sons and you hve been long in the land...and have done that which is evil in the sight of <font color=purple>YHUH</font>...
26) ...you shall soon utterly perish from off the land to which you go over the Jordan to possess; you shall not prolong your days on it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27) And <font color=purple>YHUH</font> shall scatter you among the peoples and you shall be left few in number among the nations to which <font color=purple>YHUH</font> shall scatter you.
35) To you (natural Israel) it was revealed, so that you might know that <font color=purple>YHUH</font> is the Elohim and no one else besides him.
36) He made you hear his voice out of the heavens that he might discipline you; and he made you to see his great fire on earth and you heard his word from the midst of the fire.
37) And because he loved your fathers, and chose their seed after them, and brought you out with his presence, with his great power, out of Egypt;
38) In order to drive out nations greater and mightier than you from before you, to bring you in, to give you their land for an inheritance...
The Israelites were commanded by <font color=purple>YHUH</font> NOT to dwell with the people of the land, because they would cause them to sin.

Exodus 23
30) I will drive them out before you little by little, until you are fruitful and possess the land.
31) ...I will give the people of the land into your hand and you shall drive them out before you.
33) They shall NOT dwell in your land, lest they cause you to sin towards me...

None of this sounds spiritual to me. It sounds very physical.

As you can see by the above verses it was not for Abraham to drive out the inhabitants of the land because he was too few in number. The actual possessing began with his descendents, the twelve tribes of Israel, and will culminate when the descendents of natural Israel are gathered and returned to the land.

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Psalm 105
4) Seek <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and his strength; seek his face without ceasing.
5) Remember his wonders that he has done; his signs and the judgments of his mouth,
6) Seed of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
7) He is <font color=purple>YHUH</font> Eloheynu. His judgments are in all the earth;
8) He has remembered his Everlasting Covenant; the word he commanded to a thousand generations, which he cut with Abraham and his oath to Isaac.
10) And he confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an Everlasting Covenant,
11) Saying, To you I will give the land of Canaan, the portion of your inheritance;
12) When they were very few men of number and sojourners in it.</font>

[Spying]

Hi Sandy,

So, let me see if I have this correct? At the culmination, as the Jews (natural Israel) are gathered from the nations to return to Palestine, they will then remove the Palestinians from Palestine. The Jews will follow the pattern of their forefathers showing no mercy to men, women, or little ones until none are left in the land, and "yarash" is complete. Is that what you are saying, Sandy? You are right. That is very physical. Now, I suppose that such an event could also be spiritual if, indeed, YAHWEH has commanded that such an holocaust again occur? Do you believe that YAHWEH commands that extermination should fall upon the heads of the Palestinians? How about the non-Jewish Christians in the land? Do they fall under this cherem?

I am of Scottish descent. My relatives on my father's side came to America and settled in Missouri prior to the American Civil War. One of my grandfathers died in that war fighting for the North. As far as I know, none of my family participated in taking land from the native American Indian. One of my grandmothers on my mother's side was a Cherokee Indian. I must admit that I do benefit from the theft of Indian land, and I do readily acknowledge that many grievous wrongs were done to the American Indian. I think that James has said it best:
James 4:1-2
1 <font color="blue">From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? </font color>
2 <font color="blue">Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. </font color> (KJV)If indeed the Jews must return to the land, what is the matter with asking instead of warring? What is the matter with bargaining for the land as did Abraham before thousands inherit the grave fighting over the land? Asking and buying is just as physical as stealing and killing. I know, you believe that peace must be won through cherem; otherwise, there is no "yarash", is there?

Sincerely, Spying

[Spying]

Hi Thummim,

The New Testament is much more than just a commentary on the Old Testament. It is a witness to a deed. This deed is the actual transfer of ownership of all earthly and heavenly property of YAHWEH ELOHIM to Messiah Yahushua. Granted, I know that you do not accept this witness to a completed transaction, and neither does Sandy and Stranger. When I look over the various topics of this forum, it is clearly evident to me that a considerable amount of your energy and effort has been expended to discredit the witness of the New Testament. Why would you all work so hard to discredit what is at best a commentary? I am sorry, but your actions betray your true feelings about the New Testament. You know that it is much more than just a commentary!

A promise, Thummim, is not a transfer of ownership. Now, if YAHWEH does promise something, it is as good as done. A promise of YAHWEH is the best collateral in the world. There is no disagreement between us that a promise of inheritance was made to Abraham. There is no disagreement between us that YAHWEH did promise this same land to Abraham's seed. There exists considerable disagreement between us as to whether or not an unconditional transfer of ownership has already taken place between YAHWEH and the seed when the Children of Israel entered the land after wandering in the desert. If the promise to the seed was unconditional, then all the adults who left Egypt should have entered the land. They all made covenant with YAHWEH, but they did not enter and take possession of the land. Moses, a mediator of the Old Covenant, was himself not allowed to take possession of the land. Why? Because of disobedience. So, the promise to Abraham was unconditional, but the land was never given unconditionally to the seed. Obviously, all the seed are required to obey in order to take possession of the land, are they not?

This is evident when you consider the testimony of YAHWEH concerning Abraham. This is what YAHWEH says concerning Abraham:
Gen 18:19
19 <font color="990000">For I <B>know</b> him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the YAHWEH, to do justice and judgment; that the YAHWEH may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.</font color> (KJV)Clearly, at this point Abraham himself has not taken possession of the land. So, you are quite wrong that a transfer of ownership took place in Genesis 13:14-15. Clearly, in order for Abraham himself to possess the land, YAHWEH requires that the seed must follow in the exact footsteps of Abraham. Like Abraham, they must obey in everything. So, YAHWEH can and did give the land to the Children of Israel. They took possession, but their possession was not complete because their obedience was not complete. Abraham most assuredly does not take possession of the land until the obedience of the seed is complete. When their obedience is perfect, then YAHWEH brings upon Abraham what HE has promised. This is the marvelous service of the Seed, and it is a service in which we also have a part.

Humm! I wonder if the sect of Judaism called <font color="990000"><B>"the way"</b></font color> has anything to do with YAHWEH bringing upon Abraham what HE has promised to him:
John 14:6
6 <font color="blue">Yahushua saith unto him,</font color><font color="red"> I am <B>the way</b>, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.</font color> (KJV)

Acts 24:14
14 <font color="blue">But this I confess unto thee, that after <B>the way</b> which they call heresy, so worship I the ELOHIM of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:</font color> (KJV)Why not participate in <B>"the way"</b>, Thummim, and thereby help Abraham receive what was promised to him?

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

Hello Spying, Moses is told to cross the Jordon and to take possession of the land. [and ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. And ye shall divide the the land by lot for an inheritance among your families. Nu.33:53,54] You are arguing a ridiculous point. [And when Joshua had let the people go, the children of Israel went every man into his inheritance to possess the land. Judg.2:6] The NT is a commentary. It expresses the opinions of it's authors. Many people disagree with the commentators. It's authors get many things wrong. The idea that the land promised to Abraham has yet to be inherited, is wrong. The land was possessed and divided among the sons of Israel and their families. Abraham lived in the land, was told that his offspring would possess the land, and they did. When YHWH promised the land to Abrahams decendents, the land became his by promise. Abraham, himself, lived in the land promised to him. He knew what he was going to inherit. [-and give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which {GD gave to Abraham}. Gen.28:4] Exactly, what is your point? The only question here is whether the tanakh is a legal deed? There's no doubt that within the tanakh, YHWH gave the land to Abraham for an inheritance. ....Michael

[Thummim]

Halacha, the path, is better, than [the way] of christianity. The way of christianity has led to the slaughter of many of Abrahams seed. When christianity arrives at their final destination, YHWH is going to ask, "Where are my people?". Why have you taught that my children are damned inside your churches? Haven't I said that their righteousness is of me? I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no saviour. {Isa.54:17, Isa.43:11} Christianity whittles out it's own salvation, but it puts obsticles in the path of the JEWish people. Christianity should have been friends with JEWs. Instead, christianity has gathered itself to beat upon JEWs throughout its history. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? {Mat.7:15,16} For JEWs, christianity is full of thorns and thistles. ....Michael

[Ishshah Yir'iyayh]

Thummin,

Interesting. I wholeheartedly agree. I often wonder why 'The Way' is thought to be owned by Christians. While the Path is clearly one that Yah lead us on. "Thy Word YH is a Lamp unto my feet." In a very deep PaRDeS on the word Gates: The Truth the Way and the Life......(Simchat......do post that pleeeuuuuzzzee) reading Simchat's post on the three gates into the temple, will reveal.

Sha'ar or Lucifer Shahar is also too close to the word Gates. In the PaRDeS, Gentiles were always by the Gates, and not inside. They were always on the Porch of Solomon, which does not exist in the Third and final Temple. There will be no Gentiles and no Sheperd. I am in a hurry, but studying Gates, and Shepherds will reveal that Christians could prosper their souls slavation further with some respect for the latter rain being brought by the Jews. Yet both need to recognize that neither Jew nor Gentile will be in Zion, but Israel. The hidden Midrash? Turn not to the left or the right.

All my Love
Glory to Yah
Ishshah

[simchat_torah]

Spying,

First I would like to congradulate you an many Excellent posts regarding the sacrafice of Y'shua.

But I do have a bone to pick, lightly speaking....

You said:
"Now, I have indicated on this thread that I consider myself to be a member of physical Israel; eventhough, I cannot prove my physical roots."

This is not only offensive to the Jews, but scripture as well, for does not scripture make a clear distinction between the two? Of course the gentiles have their place in the kingdom, I am not denying this. But what you are leaning towards is replacement theology, a very gross interpretation of scripture (I will re-post something below that addresses replacement theology).

Then you said:
"It is not necessary that I prove those roots. I consider myself first and foremost to be a spiritual Israelite through Messiah Yahushua."

Then be satisfied with that calling, it is a high calling. Do not feel any less tht you are not physical Yisra'el. But joining yourself to Yisra'el is a very high calling and youy are to be commended for that.

Shalom,
Japheth

[simchat_torah]

Replacement theology?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What is Replacement theology in the eyes of a Jewish Believer? I have posted, in the past, my ideas (and traditional “Jewish Believer’s” take) on various aspects of replacement theology. But now I sit down to actually sum all of it’s teachings up in a nice neat package. (*** How strange it seems to me that Christians were not claiming to be Jews during the Holocaust…. Just a thought)


; )

Has G-d forsaken His people? This would be the first logical step in determining if a new people have now replaced Yisra’el. First let us look at Heb. 6:13 & 17.

“6:13 For when Elohim made a promise to Avraham, since he could swear by none greater, he swore by himself . 6:17 Wherein Elohim, being determined to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath”

Here we can see that His promise was eternal. He could find no greater way to seal His covenant, thus He swore by Himself. To break this….. well, you can imagine the theological magnitude of this….

But what if Yisra’el borke the covenant?

Jeremiah. 46:28 Don't be afraid you, O Ya`akov my servant, says YHWH; for I am with you: for I will make a full end of all the nations where I have driven you; but I will not make a full end of you, but I will correct you in measure, and will in no way leave you unpunished.

G-d will never make an end to Yisra’el. He may punish them, but never fully destroy Yisra’el.

Jeremiah . 31:35 Thus says YHWH, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar; YHWH of hosts is his name: 31:36 If these ordinances depart from before me, says YHWH, then the seed of Yisra'el also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. 31:37 Thus says YHWH: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the eretz searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Yisra'el for all that they have done, says YHWH.

Here we can see that as long as there is a sun, moon, stars, Earth, and sea there will be a distinct people Yisra’el- no matter what they do.

In ancient days, covenants were made in a special way. Sacrificial animals were cut in two and their severed bodies placed in two lines. Both parties entered into the covenant would then walk between the carcasses. By doing so they were symbolically saying, “If I break this binding agreement, if I fail to uphold my side of the pact, then let me suffer the same fate that these animals have suffered.” But something was different in Genesis 15. Only G-d passed through the pieces! This was a one-way deal.

Gen. 15:17 It came to pass that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold, a smoking furnace, and a flaming torch passed between these pieces. 15:18 In that day YHWH made a covenant with Avram, saying, "To your seed have I given this land, from the river of Mitzrayim to the great river, the river Perat: 15:19 the Kinim, the Kenizzi, the Kadmoni, 15:20 the Hitti, the Perizzi, the Refa'im, 15:21 the Amori, the Kana`anim, the Girgashi, and the Yevusi."

And
Romans . 11:28 As concerning the good message, some are enemies because of you: but as concerning the chosen people, they are beloved for the fathers ' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of Elohim are irrevocable.

[simchat_torah]

Then some ask, “Why are the Jews living outside the ‘new’ covenant if they are the covenant people?” Shaul had a simple answer to this:

Rom. 9:6-8
“Is it not as though G-d’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Yisra’el are Yisra’el. Nor because hey are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children…. In other words, it is not the natural children who are G-d’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Natural children refers to Yisra’el as a whole. G-d’s children refers to the believing remnant within natural Yisra’el.

We can see a similar parallel within Christianity. There are those who have been born into the ch-rch, and then there are those who are spiritually the ch-rch. These are those who have faith outside of simply being a part of Christianity only because that is what they were raised in. (this is only an example to show Christians what I mean)

On no definite occasion does the Brit Chadasha ever call the ch-rch Yisra’el. In fact, out of the 77 times the words “Yisra’el” and “Israellite” occur in the Brit Chadasha, there are only two verses in which Yisra’el couild possibly refer to the ch-rch as a whole: Gal. 6:16, where Shaul speaks of the “Yisra’el of G-d” and Rev. 7:4, where Yochanan speaks of the 144,000 seald from the twelve tribes of Yisra’el. This is saying something! Seventy-five “definites” and only two “maybes”. I wouldn’t want to side with the “maybes”!

Actually the terms “true Yisra’el” or “spiritual Yisra’el” never occur in the Bible, and it might be helpful to completely avoid using them.

As for the verses open to dispute, in Galations 6:16 the KJV, the NKJV, and the NASB all imply the same thing: “The Yisra’el of G-d” does not refer to the whole ch-rch. It refers to believing Jews. The same can be said for the description of the 144,000 sealed in Rev. 7:4. It most likely describes the harvest of the Jews worldwide. Elsewhere in the Book of Rev. “Yisra’el” means “Yisra’el” (Rev. 2:14) and “the twelve tribes” mean the “twelve tribes of Yisra’el”, as distinguished from the “twelve apostles” (Rev. 21:12-14).

[simchat_torah]

Now let’s examine Rom. 2:28-29
“A man is not a Jew if he is ONLY one outwardly, nor is circumcison MERELY outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such is a man’s praise not from men, but from G-d.

Here he is directing his argument to Jews, as we can see from the context provided in Rom. 2:17-29. Within that context he is defining who the “real” Jew is- spiritually speaking.

In the greek Brit Chadasha, the word Jew occurs over 190 times. More than 190 times it definitely means a Jew nationally and ethnically. Only 2 times could it possibly mean something else. Those two times are: Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 where the reference is mae to “those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of HaSatan.”

I’m afraid my interpretation of the above verses will offend many, so I will leave it up to your interpretation.

But if someone understood Romans 2:2-20 to say that believing Gentiles were spiritual Jews (it is easy from the text to see ‘why’ many Christians believe this about themselves.) that would not change this important fact: Shaul never said that natural Jews were no longer Jews. He only said that the natural Jews were not Jews in this Special, Fuller sense. Just keep reading his letter! After making his point in Rom. 2:28-29 (remember, it is one of the few times in the entire Brit Chadasha that the word Jew is used like this), he goes back to referring to ALL Jews in the normal sense.

If you have any doubt read the next verse!

“What advantage is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? MUCH in EVERY WAY!….” (Rom. 3:1-2)

In other words, since being a Jew outwardly and physically doesn’t guarantee a right relationship with G-d, what’s the advantage in being a Jew, a physically, circumcised, ethnic Jew? Much, in every way, because G-d entrusted His Word to His physical, natural people-the Jews! It really is quite simple. If Shaul was teaching that natural Jews were no longer Jews and that believing Gentiles are not the real Jews, what in the world did he mean in Romans 3:9?

“We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.”

If Jews are not Jews and Gentiles are not Gentiles, what was Shaul trying to to say in Romans 3:29?

“Is G-d the G-d of the Jews only? Is He not the G-d of the Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too.”

And what then would be the meaning of Rom. 15:27 if believing gentiles are now Jews?

“… For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.”

Clearly gentile means gentile and Jew means Jew.
It is one thing to argue that once or twice Shaul used the words “Yisra’el” and “Jew” in a special sense, referring to the whle sh-rch as the “Yisra’el of G-d”, and all believers as “Jews”. (I personally disagree with this, but I certainly wouldn’t call this position dangerous) But it is another thing entirely to turn around and ignore the remaining 268 Brit Chadasha references to “yisra’el” and “jew” and claim that Yisra’el is no longer Yisra’el and Jews are no longer Jews! That most certainly is dangerous.

It is one thing to say, “Shaul used the word ‘circumcision’ in a special sense (Phil. 3:3) to refer to all believers.” It is quite another thing to say, “Those who are physically circumcised on the eigth day are no longer counted as Jews”! Even the book of Dueteronomy recognized two circumcisions; the circumcision of the heart and the physical body.

As basic as this is, later ch-rch interpreters went way beyond the meaning of the Word. First they say, “You see, it is not all who are descended from Yisra’el who are Yisra’el. It is the true believers who are Yisra’el, and we are the true believers. We are Yisra’el! It’s not just believing Jews who are Yisra’el. Everyone who simply believes is Yisra’el too!”

What is so terrible about saying this? Maybe noting so far, but the next step was simply disastrous: “If the ch-rch is spiritual Yisra’el, the new Yisra’el, then there is no need for NATURAL Yisra’el, the OLD Yisra’el anymore. They are no longer the covenant people, we are.”

Allow me to quote just one of THOUSANDS throughout history who have exemplified this attitude:

“All the blessings given to Yisra’el are now ours… forever. As for you Jews, to hell with our cursed race!” (A papal ambassador to Poland during the Holocaust)

But the ch-rch has not cursed Yisra’el. The ch-rch has cursed herself! Shaul’s exhortation must be heard again:

“Do not be arrogant, but be afraid…. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, borthers, so that you may not be conceited.” Rom. 11:20, 25

Look at the strong words Shaul uses: arrogant, ignorant, conceited. What a critically important subject for the ch-rch to understand! Ignorance of G-d’s purposes for Yisra’el breeds conceit. And a conceited ch-rch is a ch-rch resisted by the L-rd, for “G-d opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6

Unfortunately, many in the body today still claim that it is the ch-rch alon who is the true Yisra’el. One well known author has written at length and with great passion saying, “Wake up Ch-rch! You alone are Yisra’el!”

Why don’t we just accept the obvious meaning of the text? Why don’t we just give up all our interpretive gymnastics?

G-d is looking for believers, not acrobats.

Shalom,

Japheth

P.S. Much of the above is borrowed from Michael Brown’s book “Our Hands Are Stained With Blood” chapter 13. I highly recommend this book, but beware, tears will flow as you read the first few chapters. Blessings to all….

[Sandy]

<font color=green>Christianity is THE CHURCH.

You will not find the word "church" in the Greek Scriptures. The word in the Greek Scriptures is "ecclesia" and means "assembly". The word "church" does not mean assembly.

Do you know what CHURCH means?

CHURCH
[< Anglo Saxon circe < West Germanic kirika, < kuriakon (doma), Lord's (house) < kurios, lord]

The CHURCH (the Lord's house) claims that they are Spiritual Israel, thereby usurping and placing themselves over natural Israel and claiming all the promises made to natural Israel for themselves, which they have also spiritualized.

The CHURCH has done away with the Torah (the instructions) of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and replaced it with so called GRACE and FAITH.

The CHURCH has removed the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH and replaced it with Sunday the first day of the week and call it the LORD'S Day (pretty fitting considering the Church is the Lord's house).

The CHURCH has taken away all the SET TIMES/SET FEASTS of <font color=purple>YHUH</font> and replaced them with Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Lent, etc., etc.

The CHURCH has invalidated the Hebrew Scriptures by calling it the Old Testament and replaced it with the so-called New Testament (Greek Scriptures).

The CHURCH gives more honor, praise, glory and credit to the words of Paul than to the words of the Almighty Creator.

The New Testament is the book of the CHURCH whose deity is Iesous/Jesus/Yeshua; In it Iesous makes the claim that he is the light of the world (John 8:12), thereby usurping the role of <font color=purple>YHUH'S</font> servant, the nation of Israel, whom he says will be his light to the nations (Isaiah 42:6, 49:6). </font>

[Spying]

Hi Thummim,

The arguments that I have been hitting you with are not my own. They basically come from the Apostle Paul. I have nothing that is my own. Everything I have, has been given to me. Because you ask me my point, I really am made aware that you do not understand what I am addressing.

I am arguing for eternal inheritance. How does someone own and inherit, whether the inheriting be either yarash or nachal, land eternally? Eternity is a long time. There is nothing that you and I or anyone else can possess in this physical life, in this breath which we now have, and not lose through death. We can't on our own even possess our bodies, which come from the land, eternally, can we? When you look at the wording of the promises to Abraham, and when you examine all the circumstances of his life here on this earth, one can argue like I have argued with you, and like the Apostle Paul has argued, that the promises to Abraham are really about eternal life and the resurrection. That is the point, and that is why I argue so boldly with all those who strive to teach me that the promises to Abraham are fulfilled whenever the physical Jews are gathered to the physical land of Palestine. That everyone is indeed gathered to the physical land of his or her origin occurs in the resurrection when we are all reunited with our bodies (the land of our origin) through Messiah Yahushua. This is a gift from YAHWEH. It is only because of the promises to Abraham and to the Seed, who is Messiah, that you will be given the opportunity to be reunited with your body on a permanent basis. Abraham is the father of many nations, and all these nations have their being in Messiah Yahushua.

Concerning historical Christianity and historical Judaism, I will plainly tell you so that you will know. I view Christianity as a sect of Judaism. Historically, both have suffered at the hand of the other. Both are false religions. Neither know the way or the path, and regardless of their history, both right now are in bed together. The people of YAHWEH are called to come out of them!

Sincerely, Spying

[Thummim]

Hello Spying, Don't the seed of the promise made to Abraham, live on this side of life. The promise is made to the living. While individuals die, the heirs live on. The land belongs to the heirs. The dead have no further use of the land. Are we talking about the land of Israel and it's heirs? I have to question whether anything so caustic to the faith of JEWs as christianity is, can be called a JEWish sect. Many false gods have been served by the children of the inheritance. Sects have formed around these dieties, but does that make them JEWish sects? I think that JEWish means Judism. Also, I must say that I consider christianity a Roman faith. I suppose on this count, we have a draw at best. I know that no other faith is responsible for the death of more JEWs than is christianity. This comes from defiling their name. Except for the JEWish claim on Israel, Only christianity has a charge to levy against the JEWs. Thats why JEWs have faced it's many tragedies surrounded by christians. Why christianity wants to call themselves the brethren of the JEWish people, when they won't even acknowledge their salvation, escapes me. The few JEWs that end up in a christian heaven will find life there, very uncomfortable for themselves. I see no reason for these "saved" christian occupiers of heaven, to suddenly treat JEWs any differently than their faith has throughout their earth bound history. You seem determined to see JEWs christianized. I trust that the salvation of the JEWish soul has already been worked out by YHWH. Their righteousness will be of him. Likely the name of GD will make all JEWs priests of YHWH. (Isa.61:6) This would be so if the JEWish people found out that they are truely attached to the name of YHWH by some priestly mechanism. ....Michael

[Spying]

Hi Simchat_Torah,

Thank you for your kind words, and thank you for bringing your objections to my attention. By doing so, you force me to deal with them. You are going to be a hand full. I saw your other posts, but because they weren't directly directed to me, you left me off the hook. Now, I am going to get my bones picked. Tell you the truth, my bones are worth picking. They are encased in considerable flesh.

Yes, I am, I believe, a physical descendant of Abraham. A long time ago, the least of my great grand dads, was carried away into captivity and slavery because of Sabbath breaking and spiritual drunkenness. I say "Sabbath breaking" because that was the issue which YAHWEH used to bring me to repentance. I say spiritual drunkenness because I have been forced to come to grips with physical drunkenness in my life. These verses in a nutshell inform you concerning the fate of my iniquitous great Granddad many, many years ago:
Lev 26:38-45
38 <font color="990000">And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. </font color>
39 <font color="990000">And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.</font color>
40 <font color="990000">If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; </font color>
41 <font color="990000">And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:</font color>
42 <font color="990000">Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.</font color>
43 <font color="990000">The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.</font color>
44 <font color="990000">And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the YAHWEH their ELOHIM.</font color>
45 <font color="990000">But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their ELOHIM: I am the YAHWEH. </font color>(KJV)The above verses are also descriptive of the mercy that YAHWEH has granted me in my life. I, a Gentile, was brought by YAH to recognize and confess that keeping Sunday as the Sabbath Day was Sabbath breaking. I repented of that sin, and I and my family began to observe the Sabbath. I do not know how many generations of my forefathers pined away in their enemies' lands in Sabbath breaking, but I through the mercy of YAH am a clear break with that past. My uncircumcised heart was humbled, and I fully accept and confess the punishment of my iniquity and the iniquity of my grandfathers through Messiah Yahushua.

There are thousands like me scattered all over the world who are awakening from a fretful sleep to discover their sins and the sins of their fathers. We, Gentiles, are being drawn to the Torah through the spirit of Messiah because YAH is again remembering HIS covenant with HIS people and the sign of that covenant which is the keeping of the Sabbath Day. A great number of us are physical descendants of the House of Israel. You know as well as I that we cannot prove our descent except through the Word of YAHWEH. YAHWEH knows who we are, and that is sufficient for me.

I would have you consider this possibility, Simchat_Torah: If all Jews are indeed not Jews, then it is quite possible that all Gentiles are not Gentiles. Remember Joseph! Were Joseph's sons Israelites or Gentiles?

Sincerely, Spying

[simchat_torah]

You truly have a good heart.

I would stray from calling yourself Jewish, if you truly do not know. But you do have a special place in the kingdom as a righteous gentile. This is not a lesser (or greater) place, for all are equal in His presence. But we all have our specific roles to play out here. I have told others who feel that they ae of Yisra'el to research their heritage. They most likely will find that they do indeed have "Jewish" blood. Maybe so, maybe not. Either way, you do have a special calling as a righteous gentiles, and have ways to reach other gentiles that Jews do not have.

You can also join yourself to Yisra'el through conversion, and would then be recognized as a Jew. This would include the Dam Brit if you were not religiously circumcised (a small prick on the... well you know) for the covenant is made with blood.
But this is only if you truly feel that this is where G-d is calling you.

More later, I've got class now. Shalom,
Japheth